View Full Version : go around
7th Dec 2011, 15:17
Flew from Belfast 16 november to malaga flight EI048
Approached AGP from the med and over golf course at runway-so quite low but had to go around.
Pilot didn't give any info.
Anybody got any info- just curious?
pproached AGP from the med and over golf course at runway-so quite low but had to go around.
A mulligan, no doubt.
7th Dec 2011, 16:44
How can you deduce the pilots name from that?
A Mulligan, in a game, happens when a player gets a second chance to perform a certain move or action; usually due to lack of skill or bitter luck. A "Do-Over".
Obscure golf joke reference.
9th Dec 2011, 07:49
Just FYI - A Go-Around involves a high workload for your Flight Crew, often meaning that there is not time to make a PA: Most airlines recognise this, and a short, generic PA announcement can be made by the Senior FA to dispel alarm. It seems a pity that this does not appear to have happened in this instance.
9th Dec 2011, 08:55
Go-arounds are a fact of life. The reasons are too numerous to list and speculation in this case is pointless. However, I will stick my neck out on this one. A good flight crew performs a go-around and has another go instead of putting up with something which may make landing unsafe. The next bit is the initial part of the manoeuvre itself. Most aircraft, especially twins, go up like a rocket on a go-around as it's usually performed with full power (to start with, anyway). So you have to keep your wits about you. And I'm afraid speaking to passengers is the last thing on the list. To do so would have added more flight time because you would have to do this in a 'slack' period which would have meant creating a time buffer where it would have been possible for one person to fly and the other to speak. Being radar vectored at low altitude and setting an aircraft up for an approach is not the time you fly single pilot.
So you should feel happy that you were being flown by 'proper' pilots.
9th Dec 2011, 21:30
Ag B......I smiled....:O
17th Dec 2011, 11:39
Ag B - Brilliant
Fan11 - :ugh:
In all seriousness though, I know workload up front is high but surely some reference at some point is possible, if not while airborne during taxi even?
Go-arounds are a fact of life (:D) but not that common.
Still I guess it's a good opportunity to be condescending to PAX, hey PM.
17th Dec 2011, 21:00
Still I guess it's a good opportunity to be condescending to PAX, hey PM.
L4key: I wouldn't describe my comments as condescending although I consider yours as sarcastic. I base my experience on being SLF at least twice a week. Most passengers consider a go-around is 1. Scary, 2. Dangerous, and 3. The sign that something has gone badly wrong. Too many demand that they should be told immediately what has happened, but that is not always possible. Now accepting that this site is full of professional pilots, you'll get comments from professional pilots who are un-constrained by the "market speak" pumped out by airline apologists who work in "Customer Care" departments. I stand by my words. Go-arounds are performed by 'proper' pilots who are not prepared to continue their current approach. Far too many continue with a crap approach.
And finally there may be an opportunity to tell the passengers what happened on the taxi in, provided of course there is enough time ...and the taxiing is not too complicated ...and the cabin crew are not doing their arrival PA etc. When you work your way to seat OA L4key, you can run things the way you want.
17th Dec 2011, 22:14
From my experience pax generally don't tend to be overly worried about go arounds. A simple, well worded PA from the cabin crew would put those minds that might be concerned at ease.
Skipness One Echo
17th Dec 2011, 22:25
From my experience pax generally don't tend to be overly worried about go arounds
Hmmm disagree. I don't mind as I know the score but I can see the tension rise in the cabin. It's not a minor thing to Joe Public. I have had three, two on the same flight on a heavy RJ100 EDI-LCY on a borderline tailwind and going into Gatters on easyJet when the aircraft ahead was slow in clearing. Cue TOGA and PA from the Cabin Crew with the tone set to "We're all about to hit the ground in a ****ing fireball". The eventual PA from the Flight Deck was much more modulated....
17th Dec 2011, 22:42
Here's an interesting one from Bilbao airport yesterday. There's a short advert to start with.
Cientos de afectados en Loiu y Hondarribia. diariovasco.com (http://www.diariovasco.com/v/20111217/al-dia-sociedad/cientos-afectados-loiu-hondarribia-20111217.html)
18th Dec 2011, 08:36
From my experience pax generally don't tend to be overly worried about go arounds.
Sorry, I know you say from your experience but overall that statement is absolute nonsense.
18th Dec 2011, 13:01
I have been paxing for 46 years and have never experienced a go-round BUT, I can be darn sure that a lot of pax will be worried.
