Sundance heli down / Nevada

[MikeNYC]

5 dead in Lake Mead helicopter crash - FOX5 Vegas - KVVU (http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/16213924/rep) :

LAS VEGAS (FOX5) -
Update: The National Park Service says every person who was on board the helicopter that crashed near Lake Mead, four passengers and a pilot, has perished.

A spokesperson with Sundance Helicopters tells FOX5 the helicopter was taking a tour of Hoover Dam and heading back.

A spokesperson from the FAA, Ian Gregor, tells FOX5 the downed helicopter is believed to be an Aerospatiale AS350 and that the crash occurred around 5 p.m. It's still unknown what brought the aircraft down. The FAA and NTSB will investigate.

Link: Picture of the helicopter that crashed.

Police say a number of people reported seeing smoke in an area south of Callville Marina. Pilots reported seeing smoke and what appears to be wreckage in the area. The crash site is in a ravine, making access by emergency crews difficult.

FOX5 has a crew en on the scene and will have updated information as it becomes available.

Very sad to hear.

[Gordy]

Thoughts go to the families. Hopefully we will learn more tomorrow.

[VH-XXX]

I'm in Vegas right now and was over Mead yesterday, perfect weather for the last few days, must have been something catastrophic. Shocking place to go down within a few miles of the wall.

[paddyboy]

Sundance flew me out to the canyon in September. Lovely people and a professional outfit.

Thoughts and condolences to all.

[mdwatkins]

JetPhotos.Net Photo » N37SH (CN: 2300) Private Eurocopter AS 350B2 Ecureuil by DNA (http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6589002&nseq=0)
Photos: Eurocopter AS-350B-2 Ecureuil Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Sundance/Eurocopter-AS-350B-2-Ecureuil/1942906/L/)


If the FOX report is correct this is the AS 350 B2 that was involved.

[Soave_Pilot]

Teams to recover bodies of 5 killed in Las Vegas tour helicopter crash near Lake Mead - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/tour-helicopter-from-las-vegas-believed-to-have-crashed-near-lake-mead/2011/12/07/gIQAyFNodO_story.html)

[darrenphughes]

Crash Helicopter had Engine, main, & tail servo work done the day before. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/couple-killed-in-helicopter-crash-outside-las-vegas-were-celebrating-25th-marriage-anniversary/2011/12/09/gIQAKeHPhO_story.html)

Obviously, that may not have anything to do with the accident, but something tells me, it's going to be a rough number of months for the A&P(s) who done the work to that machine, while they wait for the NTSB report.

On another note, I worked with Landon for a while back about 4 years ago. He was a great guy, and funny too. He went out of his way to help me out a lot when I started the job. RIP buddy.

[Aser]

NTSB Identification: DCA12MA020
Nonscheduled 14 CFR Part 135: Air Taxi & Commuter
Accident occurred Wednesday, December 07, 2011 in Las Vegas, NV
Aircraft: EUROCOPTER FRANCE AS350B2, registration: N37SH
Injuries: 5 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On December 7, 2011 at 1630 Pacific Standard Time, a Eurocopter AS350-B2, registration N37SH, operated by Sundance Helicopters as flight Landmark 57, crashed in mountainous terrain approximately 14 miles east of Las Vegas, Nevada. The 14 CFR Part 135 flight was a tourist sightseeing flight, which departed from Las Vegas McCarren International Airport (LAS), Las Vegas, NV, intending to fly to the Hoover Dam area and return to LAS, operating under visual flight rules. The helicopter impacted in a narrow ravine in mountainous terrain between the city of Henderson and Lake Mead. The pilot and four passengers were fatally injured, and the helicopter was substantially damaged by impact forces and post-crash fire. Weather was reported as clear with good visibility and dusk light conditions.

