Libya Credit?

[Finningley Boy]

Gentlemen,

I couldn't help notice the visit by the Chief of Defence Staff to the R.N. Ship from which the Apaches flew operations over Libya. I might be a tad paranoid, but given the much publicised claims by various pundits over the the last 5 years or so about the need to dismiss the Junior Service, and now we have a situation arise for which they were very much to the fore, could it be objected that this is an attempt, part intentionally, to upstage the R.A.F.'s wee contribution the Libya "No Fly Zone"? :suspect:

FB:)

[Evalu8ter]

Hmm, and didn't the RAF have the blinged-up day at Waddington with the Deputy Prime Minister saying "those of you that have done well..." - albeit the AH was there too.

I think it's quite fitting that CDS makes a fuss of Ocean; to leave home for 7 weeks and return 7 months later is a hard ask. BZ Ocean and her crew.

[Roadster280]

I couldn't help notice the visit by the Chief of Defence Staff to the R.N. Ship from which the Apaches flew operations over Libya. I might be a tad paranoid, but given the much publicised claims by various pundits over the the last 5 years or so about the need to dismiss the Junior Service, and now we have a situation arise for which they were very much to the fore, could it be objected that this is an attempt, part intentionally, to upstage the R.A.F.'s wee contribution the Libya "No Fly Zone"?

I'd say it was a case of CDS out to visit the troops on the way home and say "well done". Anything more than that is paranoia.

Jeez, even when dishing out back slaps, they're viewed a a recce for future knife strikes. If CDS (or other VSO) hadn't gone to say BZ, the claims would be "Our Boys Get No Thanks From Top Brass".

[Finningley Boy]

Well I thought I might be a little paranoid about it, but that's because of all the anti-light blue chit chat from from various people up to the SDSR, also, nobody outside the R.A.F. camp appear to be best please that the air staff selected the Harrier, out of the three possible candidates, for the retirement clock.:confused:

FB:)

[Roadster280]

"Dear Mr Chancellor. Please can we have a boat load of Typhoons, a slack handful of part time A330s, A400Ms if we must, and f*** everybody else" might have had something to do with the situation you're reporting.

However, I really do think CDS went to say hi to the chaps and chapesses and that's all there is to it.

[orca]

If one were to turn this on its head the PM himself only thanked 'aircrew and air staffs' when Ellamy was curtailed. A little blinkered if one were to be paranoid from another service's perspective.

[FODPlod]

Some redress for the PM visiting the hotel-accommodated RAF personnel at GdC and blanking all of the ships on the firing line perhaps?

Or simply a small token of appreciation from the top man in uniform towards service personnel who sailed for seven weeks but ended up spending nearly eight months deployed on top of the seven months they were away from home last year?

Your choice. Either way, it was good to see.

[TheWizard]

Great work FB
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/merlinmagic28/fisherman_boat.gif

[Finningley Boy]

I thought I might draw some flack for this, but I've regarded Sir David as someone who considers air power something which existed purely to fight Russians with, up to and no further than 1990. I recall his speech reported in the Daily Telegraph, all about counter-insurgency warfare and the need to concentrate on the land capability. Air support according to the General would be best suited if provided by Super Tucano! Or something along those lines.

As for the comment from Roadster about Typhoons, A330s and A400s, just think how many we could afford if it wasn't for the never never Aircraft Carriers currently being processed, simply to save wasting anymore money, in order to mothball one of them.

But to be honest, I think it is an apalling state of affairs that we're bickering over what are really the standard capabilities of a frontline Navy, Army and Air Force. I wouldn't bat an eyelid were this in the wake of any such campaign which took place prior to the beginning of operations in Afghanistan, in earnest. But thanks to the last government's desire to get stuck in abroad, as it were, but with no intention of affording due priority of resources to such antics, unhelpful remarks from khaki and dark blue senior officers, have become common place since. They've been scrambling for resources which have been denied rather than have never been there.