Yes, I have seen some who have slept all the way though descent and only woken at touchdown, oblivious to all. But I have also seen the nervous ones who grip the arm rest and are watching everything.
I fully understand the process and, if it happened, would not be disturbed but I reckon more than 50% of pax would be. In this forum we have often discussed this topic and we know that the flight crew cannot possibly talk to us. However, I do think that carriers should have an automatic message ready that can be triggered by the senior cabin staff member. It can be neutral but it would be something.
On a lighter note. More than 40 years ago, my grandmother was leaving JNB for LHR in a VC-10. We watched from the balcony and saw a (low speed) RTO. They returned to the stand for a short while and then departed normally. In a letter some weeks later, replying to my mother's anxious enquiry, my grandmother replied, "I thought they always did that." Not many people would say that today.
19th Dec 2011, 01:22
Honestly guys, in all the go-arounds I have had (i'm crew), including one where one set of wheels touched down, passengers are generally ok. By ok I mean there aren't anyone visibly upset or crying etc etc. Remember also that very few go-arounds are abrasive and the application of engine power can actually be pretty gentle, ditto for the pitch of the aircraft. It's surprising how many people actually know what the score is and a reassuring PA done immediately by the cabin crew does the job. I usually joke that they are getting more for their money and that does the trick with those who might be a tad nervous.
But the way some of the describe things makes it sound like people are grippings armrests, praying and crying in the cabin and 99% of the time it is nothing like that. Indeed, I find the actual take off and light turbulence a lot more extreme than most go arounds.
19th Dec 2011, 11:04
Some years ago inbound to ATL (Delta B727) we broke off the approach at about 4 miles with an immediate left turn and (unusually for ATL I thought) a 360 (at roughly 1500/1800ft) back on approach for landing. Despite the manoeuvre and - I would have thought - a fairly busy FD, the Captain came on the PA briefly explaining what and why. I'd guessed what had happened but I'm sure that his PA helped to put many at ease that there wasn't anything more untoward going on. I shall always remember that low level orbit in a B727. Quite different to doing it in a Cessna 152. :)
19th Dec 2011, 11:46
Some captain's have very little interest in what goes on behind them at anytime and wouldnt trouble themselves to make a useful PA. Personally I think as a matter of courtesy a PA from the flight deck should be made. How anyone can say that passengers are not nervous if the aircraft makes a GA is difficult to understand. Many passengers are very nervous of flying and/or it may be their first flight. I just timed myself on the PA I would make and it took 20 seconds. If a professional public transport pilot cannot make a 20 second PA while posistioning from a GA he is probably not suitable for command. I had a thrust reverser partially deploy on TO and still managed to make a PA during our very brief circuit to land.
19th Dec 2011, 12:31
If a professional public transport pilot cannot make a 20 second PA while posistioning from a GA he is probably not suitable for command.
Nominee for stupid comment of the week!
Try that at Innsbruck or Salzberg or.....etc.
Most professional pilots have a great deal of interest in what goes on behind them. However the priority is as always to safely fly the aircraft and then communicate a game plan with ATC. Once time permits, a reassuring PA to the passengers can be delivered, which should be far more informative than something rushed or hurried into a constrained time slot.
Many airlines now have a set PA from the cabin crew in the event of a go-around that basically confirms the regularity of the procedure and notifies the passengers that the captain will give further details as time permits.
19th Dec 2011, 12:32
I never said nobody is ever nervous but I think people here are over dramatising a situation from the passengers point of view. I have never seen anyone visibly upset or panicked by a go around. I'm not saying it never happens but it doesn't happen as much as some of you would have us believe. I'd say far more passengers particularly enjoy the experience than those who are freaked out.
As for a PA from the flight deck, if they get time then great a PA should be great. If not the PA from the cabin crew explaining that the aircraft is discontinuing the approach and that it happens from time to time, should be enough.
I'm cabin crew so I'm sure I don't have to remind you of the three fundamental priorities: aviate, navigate, communicate. Considering go arounds can be caused by situations that add to the workload and stress on the flight deck, do we really need a PA from the flight crew in these scenarios or do we rather they focus on the first two priorities? I know which I would prefer.
19th Dec 2011, 13:19
Some captain's have very little interest in what goes on behind them at anytime and wouldnt trouble themselves to make a useful PA.
All the Captain's I have flown with as CC on public transport and presumably those as SLF as well have a great deal of interest in what goes on all around them Pull what.
