Fears for Pentagon air power as Iran claims drone capture

[Lyneham Lad]

Reported in The Times:-

part quotation from the article
Although the Iranians claimed to have shot down a drone, the report from Tehran also said it had been recovered without serious damage. This would imply that it was not hit by anti-aircraft defence systems but by electronic counter-measures.
“The operators lost control of the aircraft and had been working to determine its status,” said a statement from the International Security Assistance Force in Kabul.
The statement gives credence to Tehran’s claim that it forced down the RQ170 Sentinel drone electronically by taking over control of its operating systems. The potential consequences of that could be far-reaching for American drones operating in hostile environments and makes the loss not only embarrassing but also sinister for Washington. The Iranian Al-Alam state television network quoted a military official as saying the Sentinel was flying over eastern Iran. It is an advanced version of the Sentinel jet using radar-evading technology similar to that on the B2 Stealth bomber. It also shares the bomber’s wing shape.
If the Iranian claim is true, there will be added concern for the US, because if American military action is ever taken against Iran’s nuclear weapons facilities, the B2 would be used in an attempt to evade detection by Iranian radars.

Thoughts?

[racedo]

If so its already been sold to China or Russia to reverse engineer and figure out how to block.......

If actually over Iranian territory then a hostile act which Iran would be going to UN with.....

Not a good omen.

[iRaven]

Bolleaux

It is an advanced version of the Sentinel jet using radar-evading technology similar to that on the B2 Stealth bomber

Sentinel R1 and RQ-170 Sentinel are TOTALLY different capabilities. Plus B2 is SOOOO much more stealth than RQ-170. Here's why:

http://www.satnews.com/cgi-bin/display_image.cgi?433576587
No stealth measures on U/C doors or exhaust

http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bomber/b2/b2-8.jpg
Now on the B-2 the exhaust is diffused, it is covered in RAM and look at the leading edges of the doors - that's stealth.

RQ-170 has a reduced RADAR signature by the looks of it, but I see no evidence of significant use of RADAR Absorbent Material (RAM) or fancy shapes to reduce the RADAR cross-section - and I saw one reasonably up close at KAF to make that judgment.

All in all, looks like the Times needs a new aviation expert. Sad for the 30th if they have lost a jet, though. But it could be engine failure, comms failure, operator error or a host of other issues before spouting off about Electronic Attack of the Data-Links (if similar to MQ-1 or MQ-9 any denial of the link would see it fly back in a pre-programmed emergency mode).

What a load of supposition and made up journalism this is as well (something beginning with "s" anyway):
the report from Tehran also said it had been recovered without serious damage. This would imply that it was not hit by anti-aircraft defence systems but by electronic counter-measures.

So, Lyneham Lad, my thoughts are "bolleaux" :ok:

iRaven

[BBadanov]

iRaven: my thoughts are "bolleaux"

iRaven, you should not say your thoughts are "bolleaux" - some of your thoughts do sound reasonable.

[jamesdevice]

from wikid paedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_RQ-170_Sentinel


"The design lacks several elements common to stealth engineering, namely notched landing gear doors and sharp leading edges. It has a curved wing planform and the exhaust is not shielded by the wing.[/URL]. Aviation Week postulates that these elements suggest the designers have avoided 'highly sensitive technologies' due to the near certainty of eventual operational loss inherent with a single engine design and a desire to avoid the risk of compromising leading edge technology.[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_RQ-170_Sentinel#cite_note-AW-9"] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_RQ-170_Sentinel#cite_note-AW-9)"


yes I know wiki can't be trusted

[fltlt]

Why bother with espionage, just pull a chair and wait. One will fall out of the sky somewhere. The airframe is just a box to carry the gubbins. Now someone else has the latest gubbins. Any fool (sorry, but its true) can build an airframe. Very few folks can build gubbins. That is where the issue lies.
Hopefully the gubbins were protected, if not we just gave the folks who hate us a wonderful Christmas gift.

[lamer]

The "gubbins" in the drone are unlikely to be more advanced than those in your Iphone 4s. Maybe different but very likely made by the same people.
Good luck trying to sell it back to them. Wake up.

[fltlt]

Unfortunately I haven't seen any iphone encryption/codes capabilities in any of them. No, iphone doesn't use satcom or all the other good sniffers to listen, nor does it package them the same way.

Contrary to popular opinion, i phones are neat, fancy neat. Back to sleep now.

[glhcarl]

It is really comforting to know that we have people that post on PPRuNe that have more knowledge of stealth technology than the engineers of Lockheed Martin?

[TEEEJ]

Racedo wrote

If actually over Iranian territory then a hostile act which Iran would be going to UN with.....

Good luck with that one! Iran got caught violating Iraqi airspace back in 2009.

F-16 shot down Iranian drone in February

F-16 shot down Iranian drone in February - Air Force News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Air Force Times (http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/03/airforce_iran_uav_031609/)

Iran on a fairly regular basis also conducts artillery strikes into Iraqi territory.

Why Iran will continue to shell Iraq | Ranj Alaaldin | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/16/iran-shelling-iraq)

Iranian shelling reported in northern Iraq - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/07/09/iran.iraq/index.html?section=cnn_latest)

Somehow I don't think that they will find much sympathy in the UN with their track record of border violations.

[SASless]

From the original post...."Thoughts?"

Yep....one. Send another drone right over....armed with a great big ol' Bomb! Let'em take that one over.....and light off the firecracker when a bunch of the DxxKHeads are standing around high five'ing one another.

That'd cure the Fox of stealing chickens!:E

[Modern Elmo]

If the Iranians actually had shot down a UAV, they'd be showing off the wreckage.

They don't have anything, didn't shoot down anything.

[jamesdevice]

"The "gubbins" in the drone are unlikely to be more advanced than those in your Iphone 4s. Maybe different but very likely made by the same people."

So you reckon the gubbins is made in China by Foxonn then?
If so, no harm done.....

Somehow I don't think so

[jamesdevice]

"If the Iranians actually had shot down a UAV, they'd be showing off the wreckage."
As Steven Trimble says at BREAKING: Iran claims RQ-170 kill - The DEW Line (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2011/12/breaking-iran-claims-rq-170-ki.html)
"t's important to remember that Iran has claimed UAV kills before, although never about the RQ-170. In January, Iran claimed to shoot down two UAVs, and then claimed another UAV kill in July. Iran never provided pictures or videos to back up its claims. "

[ZH875]

The "gubbins" in the drone are unlikely to be more advanced than those in your Iphone 4s

Maybe they need spares to fix the iPods they aquired from the Royal Navy.

[Jackonicko]

Top banter, '875!

Made me chuckle.

[m0nkfish]

Why do the undercarriage doors need to be stealthy, are you going to lower the gear in enemy airspace?

[Willard Whyte]

The shutline will act as an efficient radar reflector.

[FODPlod]

Maybe they need spares to fix the iPods they aquired from the Royal Navy.

I love the banter too.

Just in case this situation leads to RAF non-aircrew being given similar opportunities to get up-close and personal with the Iranians:The 188 Best Luxury Hotels in Middle East (http://www.fivestaralliance.com/luxury-hotels/7/middle-east)
Unlikely in the foreseeable future because Libya has probably exhausted the RAF's hotel budget for a decade and those personnel involved are prevented from leaving their UK bases to book into foreign hotels for the next two years anyway. Those dastardly 1 in 5 RAF harmony rules strike again, right? :)

[Just This Once...]

Sam talks rubbish.

[Trim Stab]

Pentagon should get some lessons in stealth technology from ParcelForce delivery vans. They always manage to call at my house, and even ring the doorbell, without me noticing.

[glad rag]

Sam talks rubbish.

Has he fronted up with the £££ yet?:hmm:

[Mach Two]

Hmm. On this occasion, SAM is not talking complete rubbish. I can't vouch for the assumptions about what equipment has been supplied, but the physics of the radar systems of that age are probably about right. Just this once, assume that SAM knows something about SAM Radar.

And his point about radar reflections from closed u/c doos carries weight too.

Hate to be a party pooper. Am I going to get stoned now? And I don't mean in a nice way.

[Tourist]

He is talking about a SAM operator.

Unless I am much mistaken, which is perfectly possible since I know nothing whatsoever about the subject, somebody needs to first find the target to hand to the SAM operator for the killing of the target.

Some kind of wide area radar surveillance needs to first realise that there is a target up there.

Otherwise how does the SAM bloke know roughly where to look?

Those guys might have rather different radars/ interest in undercarriage door shapes.

Since the other stealth aircraft have these doors, we must assume they have a reason. Yes, the drone is a lot smaller than a B2, but it is not that small, and boy is it noisy.

[Just This Once...]

I may have some experience in this area!:ok:

[racedo]

Seems like the US military is unofficially stating that Iran has the drone....

[Mach Two]

Tourist. Yes. I don't argue with any of that.

JTO, sorry. Didn't know where you were coming from.

[iRaven]

A Bloodhound Operator, huh? Here you go in layman's terms on sawtooth edges then...

Any kind of edge perpendicular to radar waves causes them to be diffracted and reflected. In particular, the edges of landing gear doors and other access panels as well as the trailing edges of the wings produce strong radar returns. This effect can be minimized by sweeping the edges so they are not perpendicular to the radar waves. Thus, the edges of doors on the F-117 and other stealth aircraft are covered with small saw-tooths, or diamond-shaped edges that dissipate the radar energy in many directions.

[talkpedlar]

.. whilst not wishing show all of my cards, my own experience tells me that SAM's contributions are, in part at least, convincing and credible.

Perhaps of greater importance, we might reflect on the credibilty of the august Sunday Times... IMHO a rag with a shoddy history of erroneous, ill-conceived and poorly reasearched aviation-related "scoops." TP

[glojo]

Maybe they need spares to fix the iPods they aquired from the Royal Navy.:ok:

Ouch!!!:D

[jamesdevice]

some interesting stuff in todays Iranian propaganda release
You have to try and find the truth from within the rhetoric, but the suggestion of the location, and the number of alleged previous downings is interesting
As also is now the claim that it was shot down - previously they were only claiming some kind of cyber warfare was involved

Fars News Agency :: Iran Warns of Wider Response to US Spy Missions (http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9007276253)

"
Iran Warns of Wider Response to US Spy Missions
TEHRAN (FNA)- Iran's response to US spy drones will not be limited to the country's borders, a military source said after Iranian armed forces shot down another US spy drone yesterday.

Given the flagrant violation of our country's borders, the electronic and operational actions of the Islamic Republic of Iran's Armed Forces against the enemy planes will not be limited to the country's borders," an Iranian official told FNA.
The official had also informed FNA on Sunday afternoon that the country's forces had downed a US RQ-170 Sentinel drone over the Eastern parts of the country.
"An advanced RQ-170 unmanned American spy plane was shot down by Iran's armed forces. It suffered minor damage and is now in possession of Iran's Armed Forces," a military official told FNA on Sunday.
In similar remarks, military sources told Iran's Arabic language Al Alam television that Tehran will intensify its response to the United States' spying operations.
"The Iranian military's response to the American spy drone's violation of our airspace will not be limited to Iran's borders any more," a military source told Al Alam, without giving details.
After a day of silence, both Pentagon and NATO officials acknowledged the shooting down of their Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) in eastern Iran, alleging that the aircraft with a mission to fly over western Afghanistan had gone astray.
The drone had been downed with help from the Iranian military's electronic warfare unit.

