Seek for suggestions for getting a PPL

[roger_hujin]

Hi everyone,

I am new to this forum and new to general aviation, but it is one of my dream to learn flying since childhood. Now I finally make up my mind to go for a PPL. So for sure, I have a lot of questions to ask now, I would really appreciate if you guys can give me some hints or suggestions before I start.

The first thing is to choose a good school:

I have read a lot of the posts in this forum and done my research on internet. It seems MFT in YMMB is a good choice. I in fact walked in to MFT's office in 2009/2010 and talked to a guy who I cannot recall his name. He was very friendly and explained to me very well, but I did not ask him to show me around (no idea about the process at that time). I think now I need to visit them again after reading all those good suggestions from this forum and have a final check before I commit. So thank you guys first!

The second thing is about the total cost:

In terms of the cost, the MFT's cost estimation gives me a number which is PPL TOTAL $23,375.70, and they did that based on 66.5 hours of flight time (10 hours solo). Their website does say they estimate the price in the "worst" case and most of the trainees will finish the course by spending less money than this. So I want to see if anybody here trained or instructed in MFT can give me an idea about how much cost actually is? I understand the official requirement is 40 hours, and understand it depends on individual progress, but just wonder in general, is it most of the people will have to have 60+ hours to pass PPL?

Also, the cost includes $1,250 for theory course, I think they give the choice of having the the course or self-study, just wonder if self-study is practical or it is better to have the course?

There are also other costs for Test fees, books which seems unavoidable, but some of them I guess there may be some cheaper alternatives, like Headset with a price lower than $500?


The third question is about the aircraft hire:

I am doing this just for recreational purpose (I am aware many people here is doing that as a career), so once I get the PPL, I want to fly myself or my family to some places for holiday etc. Reading the rates sheet for aircraft hire, MFT's website said the rate includes fuel, landing fee, and it seems just include everything. Wondering if that really include everything and will there be any surprise for me when I finally get my license to do it?

The fourth question is about the PPL itself:

Once I get the PPL, do I have to fly certain amount of hours each year to maintain the licence valid? or what should I do to "renew" it? If I stop flying for a year or two, does it invalid my license?

I knew it is a lot of questions and there are even more I want to ask, but these I think are the most important to me before I start a PPL training. All suggestions are welcomed!

Thank you!:)

[LexAir]

Why Moorabbin? Have you considered a flying school located outside MB? Shop around. Go to Essendon Airport and ask about courses on offer there. Above all, keep an open mind and be flexible.

Good luck.

[VH-XXX]

As at as hiring aircraft it's pretty much WYSIWYG. Only catch might be if you haven't flown there for a while eg 3 months you might have to do say a .5 dual check ride before they'll let you take the aircraft. When hiring (per hour) things to watch for are airways charges, landing fees at non local aerodromes and fuel purchased elsewhere at a rate higher than the location that you hired from.

Good luck otherwise and in terms of price for a PPL, they are all very similar, don't split hairs over a few dollars here or there. You could blow hundreds or more on a crappy instructor without realizing it so it would be difficult to forecast with absolute precision.

[roger_hujin]

Thanks LexAir,

Moorabbin is close to where I live so it seems save the commute time. Essendon is a little bit far from my home. but I agree with you on keeping an open mind and be flexible. So here I seek advices from your experienced gurus.

[roger_hujin]

Thanks a lot VH-XXX for the detailed information about aircraft hiring. It seems fair that they want to see how you perform before handing you their airplane, so that is fine I think.

About the price of the PPL, I am not going to save a few dollar over important things, but just want to know if there is any alternative on other "not so important" things so I can cut the cost a bit. Considering this is just for fun and I am self-funding, I am looking for the best value for money. However, instructor is utmost important, I do know that.

