Logging of IF time

[4g_handicap]

How are you supposed to log IF time?

Some people I have spoken to claim that all time flown under IFR is to be looged as IF. My interpretation of the law is that only time where you have hand flown the aircraft on instruments qualifies as IF time.

This then implies that the captain of an airliner cannot log an approach when flown by the co-pilot, or the auto-pilot. How then does he stay current when most companies madate that approches be flown automatically?

Any ideas?

:confused:

[Dave Incognito]

In Australia, you can only log IF time when you are in actual or simulated IMC, and you are the pilot hand flying or providing input into the autopilot.

[4g_handicap]

Yup, thats pretty much the way we do it here too. I'm not sure that providing input to the autopilot(in my case pushing the APR button) will qualify here in South Africa as IF time, in terms of the law. Also, where would one draw the line, since you could be described as working the autopilot when flying cross country in heading mode.

[Julian]

I took the FAA IR and there it is divided up into ACTUAL, ie when you really cant see out of the window! and SIMULATED, in others words hood time.

How you estimate each actual, simulated and when ot flying in IR on a long flight though could get a bit mad and I doubt there is any precise method - more guesstimation :D

Julian.

[vheijens]

If you are flying simulated IMC, this will be normally a dual flight.(Because you are flying in VMC, and somebody will have to look out for other a/c).
And it looks silly to me if you put on a hood when you are flying single pilot. Because who will look out for the other a/c, when you are to bussy looking inside.

And where I fly it is pretty easy. I you filled an IRF flight plan, you can log the time as IFR time. (It is quite logical, because you are among other IFR traffic, under IFR regulations, on IFR airways, ect.)

;)

http://users.pandora.be/linda.basstanie/TopFly.gif

[Dave Incognito]

Here is what the Australian regs say:


Instrument Flight Time

All flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:

a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;

b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;

c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;

d) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach.

[englishal]

Under the FAA you can only log Simulated or actual instrument time when you are either under the hood with a safety pilot, or in actual IMC. Being on an IFR flight plan doesn't mean jack if the weather is nice and clear.

Pretty sure this is the same the world over...

[rolling circle]

JAA regulations make a distinction between "flight in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules" and "instrument flight time". JAR-FCL 1.080 includes the statement "A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions". The meteorological conditions are, of course, irrelevant to flight in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules which may be logged whether one is VMC or IMC.

The approved courses of training for the JAA PPL, CPL and Integrated ATPL, as well as for the Instrument Rating include a requirement for some amount of 'instrument flight time'. However, once those basic qualifications are gained, the experience requirements for, say, the IRI rating include only '800 hours of flight time in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules', not 'instrument flight time'.

Hence, under JARs, it is important to log separately VFR and IFR flying and the JAA compliant logbook described at IEM-FCL 1.080 has separate columns for VFR and IFR flight.

The matter is further complicated by the fact that some of the 'instrument flight time' gained during training may have been conducted in simulated IMC while flying under VFR and much of the time spent flying 'in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules' will probably have been gained while flying visually in VMC.

englishal's statement that "Being on an IFR flight plan doesn't mean jack if the weather is nice and clear." does not, therefore, apply to the JAA

[4g_handicap]

Hi there,

Guys, thanks for all the replies. I am still not certain on when to log the time.

The South African regs state the you may only log IF when you are manipulating the controls soley by reference to instruments.

This means for us the weather conditions do not matter and presumably you must be IFR(possibly under the hood an exception).

It looks like the JAR & FAR allow for you to log IF time even if flown on autopilot(rolling circle said "when operating the aircraft under IMC & on instruments")

In this case I can see why the Captain can log IF time when his co-pilot does the approach, because it stands to reason the as PIC he operates the aircraft.

As a matter of interest, I have flown about 250 hours of actual IF over 4500 flight experience(and a good 50 hrs of that was to get the rating) this means that I did closer to 190 hours in 4000 hours. Is this in line with what you guys log?

Thanks guys


:)

[englishal]

"A pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions".

Well if you can see out of the window and have a nice horizon, then you are not operating the aircraft 'solely by reference to the instruments', and 'simulated instrument conditions means with a 'view limiting device'.

So what I said was correct, if you are in VMC without a 'view limiting device' on you cannot log simulated or actual instrument time, regardless if your are on an IFR flight plan. You can however log SIT while flying VFR with a 'view limiting device' on, even though you are not on an IFR flight plan.