The military official warned of a strong and crushing response to any violations of the country's airspace by American drone aircraft.
RQ-170 Sentinel is made by Lockheed Martin and is used for highly important, top secret missions. The UAV was used to keep watch on Osama bin Laden's compound in Pakistan as the raid that killed him was taking place earlier this year.
The surveillance aircraft is equipped with stealth technology, but the US Air Force has not made public any specifics about the drone.
Iran has shot done over a dozen US drones during the last few years.
In January, Iranian forces shot down two pilotless US spy planes over the country's airspace, and after Washington denied the shooting down of its drones, Tehran offered to put them on public display.
In July, Iranian military officials showed Russian experts several US drones shot down in Iran in recent years.
Also in July, Iranian lawmaker Ali Aghazadeh Dafsari said Iran's Islamic Revolution Guard Corps (IRGC) had shot down an unmanned US spy drone that was trying to gather information on an underground uranium enrichment site.
Dafsari said the drone was flying over the Fordo facility near the holy city of Qom in central Iran.
Iranian military official first announced in February 2005 that the United States had been flying surveillance drones over its airspace to spy on its nuclear and military facilities. "

[Lonewolf_50]

Also in July, Iranian lawmaker Ali Aghazadeh Dafsari said Iran's Islamic Revolution Guard Corps (IRGC) had shot down an unmanned US spy drone that was trying to gather information on an underground uranium enrichment site.
I like this one, made me laugh. Can anyone guess as to why? :cool:

What's interesting about all of this friction between Iran and the US is that in the first two to three years of Operation Enduring Freedom (US in Afghanistan) we found ways to work with the Iranians due to some of their concerns in re Afghanistan, and in particular the western sectors of Afghanistan.

What appears to have happened is a drone in Western Afghanistan went wrong, or lost comms linkage to its controlling station and wandered off into the wrong airspace. (Alternately, might have been a deliberate "short change in course to take a peak at something in Iran" of course. Hard to say). So it was shot down, which, were I Iran's Air Defense Authority, I'd do as well.

Their airspace ... it's a fair cop.

[Willard Whyte]

These little UAV's are exactly that

You do know how big a '170 is, don't you?

[iRaven]

The one I saw was about 30-40ft wingspan - just a bit bigger in span than a Hawk I'd say, but an awful lot shorter!

Hardly "little" that's for sure!:=

[fltlt]

It's not the size that matters (honestly) its the RCS. And if you peek around layered ADS you will see how things are handed off from one to another. Totally different than engagement (there it is shoot) end game radar. Then on to do we have the right type of pointy thing with the right acquisition thing to get close enough to do anything. Back to layered defence.

Back to sleep.

[Lima Juliet]

Au contraire, fltlt, size does matter. Stealth measures reduce RCS, so if you have a B747 sized target and apply Stealth techniques you might end up with a Tornado sized RCS (ie. Still pretty frickin' huge), but if you take a Tornado sized target and apply Stealth techniques you might end up with a golf-ball sized RCS(ie. Pretty frickin' small) - so size is applicable with stealth.

Looking at RQ-170 I see a compromise over minor stealth tweaks, economical concerns (full stealth is frickin' expensive and labour intensive) and aerodynamic performance (that looks like a high lift wing with very little stealth). I agree with others on here that RQ-170 is not a full stealth platform design like B2, F117 or F22.

LJ

[Willard Whyte]

Well aware RCS is what counts.

Flying wings are also rather fuel efficient - '170 has few (obvious) stealth features but I'd wager (sportsman's, not cash) that it's a damn economical, and thus enduring, piece of kit.

[Lima Juliet]

Willard, my thoughts exactly - hence my comments on compromise :ok:

[Willard Whyte]

I think we thought and posted the very same within moments of each-other.

[fltlt]

LJ Using tech available, size does not matter as much as you think. It is purely a matter of how you present it. At a certain point the void becomes more important than any other. If you know where to look, and you should, the explanation is there. Just takes time to wade through it all. Unfortunately with all the other advances in detection, RCS is becoming a little passe, as to what it takes to do it properly vs desired effect. Folks tend to forget that the effort is to get as close as you can BEFORE being detected in time for the opposition to do anything effectively. No matter how low the rcs is, you WILL be detected, its the standoff vs system min engagement range/reaction time odds you are trying to beat the house on.

From all the noise out there, sounds like some other folks are worried about the gubbins too.

[SASless]

If we fear the loss of technology....do you ever deploy your assets operationally?

Does that mean we would never dispatch B-2's with bunker busters as both are cutting edge technology?

At some point we have to use our expensive toys or they are money poorly spent.

[FODPlod]

...At some point we have to use our expensive toys or they are money poorly spent.

Implying they have to be used in anger to be cost-effective?

Like our independent nuclear deterrent, you mean?

[Willard Whyte]

We are using them - they are pottering about deterring.

Or at least, it is enough that our potential targets believe they are doing so.

[jamesdevice]

"Like our independent nuclear deterrent, you mean? "

thats a daft argument
A nuclear threat is a latent threat which may work through intimidation.
An unarmed UAV on a recce mission is no threat. Its just an information gathering tool
Comparing the two is just stupid. It may sound a clever argument, but its total xxxx

[dagenham]

Are we not loosing the point

The iranians claim to have hacked into the drone...... That would not require a stealth beating radar....just some big brained spotty teenagers


Knowing the location would surely come from the hack and then all sorts of permutations are possible.

Considering someone else was able to hack the iranian system with worm tech last year, which must have significant security ? The drone route might be possible.

Remember the tennage lad with aspergers, who uncle sam tried to deport last year, succesfully hacked the pentagon looking for et

I hope this is not true..... But if they can keep f14s flying and reengingeer cobras and build nuclear bombs surely we must raise our opinion of the persian empire?

[jamesdevice]

and its only a few weeks since we had reports that computers at the USA command & control centre were poxed up

[Willard Whyte]

I hope this is not true..... But if they can keep f14s flying and reengingeer cobras and build nuclear bombs surely we must raise our opinion of the persian empire?

I have no doubt their Chinese friends have been of invaluable assistance too.

[Tourist]

"Knowing the location would surely come from the hack and then all sorts of permutations are possible.

Considering someone else was able to hack the iranian system with worm tech last year, which must have significant security ? The drone route might be possible.

Remember the tennage lad with aspergers, who uncle sam tried to deport last year, succesfully hacked the pentagon looking for et"


Or, just maybe a single engined UAV had an engine failure?

Have you heard of Occams Razor?:confused:

[fltlt]

Many many years ago there were conversations had about not bringing back the rpv (yes, I am that old) as the "enemy may follow it (!) leading up to "We should place explosives in it" so we can a: Dive on a too or b: Wander off at min fuel and push the big red button. Problem solved. Then along come the ah but brigade. Explosives you say, then here spend the next month reading these regs and reqs. At the end of which, with eyes bleeding, everyone went, no thanks. Plus a few little things like weight/space, etc.

When one is operating in an area where you can a: Call in the Marines (fig) to recover or b: Call in an airstrike to destroy (hopefully) then little to no attention is paid to the old charlie drake song "My boomerang won't come back".
When the little sod decides to beat feet quicker than you can dispatch something to shoot it down (and you may not know the direction it hoofed off in) and enters (violates) another country's airspace, one which you really aren't too friendly with, then many "Oh Crap, Oh Crap" recitations are heard and the options list drops to zero.
That is unfortunately the reality that uav/ucav/u whatever v bring with them.

[jamesdevice]

OK, this is old news, but relevant
Suggestions that military systems can't be hacked are just gung-ho balderdash
Computer Virus Tracking US Drones (http://www.military.com/news/article/computer-virus-tracking-us-drones.html?comp=1198882887570&rank=1)

" October 08, 2011Military.com|by Bryant Jordan

Who’s watching the watchers?
That’s the question the defense officials are asking with the discovery that a computer virus has infected the U.S.-based control stations of Predator and Reaper drones, tracking every keystroke made by the pilots as they guide the vehicles on their missions.....


"he security specialists aren’t sure whether the virus and its so-called “keylogger” payload were introduced intentionally or by accident, according to Wired. The magazine’s source said it could be a common piece of malware that just happened to make its way into UAVs’ networks.
They also don’t know how far it has spread, but they believe it has reached both into classified systems at the base, meaning that some secret data may have been captured by the keylogger and relayed to someone outside the authorized chain of command, the magazine was told."

[Tourist]

"When the little sod decides to beat feet quicker than you can dispatch something to shoot it down (and you may not know the direction it hoofed off in) and enters (violates) another country's airspace, one which you really aren't too friendly with, then many "Oh Crap, Oh Crap" recitations are heard and the options list drops to zero."


Does anybody seriously think that anybody uses a stealth UAV in their own airspace?
Does anybody seriously think that it was not supposed to be over Iran?
Can anybody give me a good reason to use such a UAV over friendly territory?

[glojo]

I am not a 'computah' whizz so please forgive me if this question seems daft.

Why would an operator of a UAV have his controls connected to a 'computah' that is also connected to the outside World?

I wonder how long it will be before the Chinese are churning these things out by the gross and when will they get onto Ebay?

[t43562]

I am not a hacker but I am a software engineer and I am aware of the generalities.

You need something common like MS Windows with thousands of people having a go at it from many angles. Work is not done by spotty teenagers but by quite seriously skilled people who have experience and create tools. The teenagers usually use tools made by others.

Many attacks succeed because doors are left wide open for them - e.g the practise of people having administrator privileges by default means that any program you launch can start modifying the system. This is pretty basic but it has been the case for years with older versions of Windows for reasons of ease of use. Other attacks happen because known flaws are not corrected on all computers and if you simply try 1000 old tricks you eventually find one that works.

It is a lot harder to attack an unknown and rare system (surely the rq-170 doesn't run Windows?) and harder still to do it when you only have one article to attack for some limited time period.

I am more inclined to think of attacks involving jamming or signal corruption or something like that (possibly because I don't understand that area well).

Most complex systems cannot be bug free and bugs often lurk in error-handling routines because people almost never manage to test all the possible combinations of mishaps. I am wondering what drones do when something goes wrong with their communications. I can imagine triggering a failure by luck.

Espionage would help that luck a lot, of course.

[FFP]

tracking every keystroke made by the pilots as they guide the vehicles on their missions.....

In my humble experience, I would wager that you could extrapolate the square root of nothing (polite version) from such keystrokes. Guiding the vehicles around would just give a load of numbers as they changed height, heading etc. Just sayin.......

I am wondering what drones do when something goes wrong with their communications

My understanding is that if it loses it's communications, then it has a set mission it would go and do, taking it home, until it got link back.

[dagenham]

Agree with all the comments

A few points of interest

1. The us have often sent top secret stealth designs over unhospitable terrain... Remember tag board the d21 drone programme from the sixties. Bits of it are on display in china. This was mini sr71 with a single engine, ram and stealth.

2. Occams razor can also work the other way if the engine is reliable then the only other option is spotty teenagers.

3. Tehran was quite capable of adapting f14 etc without china... For all the rhetoric they have done quite well.

[jamesdevice]

the infection at Creech was - allegedly - a keylogger normally found on PC networks and was normally used for obtaining user names / passwords for gaming accounts. However it could equally be used for capturing command keystrokes.
I can quite easily see how a few hours keystroke records could divulge enough information for a third party to at least disrupt control of a UAV
That doesn't explain how to break into the system itself though - that all depends on just how exposed to the world wide interweb the command and control system is.
But essentially, to anyone with the required skill, if its connected, its accessible.

What you have to understand is that virus / malware writing is not nowadays the hobby of a few spotty teens in their bedrooms. Its big business. A typical Russian post-doctorate computer scientist can earn more money writing malware for the Russian mafia than he can in industry. For someone like that, the malware industry is a real genuine career option

[dagenham]

Agreed just using sty as an example.... If someone can hack sony, microsoft and apple i would assume defence is also more than possible.

Afterall if you can recieve the transmissions to the drone you are on your way to decoding and controlling

Nothing is totally secure....just ask ultra

[Tourist]

Oh my god.
You have all moved into SAM territory.

"if the engine is reliable "

Do you have any idea how many normal UAVs the US and ourselves have lost in Afghanistan without any help from hackers!?

They fall out of the sky with amazing rapidity.

Why would any sane person suspect different with this one?



"equally be used for capturing command keystrokes"

Total pseudo-knowledge gibberish.

You don't know how it is commanded.
You don't know where it is commanded from.
You don't know how the datalink works.
You don't know if indeed it has a datalink!