[Eljay]

If you are not intending to get a job flying, you might consider a "zip start", sorry, Light Sport Licence. This would be a lot cheaper and quicker, and you can convert to a GA licence later easily. No medical required either, but you can only fly 2 seaters up to about 600 kg, and not into controlled airspace. You may have to go to somewhere other than YMMB for training though.

[roger_hujin]

Yes Eljay, I have considered that, but just want to fly a Cessna and take family with me. Really love it. It is my always favourite in flight simulation games :p

[drpixie]

Hi,

Here's some general answers - hunt around, this discussion comes up regularly.

Which flight school? Pick one that is friendly and convenient. And do consider the per-hour rates, because that's what you pay. The most important thing will be your instructor - you will be flying (mostly) with the same instructor (who is always the best in the world, according to their students :O ), so someone who you like is important. Too many people drop out, anything that keeps you progressing is good - a good instructor helps. An instructor with some real-world experience (in aviation or otherwise) is often a good start.

Don't pay up-front. There are any number of disaster stories, not much to be saved, and you never get money back. If you are offered a great price "up front", pay it in installments as you progress - so if you change your mind, you don't loose the lot.

Cost? Generally, the more you pay per hour, the newer/cleaner the aircraft (but not always). The final cost depends very much on you. More enthusiastic and better prepared means less total hours, and flying more often means less total hours. It's pretty much unheard of for anyone to be ready at minimum hours - it's your standard and ability that is measured, not your hours.

I don't think you save much starting in RAA aircraft, as there will always be some conversion time. Flying different (much lighter) aircraft is good for your skills. Try to do some gliding - the costs are very low, it's great fun, the experience is great for your skills, and the hours count to your logbook. If you start in RAA aircraft, make very sure you are taught to professional standards. There are plenty of cheap and unprofessional "ultralight" places around.

Total cost is impossible to predict accurately (varies a great deal person to person) but will be somewhere upwards of $20k. Average for a quick PPL seems to be around 45-50 hrs, with plenty of people taking 50+. That will depend mostly on your diligence, your instructor, and regularity of lessons. (If you plan on less than 1 a week, it will take a long time and cost more.) Some background with mechanical stuff and/or model aircraft often indicates people who take to flying more easily.

Theory. Do the theory self-study. Saves a little but (more important) is likely to produce a more well rounded pilot. Read everything you can, ask questions of your instructor, and don't be satisfied with pat or illogical answers. And don't believe anything just because it's on the internet! The Bob Tate books are fine for passing exams but you should be much better informed that just passing exams. Read plenty of aviation history, engineering/aerodynamics etc. The general knowledge stuff from the FAA website is good (though US emphasis and procedures are different to ours) - read "Naval Aviators" by Hurt (now for download from the FAA website) and similar. Most libraries have/can-get stuff.

Headset. Get the best you can afford. It will make flying and radio much easier (which saves you hours/money in the long run). Noise reduction is great. The basic David Clarke headsets are really the minimum worth buying.

Private hire. Yes, the hire rate should include everything - some places exclude landing fees, typically $10-20 but sometimes more, ML $280!. Most hire excludes capital city landing fees, although AD was always pretty reasonable. The gotcha is the hours it takes to get somewhere, and the extra hours when bad weather requires diversions/delays.

Licence. The PPL is perpetual, but to use it you must do a flight review every 2 years, or some training that includes a flight test, which counts as a review. And most places won't hire out aircraft unless you've flown reasonably recently.

All the best. Keep at it and you'll get there - it is worth it.

[machadotaughtme]

Try talking with the guys at Vortex Air at Moorabbin, you might be surprised!

[VH-XXX]

Does the Chief pilot at Vortex have anything to do with the flying school ? Heard he has a short fuse when flying his Seneca into CTAF's :-). As long as that's not in the syllabus you'll be fine!

[roger_hujin]

Oh drpixie, thank you so much!!

You have answered all my questions in great details. It is very helpful to me as a new start.

It is great to find this forum as when I start my training, I am sure I will have more questions to ask. It will be fantastic to have people like you around.