In the queue behind your seat as pax is another aircraft on approach. Go around decisions are never made lightly.
The PA that could be made may well take only 20 seconds.......in that time the PF could have put that plane into the side of a mountain because the other guy is distracted talking to you.
I know what I would rather the guys at the pointy end are doing at that point......
My PA as a CC takes a bit longer than 20 seconds. I use our standard but also tailor it based on what I see re reactions around me and what if anything I know at that point.
I've never known anyone not be reassured by this.
19th Dec 2011, 15:51
When you work your way to seat OA L4key, you can run things the way you want.
PM - My god I hope that was said with the due irony - If so touché!
Saying 'we should be glad we are being flown by proper pilots' just riled me a little - could be argued a little over-sensitive.
Shame about 'pull whats' comments - These would be worthy of a patronising flourish though!
Anyway, back OT.
IMHO in summary, if any member of the crew can, then they should. I think this thread lends weight to the argument that most PAX are 'concerned' about a GA. No one would hold it against the crew if they couldn't though, of course most of us realise safety comes first
(and we'd much rather them fly the plane so we didn't have to worry our pretty little heads) ;):)
20th Dec 2011, 15:45
Bet your last four shillings I would be concerned about a go round. It's all very well upfront where you can see ahead and know what's going on. Not so easy when you are in the back looking sideways and in ignorance. No problem with no announcement if it would be a distraction.
20th Dec 2011, 16:22
I was SLF in the late 70's on a late evening/night Monarch B720, LTN - BLQ. Bologna was fogbound (it was February and common) so we diverted to VCE. Very bumpy approach, followed by a - what seemed to be a very low level - go around. Got down on the 2nd approach - again very bumpy and a hard landing. The ashen faces of the CC and the heavy wind and rain as we decended the steps said it all. I have to admit, the experience put me off flying for many years.
Fast forward to the early 90's. As a joke I was bought a trial flying lesson as a birthday present, my other half thinking it would be very amusing having a video of the event of me pooing my pants, knowing my fear of flying had not allowed us to go on "decent" holidays and this was payback :rolleyes: . With great fear, and not wanting to look a complete wimp (even though I felt it at the time) I went through with the lesson. I didn't realise that it's so different looking out of the front window! My other half was totally dismayed that I didn't jump out and kiss the ground when we taxied in. She felt even worse when I booked another lesson :).
Nine months later I was the proud owner of a PPL. A month later we had the family holiday she wanted in Florida :D . I carried on and got my night and IMC ratings, and she got her holidays.
I learnt that those guys up front on that night in Northern Italy had far more training than I. They were good at their jobs (or they wouldn't be there) and whilst it wasn't an easy landing, we were never in as much danger as I thought. I've now done landings which were bumpy, sideways, in need of a go around etc, some on my own and some with passengers. It always seems worse to passengers be it in a 400+ seat 747 or a 4 seat Cessna 172. I have the luxury of briefing passengers individually before, during and after the event. Commercial crews don't have that luxury.
I also learnt that weather can be a fickle partner. Fog (and therefore mainly still air) as was in Bologna, followed by heavy wind and rain 20 minutes away.
20th Dec 2011, 19:03
Not quite the same as learning to fly but prior to 9/11 when UK pilots were not banned from taking people in the cockpit I had 2 colleagues who didn't like flying. In fairly quick succession they both had cockpit rides down to landing. One came away still unhappy, the other was suddenly much more relaxed about flying.
20th Dec 2011, 19:12
In another country, my brother-in-law took a scedule service on a J41, when his son was LHS (later RHS).
My b-i-l had never been scared of flying, just took it for granted. After that 120 minute sector, he came away amazed and in awe of what his son could do and an abiding respect for FC.
If only more people could begin to understand.
22nd Dec 2011, 12:02
We had a go-around a few years ago at Bangkok (the old airport) on Thai Airlines. Daylight, good weather and a very last-minute go-around. We spent a while circling the airport with no information from the crew. During that time all kinds of things went through my mind, all of which assumed some problem with the aircraft (e.g. landing gear broken etc). People were calm but there was a definite tension in the cabin. When the FC did make an announcement it turned out that even though he had been cleared to land the pilot saw that there was another aircraft on the runway so he had to go around. I still thank God that there was good visibility on that day.
