One thing I'm scared of in GA....

[SPL-101]

Don't wanna be walking into a spinning prop!

Model 'walked into propeller saying thanks' (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8385880/plane-propeller-model-turned-to-thank-pilot)

[PLovett]

Don't wanna be walking into a spinning prop!

Well shut the bleedin' thing down while loading and unloading pax. :ugh:

[Stationair8]

Bit like the story that Captain Biggles used to tell.

In the PNG Highlands the Piaggio P-166 arrived on a demonstration flight, and the local airport workers had been told to walk in from behind to put the chocks in on all aircraft. Thats what they did, no doubt it ruined the day for those guys and the assembled crowd!

[Aye Ess]

By now the lawyers will be circling,speaking of multi millions in compensation.

[SPL-101]

Down at YSBK, a couple of times I've seen students turning the props for no reason. If a magneto is live, that prop can start up. If the aircraft isn't tied down it can start moving even at idle power. Someone just walking past might walk into it. You obviously wouldn't walk into a spinning prop on purpose!

[Wally Mk2]

Nasty business,yuk! She believes in the Lord I read,well God help her is all I can say as he's not gunna be of any help now ! She joins quite a few that have done sim things like a certain golfer.
I'd hate to be the pilot,right or wrong he's gunna have that on his mind for the rest of his life.




Wmk2

[Oakape]

I sat on the front porch of the club building at Ardmore years ago, watching one of the instructors load a 206 for one of the regular pax flights they did over to Waiheke Island.

He finished the loading, got on board, closed the door, opened the window, turned the master switch on, hit the fuel boost pump & called "clear prop". The beacon was on. He must have been a split second away from turning the key & engaging the starter.

Just at that moment, an idiot & his friend walked up to the front of the aircraft from just behind the wing, reached out & grabbed one of the blades of the prop.

The instructor turned off the master & waited for the gentlemen to move away. When they were a couple of metres away, he turned the master back on & started the plane. That got their attention!

I asked the instructor later why he hadn't turned the key. He said that he got the smallest indication of movement out the corner of his eye, just as he was starting to turn the key & stopped himself from turning it.

If his head had been turned just a fraction to the right, there would have been another nasty accident & possibly even a fatality.

These guys were pilots & should have been more aware & known better. You just can't help some people. They have no sense of danger, self preservation or even a shred of common sense.

[RadioSaigon]

I've seen students turning the props for no reason...

Treat every prop as 'live' unless you personally have proven it otherwise, very recently. That's what dead-cut checks are for during your run-up, and should be done immediately before pulling the mixture on every shut-down also. On some aircraft types, it's very helpful to pull a 2-bladed prop to the vertical after shut-down, especially high-wing twins. It helps prevent a painful collision when working around the aircraft. At the end of the day, it's your arse. Do what is necessary to protect yourself.

[MACH082]

I've done it before.

I was a Metro First Officer and I was spinning the propeller on shutdown. As I was pulling it through 20 turns the baggage handler at the rear of the aeroplane asked for my advice with some cargo and where to load it.

Of course I walked straight through the propeller ark to cross under the wing with the intention of assisting.

The propeller struck me across the shoulder and planted me onto the tarmac.

I only had some bruising but I was more in shock at how bloody stupid I had been and how quickly something can happen if you lose vigilance or are distracted.

Even worse it happened in full view of the passengers waiting at the terminal to board.

I had some funny looks as they were boarding :{

[VH-XXX]

I've been in situations where it could have happened to me or others, those situations are high-noise environments, where you are literally unable to hear an aircraft engine and prop literally right behind you. I wonder if there was noise from another aircraft in this situation that contributed to this tragedy.

[Sunfish]

After years of being careful not to ever walk through the arc of a propeller, anytime, anywhere, nor allow anyone else to, I screwed up.

DO NOT EVER WALK BACKWARDS NEAR AIRCRAFT.

It was at Tyabb at the end of a Funflight event. There were several aircraft departing the parking area and I was waiting to meet and load my passenger.