Radar data obtained from the FAA show that the helicopter departed LAS and followed a normal route of flight easterly out of the LAS airport traffic area, then turned to the southeast toward Hoover Dam. Tour routings are standardized for all the area tour operators. The helicopter was level at 3,500 feet mean sea level (MSL) at approximately 120 knots. About one minute prior to the accident, the radar indicated the helicopter climbed to 4,100 feet MSL and turned about 90 degrees to the left. The left turn and climb are not part of the normal route. Radar then indicated the helicopter descended to 3,300 feet MSL and tracked a northeasterly course for about 20 seconds, until entering a left turn then a descent. The last radar target received was about 1/8 miles from the accident site.DCA12MA020 (http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20111208X52528&key=1)

Rip :(

[turboshaft]

As usual, some are too impatient to wait for the NTSB to do their job: Engine Problems Likely In Lake Mead Helicopter Cash That Took Five Lives (http://avstop.com/news_december_2011/engine_problems_likely_in_lake_mead_helicopter_crash_that_to ok_five_lives.htm). :ugh:

[Gordy]

Does not sound like engine to me....

Based upon the "reported" information....Sounds like a hydraulic failure, or some form of TR failure that got away from him.

About one minute prior to the accident, the radar indicated the helicopter climbed to 4,100 feet MSL and turned about 90 degrees to the left. The left turn and climb are not part of the normal route. Radar then indicated the helicopter descended to 3,300 feet MSL and tracked a northeasterly course for about 20 seconds, until entering a left turn then a descent.


Initial examination of the engine at the scene showed the engine was producing power at the time of the crash. All the servo-actuators, were removed from the wreckage on Friday and will be examined by the FAA and NTSB.

[EN48]

This report Vegas tour helicopter climbed, turned before crashing, NTSB says - latimes.com (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/12/vegas-helicopter-crash-hoover-dam-ntsb.html) states that significant maintenance was performed on the helicopter the day before the flight. Draw what conclusions you wish. I regard myself as a test pilot on the first few flights after any significant maintenance and do not carry pax until I have at least an hour or two on the helo following maintenance.

[darrenphughes]

I regard myself as a test pilot on the first few flights after any significant maintenance and do not carry pax until I have at least an hour or two on the helo following maintenance.

There's not too many passenger carrying companies that'll let you fly around without paying pax for an hour or 2 after maintenance is completed. Once round the pattern or a repo to pick up pax is all I've ever been approved to do on Ops check flights.

[EN48]

Once round the pattern or a repo to pick up pax is all I've ever been approved to do on Ops check flights.

IMHO, someone up the line is making an economic tradeoff. Perhaps an occasional accident/fatality is considered to be a cost of doing business.

The amount of test flying after maintenence should, of course, be related to the nature/extent of the work performed. In this case, reports state an engine change and control systems components replaced. In human terms, a heart transplant equivalent. More than once around the patch would seem to be in order.

In 45 years of flying, only a few anxious moments due to mechanical issues, but most of these on an early flight after maintenance, so I am motivated to see that its been done right.

[Gordy]

There's not too many passenger carrying companies that'll let you fly around without paying pax for an hour or 2 after maintenance is completed. Once round the pattern or a repo to pick up pax is all I've ever been approved to do on Ops check flights.

Agree 100% Unless there is a minimum amount of time specified in the MX manual, at which point I will fly that amount of time. With a decent SMS program and quality maintenance department I see no reason to do any more.

My mechanics always fly with me for the mx test flight also----if they refuse to go, (which has never happened btw), then I will not fly it.

[darrenphughes]

My mechanics always fly with me for the mx test flight also----if they refuse to go, (which has never happened btw), then I will not fly it.

I've done that one also, mainly after major work had been done. Just an added piece of mind.

[SASless]

Gordy is absolutely correct on this......turn the wrench and ride the ride!

That has been my rule since 1968....when all of our maintenance teams doing major inspections on Chinooks in Vietnam rode the wagon upon returning the aircraft to service. On more than one occasion I have seen one of them decide to take a second look at something before climbing into the passenger seat.