People need to caveat their actual knowledge a bit more on here.
Perhaps headings of:

TOTAL SPECULATION

EDUCATED GUESS

I DESIGNED IT

I WAS THE TEST PILOT

I'M ON DAY RELEASE

I HAVE USED SIMILAR

I AM 12

NO IDEA BUT I AM AN EDUCATED INTELLIGENT PERSON WHO USUALLY GOES WITH OCCAM'S RAZOR


(that's me, by the way:))

[jamesdevice]

Tourist
I think thats all taken for granted. No-one HAS said that the drone was hacked.
All that has been pointed out is that if anyone claims that hacking a UAV is impossible, then they are living in a fools paradise.
Its possible. What no-one knows is whether it has happened or not
NO computer system is secure if its part of a network

[fltlt]

You really have no idea do you? Not "friendly" territory, but an area/airspace/battlespace over which you have nominal control ie: the ability to go and get the pieces or drop a guided munition on the remnants. In the past both have been employed on the same hva, for damn good reasons.
When ones toy crosses another country's borders, and you are not really sure whereabouts it ended up, things get really complicated. Especially when that country doesn't like you very much and the international repercussions/ramifications of going to find it/get it/destroy it are enormous. Remember, the days of going in guns blazing are long gone.

I am going to hibernate now. Y'all have fun, you hear.

[dagenham]

Tourist, I think somone might have hacked your toys and pram interface

Come on this is just idle chit chat.....no need to react so badly.

Lets look back, no one or very few believed they ( india, pakistan, israel, south africa, north korea etc etc etc ) could build a bomb.....but they did

No one believed a stealth fighter could be shot down until it happened.


Yes i agree uavs fall out of the sky and so do all single engined planes at sometime. It is probably the likely cause........but what if.....and if it was should we not consider it and be prepared? Just because most of us don't understand it does not mean it is unlikely

Occam's razor also says something about once you have ruled out most things the single thing you are left with and however unlikely that might be, is the probable cause.

I happen to agree with you.....but listen to the device man he has some good imsight.

[rh200]

US RQ-170 drone missing in Iran was part of CIA spy operation | Space, Military and Medicine | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/us-drone-missing-in-iran-was-part-of-cia-spy-operation/story-fn5fsgyc-1226216200218#ixzz1fowg7Fi2)

According to a senior US military source with intimate knowledge of the Sentinel drone, the aircraft likely "wandered" into Iranian air space after losing contact with its handlers and is presumed to be intact since it is programmed to fly level and find a place to land, rather than crashing.

Maybe I'm missing something, wouldn't the last thing you would want your "drone" to do if loosing contact, is to find some where to land? I'm suspecting bullsh!t. I mean imagine it, you would not have to take control, just jam comm's and whalla comes into land at your base.

If it is the case the Iranians would be p!ssing them selves laughing.

[jamesdevice]

https://www.infosecisland.com/blogview/18536-Was-Irans-Downing-of-RQ-170-Related-to-the-Malware-Infection-at-Creech-AFB.html


"Note: The following assessment comes from chapter 16 of the 2nd edition of Inside Cyber Warfare, due out this month:
In 2010 the Iranian Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) set up its first official cyber warfare division.Since then, its budget and focus has indicated the intention of growing these cyber warfare capabilities.
Education is considered a top priority in the strategy, with increased attention to computer engineering-specific cyber security programs. The IRGC budget on cyber capabilities is estimated to be US$76 million.
The IRGC’s cyber warfare capabilities are believed to include the following weapons: compromised counterfeit computer software,wireless data communications jammers, computer viruses and worms, cyber data collection exploitation, computer and network reconnaissance, and embedded Trojan time bombs.
The cyber personnel force is estimated to be 2,400, with an additional 1,200 in reserves or at the militia level. In June 2011 Iran announced that the Khatam al-Anbiya Base, which is tasked with protecting Iranian cyberspace, is now capable to counter any cyber attack from abroad, a claim that will likely be tested soon given the volatile nature of cyberspace. "


I'm not saying the Iranians did it, but we must be open to the possibility of it happening

[500N]

All they are doing is copying what Israel and the US do covertly.

[jamesdevice]

Agreed, but that does not diminish the threat

[misd-agin]

Wouldn't it be nice to have hyper sonic missiles?

Iran reports they've forced a drone down....unexplained explosion 6 minutes later. :D

Or better yet, space based lasers.

Iran reports they've forced a drone down....discover that it had an internal meltdown defense system. :ok:

Anyone have Tom Clancy's phone number? :O

[Not_a_boffin]

More Dale Brown territory methinks

[pontifex]

Dagenham

I have no doubt at all that the Iranians' technical ability as a nation is every bit as good as the best we can field in the "West". Many years ago, when we were friends with the land of the peacock throne, I operated Valiants on detachments to various Iranian Air Force bases. If ever we had a problem it was rapidly sorted by the base engineers. They could make parts overnight in their workshops that were as good as any replacement item would have been had we waited for it to have been shipped out from the UK. They were great people too. I honestly believe that national characteristics don't change and that, if it could get from under the ayatollas' yoke, Iran would become a vibrant, progressive nation.

[Green Flash]

A thought & probably not a good one but lets say the Iranians have a crashed UAV in their back garden. I wonder, was it a plant? (sorry, pun not intended). Was it deliberatly lost in their general direction? Have they been given something to put them off the scent, a bit of avionic disinformation? WW1 and a bag full of maps were 'lost' in the Middle East and the other side bought it. Are they all banging holes in each others backs and looking the wrong way? Shut up GF?

[Tourist]

"I have no doubt at all that the Iranians' technical ability as a nation is every bit as good as the best we can field in the "West"."




Then you are strangely deluded.




Give me one example to defend your assertion.

Show me an aircraft to "every bit as good as" the F22 or Typhoon etc.

Show me a microchip production plant

Show me any indigenous industry that matches the best of the west.

Show me a university publishing cutting edge science.

Just one will do.


You are being silly.

I agree with the rest of your statement about them being a nice bunch though.

[Mach Two]

Quite right, Tourist. The point is that aerospace technology has moved on so far that engineers (and I don't doubt they had/have some good ones) can no longer knock up a part and replace something.


And I like your post grading system. Could you add:

I CAME OFF MY MEDICATION WHEN I CLEARLY SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE.


There is nothing wrong with the ordinary Iranian people. Yes, shrug off the yoke (like it's that easy) and they will be a good country.


M2

[Tourist]

Yes, I really should since it would get a lot of use at the moment.:p

[dagenham]

Tourist you are quite right to level the field a little but...consider the following

1. They have made umpteen hundred centrifuges to purify atomic material

2. With the twin tailed f5 they have demonstrated the ability to make high grade forged castings

3. Keeping the f14 flying, they have demonstrated an ability to make some high grade fourth gen tech conitune to work with no om support. Worth googling some of the articles on these squadrons during the iraq iran war. Very effective fighters and very ingeniuos solutions to the embargo.


Not of my meds or any way linked to the iranians....but do believe in not underestimating my potentail foe. There are many many bright people there and i would not want to under estimate them.....

I am going back to my meds now as nursey is calling

[Tourist]

"1. They have made umpteen hundred centrifuges to purify atomic material "

Something even we could do 670yrs ago. Without help.

"2. With the twin tailed f5 they have demonstrated the ability to make high grade forged castings"

Well done, they can forge basic metal. Did you see the Rolls Royce engine programme?

"Keeping the f14 flying, they have demonstrated an ability to make some high grade fourth gen tech conitune to work with no om support. Worth googling some of the articles on these squadrons during the iraq iran war. Very effective fighters and very ingeniuos solutions to the embargo."

F14 was designed in the 60s. That is 50 years ago. Half a century. And they can't build and design them, they can just keep some of them flying.

It is most certainly not 4th gen

The Iranis are just as smart and ingenious as anybody else on the planet, but they are most certainly not technologically advanced.

I never underestimate them, but it is not their tech that we should be concerned about so much as clever asymetric ideas.

[racedo]

It is most certainly not 4th gen

4th gen meets 1st gen fired ammunition - pretty much same result as 4th gen aircraft meeting 4th gen fired ammunition.

I just see the hypcrisy that somehow Iran are the bad guys because they look after their interests where as Qatar (WTF are they) send troops to Libya in breach of UN and everybody loves them.

[Tourist]

"4th gen meets 1st gen fired ammunition - pretty much same result as 4th gen aircraft meeting 4th gen fired ammunition"

Gosh, that's deep.

No....wait
Deep isn't the word I'm looking for.


Obtuse, that's it!

The reason for developing 4th gen hardware is so that the bad guys never get to use their 1st gen bullets on it as they are too busy eating 4th gen bullets.


"I just see the hypcrisy that somehow Iran are the bad guys because they look after their interests where as Qatar (WTF are they) send troops to Libya in breach of UN and everybody loves them. "

Wow, that's deep....

Wait, are you a hippy?

[500N]

Tourist,

"4th gen meets 1st gen fired ammunition - pretty much same result as 4th gen aircraft meeting 4th gen fired ammunition"

That's an arrogant statement that commanders the world over who have under estimated the enemy have lived to regret.

More than one way to take out 4th gen hardware without firing bullets / missiles at them.


The US military, one if not the worlds most advanced ..............

A bit of ANFO and det cord and hey presto, defeat the latest tanks with the best armour - so back on level playing fields.

Apache, latest technology, brought down by AA fire from old AA guns as well as RPG's, very much old technology.


Agree that if Iran was not under the regime, they would be a very progressive country. My father did many trips to Iran prior to the revolution, particularly Isfahan to help them build some plant or other. probably glad they didn't finish since it was metal related (IMI).
.

[dagenham]

Tourist are you taking your meds?

[Lonewolf_50]

A few bits in the news on this side of the pond indicate that someone in Washington is admitting/suggesting that CIA has been sending various drones over Iran with some frequency for the past "i am not quite sure how many" years.

This puzzles me.

1. Is this OPDEC? Is this the first, and they are covering up a first mission gone badly wrong with a smokescreen?

2. Why would you admit this, even if it were true? When you confirm it, you save your opponent/enemy time and effort trying to confirm what they suspect. Maybe I am too much a product of the Cold War, but that's, to me, a strategic stupidity. Keep 'em guessing!

3. Why does "CIA spokesperson" exist as a job title? The most pressing part of their job is keeping themselves in STFU status. Let someone else in Washington do the talking.

4. If they've been flying drones over Iran for some time now, what are drones offering as collectors that some of the other platforms, long used, don't? That last is a thought piece, and not really looking for an answer here.

This story smells more and more of cod fish oil.

[500N]

lonewolf

STFU is not something the Obama Gov't is very good at across the board.
Something to do with equality and everybody having access to the same ?:O

Better to say nothing and as you say, keep them guessing and expending energy on trying to find out.

.

[Lonewolf_50]

While what you say is true, 500, the Bush/Rummy "can't keep my mouth shut since I have to tell everyone how clever we are" team drove me to distraction with their weekly OPSEC violations while first 1, then 2, major armed conflicts were underway under their auspices.

I was reading stuff in the open press, at one point, that I was operating on which was classified with at least an S ... and some $^#%@$%!(*#$% had invited a reporter into (location X) and done a PR puff piece.

Don't get me started ... hmmm, seems I have already started ... Washington DC, since about the day W. J. Clinton was elected, has been "I have no idea what OPSEC is" personified. It is not confined to the current crowd.

[500N]

W J Clinton
Well, what do you expect, if he can't keep his pants on, what hope has he of keeping his mouth shut:O

The one's that got me what cataloging in the press over time the weak points of various hardware. OK, everything has weak points but IMHO, no need to make it easy for everyone - especially those in the future that were not "on the ground" in Iraq to find out for themselves.

[Lima Juliet]

Drone, drone, DRONE!

Oh, FFS, it's not a flippin' drone. Drones were so-called for their fixed pitch noise as they flew past for anti-aircraft "ack ack" training and also for being called the De-Havilland Queen Bee like this one below:

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedkingdom/aircraft/trainer/de-havilland-tiger-moth-trainer/de-havilland-tiger-moth-trainer-02.jpg

So drones are dumb target aircraft for surface to air practise or even air to air (like Jindivik or QF-4s).

RQ-170s are Remotely Piloted Air Systems (RPAS) or Unmanned Air Systems (UAS) and not a "drone" - although, this one may have been shot down so it might be deemed a "drone" after all :}

Lesson over

LJ

[Willard Whyte]

Semantics.

Since you understood the intent the term 'drone' obviously fits!

[Lima Juliet]

@Willy Whyte

I also understand the intent of the word "willy" so in your head it would obviously fit! :E

LJ

PS Banter mode off...