I was watching what was happening in front of me, forgetting that there were aircraft behind me, and I took two steps backwards to allow a wing tip to clear ----- almost into the rotating prop of the C172 behind me.

[bankrunner]

The most important thing is that she loves the lord

Good to see you've got your priorities in order mate. :E

How about that she's still alive, or wasn't injured more seriously etc?

[VH-XXX]

Unless you're using religion for tax free purposes or flying for MAF, God ain't going to help you with much in aviation particularly if you walk into a propellor.

[lilflyboy262...2]

I've had some pretty close calls as well.

Taxiied in in a caravan, and parked next to another van that was about to start loading. The passengers watched me pull in and then watched the pilot begin to load bags in the pod.
One passenger thought that it would make a good photo and walked backwards so he could get a good shot.
The pilot loading the bags, saw what was about to happen and grabbed him by the straps of his backpack. I shut the engine down pretty quickly as well, but still would have been fatal.... Stupid thing was that I was the only one on the field making any noise and he still nearly walked into me.

Another was a baggage handler who should have known better, was fooling around with his friend while loading an islander. He ran away from his friend just as I was starting up. Engine was motoring over, and I was about to add the juice... His friend yelled a warning to him and he realised what he was about to do. Wouldn't have been fatal, but still sore!
Then had the balls to shot me a look as if it was my fault.

We always did hot turnarounds in the van. Always gave the passengers a good briefing telling them that the engine will still be running, with prop still turning. Never had an issue.

[Super Cecil]

Horrible Aircraft Accident - YouTube

Wonder if this bloke had devine intervention? :8

[Gmac115]

I must admit it scares me to death..Whether it was a student on a first flight or a bloke with enough bars to build a prison I always want to see keys hands feet balls etc before I go near a prop even then it's live in my mind.. Some people take it so personally too! I don't understand it!

[Worrals in the wilds]

DO NOT EVER WALK BACKWARDS NEAR AIRCRAFT.Or spin around quickly then walk without thinking first. I still have the scar from walking into a stationary cessna prop while helping a refueller with his ladder; I copped it straight in the mouth, was knocked to the ground and lucky not to lose any teeth. I'd like to think I'd have been more careful around a spinning prop but the fact is, I didn't intend to walk into the damned thing either way, and was 100% careless in doing so. Lesson learned. :ouch:

Hopefully the poor girl will make a reasonable recovery. :sad:

[jas24zzk]

That You-tube hoax is just another example of very poor technique 'lack of respect'

All too often I see 'experienced' people hand starting tail draggers from in front. WTF!!! sure your body is clear...but what about your lower legs? d0pes!

I was taught from day dot to treat all props as live. I've been in the game some time and things like steering sticks, and using the prop as a push/pull point for ground handling still scares the bejesus out of me...and thats on a/c i Know!.

We have a tecnam online at the local club, and part of the procedure prior to boarding is to pull the prop through until the dry sump system 'burps' (i.e its scavenged) so you can check the Oil level. This didn't last long as too many people disliked the risk. So procedure change went into play. Mags off, Throttle closed, and crank until you see oil pressure. NOW check the oil level.

I noted with interest the HOT movement of passengers. On a turbine Totally understandable why they would want to. On a piston, the reasons escape me, (except an instructor bailing for a students early solo stuff).

I watch with interest last time I was into avalon east, a well known caravan operator arrive, feather and await company personel to roll out, open the door and sheppard the passengers off airside. They had a couple of airshow airside people assisting, but it was the company personel that were closest to the A/C whilst the prop was imitating a paddle steamer. Very professionally done.
I was fortunate enough to witness them hot loading. Not as many personel available, and the single ground crewman ran the Pax out in pairs, and was last aboard.

Safety isn't hard. :eek:

Props scare me!

[Jake.f]

I have been taught to treat every prop as live and do as such. On the aircraft I fly it is procedure to pull the prop through before first flight of the day to 'burp' the engine before checking oil level. Even though the engine is cold, and I make damn sure (Quadruple check) I check the mags are off, throttle is closed and park brake is on tight + chocks it is still slightly nerve racking. I find that as I pull I lean backwards, so that if by some miracle the engine fires I will most likely be out of the way and in a better position to run for my life...