That's the reason why I may have looked to deeply into what would otherwise pass as far more routine.

FB:)

[Bill Macgillivray]

Gentlemen, do we really need to be thanked for doing the job? I would suggest that it is only a political thrust by MP's to be seen as "pro-service" to the general public. We have been doing the "dirty work" for many, many years without all the publicity that is now apparent - no problem! Maybe I am out of date in my thinking (my age is correct!) but I feel there is a "double edged" sword being forged. Hope I am wrong.:hmm::hmm:

[Roadster280]

It's not the Typhoons or AT. It's the disservice to the Navy with the binning of Nimrod and Harrier.

Not that the Navy helped their own case with slashing their fleet to get the two carriers, but even so, they've been shafted.

I say this as a retired soldier. I have no axe to grind on behalf of the Navy, just an onlooker distressed by the whole thing. SDSR was just a disgrace, brought on by years of Labour mis"management".

I do think the visit by CDS was nothing more than what it says on the tin though.

[Finningley Boy]

Roadster,

I'm happy to accept that and agree a 1000% with what you say.. Indeed, Nimrod and Harrier shouldn't have gone and because of Blair's placing the Armed Forces on a Lion footing while GordonBrown provided House Cat funding we're where we are and now the current lot are blaming a Debt and Deficit for why even more has to sliced off, as if the military frontline hasn't made its contribution to deficit reduction over the last 14 years.

FB:)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

37 years in tells me that anyone seeing anything more than "glad handing" in a senior officers visit is really in need of therapy..............great fishing trip FB :ok:

[Finningley Boy]

Ok,

I'm starting to get a sense of my acute paranoia now!:oh:

FB:)

[helidriver]

CDS visited Ocean after attending the opening of the Muscat Opera House. The visit to Ocean was coincidental and only lasted an hour before CDS went onwards to the UK. The RN have a very efficient media team therefore much was made of the visit however most of the praise that day was directed at HMS Ocean and not the Apache contingent.

What I find remarkable is that FB feels that the Op ELLAMY contribution by the RAF was overshadowed by this CDS visit. Every strike shown by the media had a RAF banner attached and the MOD website was largely saturated with RAF media representation. I can only remember 2 media clips showing AH engagements after nearly 30 missions.

Single service pettiness is not at all helpful during these fiscally challenging times. We should protect capability and the resultant effect across the 3 services. It should be remembered that the fast air and AH capability and effect are different without competing budgets.

Let us not self-destruct from paranoia.

[Finningley Boy]

Army chief General Sir David Richards says ships and jets no longer the answer | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/sep/17/general-sir-david-richards-speech)

That's exactly my point Helidriver, but CDS started it when he first became CGS!:{

FB:)

[Finningley Boy]

International Institute for Strategic Studies Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton Address (http://www.iiss.org/recent-key-addresses/air-chief-marshal-sir-stephen-dalton/)

Here's the speech from Sir Stephen Dalton around the same time.:ok:

FB:)

[Armarsh24]

It's a shame that y'all were told only a 7 week exercise then ended up being out at sea for over 7 months. It was however a pleasure serving with a bunch of the folks on the HMS Ocean when we were on board towards the end of the conflict (mid-to late September). I definitely loved being on the HMS Ocean... what an experience!

[passpartout]

Helidriver said,

"What I find remarkable is that FB feels that the Op ELLAMY contribution by the RAF was overshadowed by this CDS visit. Every strike shown by the media had a RAF banner attached and the MOD website was largely saturated with RAF media representation. I can only remember 2 media clips showing AH engagements after nearly 30 missions."

Thirty missions? Yep, thanks for coming....

[helidriver]

30 missions at 100' versus 100 at 30,000' - Well done you!

[BS Alert]

BZ to Ocean and the Apache/60's.