[500N]

Lonewolf

Here is exactly what we are talking about.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/08/world/middleeast/drone-crash-in-iran-reveals-secret-us-surveillance-bid.html?hp

"Iran said over the weekend that it had recovered the RQ-170, the same drone deployed over Osama bin Laden’s compound before he was killed in May. Senior intelligence officials were disturbed that the drone was publicly discussed in the coverage of the Bin Laden raid, in part because of the fear of exposing its use over Iran."


Better to say nothing.You never know how much a slip up over realsing info about it on the Bin Laden raid lead to Iran adding 2 and 2 together and deciding to do something about it - ie if it's there, can we bring it down.

Just my HO.

That whole Bin Laden's dead and this is how we did it crowing was a SF disaster.

[BEagle]

Yup, there is general acceptance that any unmanned (unpersonned...:rolleyes:) aircraft is a 'drone'. Apart, perhaps, from the drone community itself.

This is presumably because most people are fed up with the drone people inventing yet another acronym / abbreviation every few weeks....RPV, UAV, UCAV, UAS....WTF? It's a sodding DRONE, pure and simple

[Mach Two]

Well, looks like we've temporarily run out of stuff to talk about so squabbling instead.

Now BEagle, you're right, it must never be an Unmanned Air Vehicle. Totally non-PC and unacceptable. It can be an Unpopulated Air Vehicle or even Unpersonned, as you say.

Anyway, a drone is a bee.

500N, hadn't seen that article before.

M2

[Widger]

The term RPAS was invented by the two winged master race of Her majesty's RAF for two reasons:

1. In the face of many comments from Harry Public and the press, to emphasise that there is a qualified human being operating the vehicle, especially when decisions are made to drop a weapon or not.

2. To ensure that the said two winged master race is still relevant in the 21st century in the face of more automation. I mean you cannot have Scopies or Air traffikers or even worse simple sailors or god forbid, artillery types operating these things can you? Can you? I mean for a start, they don't have natty green overalls to wear do they?

[Mach Two]

And, of course, keep getting flying pay.

TAKE COVER!!!!!!

[500N]

M2

Re "500N, hadn't seen that article before."

Neither had I, it was only published in today's NY Times newspaper
and on my daily read, I happened to notice it and thought it very relevant
to this thread.

Even the "Senior intelligence officials" call it a drone !!! :O

[APG63]

M2, don't mention flying pay. You know what will happen!

[Courtney Mil]

APG, now you've mentioned flying pay as well. Stop it!

[APG63]

I only mentioned it because Mach Two did. Anyway, the point is that drone (or whatever) drivers get flying pay to do it. So that would be why they have to wear green overalls.

[Mach Two]

Well, I won't mention it for a while. I'm off to a sandy place for a few days. See you children later. TTFN.

[Wrathmonk]

BBC News - Iran shows film of captured US drone (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16098562)

[500N]

2 other interesting photos from different angles.

Fars News Agency :: Iran Displays Downed US Drone (http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9007276579)

Fars News Agency :: IRGC Commander Explains Downing of US Stealth Drone (http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9007276581)

[Tourist]

If it is undamaged, then why are they hiding the underside?

[glojo]

If it is undamaged, then why are they hiding the underside?

Would that be where all the sensitive equipment would be located?

Could it be that this has been removed?

[chopper2004]

Looks too much like a model model tbh too many smooth surfaces and like propped upas in the models you see on stands at the likes of Farnborough and at Paris.

As a kid when building the Matchbox/Revell/Airfix/Hasagewa 1.72 kit models, had borrowed a book from the local library on how to create the perfect kit model and diorama and how to maximise use of a camera.

One page was on how to use a spacecraft model or satellite, suspend it with string on a blackboard background with stars dotted, and positioning of the camera on tripod with regard to distance and angle to produce a semi convincing picture of a satellite in space. Like the pre CGI and special effects used in films from the 40s onwards to the advent of George Lucas.

Anyhow it be nice if the Iranians put a couple of personnel beside said vehicle to determine scale and size.

[BossEyed]

Anyhow it be nice if the Iranians put a couple of personnel beside said vehicle to determine scale and size.

I think they heard you. :ooh:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/57215000/jpg/_57215512_jex_1259017_de27.jpg

[glojo]

Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/08/iranian-tv-airs-purported-images-downed-us-drone/) has done its best to play down this claim but even they have now had to recognise what has happened.

One official told Fox News on Thursday that the incident is a huge loss and makes the top-secret helicopter tail lost during the Usama bin Laden raid in Pakistan "look like a pittance." The official said there are real fears the Iranians will share this technology with the Russians and the Chinese, in addition to using it themselves.

[chopper2004]

Cheers Boss :) now they can telepathically read my mind what next? :)

Anything else we can deduce from the pics?

[Willard Whyte]

That one of the blokes was in Octopussy?

http://www.universalexports.net/Movies/Graphics/13-images/toro.jpg

[Courtney Mil]

Oh, God. We've got two parallel universes going in here. This and the thread about the huge bomb thing.

Anyway, Chopper2004, did you think that the opening pictures looked like a tiny scale model? And then the other pictures looked like a different scale? I did. Just doesn't look right somehow.

[TWT]

Video: Iran Shows Off Captured U.S. Drone, Swears It's No Fake | Danger Room | Wired.com (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/12/iran-drone-video/)

[chopper2004]

Courtney

Tbh I wasn't sure until Bosseye put me in the right direction that the pic with personnel around, that it looked too presentable too tidy and the flags and curtain behind it appeared as a diorama.

And the sceptIsm / disbelief behind their claim to have shot down a UAV a Sentinel of all things at the beginning could have been seen as propaganda?

[TheWestCoast]

After watching that a couple times, some observations.

Looks like it's been painted in primer. The color and gloss of the paint just doesn't look like something of US origin.

Looks like the wings have fallen off and been stuck back on - looking at the lumps/lines just outboard of the overwing pod structures.

Appears to be a dent/hole in the leading edge of the left wing.

Interesting that the underside is shrouded in banners.

My guess - it crashed and broke up. The Iranians stuck it all back together and had to prop it up on something to make it appear to be in one piece as the undercarriage was damaged beyond use. The banners conceal this structure. They then repainted it to conceal scorch marks/scratches/scrapes etc.

[glojo]

If America is now finally admitting they have lost this UAV and the Iranians have claimed they have recovered it then what are we suggesting?

I have never seen one of these so called stealth drones but I was disappointed to see how flimsy the thing looks but the bottom line is the US admits it is their vehicle......

It is surprising that a foreign Power can over-ride the signal of the operator and then amazingly, this foreign power can then allegedly take control of the aircraft and land the thing. First North Korea capture a US Intelligence Gathering ship click here (http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/us-navy-north-korea/2007/01/25/) Then of course we recently had the Chinese capture an EP-3E click here (http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/6/7/193114.shtml)

Fox News is what I call a US propaganda channel as opposed from a News channel. At first they were adamant that the US military had lost their UAV over Afghanistan but now even this broadcaster is confirming this act. Surely it has to be accepted Iran really does have this UAV especially as the US are not denying any of the reports. Click this (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/06/drone-lost-in-iran-was-joint-cia-military-reconnaissance-plane/)

Does the thing look 'wonky' because it has been gutted and is now held together by Gaffa tape? I have looked on Ebay but so far 'No trace' of any bits and pieces of ex US high tech hardware.

[jamesdevice]

looks to me like some kind of attempt at misdirection. Send in a cheapo plastic model and let the Iranians think they've captured something useful, while at the same time keep the real ones flying safely
If the enemy is looking for the wrong aircraft it won't find the right one

[racedo]

looks to me like some kind of attempt at misdirection. Send in a cheapo plastic model and let the Iranians think they've captured something useful, while at the same time keep the real ones flying safely
If the enemy is looking for the wrong aircraft it won't find the right one

Alternatively the SNAFU theory is more like it where assumming that nobody can stop it sounds more plausible..............and then it all goes TU.

[jamesdevice]

I thought the same until I saw those photos - the aircraft simply looks like a cheap model, and I don't believe that paint job. Its almost as if they wanted it shot down.

Of course history would favour the SNAFU model. After all, the CIA have past history at this - Gary Powers and the other Taiwanese U-2 losses

[500N]

jamesdevice
Not too shabby an idea.
What will let it down will be some blabber mouth in the US Gov't crowing about duping the Iranian's.

[chopper2004]

On the militaryphotos.net website, on the recent pages, theres close up photos of the vehicle on display and someone's superimposed what the dimensions could be as the air force chief of staff is standing beside it.

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/2927/rq1705.jpg

[jamesdevice]

doesn't look much like the supposed 28 metre wingspan does it?

[500N]

It does look "plasticy"

What are the 2 lumps on either side of the air intake / engine ?

I haven't seen them on any other photos of the various UAV's
so if someone can point me in the direction, it would be appreciated.


I am still very skeptical that this is the real deal. at this stage I'll hold back my judgement as jamesdevice's suggestion has some merit.

[Nige321]

That intake grill looks just, well... wrong...:8

[Nige321]

What are the 2 lumps on either side of the air intake / engine ?

SatCom aerials??

[500N]

Excuse the thread drift and along the lines of conspiracy theories but what are the chances of TWO Nige's, both from Brum, one currently located on the other side of the world, posting one after the other on the same thread.:O

I'm sure SAM will have an answer.

[jamesdevice]

Morphic resonanace field

[Nige321]

Why am I on the other side of the world?
How many Brums are there...?:uhoh:

[500N]

Nige321

Re " Why am I on the other side of the world?
How many Brums are there...?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif"


My bad, I am located on the other side of the world - as in Australia, that location often called "Down Under":O.

I am a POM, born in Birmingham, lived close by. Do you just live in Brum or were you born there ?


And re "How many Brums are there...?", I know of at least one Birmingham in the US, which from memory is in Alabama.

[TheWestCoast]

Those overwing "lumps" appear assymetrical.

And that dude's hat is just all wrong.

[jamesdevice]

so is the "aircraft". That protective grille over the engine intake isn't much more than concrete reinforcement wire

[TEEEJ]

Higher resolution images at following links.

http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/damage.jpg

http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/1.jpg

http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/2.jpg

http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/3.jpg

http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/4.jpg

From

Exclusive: first high-resolution close-up pictures of the stealth drone in Iran. With signs of belly landing. « The Aviationist (http://theaviationist.com/2011/12/08/stealth-pix/)

[jamesdevice]

its not big enough
the RQ-170 is variously reported as 26-28 metres in wingspan
Thats barely 28 FEET across.
Either is a 1/3 scale model or its a previously unreported drone
If its a model, who made it? Who is behind the disinformation?

Looking at it, one gets the impression that it doesn't have enough space to carry the fuel for a long range jet engined mission.

[500N]

james
If it is a model, anybody could have made it pretty quickly.
A skilled worker with either fibreglass, carbon fibre, resin,
slap it together, bog it up, sand it, prime it and paint it.

Send it to China and they would have a finished model back to you in a week,
at the same time asking how many thousands you want.

"With signs of belly landing"
Who is pulling what ?

One dark patch on the edge of a wing does not show signs of a belly landing.
it could be anything.


Re "Looking at it, one gets the impression that it doesn't have enough space to carry the fuel for a long range jet engined mission. "

Going with your theory which I think MIGHT have some merit, it doesn't need to do a long range jet engined mission, it only had to take off from Afghan and fly a couple of hundred kms to Iran, if that. (I don't know the distances from the airfields in Afghan to the Iranian border or just across it).

Just my HO.
.

[jamesdevice]

" it only had to take off from Afghan and fly a couple of hundred kms to Iran"
And thats assuming it wasn't simply chucked out the back of a C-130 or C-17

the big question is...... is it an an Iranian fake or a CIA fake?

[Andu]

Wouldn't it be wonderful to find out that a couple of bored to snores USAF noncommissioned techies slapped it all together in the fibreglass shop and dumped it off the ramp of a Herc near the Iranian border and are now sitting back in Kandahar enjoying the fun?

It wouldn't be the first time someone has done such things. (I'll bet a rather large sum that there are a lot of people in Washington currently wishing to God that this was so!!!)

[500N]

"" it only had to take off from Afghan and fly a couple of hundred kms to Iran"
And thats assuming it wasn't simply chucked out the back of a C-130 or C-17

the big question is...... is it an an Iranian fake or a CIA fake?"