Another thing...you can only log an Instrument approach as an IP if in actual IMC or with the hood on. Flying an IP in VMC, whether or not on an IFR flight plan does not count.

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: englishal ]

[Eff Oh]

englishal:
If you are flying in an airway or controlled airspace (except a control zone etc), then you must be flying IFR. (INSTRUMENT Flight Rules) Therefore, although you may not be staring at the instruments, you are still using them as your primary source of navigation. You cannot fly VFR in an airway in the UK. Rule 27 of the ANO (I know its all Euro stuff now, but is the same)
In order to comply with the IFR, before any flight within controlled airspace the aircraft commander must file a flight plan (irrespective of whether IMC or VMC exist.)

Eff Oh.

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Eff Oh ]

[Matthewjharvey]

A very subjective issue the logging of instrument time. The logging of simulated instrument time is obviously straightforward, however, actual instrument time is not.

As the regs say, you have to be operating solely by reference to instruments. Only the pilot flying can determine whether he is flying solely by reference to instruments, There have been times when I have been Visual Flight Rules but when vis has been pretty limiting and I have logged instrument time. Also when IFR I have logged instrument time when not strictly in solid IMC but in weather not good enough to warrant looking outside, particularly when as part of a two man crew. So it really is subjective, a weatherman on the ground is never going to know what conditions you are in above, so the CAA/FAA can never question your decision to log this kind of time.

[Dave Incognito]

Eff Oh,

I'm not familiar with air law over your way, but what is the point of limiting flight in CTA to only IFR aircraft?

The excerpt makes sense for IFR, but doesn’t really suggest that VFR aircraft are excluded from CTA.

I'm not having a go at your post, just curious.

[Dave Incognito]

Far out, that would make for some unhappy trips constantly trying to dodge controlled airspace. :(

[4g_handicap]

Ok guys, I can see that the regs vary from place to place - what would be the ethical thing to do?

Do you guys also have currency requirements - ie here in SA, we must do 3 letdowns(actual or simulated) every 90 days, before we act as PIC.

Furthermore here in SA the weather is generally good, so it is easy to fly for a lengthy period and never do a letdown.

I do sometimes fly a route where the destination is fogbound and the aircraft is not autopilot equiped. This means that I let the FO do the letdown(monitored approach). Often we end up doing 2 approaches and then diverting - can it really be that I as PIC of that flight cannot log the approach, since I didn't fly it?

That means that the authorities want to tell me that I can't fly as PIC on IFR flight because I am not current.

Thanks for the gen guys.

:rolleyes:

[englishal]

Eff Oh,

I realise that when flying in an airway (in UK) you are flying IFR etc. I had this very arguement with an examiner, and although on an IFR flight plan, in VMC you are not able to log IF time. The reason behind this is that although navigating via the instruments, you are strictly not controlling the A/C via 'sole reference to the instruments' as you have external visual reference, and as you probably are aware its alot harder flying with absolutely no external reference than if you have even a thin layer of cloud acting as a horizon (makes sense really). Its all a bit subjective though as its up to the pilot to decide what is and what isn't IF time.

Shame in the UK VFR pilots can't share the airways with IFR traffic like they can in the US. This effectively limits the altitude at which VFR pilots can cross the channel in certain areas, to a dangerously low levels.

FAA IR currency requirements are: 6 approaches, navigating via navaids, and holding procedures every 6 months. Its a constant rolling thing, so long as in your logbook you have the above within the previous 6 months, then you can act as PIC under IFR. If you don't then you get a further 6 months to go up in VFR conditions with a safety pilot / instructor (or in a sim with CFII) to complete the above. Failing this, you have to go up / sim with a CFII / examiner and do the above.

Cheers

EA

[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: englishal ]

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Personally I find it a lot easier to fly IFR in cloud than VFR or VFR/IFR. The reason being there is less looking around for traffic etc. and flight using the instruments only is just more secure all around as you tend to pay more attention to the airplanes position and attitude in space. I guess it is all what you get used to.

As to logging time use common sense, if not you can carry a stopwatch and keep clicking it as you enter and exit clouds. In other words don't get to carried away with the bureaucratic B.S. as you will end up an idiot like the ones that make up all these stupid rules.

Flying by reference to instruments alone is just shrinking your world down to the size of the instrument panel, no more no less.

