Aerobatics Rating

[jnicholas]

Hi Guys,
Have done some aero's before in a CT-4B/E as well as the super decathlon.

Wanting to do an official "rating" if possible as my brother would really love to go up and do some for the thrill.

I'm just wondering whether this is an experience thing, or whether it is an official rating that gets a little signed sticker in the front of my logbook? Also, how many hours instruction (approx.) does everyone think it would take in something fairly simple at first? i.e citarbria or Super Decathlon?

Cheers

[AMEandCPL]

Why don't you talk to the guy who runs the CT4E. He teaches aeros for a living. You need formal training and an endorsement in your logbook.

[jnicholas]

just doing some prelim investigations before i start doing some calling around. Also, the CT4 is 3 hours away so it's not the most convenient

[in-cog-nito]

Hi there,

As far as hours go for the training, about 7 to 10 if it is done properly. No sticky label but it is a logbook endorsement like your first solo stamp. The prerequisite is a GFPT.

Have a read of CAAP 155 before and during your training. It covers the human factors and air law stuff you need to know.

The Decaf is a good rocket to do your training in and you get a Tailwheel endo as well.

It is a pity that Matt is too far away from you. Very experienced and a nice bloke too. Highly recommended!

Hope you go ahead with the aeros. It really enhances your handling skills, confidence and gives you a much better appreciation of principles of flight. And its the best fun you will have your pants on!
Cheers,
In-cog

[jnicholas]

Thanks for that I will have a read up of those doc's before I kick things off.

It is a shame Matt is so far away, I did some prep work with him before I went on Flight Screening (advanced course = tonnes of aero's!!) for the ADF and it helped like you wouldn't believe! I nailed all aspects of the course and have been fast tracked (was going for ADFA but now been moved to DEO) to OTS with their hopes being for me to end up on the Fast Jets.

So i've really only got 2 months or so to do this and have a bit of fun with it before all the RAAF training starts.

Cheers guys.

[Tarq57]

What types are available nearby?
I did mine in a 152. Not a bad aerobatic trainer, in that the lack of power kind of forces you to use the appropriate finesse on the controls, otherwise you end up spending most of the time climbing back up after each manoeuvre.
Fairly tame, probably one of the cheapest options, there are some manoeuvres you can't really do properly, but a good basic trainer.

[601]

There is no such thing in CAR/CAOs called "aerobatic" :ugh:

[peterc005]

You can get an "aerobatic" endorsement in your log book. You can also get a waiver from CASA to do aerobatics below 3000ft after the initial endorsement.

Contact the Queensland Chapter of the Australian Aerobatic Club:

AACQLD HomePage (http://www.aacqld.com.au/)

Ask for a list of instructors/schools where you can do an aerobatic endorsement.

[Joker89]

Just to make it clear, if I'm stamped for loops rolls etc on ct4b I can only do it on that type and need stamps for Any other type I may wish to do aero's in above 3000?

Nicholas, you have a long way to go, don't get ahead of yourself, pilots course is a different beast to fsp but aim for jets if it's what you want.

[jnicholas]

I read the CAAP 155 earlier today and recall reading somewhere it says that once endorsed the maneuvers aren't restricted to that aircraft type only, however right now I can't find said reference - I will look harder in the morning.

I don't expect the training process for the RAAF to be easy at all, but I am looking forward to it dearly and can not wait to start doing what I have always had the dream of doing.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Have a chat to Gerry Dick at Redcliffe behind Bob Tait.

Citabria, Decathlon, very passionate about his aeros and good reputation.:ok:

[601]

You can get an "aerobatic" endorsement in your log book.

I am sure a good QC would have a field day if the word "aerobatic" is used in a log book endorsement.

[jnicholas]

Hopefully that would go without saying :ugh:

[peterc005]

Happened to have my logbook on the desk.

The stamp reads:

"GENERAL FLYING SERVICES" ... "Acrobatic Endorsement"

It lists "Loops, Barrel Rolls, Stall Turns, Spins, Aileron Rolls"

Signed and dated by the Instructor.