I was going to put something about throwing it out the back of a Herc or C17
but then decided against it.

How is this for a scenario ? (Assuming the US C-130's can install the rollers in the back like we can on Aust C-130's.)

Load up the Drone on one of those pallets (like you load up a Zodiac Inflatable for a para load follow), explosive bolts on the pallet connected to an altimeter.

Push the whole thing out, Parachute opens (you hope, it gets very messy if they don't), the whole lot floats down, altimeter sets off explosive bolts so the pallet drops away, Drone still attached to parachute continues float down, at 20 feet or so, explosive bolts jettison the parachute and the device drops to earth, breaks the undercarriage thereby providing a few scratch marks on the belly to make it look like a semi crash landing.

Parachute blows off into the distance never to be seen again or connected to the drone.

Re " Iranian fake or a CIA fake"

Iran and the CIA are working together to dupe the world:O


Jesus, I sound like SAM:O

I think I better get my coat and Tin foil hat after that effort !

[jamesdevice]

oh bugger theres a black Range Rover outside...

mind you, last time I had to have words with "the ministry" they were driving a rusty red Montego with a Rover V8 somehow fitted in
So maybe its a false alarm

[500N]

The writing on the banners says

“We’ll trample America underfoot” and “The U.S. cannot do a damn thing.”


Andu
I like the thought process, that would be funny.

[jamesdevice]

now all we need is for the yanks to admit its a fake. Even if its not
It makes the Iranians look like dickheads either way for believing it

[Big Pistons Forever]

The only real "drone" here is from the moronic commentary from the TV talking heads.:yuk:

To think the Iranians can pass off a model worthy of one of the lamer "Star Trek" episodes circa 1967, and the main stream media are calling it the "real thing", boggles the mind :rolleyes:

[Pittsle]

By the way: For me the resemblance to the Horten HO 229 is very obvious.
It flew (manned) in 1944 and was designed for Stealth operation.

Horten Ho 229 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229)

[MrWomble]

What I find interesting and supportive of these suggestions is that the photos are only of the exterior. Iran's claims seem to be over having found the airframe overlooking the fact this is meant to be a secret "spy drone".

Where are photos of, or even suggestions that they have, anything from the inside? Engine parts, landing gear, let alone any "secret" recon, satcom or uplink equipment.

Even if some parts have been shipped to China or Russia I can't imagine they'd want the collection of scrap metal which always falls out of a crashed aircraft.

Something in this story is missing.

[Deaf]

Something happened involving a UAV, sources are:

Iran - not credible C4
USA - even less credible D5

[L J R]

You guys DO know that the Iranians DO have an RPA program....They DO have relatively sophisticated UAS, and DO have knowledge and application of Stealth........Don't you.

[dc1968]

Quote via Bloomberg...


The Pentagon and the Central Intelligence Agency declined to comment yesterday on whether the aircraft the Iranians displayed (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/214542.html) is real. A U.S. defense official, however, said the plane appears to be an actual RQ-170, though he said U.S. experts were still examining the video.

Two U.S. officials with knowledge of the RQ-170 program said that some details, including the seams on the drone’s fuselage, its access ports and its unusual air intake, appear to confirm that it’s genuine.

Iran Shows Off Downed U.S. Spy Drone on TV - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-09/iran-shows-off-downed-spy-drone-as-u-s-assesses-technology-loss.html)

[glojo]

This is reminding me of all the hysteria regarding the demise of Bin Laden..

'He is not dead and if he is produce the body'..

When the pictures are shown of the body we then here screams about..

'It could be an impersonator and this is all just a US publicity stunt!'

To ask for Iran to produce the inner workings of that aircraft is probably NOT going to happen and who knows where those parts are or even what country they are in.

Does anyone SERIOUSLY believe that
a) Iran would be so silly as to produce a home made fibre glass replica of something they had not seen?

b) Would the USA over fly Iranian air space with a toy replica full of advanced technology just to 'fool' the opposition?

With the greatest of respect to all our resident experts:

c)How long would it take for Iran to figure out they had only captured a toy replica?

Iran had this thing in their possession days before they went public and I am guessing they were not playing tiddly winks during that period.

I am NOT saying you folks are wrong when you suggest this is a fake but the reasons for your suppositions make no real sense especially as both parties are in agreement about this captured vehicle. One side states one of theirs is missing over Iran and the other side claimed to have captured it days before the US came clean!

How often have we heard the US denying their aircraft have been shot down and the reasons for it crashing were due to technical issues?? Yes a thousand times yes we all accept that drones along with other aircraft do have technical issues, but to me this thing was very cleverly captured by Iran and it looks like they hit the jackpot by capturing a state of the art RQ-170.

My main concern is why there appears to be no inbuilt technology that destroys the thing if anyone attempts to meddle with it.

I do have an open mind regarding this things authenticity but so far the observations being forwarded to denounce it are less than convincing. The exterior material looks so cheap and the lines just look so amateurish, but who am I to judge what is real and what is false.

[L J R]

and those who remember the 'Beast of Kandahar' will also remember its colour, the 'smears' from jet exhaust and other 'working' parts.....

[sled dog]

Was Elvis controlling it from a grassy knoll in Dallas ? :rolleyes:

[BossEyed]

glojo, I absolutely agree with the sentiment of you post, but a point of order:

This is reminding me of all the hysteria regarding the demise of Bin Laden..

'He is not dead and if he is produce the body'..

When the pictures are shown of the body we then here screams about..

'It could be an impersonator and this is all just a US publicity stunt!'

When did that happen, then?

[glojo]

hi Boss eyed,
I do hope I have not caused any misunderstandings regarding my ramblings. I am NOT for one millisecond suggesting that Bin Laden is anything other than deceased. I am attempting to suggest that no matter what proof anyone presents there will always be those that will not accept it.

The one photo that has been released (posted in another thread) is what appears to be an amateur photoshop job as the bottom half of his face including the beard is identical to other photos of him.

Burial at sea within 24hrs would just not be done with the body of Osama bin Laden after almost 10yrs of searching!

The next terror attack will be big and will occur soon in my opinion and whenit does, the perpetrators will be tracked down to country 'X' and so will begin the next full scale war. Apologies for the incorrect user-name ;)

There were those who for many weeks after that event claimed that this man was still alive and I guess if we could be bothered to Google this rubbish then we will very quickly find a lot more of these silly posts that all spout what I term as 'Drivel'

The Americans mounted a very successful operation and carried out the mission they were tasked with.

Regarding this drone then I have a very open mind but when America states they lost it, Iran states they found it then who am I to state anything different without being in possession of any proof.

The thing does look like a toy but I have seen toys that look far more professional in their appearance click here but having said that then what does it matter how it looks as long as it performs the task it was designed for.

[NutLoose]

It wouldn't be an issue if it was a British drone, the radio control would have all but destroyed itself when it hit the ground and all the valves shattered, the software although poorly encryted would turn out to be a copy of Windows 95 running a pirated copy of Flight Sim 98 and the navigational software based on Google Map would probably be an older version of that on President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's mobile phone..... As for the package, heck you can pick up the old Zenith E cameras on Ebay for a pittance these days.

Still, at least the US will now be able to source cheap spares when the Chinese start producing them.
Strange how it appears to be devoid of any National insignia, given the USA's habit of slapping stars and bars on everything that moves...

:E

[glojo]

It wouldn't be an issue if it was a British drone, the radio control would have all but destroyed itself when it hit the ground and all the valves shattered, the software although poorly encryted would turn out to be a copy of Windows 95 running a pirated copy of Flight Sim 98 and the navigational software based on Google Map would probably be an older version of that on President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's mobile phone..... As for the package, heck you can pick up the old Zenith E cameras on Ebay for a pittance these days.

Still, at least the US will now be able to source cheap spares when the Chinese start producing them.
Strange how it appears to be devoid of any National insignia, given the USA's habit of slapping stars and bars on everything that moves...

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

You win first prize :D:ok:

[jamesdevice]

another FARS press agency report today, it claims the drone came down near the city of Tabas
Fars News Agency :: Tehran Protests US Violation of Iranian Airspace (http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9007276691)

Its a copy of a letter of complaint to the UN. This is the interesting bit:

"Upon instructions from my Government, I have the honor to draw your kind attention to the provocative and covert operations against the Islamic Republic of Iran by the United States Government, which have increased and intensified in recent months.

In the continuation of such trend, recently, an American RQ-170 unmanned spy plane, bearing a specific serial number, violated Iran 's air space. This plane flied 250 Kilometers deep into Iranian territory up to the northern region of the city of Tabas , where it faced prompt and forceful action by the Armed Forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

This is not the only act of aggression and covert operation by the United States against the Islamic Republic of Iran. In the past, the Iranian Government lodged its strong protests against similar acts by submitting several Notes including Notes No. 164440 dated 29 October 2008 and No. 268483 dated 11 February 2009 to the Government of the United States."

[monkeytennis]

Watch it turn out to be the CIA's best prank ever.

"Let's let slip a UAV has been lost near Iran, then watch and see them arsing about for a week trying to find it and fail, then see if they build a model of one and display it to the world. They'll look like a right set of bell*nds!"

Reminds me a little of when that missile test went wrong and they photoshopped an extra one into the press release.

[jamesdevice]

in another FARS press release today
Fars News Agency :: Senior Cleric: Iran to Give Crushing Response to Aggressors (http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9007276693)
"Commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Aerospace Forces Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh appeared on TV last night to explain how Iranian forces downed the United States' highly advanced radar-evading spy drone last week.

"Recently, our collected intelligence and precise electronic monitoring revealed that this aircraft intended to infiltrate our country's airspace for spying missions," the General said, and added, "After it entered the Eastern parts of the country, this aircraft fell into the trap of our armed forces and was downed in Iran with minimum damage."

"The wing-to-wing width of the RQ-170 Sentinel drone is around 26 meters with a length of 4.5 meters and height of 1.84 meters.""

Now he's either had words put in his mouth by someone, or he's not seen the supposed capture and is relying on info from the internet. The "drone" in the Iranian photos is clearly not 26 metres wingspan

[NutLoose]

Say what you like about the Iranians, but i will say one thing, they sure know how to polish a floor...

[500N]

Something fishy is going on. Something is just not right about the whole thing.

Anytime one of these countries shoots something down, they parade bits an pieces of it all over, but not in this case.

We will see.

[Mechta]

The two lumps: Directional antennas or maybe even somewhere for the wheels to go (although I somehow doubt it on a stealthyish aircraft)

500N: Your spoof theory is ok but why go to all the bother of parachutes, pallets and stuff, when you could just tow it and let it glide down?

If its is a real one, maybe all the hatches are on the bottom and they have been blown off by explosives which destroyed the clever stuff.

Oh, and the grille? Aircraft maybe referred to as she. Its in Iran now, so its not a grille, its wearing a burka:}

[500N]

Mechta

Re "500N: Your spoof theory is ok but why go to all the bother of parachutes, pallets and stuff, when you could just tow it and let it glide down?"

Why ?

Because I am not a pilot, know SFA about aero dynamics and wouldn't know if that thing would drop like a stone, spin down like a Sycamore seed or glide to a landing point if the engine cut out.

So, unlike SAM, I try only talk about what I know and the method I described is low tech, all gear needed would be readily available in Afghanistan, it's easy to set up and more importantly, it works, achieving the desired result of putting a drone with a little damage on the ground in Iran.


Gliding ?
Do you reckon you could tow that Drone behind another plane OK and that it would glide exactly where you wanted it to go ? I have my doubts but will leave it to the experts on here to correct me as to why it would glide OK.


HTH:O

[Corporal Clott]

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/389/48095299.jpg

The Germans flew flying-wing gliders over 70 years ago...

[jamesdevice]

if you want to get into an argument over who came up with the idea of the flying wing, I think a designer called Hill got there first in the 1920's with the Westlland Pterodactyls
see Westland Pterodactyl (http://crimso.msk.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft22263.htm)
My father can still remember seeing them in the 1930's

[Lima Juliet]

JD

There was also the Halton Aero Club's HAC3 Meteor around the same time. This RAF Serviceman's Club still operates at RAF Halton today (not with flying wings I hasten to add!).

http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1930/UNTITLED0%20-%200339.PDF

Also, Jose Weiss made flying wing gliders in 1910 if you really want to be picky!