As my least favorite President of all time frequently states...."One must have some skin in the game!"

[EN48]

......turn the wrench and ride the ride!



I too agree with this approach but it may be more of a quaint, symbolic gesture rather than an effective means of preventing maintenance errors. The guys turning the wrenches are human and make mistakes too (although perhaps not as many as pilots). Ridng along on the first flight is no guarantee of error free maintenance work. And, if one reads enough accident reports, it becomes evident that some maintenence errors do not manifest themselves in the first short flight or two.

[darrenphughes]

It may not guarantee less mistakes but it will make them more cautios while they work if they know that they'll probably be riding along on the first flight after the work is done. This would imply less mistakes.

[Shell Management]

It may not guarantee less mistakes but it will make them more cautios while they work if they know that they'll probably be riding along on the first flight after the work is done. This would imply less mistakes.

So that would mean that pilots hardly make any mistakes? What utter tosh!

As a human factors expert well versed in the art and science of error I can assure you that is not the case. For example there is no evidence that more errors happen to operators of unmanned(unpeopled?) aircraft than piloted vehcles. In fact, the ability to do effective compliance monitoring on the ground means errors are less likely.

[darrenphughes]

What utter tosh!

Nice!

So we're all wrong for wanting the mechanics to ride along on those flight ops checks, Mr Expert?

I would argue that a lot of the mistakes you see pilots make are down to falling behind the aircraft due to high work load during particularly busy phases of flight, rather than complacency or not giving a crap.

If a mechanic has to ride along, he's gonna give more of a crap, plain and simple, Mr. Expert!

[the coyote]

Just a tad of thread creep going on?

[topendtorque]

Just a tad of thread creep going on?

Perhaps, but most surprising to hear SM labled as an expert, wonder if the labler is using the oz vernicular, as in Ex as a has been and a Spirt as a drip under pressure??

Heard someone labled as a 'has been' the other day, but a mate of mine disputed that strongly by saying that he was never a 'has been' but always a 'never been' that useless B.

chgeers tet

[SASless]

As a human factors expert well versed in the art and science of error I can assure you that is not the case. For example there is no evidence that more errors happen to operators of unmanned(unpeopled?) aircraft than piloted vehcles. In fact, the ability to do effective compliance monitoring on the ground means errors are less likely.



Without being personally insulting here.....being considered an expert should rely upon others making that decision and that it be based upon great familiarity with the "Expert's" work, education, training, professional acumen, and demonstrated abilities.

Pard' you ain't there yet by a long shot in this forum.


An Engineering Ride Along program is no guarantee against mistakes being made, discovered, or prevented.....but at least it does leverage the result in a beneficial direction. The instant a Wrench refuses to ride in an aircraft he works on....his professional reputation is damaged beyond repair with the Pilots whose lives they put in his hands.

What human relationship can prosper without "Trust"?

[vfr440]

Spot on SAS - tell him like it is :ok:
I teach HF amongst other technical things, and I would never be so pompous as to call myself expert. Competent, I would like to think so, bit the definition of expert is not something accords one's self.

Oh and BTW, I ALWAYS go on check rides - to ensure no-one screws up my labours-of-love :O - VFR

PS Happy Christmas to one and all :D

[SASless]

The best Engineers/Mechanics I know....merely lend their aircraft to a Pilot and take huge pride in their work.

One account....walked into the hangar just past 0400...with the sole intent of making a pot of coffee and reading the morning paper before starting the shift at 0600. Scared heck out of the Engineer who was touching up wee tiny scratches in the paint.

That is dedication....not merely doing the touch up work...but doing it in the middle of the night when he was on Salary and not a time clock. To say his aircraft was pretty...neat...spic and span...was an understatement. In return for him providing us with a gorgeous helicopter to fly....we took care of it for him by keeping it clean and polishing the thing like it our new car.

No oil leaks, seeps, or drips on that bird....one could eat off the engine deck...(it was cleaner than my kitchen table!)