That said, and I appreciate that this might be thread drift but, did we really need to put utilze Apache? I know the boys and girls did an awesome job, I just question the operational need and I suspect that, had we not put them in harms way, the end result would have still been the same.

I clearly have the benefit of hindsight.

[FODPlod]

If ASaCs and attack helos had been deployed much earlier in the campaign to monitor and block the ability of PGF (Pro Gaddafi Forces) to move along the coastal highway with almost total impunity, I suspect much misery could have been avoided in and around Benghazi, Misrata, Ras Lanuf, Ajdabiya, Brega and other rebel enclaves. Once the PGF embedded themselves inside the towns, they became far more difficult (and more costly in civilian lives) to wheedle out.

[orca]

At about the half way stage Libya was (in my opinion, and yes - I was there) about to become a demonstration of the limitations of air. Operating above the threat, and without a land component, the FW masters had done a great job, but hadn't brought the dictator to book. Neither had the naval blockade.

Something had to be done, primarily to get the anti-Ghad moving by attacking specific target sets and by adding an unquantifiable psychological factor to the campaign. Cue integration of sea based AH into the air plan by France and UK.

In my opinion air power enthuisiasts owe the AH (or rather the integration of AH into the air campaign) a larger vote of thanks than most realise.

Of course, we are all sound military types, have operated FW/RW in Afghanistan for years now, are not given to bitching and all know it's a team game with each playing their own (little) part. The team did very well.

[Fire 'n' Forget]

Apache was a massive government PR exercise not a lot else, in AH terms the French were far more offensive and productive.

The Apaches didn't fly often for days, and would only go if the boat was particurarly close to the coast (understandable). The French were flying a heck of a lot more day and night.

Apache is doing a fantastic job elsewhere there was no need for it in Libya.

French Numbers from Libya (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3Ab32f618e-2261-47f7-98a6-eca780a1412a)

[Widger]

Fire n Forget,

and would only go if the boat was particurarly close to the coast (understandable)

The reason 'the boat' would be close to the coast would be to launch the aircraft, not the other way round with the aircraft launching because they were close to the coast.

The inclusion of Apache in Ellamy had a lot more to do with reasons other that political PR and there WAS a need for it in Libya. You may well have gained some insight from the ATO sat in either the CAOC/E3/Akrotiri or back at Scampton/Boulmer but there were significant strategic reasons for the inclusion of both Apache and SKAsACs as part of the tri-service and international effort.

I am sure that you will come back to denigrate the efforts of the whole team onboard Ocean, including the AAC and the other assets in the area as you seem to do in every post you make on Pprune. The world does not revolve around scopies!

[Chicken Leg]

You Crabs really don't help yourselves, do you??!!

Threads like this just go to show why the other two services generally regard you as they do.

Help us to help you boys and girls!!

[Odigron]

Chicken,

Concur, Crabs have little confidence in their own ability/service and resort to threads like this that highlight an inferiority complex.

For what it's worth, the 3 services each bring something to the party and each have great strengths.

Current hard times are, however, causing a significant increase in in-fighting! Shame!!

[Easy Street]

Fodplod,

If ASaCs and attack helos had been deployed much earlier in the campaign to monitor and block the ability of PGF (Pro Gaddafi Forces) to move along the coastal highway with almost total impunity, I suspect much misery could have been avoided in and around Benghazi [etc]There's a couple of problems with that assessment - firstly, PGF were already in the area of Ajdabiyah etc at the start of the campaign (PGF were, after all, the bona fide Libyan armed forces at that point). Secondly, many PGF troop movements in response to the nascent uprising happened before the UNSCR - and regardless of Gadaffi's vile rhetoric, those troop movements again represented sovereign state business until such time as UNSCR 1973 had been passed. Naval airpower has some diplomatic advantages but intervening ahead of a UNSCR isn't one of them! When the surprisingly quick flurry of diplomatic activity ahead of 1973 was completed, it was the inherent speed of response of fast air from France, the US and UK from European MOBs that helped stop PGF advancing into Benghazi - it would have taken significant foresight to have prepositioned a LPH full of deck-trained AH to be ready in the same timescale.