[glekichi]

If only she had been wearing a hi-vis vest!

:ugh::ugh:

[Desert Flower]

She joins quite a few that have done sim things like a certain golfer.

Heard that he later bought a pub & named it Newton's Arm! ;)

DF.

[Tee Emm]

it's very helpful to pull a 2-bladed prop to the vertical after shut-down

What an idiotic idea. The prop could still be `live~ despite the mag keys being off and also hot spots in the cylinders could ignite as you move the prop and Oops you will look like a convicted thief in Saudi Arabia:E

[Cinders]

I organised and filmed a live cross of Jack doing a tandem into a golf tornament a few years back. We didn't want to cross the line with him, so we got the boys together and got the jokes out of our system in the pre brief before he got there.:=

On the way to the plane, he made a point of dragging us up to a respectful distance from the (stationary) prop, and told us to "Watch out for these fu*k3rs when they're spinning!).

That opened the floodgates, and we spent the ride to height running through the full list.

His favourite on the day?

"How much force does it take to stop a prop? About a third of a Newton.":oh:

He was a gent, zero ego, had a ball, played nice for the cameras, bought us all beers at the bar afterwards, invited us into the booth to say G'day the next couple of years after we jumped.:ok:

C.

[VH-XXX]

Another pilot and I copped a prop tip to the corner of the eye at the same time during an engine compression leakdown test on a 2 blade prop. I was on one side and he was on the other. Too many people were "helping" when the compressed air was applied; happened way too quickly to do anything about it.

The ambulance driver said he put the pedal to the medal when they heard that TWO people had been hit in the head by a prop - they had absolutely no idea what they were going to encounter when they arrived there, fearing the worst.

[R J Kinloch]

27 stitches in my left hand from a C206 with a faulty mag switch 30 years ago.

[Moore]

As we all know props are lethal and it can happen to anyone. It nearly happened to me when I was leaving a helicopter in a confined area when I was about 21 years old. A Norwegian safety officer stopped me from walking through the tail rotor blade. It is so easy to do and I believe happened on the Norfolk/Suffolk border many years ago when someone walked through the prop and was killed after a pleasure flight. During World war 2 there was a case of a lorry backing into a heavy bomber and several aircrew were killed at the time. Not sure when and where. Perhaps we should all switch off the engine and wait until all motion has stopped and have a safety officer present if possible. This will be difficult to arrange at times but caution is the name of the game and one astute person could stop a tragedy from happening. I do hope Lauren recovers soon.

[Trojan1981]

I remember the channel seven Christmas tape from about 1997 had a good one caught on film. The Ch.7 Squirrel was turning and burning on a beach somewhere when a young lady journalist climbed out of the left side, then crossed over to the right side by going under the tail boom! As she passed underneath the spinning tail rotor lightly flicked the end of her long blonde hair. The worst part was that despite coming so close to certain death, she didn't even notice!

[Aussie Bob]

On the aircraft I fly it is procedure to pull the prop through before first flight of the day to 'burp' the engine before checking oil level.

Pardon my ignorance but what sort of stupidity is this? Please explain what engine and what rationale?

[RadioSaigon]

What an idiotic idea.

Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree then Tee Emm. I did exactly that several times a day over about 7-8 years of flying Islanders commercially. The risk of doing damage to oneself when constantly in the area of horizontal blades is immense, the consequences at a minimum painful, at worst potentially career ending.

The prop could still be `live~ despite the mag keys being off...

If you read my post properly, you would see that I stated: conduct a proper dead-cut check immediately prior to pulling your mixtures. That alone if done correctly will identify any faulty switches, broken P-leads or a hot mag.

Take care out there

[jas24zzk]

Quote:
On the aircraft I fly it is procedure to pull the prop through before first flight of the day to 'burp' the engine before checking oil level

Pardon my ignorance but what sort of stupidity is this? Please explain what engine and what rationale?