That said I think Northrop and the Hortens really put flying wings on the table as a viable design.

LJ

[500N]

I'm not saying flying wings don't glide, I'm questioning towing THIS drone behind a plane without anyone in it and being able to get it up to a height to let it glide without everything turning to ................


If you dropped this from the back of a C17 or a C130, would it glide down to the ground by itself of would it get to the ground in some other way ?

ie Flat Spin, Flutter down from side to side or drop like a stone ?

What I am saying is without having anyone in the actual drone - which is the difference between this Drone and the flying Wings with Pilots you have all pointed me to as examples of flying wings.

The OP who posed the question to me specifically said TOW and Glide
and since the Drone doesn't have a pilot on board, that's what is making me question the whole thing.

Remember, we are talking about how the US got a FAKE Drone into Iran, not a real RB-170 that could be controlled by a Pilot located at Creech AFB.
.

[SASless]

It had a British electrical system....engineered by Smiths.....no wonder the damn thing crashed!:E:E

[jamesdevice]

those early flying wings were all very stable and very difficult to control. Its really only modern computer control systems that enable them to fly.
Can't see anyone wasting that money on a fake.

[jamesdevice]

Intersting
speculation seems to be growing that IF a drone was brought down, that this is the device that did it
Avtobaza: Iran's weapon in alleged RQ-170 affair? - The DEW Line (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2011/12/avtobaza-irans-weapon-in-rq-17.html)

Of course total speculation

[Lima Juliet]

Now that article is interesting, if only to show that there is no lateral thinking going on.

If the RQ was jammed then it should pick up the emergency mission and fly back until, either:

1. It re-establishes comms with the SAT link (you wouldn't have to go far from your jamming source to vastly reduce the effect of the jammer as free space path loss of signals is logarithmic over distance (in dB it is 20Log(distance)+20log(frequency)+32.45)) - it's energy is dispersed under an inverse square law.
2. It establishes link with a LOS link (if it has one?).

Now, if the jammer shown in the article fried the avionics (and it would need a lot of power to do that) then this is not just a threat to remotely piloted aircraft, but also to manned aviation. Why? Because just about every aircraft flying in the military today has digital fuel control modules, engine management, fly-by-wire, communications/datalinks, RADARs and other avionics. So if the RQ became unflyable due to its kit getting fried by this supposed "wonder weapon" then we had best wheel out the Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancaster from BBMF! However, as seen above to fry avionics over long distances would require huge amounts of power concentrated right on the SAT dish - unlikely from the ground also, due to geometry.

So I reckon it had an engine failure, the AD Cdr that "claimed it" got lucky and the Iranians now have a piece equipment that the US would rather they did not.

LJ

[glojo]

I read about that so called 'jamming device' and took it with a pinch of the proverbial.

Would Iran show all the working innards of that UAV and would they then tell the World how they managed to over ride the command and control of that aircraft.

Apart from industrial espionage, it is sadly very much a fact of life that money talks and loyalty can walk.

[Mechta]

500N: Flying wings can be very stable. The sweep back gives them directional stability and dihedral effect. With forwardish centre of gravity and a bit of washout on the tips (trailing edge higher than leading edge) they will glide very happily by themselves. BBC - Earth News - Vine seeds become 'giant gliders' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8391000/8391345.stm)

If someone wanted to deliver a gliding mock up into Iran they could do this with a couple of radio control servos, a GPS plus something to link the two. All it would need is to be pre-programmed to steer towards a chosen landing point. Some current UAVs do this if their engine stops, they glide to pre-programmed, reasonably flat, remote areas and go into a descending circuit until the ground gets in the way. If the programmer is clever, he sets it so it turns into the forecast wind at, say, 300ft and glides straight ahead. Some land with almost no damage.

People have towed free flight gliders with radio controlled or even other free flight models. It can be done.

Leon Jabachjabicz

Firstly I think you are right, that the thing had an engine failure before or after entering 'return home' mode, and came down either where gravity took it on the return home route, or to a pre-programmed empty space.

History; don't forget J.W. Dunne's tailless aircraft from the First World War. he even sold the designs to the Americans. Some were biplanes, others monoplanes.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/Dunne_D.6.png/300px-Dunne_D.6.png
http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/images/burgess_dunne_1914_500.jpg


Terminology; RPVs, RPAS, UAVs, UAS, UMA or drones. At least drone can cover them all, and doesn't just tell you what it isn't. Not all UAVs are remotely piloted; some are pre-programmed or 'think' for themselves once airborne, and when does an aeroplane become a system? Most modern aircraft, particularly military ones, are part of a system as they are of limited use without their ground support equipment, air traffic control, etc.

Jamesdevice wrote:
those early flying wings were all very stable and very difficult to control. Its really only modern computer control systems that enable them to fly.
Can't see anyone wasting that money on a fake. This sounds contradictory. Is this what you are really trying to say?:
Early flying wings were all very stable but could be sensitive in pitch if trimmed with a rearward centre of gravity to allow them to be efficient. Its only really the use of modern computer systems (neutral stability +fly by wire) that enables them to fly efficiently.

[hexboy]

Please tell me the US installs self destruct devices on these advanced tech drones and that this malfunctioned.
Otherwise my guess is it was meant to fall into Iranian hands and is still transmitting!

[jamesdevice]

Mechta
That isn't what I meant to say, but I'll defer to your better knowledge. If thats the case I'll not argue

Avtobaza jammer
from Kvant 1L222 Avtobaza Electronic Intelligence (ELINT) system | Defense Update (http://defense-update.com/20111205_kvant-1l222-avtobaza-electronic-intelligence-elint-system.html)
" Each 1L222 system includes an passive ELINT signals interception system and a jamming module capable of disrupting airborne radars including fire control radars, terrain following radars and ground mapping radars as well as weapon (missile) data links."
How vulnerable is a drone which has had terrain and ground mapping radar disabled?
When I was looking earlier I did find a couple of comments suggesting that the device COULD fry circuitry. However they were unreferenced and at face value hard to believe

[Mechta]

Jamesdevice,

Depending upon the level of redundancy the RQ-170 designers buit in, it would be likely to have some sort of inertial navigation system as a backup to any GPS or terrain interpreting system (I don't know if the latter exists). Assuming that areasonable degree of electromagnetic shielding has been built into the avionics boxes, an inertial navigation system, I would have thought, would keep working. Maybe that Avtobasa sytem played a part in helping the remote operator lose his uplink, and send the RQ-170 into a 'return home' mode, but I think that its unlikely to have directly permanently damaged anything onboard.

Hexboy, The Americans may have systems to burn out components if the RQ-170 is believed lost after its flight duration, but putting explosives in it runs the risk of bad publicity if it is first found by children who are subsequently maimed or killed by it intentionally exploding. After all, America has not yet declared war on Iran. Surveillance and espionage is all part of the 'game'. Once it turns to indiscriminate killing by the Americans, the Americans may be seen by the world to have stepped things up a gear. They don't want another 'USS Vincennes'.

Temprarily losing an uplink is not that uncommon with UAVs, so operators wouldn't want to destroy it until they were absolutely sure they wouldn't get it back.

[NutLoose]

Temprarily losing an uplink is not that uncommon with UAVs, so operators wouldn't want to destroy it until they were absolutely sure they wouldn't get it back.

So do you still think they are still hoping the Iranians are going to pop it in the mail?



:E

[glojo]

So do you still think they are still hoping the Iranians are going to pop it in the mail?

At least the Chinese eventually returned the US EP-3E aircraft that landed at Hainan Island. The Chinese very kindly flat packed this aircraft and put all the parts into numerous Airfix boxes. These boxes were then handed over to the Russians who then subsequently gave it back to its rightful owners. PDF file (http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL30946.pdf)

Is it possible that the innards of this drone have now also been flat packed and being returned to the USA via Iran School of Stealth Technology, China, Russia and anyone else willing to pay for the privilege of handling this imitation state of the art UAV that was deliberately deposited into the centre of Azadi Square. Mr Google (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azadi_Tower)

No doubt neither the Chinese nor the Russians will peek at the contents of those boxes.

[Mechta]

So do you still think they are still hoping the Iranians are going to pop it in the mail?

:ok::ok::ok::ok:

Not until the Chinese have measured taken measurements and filled eB*y with models of it. They're cutting it fine though, if they are to arrive in time for Christmas...

[henra]

its not big enough
the RQ-170 is variously reported as 26-28 metres in wingspan


I have seen these claims a number of times. However, when looking at the few images said to be RQ170 in the internet this assumption seems rather unlikely.

In some of those images it looks much smaller compared to structures in the photos.


Look at the canopies in the open (F-18?) canopies in the background
http://www.uasvision.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/rq170_enhanced.jpg

Or the small tower in this pictures:
http://elhangardetj.********.com/

Or in this image compared to the AN 26 in the background:

Edit: Does this Link work?
DOPPELADLER.COM | Thema anzeigen - OT: USA bestätigen Einsatz von RQ-170 "Sentinel" in Pakistan (http://www.doppeladler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2057&p=19927)

6th picture from the Top shows an AN 32 (rather than 26 as I wrote) in the background on the right.

That thing seems actually quite small.

Looking at those images the size in the pictures shown by the Iranians seems reasonable.

[jamesdevice]

those last two links are getting corrupted by the forum software
Theres something in the forum setup which blocks links to some other competing aircraft web sites

[rh200]

Would the USA over fly Iranian air space with a toy replica full of advanced technology just to 'fool' the opposition?

Wern't they the ones who dropped over sized condoms on the viet cong? Or was that an urban myth.:p

[TEEEJ]

Analysis at the following link.

IN-DEPTH PHOTO ANALYSIS OF THE SUPPOSED RQ-170 SENTINEL DRONE IN IRANIAN HANDS | aviationintel (http://aviationintel.com/?p=4322)

[500N]

TEEEJ

I read that the other day (on another computer so couldn't post the link),
a very interesting analysis.

I notice he mentions carbon fiber which is interesting.


Mechta
Thanks for the explanation to my questions re gliding.

[dc1968]

BBC News - US asks Iran to return captured drone (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16150384)

Guess that answers this one then!

[Mike7777777]

Difficult to believe that the Iranians would have the ability to "hack" into a drone's control systems, if this was the case then I'm sure that a few more drones would have gone missing in Afghanistan (although would such losses be in the public domain?)

[glojo]

We have gone through numerous pages of folks claiming this was a fake drone that was deliberately landed in Iran just to make that country look silly. We are now claiming the thing is real but it had a 'technical' malfunction and simply glided down to earth and somehow landed intact!!

I TOTALLY accept technical items of any type be they in a computer, car, tank, refrigerator or aircraft will always at some time fail to operate correctly b ut in this specific case, I just do not buy that excuse.

How long do we want the list of US military equipment having 'technical' issues that have caused them to crash or be destroyed?? My befuddled memory tells me that the last case of a 'technical' issue comparable to this was the helicopter that 'could not take off' after it developed 'technical' issues in the compound at the home of Bin Laden. Before that I can recall an Apache aircraft that was allegedly shot down over Iraq by a very old farmer with an antiquated rifle. The US claimed the thing had been forced to land because of 'technical' issues and the aircraft had subsequently been destroyed by an F-15E. The problem with that claim was that those of us with satellite TV saw this same helicopter on the back of a low loader being driven into an embassy compound in Baghdad!!

My thoughts are still that the US has been 'outsmarted' and they are now paying the price. My personal observations are that.... 'Please may I have my ball back' is unlikely to wash unless the USA makes Iran an offer they CANNOT refuse.

[500N]

glojo

In brief, what do you think the full story is now ?

[rh200]

Oh I don't know, if you where someone like the Chinese, or Russians and wanted to get experiance into blocking and or hacking into the latest and greatest of your enemy how would you do it.

Oh thats it, go somewhere where they are inevatibly sending assets into or really close to a country that you can deal with. Just sit back and play with your latest Chinese or Russian toys and see what happens. If lucky let said country have some photo ops.