As regards the situation around Misrata, you have a point in that interdiction of siege forces was an ideal use of AH. However the threat there was of such magnitude that the FW boys, operating above the MANPAD envelope, could observe at leisure and engage whenever necessary during a long on-station time - a luxury not available to AH crews at the time. ASaCs (or indeed Sentinel, which did the same job over the whole of Libya, not just the coast) can only get an AH or FJ sensor into roughly the right area and some time is required to turn this into an engagement, not my idea of fun on a moonlit night with some modern MANPADs around.

odigron!
Crabs have little confidence in their own ability/serviceAu contraire, I think you'll find most Crabs currently very proud of a job well done (and not in a supporting role, for a change). Hurrah!

[FODPlod]

...As regards the situation around Misrata, you have a point in that interdiction of siege forces was an ideal use of AH. However the threat there was of such magnitude that the FW boys, operating above the MANPAD envelope, could observe at leisure and engage whenever necessary during a long on-station time - a luxury not available to AH crews at the time...

If that was the case, I'd be interested in your explanation for this:Rebels Claim To Hold Misrata After Two Month-Siege (http://www.npr.org/2011/04/25/135711169/rebels-claim-to-hold-misrata-after-two-month-siege)

NEAL CONAN, host: There are reports of heavy shelling by forces loyal to Libyan President Moammar Gadhafi in the town of Misrata today, even though rebels say they have pushed back Gadhafi's forces. Marie Colvin is foreign affairs correspondent for the London Sunday Times. She's in Misrata and joins us now on the phone from there. Nice to talk to you again.

Ms. MARIE COLVIN (Middle East Correspondent, The Sunday Times, London): Hi there.

CONAN: Can you tell us what's happening in Misrata today?

Ms. COLVIN: Yes. There's been a dramatic change in the siege of Misrata and for the worst. I mean, we've seen over the last week rebels fighting the Libyan forces along Tripoli Street, which is the main boulevard through Misrata. And when I say rebels, I mean the rebel army is shopkeepers, engineers, car mechanics and most of them haven't seen a gun until about a month ago. They've been battling Gadhafi's forces along Tripoli Street, kind of shoving them west in very brutal, bloody battles. Those ended last night when they kicked out the last of Gadhafi's men. Their last base was a hospital that the rebels took; just pounded it and a house that they had hidden in.

So what happened today was both - I think it was revenge. We started seeing shelling from afar. So there were no longer Gadhafi forces inside Misrata. We are being shelled from afar. So there were no longer Gadhafi forces inside Misrata. We are being shelled from afar. All of the neighborhoods hit today were civilian. All of the casualties and dead were civilian. I was seeing old ladies coming in, the youngest victim, eight years old. He's in a refrigerator truck just 10 yards away from where I'm standing. They were shelling. And again, there are - we are besieged from - three sides of Misrata are besieged. And we have the sea - you know, at our backs. So there's no way for people to get out.

CONAN: And...

Ms. COLVIN: The shelling is coming from Grad missiles about 20 miles away and artillery about 12 miles away. And they're just pounding it into civilian neighborhoods.

CONAN: And, Marie Colvin, if rocket launchers and artillery pieces are outside of Misrata, they are, by definition, in open areas where, presumably, they can be seen by NATO aircraft. Any sign of NATO aircraft?

Ms. COLVIN: Absolutely none. And that is what is being asked by everyone here, I have to say, including myself. There has to be a heat signature. There has to be something you can see. These are big missiles coming in. The Grads are 12 pounds. They're punching through concrete roofs. I saw one house today, two of them went right through the roof. The little eight-year-old boy was just - the aunt was killed inside. He was killed as he ran outside trying to get into the family car. Another missile hit that car. They leave huge, I would say, three-foot by three-foot circumference holes. So you have to be able to see them.