I'd much rather that the crew are doing whatever they need to do and that a PA might not be top of their priorities but don't say that passengers aren't concerned in these situations because they are. They don't have to be screaming and praying out loud to be concerned.
22nd Dec 2011, 17:30
I've been involved in two go arounds. Both with BA. The first was on an Airbus coming into Glasgow and the second on a 737 into Gatwick. I have to say that the Airbus blasted off like a rocket.
In both cases there was concern in the cabin. Not least from me. My head was telling me that things were under control, but logic does not necessarily win when a smooth approach to landing (both occasions took place on lovely sunny days) are transformed into climbs at a rate I had not experienced before.
In both cases the crew handled matters very, very well. Within a minute of the plane levelling, there was a very short announcement. In both cases a previous plane had been slow to clear the runway. I may have been fortunate, but my experience is that these matters are handled very well by crews.
23rd Dec 2011, 10:46
So this topic has come up again. I would like to ask a question to those professionals who have restated the important and entirely understandable point that the last priority of the flight deck crew in the case of a go-around is communicating what has happened to the passengers.
My question to you is: if there is no time to make a PA to passengers between initiating the go-around and touching-down from the second approach (and if you say this is a real possibility, I believe you), would it not be possible to explain what happened either while you taxi-in or, failing that if there is still no time, once you park up at the gate?
I agree that the PA from the SCCM in the initial stage of the go-around is a good idea, but it does not IMHO substitute an explanation from the pilots in the eyes of most passengers. (Also, if the standardised wording is: 'The captain will provide more information when he has time' and he then doesn't, I suggest that reflects badly).
Those who know a bit about aviation understand that a go-around is a safe and routine manoeuvre. I've never experienced one, but if I do (and part of me would like to!), I won't be concerned - I'll be relieved I'm being flown by true professionals. But those of us with that mindset are always the minority in an aircraft's cabin. Even if there is no explanation from the FD, I'll still disembark knowing that my safety was not jeopardised. But I bet many passengers will disembark thinking 'Well, something went very wrong there, didn't it? I'm not sure I'll fly with this outfit again'.
My point is: is it not always worth making sure those less-informed passengers leave the aircraft understanding why there was a go-around rather than leaving them to go home and tell the tale of their near-miss? And before you come back with 'flight safety before happy customer', I hear you and understand you . ;)
26th Dec 2011, 14:06
Over the years I too have had the hankering for the go around experience. My wish was granted a couple of years back during a landing into Malta. The approach had been very bumpy and it took an age before we could see the ground. Just as we got over the runway and I was expecting touchdown the left wing dipped and immediately the power came on and we climbed out. It all went very smoothly and it was great to experience the surge from the engines.
We sat there for a few minutes wondering what had happened when a voice came over the pa system and uttered one word which sounded like "gosh". Because we had an all female cabin crew I reckoned it came from the flight deck and I began thinking that if it scared them what must some of the passengers feel like. A couple of seconds later the senior cc member took a call from the flight deck and shortly after that the captain advised us that we had picked up a tailwind just as we were about to land and, because the runway was wet, he decided to go around. I think I would have preferred not to have know that for the second approach and instead find out once we were on the ground.
Anyway, on the way out of the plane I noticed that that the senior cc members name tag said Goosh. The captain had obviously selected the wrong button when trying to communicate with her and managed to scare a few people in the process.
27th Dec 2011, 11:05
I am a nervous flyer (not visual to others - but crumbling inside).
Only fly a couple of times a year and experienced a GA in Munich on a BA flight. I hate the descent especially as the ground gets closer and I try and read my book but I cannot help looking out of the window. Landing is the worst part of the flying experience for me, I really do not like it.
Anyway, practically on the runway when whoosh, throw back time and back in the air. Surprisingly I amazed myself at how calm I was. Typical hubby cool as cucumber and absolutely no concern.
The captain did make an announcement (cannot remember the exact time he did this) but said it was due to another plane not getting out of the way on the runway in time so he decided to do a GA.
However despite my nerves, last week I flew alone from ABZ to MAN on one of those wonderful Embraer aeroplanes and actually watched through the window the whole descent and landing process at MAN without any nerves whatsoever!! That was without any red wine as well :ok: Different story back up to ABZ though, typical bumpy descent as per usual which seems par for the course in Aberdeen!
28th Dec 2011, 11:54
In all honesty I'd expect the GA to be somewhat of a worry to passengers. They are a normal flight manoeuvre though I guess pretty rare to be honest as the extra fuel burn is not at the top of airlines wish list nor the crews'. Their rarity means most won't experience one ever (beyond training some pilots might not), and for that reason they cone as a shock.