Bob,
If you read my post on Page 1, you would have seen I mentioned the same thing for The tecnam. The Tecnam is Rotax equipped with a dry sump style system.

The resorvoir for the oil system sits higher than the engine sump itself, so when left sitting, the oil drains out of the reservoir and back into the sump.

As the dipstick is in the reservoir, you need to 'scavenge' the sump and refill the reservoir/balance the oil in the system. If you have the cowl open and the dipstick (which also forms the filler cap) removed, you will be made aware of the fact you have succeeded by a nice healthy 'belch' coming from the reservoir as the air comes out of the system. Once you have done this you can check the oil level. If you do it before, you will see no oil on the dipstick.

The procedure is listed in the flight manual. It can take as many as 20 rotations to get this done by hand rotation.

Cheers
Jas

[hard_yakka]

If your aircraft has a radial engine (Yak 52 in my case), pulling the prop through 12 blades before startup is SOP. Makes sure every cylinder opens it's exhaust valve and lets out any oil that may be sitting in the bottom cylinders ready to bend a rod when the engine fires.

I have a healthy respect for props but handling them is a necessity on this aircraft.

[Bergerie1]

There is an apocryphal story of a BOAC Flight Engineer who walked through a turning prop, quite by chance he missed the blades in the same way a bullet misses them from a synchronised machine gun. When he realised what he had done he fainted. Does anyone know if the story is true?

[T28D]

Yes Tee Em it's very helpful to pull a 2-bladed prop to the vertical after shut-down

This will let any rain water drain out of the spinner whilst the aircraft is parked and negate the possibility of corrosion in the hub which is particularly bad for constant speed propellors.

All radials require 2 full engine revolutions to clear and cylinders from a hydraulic lock, debending on the reduction gearing this is measured in the number of blades passing , in the case of a Wright 1820 it is 9 blades, or 3 propellor revolutions.

All dry sumped engines suffer from the fact that the oil in the header tank will bypass the pressure gear pump over time and fill the bottom of the engine, this needs to be cleared before start or expensive things happen similar to the radial problem ( which has the same cause).

[lilflyboy262...2]

@ Bergerie

He must have been moving bloody quick to avoid the prop.
Think about have thick a body is, and how fast a prop is moving.
He'd be moving "faster than a speeding bullet"

[VH-XXX]

SOP for the Rotax 912 regardless of model or aircraft. Has a dry sump.

As posted earlier turning it over with starter with mags off would give similar (safer) results, however I could see that approach going pear-shaped occasionally with people not being in the aircraft whilst turning it over electrically.

[glekichi]

Once worked under a CFI that didn't believe in live mag checks before shutdown, or course this was the same CFI who didn't know about hand swinging on the mag with the impulse coupling only as opposed to using both. No wonder he had never seen a live prop.... he wasnt checking for them!! I found one.
Not only that, but also a lack of respect for prop/mag combinations from a lot of the students there.
No problems pulling Cessna singles around by the prop, but by jeez I want to see the keys out of the ignition and up on the dash before I do so, and know that the switches had been checked on shutdown.

[Aussie Bob]

The procedure is listed in the flight manual. It can take as many as 20 rotations to get this done by hand rotation.

Thanks for the heads up Jas. I do believe that someone once told me that it was also impossible to hand start a Rotax. Never operated one myself but the time will come ....

[rutan around]

Very early in my flying career? I learned that people are often confused around aircraft and only think about one thing at a time.eg getting to the gate and ignoring-forgetting all other instructions. On the very rare occasions I've had to leave the engine running while pxs disembark I positioned the plane so the tail was towards the gate so even the doziest px had only to walk the most direct route to the gate and away from the prop.
Cinders At the time Jack Newton had his accident we operated a C210 and I was led to believe a C210 was involved in Jack's accident. This joke quickly made the rounds. What's it cost to run a 210? Answer-- An arm and an eye. Sounds like Jack is the sort of bloke who wouldn't be offended by that one.
Cheers RA

[The Butcher's Dog]

A few days after that unfortunate incident wth Jack Newton, walking to the old Flight Facilities building along the flight line, I found a severed finger in the grass - not sure if it was his but guessed it was likely to be. Very sobering and have infinate respect for props ever since.
Treat ALL props as live!!! Unless its detached and on the shop floor....