[glojo]

In brief, what do you think the full story is now

Me brief!! :8

Risky thing putting one's head above the parapet but I possibly go along roughly with the comments of rh200

Countries that want to find out just how good the US technology is can safely enter Iran, set up their detection equipment and then play to their hearts content without fear of interruption and just wait for these drones to fly over.

If you insult me once more fool you,
If you insult me twice then more fool me.

In other words if the US continually over fly the same area then they are asking for trouble.... Or to be detected. I understand that nothing is completely invisible, it is just harder to detect.

[dc1968]

I wonder if anyone has the minerals to 'spoof' this on E-Bay now.....:ok:

[jamesdevice]

"I wonder if anyone has the minerals to 'spoof' this on E-Bay now"

Don't try it
What Not to Sell on eBay: Drones | Danger Room | Wired.com (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/03/what-not-to-sell-on-ebay-drones/)

[son of brommers]

Iran scoffs at Obama request for US drone's return - timesofmalta.com (http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20111213/world/iran-scoffs-at-obama-request-for-us-drone-s-return.398212)

perhaps SAMXV might be in the money...........................

[jamesdevice]

theres quite a bit of anti-USA rhetoric on the FARS agency website today
but two are notable
"
Fars News Agency :: 90 US Drones Brought Down in 4 Years (http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9007277161)
90 US Drones Brought Down in 4 Years
TEHRAN (FNA)- The number of the hi-tech drones that the US has lost since 2007 in combat or while spying over other world countries reached 90 with the last one hacked by Iranian armed forces and brought down in the Eastern parts of the country almost intact 10 days ago."


Fars News Agency :: Iran to Prosecute American Supporters of Terrorism (http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9007277268)
Iran to Prosecute American Supporters of Terrorism
TEHRAN (FNA)- Iran announced on Tuesday that it will file a lawsuit with international bodies against the two former US officials who had called on the Obama administration to assassinate the Islamic Republic's top military commanders........
The two US officials are namely retired US Army general Jack Keane, and former CIA agent Reuel Marc Gerecht who is now a senior advisor to the Congress and is also with the Foundation for Defense of Democracies think-tank"

[TEEEJ]

Glojo wrote,

How long do we want the list of US military equipment having 'technical' issues that have caused them to crash or be destroyed?? My befuddled memory tells me that the last case of a 'technical' issue comparable to this was the helicopter that 'could not take off' after it developed 'technical' issues in the compound at the home of Bin Laden. Before that I can recall an Apache aircraft that was allegedly shot down over Iraq by a very old farmer with an antiquated rifle. The US claimed the thing had been forced to land because of 'technical' issues and the aircraft had subsequently been destroyed by an F-15E. The problem with that claim was that those of us with satellite TV saw this same helicopter on the back of a low loader being driven into an embassy compound in Baghdad!!

You do seem a bit 'befuddled'!

The helo at the Bin Laden compound came down over the compound. It couldn't take off due to the fact that it clipped the wall resulting in the tail shearing off. The tail ended up on the outside of the compound wall with the rest coming down inside the compound. The major part of the wreckage was destroyed in place but the tail on the other side remained intact.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/5/5/1304582299748/A-damaged-Blackhawk-helic-007.jpg

The Pakistanis attempted to shroud the tail section on the outside of the compound.

http://cdn2.dailycaller.com/2011/08/Helicopter.jpg

The main portion of the helicopter was destroyed in place after the mission was complete.

http://gfx.nrk.no/PbG6nfDeaWd209Owpm5TUgtBZq2ybXEjOROcFw7iT97Q.jpg

Reference the US Army AH-64 Apache in Iraq. It was serial 99-5135 and later destroyed by US airstrike.

Apache down: the hunt for a sensitive US copter / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0507/p04s01-woiq.html)

"We directed an aircraft to the site, but when it got there, there were too many clouds," says US Army Lt. Col. Eric Nelson, air-operations officer for V Corps. "The pilot could see the helicopter [on the ground between the clouds], but he couldn't get a good lock on it to shoot it."

So recovery officials changed plans. They decided instead to use long-range artillery fire. But the crash site was close to US troops, and it took some time to clear the artillery barrage with commanders in the area.

By then, however, the Iraqis had loaded the helicopter onto a transport truck. For two days, US officials lost track of the Longbow.

At this point of the story, military officials choose their words very carefully. "Someone saw it and reported it," is all they will say. But it is no secret that a significant number of Special Forces troops were working behind enemy lines.

The Iraqis had transported the helicopter to a gully near what then was the Saddam International Airport. They covered it with camouflage tenting.

"Once we located it, we put an Air Force jet on it, and this time he destroyed it," says Colonel Nelson, who also answers to the call sign "Evil-6." "You want it blown apart. We didn't want to disable it. We wanted to totally destroy it so its parts couldn't be exploited."

The pilot dropped a 1,000-pound bomb.

About a week later, the 3rd Infantry Division pushed through the area, capturing the airport. A special detail was sent to recover whatever was left of the Apache.

Today, it is barely recognizable as a helicopter - a twisted hulk of green and black metal about the size of a small dump truck. The blades are doubled over and shattered. The only recognizable piece of equipment is the protective Kevlar shield that supports the pilot's seat. The seat itself is gone.

The wreckage is awaiting transport to American salvage specialists in Kuwait. "We don't leave our combat junk out on the battlefield," Nelson says. "The Iraqis won't have to clean up after us."

The Apache was one of 31 sent on a deep-attack mission to hit element of the Republican Medina Division near the city of Karbala. They were met with intense anti-aircraft fire and the crew of serial 99-5135 was forced to make an emergency landing. Chief Warrant Officer Ronald D. Young and Chief Warrant Officer David S. Williams were captured and later rescued.

The Iraqi Farmer, Ali Abid Minqash, featured by the Iraq Ministry of Information in the propaganda footage later gave an interview.

Minqash told the paper that he had come across the aircraft in his field early one morning.

"I didn't shoot down an Apache or anything else. All that happened was that I went to the field, as I usually do early in the morning, and was surprised to find some bodies on the ground.

"I began to rub my eyes to make sure that what I was seeing was true or whether I was imagining it," he said.

"When I realised that it was really true, I was overcome by fear and rushed to the nearest government post to inform them that there was a plane in my field.

"A large number of [Baath] party members and security men came with me to investigate. They told me that it was an American Apache aircraft and made me stay with them until someone who they said was a senior official arrived. I didn't know who he was.

"They asked me to say what you have heard on the TV satellite channels - that I shot down the plane with an old gun, a Brno."

BBC NEWS | Middle East | The 'Apache' farmer's tale (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2969471.stm)

The Iraqi propaganda machine tried to use edited footage to claim another Apache captured later in the conflict.

From a recount of the mission.

As he pulled the trigger to lay down suppressive fire, Ron suddenly realized their problem was even worse. He had a total malfunction of his weapons systems. No chain gun, no rockets, and in the midst of the biggest firefight imaginable. At that point, the battle became very real. People were shooting at the helicopters from every direction. Feeling like a sitting duck, Dave and Ron flew big circles trying to evade enemy fire. Although Dave could still shoot from the back seat, Ron could do little more than provide an extra pair of eyes. It only got worse.

From the frantic radio traffic, it became obvious that Ron's helicopter had gotten separated from the rest of Charlie Company. They had rallied to the south at Checkpoint 17. Ron and Dave were alone at Checkpoint 19. Large red 14mm rounds streaked by the canopy and Ron became aware of the plink, plink sounds of random bullets scoring hits on their Apache. In desperation, Dave turned to the south to attempt a retreat from the area. Instantly, the two men heard an explosion and felt a violent shudder all through the airframe. The Apache had taken a direct hit in one of its two engines.

With the loss of an engine, the chopper could still fly, but only at a greatly reduced speed. More plinks were heard and smoke began to fill the cockpit. The controls went sloppy and the Up Front Display screen started scrolling a continuous stream of warning messages.

"Rotor low," warned the automatic voice annunciation system, indicating that rotor rpms were dropping. The helicopter was going down. In twenty seconds, the chopper impacted the terrain, tail first.

Dave had taken a shrapnel hit in the foot, but the two men were otherwise unhurt in the crash. It seemed to be their only piece of good luck. In seconds, Ron and Dave bolted from the aircraft and sprinted away from the crash site. A ditch afforded them some temporary protection so they jumped in. A quick inspection of Dave's foot showed the shrapnel injury to be minor. With random shots from Iraqi AK-47s zipping by, Ron attempted to make emergency radio contact with American controllers.

Russell Still's Home Page (http://www.russellstill.com/young.html)

In regards to the RQ-170 aircraft have landed themselves after malfunction or in this case after ejection.

F-106 Delta Dart - 58-0787 Pilotless Landing (http://www.f-106deltadart.com/71fis_PilotlessLanding_580787.htm)

[engineer(retard)]

and if the Chinese or Russians are sitting over the border with high power jammers, perhaps the US are monitoring their transmissions and the drones are bait.

The conspiracy goes on.......

[NutLoose]

Dropping like flies



VICTORIA Dec 13 (Reuters) - A U.S. drone aircraft crashed at Seychelles International Airport on Tuesday, the U.S. embassy in Mauritius said.
"A U.S. Air Force remote-piloted MQ-9 crashed at the Seychelles International Airport in Mahe. The MQ-9 was not armed and no injuries were reported," the embassy said in a statement.
The Seychelles Civil Aviation Authority (SCAA) confirmed the incident and said that the plane was on a "routine patrol" and had crashed because of mechanical failure.
The U.S. embassy did not comment on the plane's mission and said that the cause of the crash was unknown.
Iran announced on Dec. 4 it had downed a U.S. drone in the eastern part of the country, near Afghanistan. It has since shown the plane on television and said it is close to cracking its technological secrets. (Reporting by George Thande; Writing by Barry Malone)

[glojo]

You do seem a bit 'befuddled'! Hi Teej,
Thank you for posting the pictures and I'm certain that once those images hit the internet it made the US story about 'technical issues' look somewhat silly. But I can assure you that the official claim was 'technical issues' until such time as those pictures were in the public domain.

The Apache aircraft I am talking about was filmed on a low loader and this truck was entering the grounds of what looked like a large embassy. My thoughts there are that this aircraft would have been stripped of any technology deemed to be of interest and then it may or may not have then been taken elsewhere.

This footage was shown either the same day or the day after that claim by Iraq regarding the old man shooting one such aircraft down. Do I believe that story about this person shooting it down? :) My thoughts are that it was highly unlikely, but do I believe the US bombed that Apache? I think your link answers that question.

[BossEyed]

glojo, "technical issues" is an obvious deliberately bland catch-all term.

Such technical issues could include e.g. a high density altitude inability to maintain a heavyweight hover, leading to descent into an obstacle, such as a compund wall.

Which is what US statements a few hours later say happened.

There's no inconsistency or 'silliness' that I can see. What am I missing?

[glojo]

Hi Boss-Eyed
I take on-board what you are saying

[Tourist]

glojo


You are wittering.

stop it.


Leave the craziness to the other forums.

[glojo]

Apologies.. :O:O:O:O

Morphine is a great wittering agent

[TEEEJ]

Glojo wrote,

The Apache aircraft I am talking about was filmed on a low loader....

Yes I remember the footage. I commented on a forum when the footage aired. From the video I noticed that all weapons were stripped from the airframe - including the cannon.

[500N]

glojo

Are you trying to give Tolstoy a run for his money ?

You are certainly giving SAMXXV a run in the length of your posts, although maybe not in the craziness part :O

.

[Lonewolf_50]

glojo
I understand that nothing is completely invisible, it is just harder to detect.
So far, yes.

There's been some work being done on the visible spectrum for some time, with the usual mixed results. When the USN can "cloak" a carrier ... I'd say the tech is mature. Not there yet, eh?

Manipulation of visual spectrum seems to be like fusion powered reactors:

"We'll have it sorted out in about fifteen years"

being the party line for about fifty years ... :p

[Dream Land]

Drone navigation hacked? Link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45685870/ns/world_news-christian_science_monitor/t/iran-hijacked-us-drone-claims-iranian-engineer/)

[500N]

Very interesting link. More will come out in the near future to corroborate the story.

.