As standard as they are they do present a higher workload and sadly in busy airports with s short taxi in the PA may never come. That's a shame but it's also a fact and not indicative of any laissez faire attitude towards keeping passengers in the loop, but quite often at the end of a sector the Red Cap is already in the door before the parking checklist is complete (I exaggerate, but only slightly). I think its a situation when the CC are well placed to speak up on behalf of the FC as they will be reasonably aware of what is going on from experience. Though the reason may bot be known to them you will be certain that if something is seriously awry you'll be getting some short sharp PA's.
8th Jan 2012, 08:10
I've had 4 GAs as SLF (and a few as the PIC in lighties). It's always interesting to observe the reactions from the other pax. These range from sheer terror to absolute disregard. I'm sure that the former grouping are, shall we say, "nervous" passengers while the latter are likely dead-heading "front seaters". Much of the concern comes, in my opinion, from two factors:
1. Go-arounds are relatively rare. A guess would put them at well under 0.1% - that under 1 in a thousand.
2. Too many folk, especially our nervous pax, have watched and treat as 'the truth' the depictions we continue to see of aircraft falling out of the sky in material coming out of Hollywood and the like. (How many aircraft fell out of the sky at Y2K?)
On a couple of GAs, the flight deck explained what and why.
On another, after the (successful) second attempt, the skipper explained on the PA that the 2IC had done the approach, was still in training and hadn't done the approach correctly, so he (the skipper) made him do it again.
I should add that the skipper's humour was appreciated by the pax, all of whom were active aviators. The aircraft was a DC3 and the flight was a "nostalgic joy ride".
12th Jan 2012, 01:42
Chaps, any pilot will tell you the golden rule is:AVIATENAVIGATECOMMUNICATEsee what comes third. a go round like everybody has said is high work laod, even in little planes. youre talking to the tower, youre flying the plane (gear flaps airspeed) your postioning for missed approach (hopefully you have the plates out.or your figures are busy punching the keypad)..or slotting back into the circuit...etc..It gets busy even for two people. I was on a 747 of the eastern seaboard USA when lightning struck the nose, hell of a concussive bang... the pilots took an age to come on the PA, PAX bitched and moaned... but what were they doing?... trying to see properly again for one,... checking systems..comms running the check lists. I'd rather have them busy up front looking after the driving than tell me its ok.
12th Jan 2012, 07:21
As an addition to the above....
I'm now running at three.
Two of them last month!
Both very well handled by the crews involved...
A nice tour of Southampton water due to a discontinued
approach, apparantly due to ATC vectoring us in high??? Humm???
Then, the rollercoaster into Manchester on the 28th, now that
WAS spectacular! We were actually informed before leaving
Munich that Manchester was bumpy, but...
All the way in and a VERY low go around / touch and go.
I'm not bad as a flyer, having got over a fear of flying a
few years ago, however, thinking we were down, then, off
and round again was actually quite draining, knowing we've
got to do the last 10 minutes again.
Kudos to the EZY crew first, then captain for a very reassuring
and detailed explanation not only of what had happened (Windshear)
but also, how the second approach pattern would work.
I did think I'd get another into SOU last week as well, but, everything
calmed down in the last 2 minutes.
12th Jan 2012, 11:54
Was once on a B757 from Manchester to Heathrow, sitting just behind the wing. Pilot initiated a very early go-around as the flaps wouldn't extend and I was very amused to hear him make a PA explaining that ATC had asked him to go around.
After a flapless landing and taxiing back to the terminal, followed by a number of emergency vehicles, I swear I was the only pax onboard who had any idea what had happened!
Mark in CA
12th Jan 2012, 14:38
Have experienced several myself. Most common reasons for the go-around are traffic related, such as failure of the previous aircraft to clear the runway in time (either landing or taking off) or vehicular or construction traffic on the runway. From your description, it doesn't sound like a separation issue. In my experience, crew usually makes an announcement of some sort after they complete the go-around procedure. One time pilot came on and said he "didn't like the look of the vehicle that was on the runway." Another time was the failure of the previous aircraft that landed to clear the runway in time. Another time was much earlier in the approach due to too little separation with aircraft ahead of us in the pattern while landing during a snowstorm in Boston. In all cases, there was very little cause for concern.