And we don' know why NATO planes are not hitting because they come absolutely come under the definition of the U.N. Security Council 1973, protect civilians. Civilians are dying here. The only sign we've seen of a NATO strike was on the faculty of science, where Gadhafi soldiers were holed up four days ago. They left four days ago. That was hit last night. It's empty, luckily...

Cameron first mooted military action against Libya in the House of Commons on 28 Feb (link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8352954/Libya-Cameron-proposes-no-fly-zone-to-protect-Libyan-people-from-attacks-by-Gaddafi-loyalists.html)). Any government with foresight would have deployed a fully tooled-up carrier if available or, failing that, an LPD with AH at the same time as the SSNs with TLAMs. It could easily have been in situ by the beginning of April. We sailed an entire task force to the Falklands within ten days.

[Fire 'n' Forget]

Widger

significant strategic reasons for the inclusion of both Apache and SKAsACs as part of the tri-service and international effort.

Really? SKAsACs was a useful asset, the AH was definatly more political than required for effect. However they were deployed and showed that they are adaptable and tbh, brave down low in that AOR when the sides were 'fluid'

I will let you carry on getting all your information 2nd/3rd hand from websites/newspapers.

And FYI I have respect for all serving, however the 'retired' 'experts' that have a point of view as narrow as Nelsons looking glass leave a lot to be desired :8

[Widger]

Fire and Forget,

You are the master of the Waaaahhh!! So I will bite!

I am sure I have probably met you!

You are making the error of attacking the person rather than the argument. Yes I am retired, but only since June. I was right in the thick of it from the start of Op ELLAMY and I know A LOT, first hand, about the deployment of most of the assets used in that campaign, including the UK E3 component.

There were strategic and tactical reasons for the deployment and extension of many of the assets involved in OP ELLAMY and I was involved in the debates/briefing/decisions of many, including R1, Sentinel, E3, HMS Cumberland, several issues surrounding rear support and on the periphery of Apache and SKASaC. You are wrong in your view that the deployment of Apache was for PR or purely political purposes. There were other more important considerations. In the words of Sylvester Stallone....'You don't know man cos you weren't there!'

With regard to narrow minded views, I do not know what the RN has ever done to you (failed flying grading did you?) but almost every post you have put on Pprune is about taking a swipe at your sister Service. As a Scopie, you will have had ample opportunity to work with the other services, including the RN so it would do you the world of good to get some wider Service education at Swindon and then spend some time in an exchange post and then you might learn a little more about the contribution of the other Services to Military Tasks and Defence Strategic Direction, rather than thinking that Defence of the UK (Airpower) is the totaility of what the MOD does.

Being an ex NATO grade 1 controller myself and having served served in both GW1 and Op Deny Flight as one, I understand the pride of being a qualified Freddie but I also had the humility to understand the benefits that the other services brought to the show. Your juvenile sniping does you or your Service no credit whatsoever. You quite clearly have NO respect for all those serving as your attitude is clear for all to see in your posts since the mid 2000s when you probably joined up!

[wokkamate]

BZ to the Ocean, and a nice You Tube Video too!

As for Super-Tucano CAS - why not? Would be awesome; fast, cheap, good load out, manoueverable etc etc.

The RAF News, or maybe it was Soldier Magazine, did a feature on the JTACs top 10 CAS assets. Guess where the mighty GR4 came?

No 1 was the AC-130 (no suprises there). :ok:

[Easy Street]

As for Super-Tucano CAS - why not?Because it would be no use for anything except CAS in a smallish area such as Helmandshire, and we can't really afford single-role platforms any more. What we have already does the job. If it wasn't doing the job, there would be grounds for buying something new, but until then...

[Chicken Leg]

and we can't really afford single-role platforms any more.

But they don't have to be single role. Check our this bad boy:

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