[Green Flash]

Meaconing? Was it a 'bend the beams' job a la RV Jones or spoof the local GPS signal a la James Bond?? (forgot the film, China v UK, mad media mogul, you know the one).

[Molemot]

There's quite a large amateur community building some very capable drones...

DIY Drones (http://diydrones.com/)

[TEEEJ]

Iran to exhibit US and Israeli spy drones

Iran to exhibit US and Israeli spy drones | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/15/iran-exhibit-american-spy-drones)

Country reportedly planning to put the machines on display and invite journalists and foreign ambassadors to view them

Iran says it will put on display a series of foreign spy drones that it claims to have obtained, including four Israeli and three US unmanned aircraft, according to a state-run newspaper.

Iran's English-language newspaper, the Tehran Times, quoted "an informed source" as saying that the exhibition will be held "in the near future", and that foreign ambassadors based in Tehran and local journalists would be invited.

"The latest domestically manufactured electronic warfare equipment will also be put on show at the exhibition," the newspaper said. "The foreign unmanned aircraft that Iran has are four Israeli and three US drones.....

[jamesdevice]

Iranian take on the Christian Science Monitor report
Fars News Agency :: Report Alleges US Drone Cheated by Iran (http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9007277570)

Includes a veiled threat;
"Hacking such an extremely sophisticated system, which until last week was considered impossible, means that the Iranians are able to enter all computer-based network systems in the US and Europe. Since the algorithm and logic behind other systems are much simpler, the Iranians may be able to control all radars, satellites, planes, ships, tanks, rockets, cruise missiles and so on of the US and NATO throughout the world. They may be able to even control American soldiers, who are driven to fight using satellite controlled infrared systems."
A bit of hyperbole (or even bollox) there, but it does raise some interesting questions

[Willard Whyte]

So much for network enabled battlespace, etc., bolleaux.

[jamesdevice]

http://info.publicintelligence.net/USAF-RemoteIrregularWarfare.pdf

1. Key Finding 1: Current RPA automation implementations either underautomate,
over-automate, or fail to provide a flexible human-centric solution.
Insufficient and inflexible automation/sensor processing increases pilot workload,
increases incident rates, degrades mission performance and agility, and inhibits
distributed cross-platform collaboration.
2. Key Finding 2: Poorly-designed Operator Control Stations (OCSs) fail to
provide effective, robust, and safe RPA mission management because of a lack of
accepted systems engineering design practices, a lack of Human-System
Integration (HSI) design and implementation, and closed and stovepiped
architectures that constrain “best of breed” component solutions.
3. Key Finding 3: Limited communications systems result in communications
latency, link vulnerabilities, and lost-link events, which limits mission roles
assigned to RPAs, operational flexibility, and resiliency in the face of
unanticipated events.

enough in that lot to explain how contact was lost, even without any jamming
More details from page 31 onwards

[fltlt]

Nothing has changed since the mid 80's, nothing.


"http://info.publicintelligence.net/U...larWarfare.pdf (http://info.publicintelligence.net/USAF-RemoteIrregularWarfare.pdf)

1. Key Finding 1: Current RPA automation implementations either underautomate,
over-automate, or fail to provide a flexible human-centric solution.
Insufficient and inflexible automation/sensor processing increases pilot workload,
increases incident rates, degrades mission performance and agility, and inhibits
distributed cross-platform collaboration.
2. Key Finding 2: Poorly-designed Operator Control Stations (OCSs) fail to
provide effective, robust, and safe RPA mission management because of a lack of
accepted systems engineering design practices, a lack of Human-System
Integration (HSI) design and implementation, and closed and stovepiped
architectures that constrain “best of breed” component solutions.
3. Key Finding 3: Limited communications systems result in communications
latency, link vulnerabilities, and lost-link events, which limits mission roles
assigned to RPAs, operational flexibility, and resiliency in the face of
unanticipated events.

enough in that lot to explain how contact was lost, even without any jamming
More details from page 31 onwards"

[jamesdevice]

latest claims from Iran
Fars News Agency :: Report: CIA Hacked by Iran (http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9007277882)
Important to note they are quoting a Russian news agency, reporting Israeli comments from a supposed off-the record USA source. So believe what you will

"As RT reported yesterday, overseas officials speaking on condition of anonymity say that they were able to crack the computers of the drone to hijack the craft and lead it to a safe landing after it caught the drone creeping over from a mission in Afghanistan. Now military sources speaking to Israel-based news outlet Debka insist that Iranian forces made their way into the drone commander centers at CIA headquarters outside of Washington in Langley, Virginia. Debka has close connections with the Israel intelligence community and in the past has been known for correctly reporting on issues of importance to the American intelligence community before US outlets, Russia Today said......

"The Israel-based outlet adds that in addition to hacking the GPS network of the craft, as Iranian engineers admitted earlier this week, the command center in Langley must have been infiltrated as to keep those controlling the robotic plane from noticing that the craft had been guided onto an enemy base. Had the CIA been aware of the hacking of the GPS network only, adds Debka, they would have surely triggered the craft's self-destruct mechanism, rendering any wreckage unmanageable for Iranian authorities recovering the debris. ,....

"Debka's analysis of the drone capture also raises a last point worth bringing up - with the Sentinel's mission over Iran being the first such flight there for the craft, whoever intercepted it was well aware of the precise day and hour of the mission. With Washington doubting their technology out of Tehran, going as far as to call it an "ox-cart culture" in recent weeks, the possibility that the attack was infiltrated from within the United States or with the cooperation of American officials seems more than likely now..... "

[rh200]

Ahh the process of disinformation, what is the truth, guess only the people involved.

U.S. Official Says Iran Will Find It Difficult To Exploit Intel In Drone | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/12/18/us-official-says-iran-will-find-it-difficult-to-exploit-intel-in-drone/?test=latestnews)

He's saying it was just a simple failure, and no big deal.

[Courtney Mil]

Yes indeed, Glojo. And as for:

But independent experts say the data and communications of the unmanned aircraft are heavily encrypted, making it difficult for Iran to harvest much intelligence from them.

Surely if the UAV had been gathering int over Iran, they'd only be getting int about themselves anyway!?!?! I guess I know what he meant.

[jamesdevice]

to be honest, hacking the circuitry may not be all that useful anyway in terms of gaining technological secrets
its amazing what can be done with a relatively low cost machine using off-the-shelf parts and technology
Put these two concepts (below) together and the result would be a cheap DIY communications spy. What it wouldn't have is range - but that should be fixable given scale. Any aerospace company would be able to overcome that

DIY Spy Drone Sniffs Wi-Fi, Intercepts Phone Calls | Threat Level | Wired.com (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/08/blackhat-drone/)
Southampton engineers fly the world's first 'printed' aircraft (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-07/uos-sef072811.php)

Of course if you added solar power generation as well, then in some countries you would have potentially a huge range
And if anyone doubt the availability of 3D printers, a friend of mine has one for making scale-model railway locomotives. Cost him less than £10,000

[Lonewolf_50]

Heh, pursuant fltlt's link (many thanks)

I love the way the Air Force parses language.

"High Regret Operations" have significant IO impact.

Fork me, is that any way for a warrior to talk?

[Mach Two]

Dunno. What's it mean?

Sorry, Significant IO profile heightening is required in this high confusion operation.

[fltlt]

Lonewolf_50, it was not my link, it was jamesdevice, credit where credit is due.

Unfortunately that whole mindset is slowly spreading throughout the armed forces over here. Just read the individual post "newspapers", it is all touchy feely, I didn't mean to offend you stuff.
Afraid our warriors have somewhat droopy swords and lances. Sadly I can envisage when the callout "Fox two" means you have just launched foam nerf projectiles so as not to cause your enemy any damage or personal bad feelings.:ugh:

Maybe we can have text wars, first to 1,000,000 wins with unlimited rematchs?

[fltlt]

Mach Two, even they aren't sure:

The Merge - Reply to “Defining Information Operations Forces..." (http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj07/win07/beebe.html)

[jamesdevice]

you may like this one as well
http://info.publicintelligence.net/MCCLL-UAS-RC-SW.pdf

"Unmanned Aerial Systems Integrated Operations in Support of Regional Command Southwest"
4 October 2011

[Brian Abraham]

Exclusive: Iran hijacked US drone, says Iranian engineer (Video) - CSMonitor.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/1215/Exclusive-Iran-hijacked-US-drone-says-Iranian-engineer-Video)

[alfred_the_great]

I believe the technical term our Army friends use is WAH!!!!!!!

[Mach Two]

Thank you for the explanations. As someone said here a few days ago, I am no wiser, but slightly better informed.

[randyrippley]

latest claim / statement from Iran

Fars News Agency :: Former IRGC Cyber War Commander: Iran Can Make Drones More Advanced than RQ-170 (http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9007278276)

""Today the stealth technology has been indigenized in the Islamic Republic of Iran. We have a radar-evading plane which enjoys a home grown and fully stealth technology and has been tested by the most precise systems and can continue flying for tens of hours," the commander said, adding that the US officials should wait and see how Iranian experts make a drone much more advanced than the American RQ-170 Sentinel.

"In response to Mr. Obama's demand for the return of this plane, I recommend the Americans to be patient a bit since God willing our friends will manufacture a drone more advanced than the US RQ-170 Sentinel soon and then they can come and buy it to regain their morale and stop their (present) feeling that they are loosing everything," the former IRGC Electronic Warfare commander said. "

[BEagle]

The mission was proceeding flawlessly, requiring no more effort from the drone operators than the odd glimpse at their screens to check that it was flying its assigned mission.

Then the drone operators had to make an agonizing decision. Would it be the double cocoa kreme puff this time, or the strawberry frosted. "Dammit", mused the chief operator, "Why does Dunkin' Donuts make our life so goddam hard?".

Suddenly the drone's computer monitoring system flashed a message:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/DSW.jpg

"Aw, sheehit! Another bird's gone walkabout......."

[son of brommers]

I still reckon that it was an inside job..................

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQzpgimkgEj8v85yFV1Wb_0uCuSUhzXuEiHxRGoz7E 66RN1T3Ig

[racedo]

BEagle................................you bad.:)

[fltlt]

Beagle,

You don't know how close to the truth you are.

[chopper2004]

Came across this story in Stephen Trimble's DEW Line

Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guards claim they are reverse engineering RQ-170 tech - The DEW Line (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2012/04/iranian-islamic-revolutionary.html)

[Pontius Navigator]

Now there's a plan.

Take something that doesn't work, reverse engineer it, fly it . . . ;)

[TEEEJ]

The Iranians have released footage claimed to have been recovered from the RQ-170.

uw9c1gk0Cf4

[iRaven]

I recognise that dispersal and it's not in Iran!

I suspect they have either stolen some footage from some idiot that has put on the internet (or stored it on their personal laptop!) or they have tapped into the Full Motion Video feed (which should have been encrypted). Or it could be some footage from the hold-up memory on the aircraft (which should have been zeroised) - that's a good lesson if it hasn't been!

Either way, they did not have control of the aircraft. It is not the feed from the satellite as it is line-of-sight. There's also no parametric data on the feed, so I wonder if they picked up a faulty feed from the aircraft?

Not exactly earth shattering and it could have been the ROVER feed from a targetting pod from a manned aircraft just as easily.

iRaven

[TEEEJ]

I agree iRaven. Hard to tell from such footage. It could well be stock UAV footage previously released by the Coalition? Anyone recognise it?

[TEEEJ]

See from 01:32. Footage of the Iranians recovering the RQ-170.

02:22 shows more footage claimed recovered from the RQ-170.

aByFAwW2Puw

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/RQ-170-1-850-WIDE.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/RQ-170-2-850-WIDE.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/RQ-170-3-850-WIDE.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/RQ-170-4-850-WIDE.jpg

[Deaf]

Partial translation of documentary on the capture:

FASCINATING: IRANIAN RQ-170 DOCUMENTARY PARTIALLY TRANSLATED | aviationintel (http://aviationintel.com/2013/02/27/fascinating-iranian-rq-170-documentary-partially-translated/)

[chopper2004]

They seem to be manipulating the facts recently

Iranian news agency digitally alters Michelle Obama's Oscars gown to make it look more modest | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2284298/Iranian-news-agency-digitally-alters-Michelle-Obamas-Oscars-gown-make-look-modest.html)