There may not be an "aerobatic endorsement", but there is definitely an "acrobatic endorsement".

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Ah...yes, the basic manoeuvres that form aeros (sorry, acros??).
Yes Peter. We get the point.

Jnicholas,
Nowhere in the rules is the approval type specific, but according to CAAP 155, the approval extends to any aircraft with a strong recommendation that a proficiency check be carried out periodically or in a new type, however, upright and inverted spins must be certified separately.

[601]

but there is definitely an "acrobatic endorsement".

Just as the CARs and CAOs spell it.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

And yet the CAAP doesn't mention "acrobatic" once.

Gotta love consistency.:rolleyes:

ps, 601 does the QC know where a sample of the stamp wording is that says acrobatic? Can't really see that spelling of a word for the purpose of an activity that has such an obvious meaning would invalidate the approval.:confused:

CAR 262AM para 7d(ii).

Yeah, I'm bored.....can you tell?

[metalman2]

I've never actually read the entry in my log book, it says acrobatic, strange that aerobatic is so widely used, any ideas on why the different terms ?

[601]

Can't really see that spelling of a word for the purpose of an activity that has such an obvious meaning would invalidate the approval.

I would not bet my left te***icle on it.

CAR 262AM para 7d(ii).

The legal drafting folk cannot read or do not know their own legislation.:ugh:
CAR 2(1) "acrobatic flight"

[tail wheel]

aer·o·bat·ics
noun
1. ( used with a plural verb ) stunts performed in flight by an airplane, glider, or the like.

2. ( used with a singular verb ) the art or technique of performing such stunts.

Related forms
aer·o·bat·ic, adjective


ac·ro·bat·ic   
adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or like an acrobat or acrobatics.

2. having the good balance, agility, and coordination of an acrobat.

Curious? I suspect the term "acrobatic" is used due to being an adjective, as in "acrobatic endorsement", whilst "aerobatic" is a noun?

I guess the holder of an acrobatic endorsement is authorised to perform aerobatics?

[djpil]

Must be nearly 100 years ago that the term "aerial acrobatics" was shortened to "aerobatics" in the vernacular.
And, yes, the CAAP does explain it all and the word "acrobatic" appears often.

[601]

These Regulations are the Civil Aviation Regulations 1988.

2 Interpretation

(1) In these Regulations, unless the contrary intention appears:

acrobatic flight means manoeuvres intentionally performed by an aircraft involving an abrupt change in its attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an abnormal variation in speed.

This is the one that counts.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Thanks djpil.

Yeah, I'd put a nut on it.

CAR 2 only interprets the words as they are used in the regs.

CAAP 155
Definitions, first paragraph

2.1.1 Current regulations refer to 'acrobatic flight', however 'aerobatics' is a more specific term which is in widespread use and will be used in the proposed new CASRs Parts 91 (General Operating and Flight Rules) and 61 (Flight Crew Licensing). Therefore this CAAP will use the term 'aerobatics' in relation to 'acrobatic flight'.

The times they are a changin'
:cool:

[Mark1234]

acrobatic flight means manoeuvres intentionally performed by an aircraft involving an abrupt change in its attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an abnormal variation in speed.Seems to me the only thing defined there is an abrupt change in altitude. Being inverted etc is an entirely normal attitude, is it not? :E

[osmosis]

Q. How many shiny bum legal professionals does it take to make a regulation?

A. As many as it takes to make it confusing.

(look anywhere you like for your evidence)

[601]

CAAPs are not law. The CARs are. Big difference.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Mark,

Straight up and down reply,

CAR 155 Para 2
For the purposes of subregulation (1), straight and steady stalls or turns in which the angle of bank does not exceed 60 degrees shall be deemed not to be acrobatic flight.

FAR's go one further and include 30 degrees of pitch attitude.

Amused reply,

Is there a definition for retentive in there?:}

601, did I say the quote was law? No.
Read the content. I've still got that nut out.:E