[Brian Abraham]

As a human factors expert well versed in the art and science of error

Verne Troyer - No You're Not - YouTube

[oibal60]

For those of us who flew with him (me included) – consider yourselves ‘cyber-hugged’.
I’m sure he’s in all our prayers.


My first instructor Mike Conti – back in 2009 – had organized a lesson for me with Landon. Landon had organized the lesson, _not_ at KISP (Islip, Long Island) but, rather, out at Republic airport! (KFRG). Some friend of his had a brand new R-22 and I was to meet ‘them’ at some funky hangar. So I drove there, arrived at the parking lot and waited. Landon showed up in a pickup-truck and we then drove to the funky hangar. The pickup truck looked like it had gone over every mountain in the state of Utah.

I think I had about 15 hours at the time, and was very much a space-cadet at the controls. Landon didn’t mind and after he maneuvered it clear of the hangars, let me fly it out and away from KFRG – to the south shore for some airwork and some confined area ops.
This being a brand new R22 – jeebus – it was like driving a brand new car. It was tight, pleasant to fly, didn’t shake or rattle or groan – in comparison to the R-22's I was taking lessons in. As is always the case when you are flying with a new CFI -- and esp. in the narrow confines of an R-22 cockpit! -- I was very tense, but HE was so relaxed (yet plainly very expert) that the lesson was an absolute pleasure. He even showed me how to hold the cyclic so that the back of my hand wouldn't go numb (which it often did.)

I remember THAT lesson like it was yesterday, and, yesterday, as I revisited the page in my logbook where that flight was recorded, when I looked at his signature – I just took a long pause, and sighed.

I have no doubt this 'event' was 'unexpected' and I've no doubt he did his effing best - right to the last second - to save the lives of his passengers.

:-(

Gerry

[Shell Management]

It seems the lawyers are doing an All the Presidents Men:
Sundance Tour Helicopter Crash at Las Vegas and the AStar Hydraulic System : Aviation Law Monitor (http://www.aviationlawmonitor.com/2011/12/articles/tour-industry/sundance-tour-helicopter-crash-at-las-vegas-and-the-astar-hydraulic-system/):yuk:

[grumpytroll]

According to the United States National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), fatigue-related maintenance error was the probable cause of a Sundance Helicopters crash that killed five people in 2011.


In a meeting webcast live on Jan. 29, the NTSB determined that disconnection of the fore-aft servo control rod — most likely due to a missing safety pin and the improper reuse of a degraded self-locking nut — caused the crash of a Eurocopter AS350 B2 near Henderson, Nev. on Dec. 7, 2011. The NTSB also determined that the mechanic and inspector who performed maintenance on the helicopter shortly before the accident were suffering from fatigue at the time, making fatigue a contributing factor to the maintenance errors.


The crash occurred during a twilight scenic tour with four passengers on board: a newlywed couple from India, and a Kansas couple celebrating their 25th wedding anniversary. The helicopter departed McCarran International Airport in Las Vegas shortly before 4:30 p.m. local time, bound for the Hoover Dam.


The helicopter followed an established tour route until it was approximately 14 miles east of Las Vegas, at which point it began an abnormal left turn and climb, followed by a left turn and descent, according to radar data. It impacted the ground in mountainous terrain between Henderson and Lake Mead, killing the pilot and all passengers.


The pilot did not make any intelligible radio calls before the crash, and there was no cockpit voice recorder or flight data recorder on board the helicopter. According to NTSB chairman Deborah Hersman, investigators engaged in “a painstaking, deliberative investigation” that “ultimately led to the hangar floor” with the conclusion that improper maintenance was the cause of the fatal crash.