--------------------
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :D

[rolling circle]

englishal - Perhaps you should read my previous post more carefully, I did not suggest that your take on 'instrument flight time' was incorrect. However, I did point out that, within the JAA, 'instrument flight time' becomes worthless once the ATPL (which requires 75 hours of 'instrument flight time') is issued. Thereafter, it is 'flight in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules' that counts. It is, surely, pointless to log 'instrument flight time' when all future qualifications are predicated on IFR flight time, whether gained in IMC or VMC.

[englishal]

Where do you log 'flight in accordance with IFR'? I only have 3 columns, one for SIT, one for Actual IT (by sole reference to the instruments, ie IMC) and one for ground trainer. Don't see any column for 'Flight in accordance with IFR'. In the comments box, I always note IFR if I have flown an IFR flight, but it cannot be logged in the AIT column.

I tend to agree with what you're saying, but trouble is some of these defenitions can be quite misleading. The worse thing that can happen is for a person to come to get a new rating etc., and to have their logbook audited and then get chucked out as they have incorrectly logged time and no longer meet the requirements....

Cheers

EA

[Megaton]

englishal,

Use the Pooley's JAR-FCL logbook which has seperate columns for IFR and IF although no column for simulated IF.

[mustafagander]

There's always been a contradiction in Oz - as Dave Incognito pointed out, the CAOs say that flight time in VMC at night can't be counted as IF time. The contradiction is that CAO 40.2.2 para 3.1(a) limits NGT VFR to pvt or awk a/c below 5700Kg MTOW. This means that the PIC of an RPT Metro 23 (no autopilot) technically cannot log any IF on a VMC night, yet is expressly forbidden to fly under VMC at night. Don't you love the beureaucratic mind!!
Note also that the NGT VFR rating is valid only in Oz - too bad for QF!!

[GlueBall]

When hand flying in VMC at night over water during a moonless night without reference to an altimeter and a gyro it would require magic to maintain exact altitude and exact wings level.

[Eff Oh]

ENGLISHAL :
I can assure you that when you fly a B757 or whatever, down an airway, you do not navigate it, or fly it by looking out the window! You do fly it "by sole reference to the instruments." The weather does not matter. Even if you can see the ground, your primary source of information is still the flight instruments!
In the UK (and europe I think) if you are in controlled airspace (as i have already said) you must fly IFR, no VFR allowed in CA!

Eff Oh :cool:

[Flap 5]

Therefore in an airliner you log IF for the whole flight, as you are always flying with reference to instruments. I would only deduct 10 minutes or so of IF time for a visual approach at the destination. Its somewhat different for GA.

Edited for clarity (?)

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: Flap 5 ]

[englishal]

Eff Oh,

I'm sure you're right ! However, I think the JAA and certainly the FAA would argue the logging of AIT...

When you refer to CA I assume you mean Class A (airways and the like), as VFR is certainly allowed in class D :p

Cheers

[rolling circle]

The JAR-compliant logbook, described at IEM FCL 1.080, has separate columns for VFR and IFR flight. It makes no provision for the recording of 'Instrument Flight Time' (flight by sole reference to instruments)because there is no value (under JAA requirements) in recording such time.

According to the instructions on how to use the logbook, Instrument Flight Time undertaken as part of training for a licence or rating should be recorded in the 'Remarks' column.

Under these requirements and on, for example, a public transport flight from A to B under IFR, the whole flight would be recorded in the IFR column. Any part of the flight which was by sole reference to instruments (e.g. in IMC) could be recorded by the handling pilot as instrument flight time. However, once a total of 75 hours of instrument flight time has been accumulated (the minimum for ATPL issue) there is clearly no point in logging any more.

Incidentally, it is not entirely true to say that an airliner in the airway is always flown by sole reference to instruments. Leaving aside the fact that the autopilot is engaged for most of the time, if the aircraft is being hand flown in VMC it is simply not credible that the handling pilot is receiving no visual cues whatsoever from the world outside. Without doubt the primary source of information is the flight instruments but it is not the sole source. In any case, surely it is not seeing the ground that is important - it is seeing the horizon!

As another example, consider, say, a Piper Navajo on a flight from A to B, on a CAVOK day, under the Instrument Flight Rules, which remains outside controlled airspace at all times. The aircraft will, for the most part, be flown visually and certainly never 'by sole reference to instruments' and so no part of the flight will be recorded as Instrument Flight Time. However, the whole flight will be recorded in the IFR column of the JAA-compliant logbook.

[Matthewjharvey]

Rolling Circle,

I disagree with you that there is no point in logging instrument flight time after ATPL issue. Many employers will be interested in your actual instrument time and may stipulate a minimum.