[Luke SkyToddler]

An engineer was killed over the north apron at Ardmore in the early mid '90s ... as I recall, he was doing an engine run on a PA28, got out and stepped off the FRONT of the wing?!

[dhavillandpilot]

On an original Heron with Gipsy Queens, it was SOP's to pull the props through to clear the oil.

Just remember this aircraft had 4 enfines - the first officer who usually got the job was always knackered afterwards.

As for SOP's any one who has flown a Gipsy engined aircraft be it a Tiger Moth or a Heron always pulls the props thru, but with a health respect for the one that will bite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[osmosis]

...and let's not forget the loaders of agricultural aircraft working around an aircraft with spinning propeller many times a day; day in day out. They have no business with it specifically and stay away, seemples.

I am surprised to learn here of the need to purge oil with even modern aero engines, the Rotax; is that right? You don't see THAT on the glossy brochures anywhere.

[walschaert valve]

I remember as an apprentice checking for leaks after an engine change on a Queenair and being between the engine and the fuselage when I saw a fuel line leaking fuel. I bashed on the side of the fuselage and just stopped myself getting out of there by running forward into the turning prop.

Still gives me the shivers when I think about it 30 years later.

[VH-XXX]

You don't absolutely have to burp the rotax every time from memory, it's just to get an accurate oil level on the dipstick.

[Deaf]

Did a nightmare of a effort with a Cherokee 6 during a Scout Jamboree. Air Experience ie big circuit over the camp, after problems with hot starting rest of it was done with engine running.

Not too bad, kids were disciplined, 4 scoutmasters to handle unloading/loading but still a worry.

[osmosis]

Has anyone operated a Rotec radial? I'm wondering about their need to be hand turned.

[SPL-101]

Model loses eye after propeller accident (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8390708/model-loses-eye-after-propeller-accident)

[T28D]

Osmosis, Rotec is same as all other radials, a dry sump engine or remote oil reserviour as the spirit moves you.

So yes it is good practice to clear the bottom cylinders either by hand or on the starter no magneto for 2 full engine revolutions which in the case of geared propellors can be 3 propellor revolutions or the common expression with a 3 bladed prop is 9 blades then mags on and prime to start.

[Airways Ed]

Jas & Aussie Bob

The oil dipstick on the Rotax 912 of the Flysynthesis Storch and Texan our club has can be read without 'burping' the engine.

I've also been assured that the Rotax cannot be hand started, even with mags on, but I prefer to ensure everything off when near the meat grinder...

[Ultralights]

I am surprised to learn here of the need to purge oil with even modern aero engines, the Rotax; is that right?
The oil dipstick on the Rotax 912 of the Flysynthesis Storch and Texan our club has can be read without 'burping' the engine.


its not mandatory to pull a rotax through, and it also depends on the installation, as its a dry sump setup, the location of the sump in relation to the crankcase will determine if you need to pull it through to get an accurate oil level on the stick, if the sump is high, the oil will drain back to the engine, and need a pull through to get it back into the tank, if its below, then its not needed.
i dont mind the need to burp the oil, it does a few jobs, first, you now have oil pumped through the engine before its started, you get an accurate oil level on the stick, and you can feel the compression on each cylinder as you turn the engine over. not only that, the external oil tank does a great job at cooling it also.

i am also aware of the treat every prop as live mantra, so myself, and i teach my students when pulling a prop through to burp the oil, stand behind the prop, and pull the blade down from the top to chest height, so if the highly improbable happens, and the engine starts, the aircraft will move away from you, and not through you, the wash will push you away from it, and the wing hitting your back/or lift strut in a high wing will also hopefully stop the aircraft from racing off any thurther.