The NTSB found that, prior to the accident, Sundance Helicopters maintenance had been re-using degraded self-locking nuts that no longer met manufacturer specifications (although Sundance inspected its helicopters and corrected this practice shortly after the 2011 crash). Even so, according to investigator-in-charge Bill English, the disconnection of the control rod might have been prevented had a safety cotter pin been properly installed. However, neither the inspector who signed off on the maintenance, nor the pilot who performed a maintenance check flight of the aircraft before it returned to service, noticed the absence of the pin that investigators concluded had to be missing.http://verticalmag.com/news/article_files/154706459026784.jpg

-More on Vertical website-

[pilot and apprentice]

Nice!

So we're all wrong for wanting the mechanics to ride along on those flight ops checks, Mr Expert?

I would argue that a lot of the mistakes you see pilots make are down to falling behind the aircraft due to high work load during particularly busy phases of flight, rather than complacency or not giving a crap.

If a mechanic has to ride along, he's gonna give more of a crap, plain and simple, Mr. Expert!

If think you need to bully him into riding along with you in order to get quality maintenance, then there is a serious problem.

[SASless]

No Bullying....Simply ask if he is happy with everything that was done, the duplicate inspections done, and the paperwork finished, and the aircraft ready for the Air Test. With an affirmative response to all that.....look them in the eye and say...."Load Up!". Then have them go along with you as you do a real Pre-Flight Check....opening up access panels and shining your flashlight into all the dark cubby holes where things can hide. Looking at every Control Linkage Bolt and Nut....Cotter Pins....as you can after maintenance is a very good habit to get into. If two sets of eyes are good....three are better!

Anything but a cheerful and willing affirmative response and heading off the aircraft.....the aircraft stays parked until Management takes corrective action.

I have found all sorts of surprises on/in aircraft that were "All set to go!". From Torque Wrenches, rolls of locking wire, hand tools, rags, buckets, even a full sized damn Quilt on one.

If you find something on your Pre-Flight....write up an Incident Report....no matter how loud the whining is....and no matter who is doing the whining. You aren't being unfair.....just putting some integrity back into the system.

Engineers can kill you.....a very tiny percentage are dangerous and the vast majority are very darn dedicated Professionals trying to doing the job right....but they are human and thus able to make mistakes even though doing their very best not to. The key is sorting out that small minority that need to be in some other employment and not showing them the least bit of leeway.

I have seen some Engineers do some incredibly good work in arduous conditions and still admire them for their ability and skill. Some I would only carry a loaded gun in my hand if they were near me as they proved themselves quite happy to kill me with their Spanners.

[OffshoreHeli-Mgr]

I believe Air Methods has recently purchased Sundance Helicopters.

IMHO perhaps to use as a feeder of trained turbine pilots for their HEMS operation.

[pilot and apprentice]

No argument with you SAS, all good professional advice. The only exception I would have is those operators who maintain a "less than just" culture where writing up a report would result in actions more punitive than constructive. They are out there.

But the sum of the posts by the author of what I quoted look to me like a poisoned work environment. When he assumes the engineer doesn't "give...a crap" unless forced to ride along.

I've done more than my fair share of post-maintenance flying as a result of some of the jobs I've had and I don't think I've ever felt that the engineer(s) who worked on the aircraft would do his job any differently if he knew he had to ride along (outside of a couple vacation spots in west Africa).

I've also happily gone along whenever asked by a pilot whose aircraft I have worked on. And yes, it can be a pain, because sometimes there are still other jobs that need to be done on the ground. Such is life.

Is this really that indicative of attitudes in those other places??

Perhaps my perspective is a little unique.

[Nopax,thanx]

From a read of their website you would never think that there had ever been any maintenance issues with this operator.....:rolleyes:

Sundance Helicopters (http://www.sundancehelicopters.com/safety.aspx)

[SASless]

PandA,

If one is employed by a "Less than Just" Operator....one needs to seek alternative employment as that LTJ attitude mindset kills Pilots.

Sometimes a phone call to the right place can work miracles.

[pilot and apprentice]

I don't work there any more, but that is another story.

There is still more grey out there than black and white.