I am planning to have the fly training once a week for about a year to get the PPL, do you think it is practical? I have to do it in weekends as I have to work and got a family to feed, so probably can only do it once a week every Sunday maybe.

I will do the theory myself, like you suggested, that is also what I am thinking about. actually I have read some of those topics just for fun in quite a few years (not textbooks though) to now, so maybe it can save me some time and efforts on it. and yes, I won't just limit myself to the textbooks and pass the exam, I am interested in mechanical stuff, engineering and aerodynamics, hobby on electronics, and model air-plane, I think they are all part of my dream of flying into the sky.

The review every two years sounds reasonable, but does it mean even I flight regularly, I still have to have a flight instructor to review my skills every two years? If so, can I take it as to maintain the license, I need to have at least a 2-hr review flight every two years, so says, $600 to $700 dollars every two years to maintain the license?

Also, thanks for the information about the private hire, very helpful.

[roger_hujin]

what is it about? I am thinking about go MFT, but it does not harm to shop around?

[just a dumb pilot]

If you are close to Moorabbin check out all the schools and the aircarft they have. Ask about what aircraft they will have for you to hire later on.
All the training should be to a similar standard aircraft rates however do vary dramaticaly.
Ask the schools that you think are interesting Who owns the aircarft and who maintains them. Last thing you want is to fall in love with a particular aircarft and the find out that the owner takes it away.
If you want to fly a Cessna your options are reduced as some operators dont use them.

[roger_hujin]

Hi just a dumb pilot, thanks for the suggestions. I think I will visit moorabbin again and ask them in details, have a look at their aircraft and maybe meet the instructor in person.

[roger_hujin]

To tweekey, thanks for the advice. I think I need to visit MFT again and talk to them in details, but in general, I feel MFT has a very good reputation. As I said, I in fact walked in mft a couple years ago and talked to a guy in the reception, but I think he is one of the instructors as he was in uniform. He is quite friendly and I have a very good feeling of there.

[baswell]

just want to fly a Cessna and take family with me.
You'd be surprised about how many people set out with that goal, only to end up flying alone or with 1 mate most of the time. (The mate usually being a pilot themselves!)

That's no criticism of your plans, just setting expectations here!

If you start with RA (say, at Tooradin) there is nothing stopping you from going to a GA school afterwards, spend another maybe 10 hours flying with them and walk away with a PPL.

You'll save a lot of money in training (Probably ten grand) and those times when you don't fly with your family (i.e.: most of the time) you can hire one of their two seaters for $100/hour less than a Cessna.

Something to think about! :)

(It works the other way around too, get your PPL and then do 5 hours RA, but that obviously won't save you any money training.)

[roger_hujin]

Hi baswell,

Thanks a lot for the suggestions. You did make a point here. I also doubt it myself that wife and kids will be able to enjoy the flight as I do, though I still hope so. But the reality might really be, flying alone or with a mate as you said.

It seems start from a RA is a very reasonable approach and I have done some research about the RA-Aus last night (never know that before) and it seems more cost-effective, or even I would say, too good to be true. Saving ten grands is almost half the cost, and the small light aircraft is also sweet..

However, I do read some posts about the RA hours are not always recognized by the GA flying school, as GA school seems have concern about the quality of the RA training? The last thing I want to see after spending months to purse a RA license is the GA school instructor say, all your RA hours are useless and we have to start over again. So wondering if you or anyone have friends have done that conversion or any success stories around?

[Lasiorhinus]

However, I do read some posts about the RA hours are not always recognized by the GA flying school, as GA school seems have concern about the quality of the RA training? The last thing I want to see after spending months to purse a RA license is the GA school instructor say, all your RA hours are useless and we have to start over again. So wondering if you or anyone have friends have done that conversion or any success stories around?

Find a good RAA school (like Tooradin), and treat RAA flying as just as serious as GA flying. Then, when you want to convert, find a good GA school (like Tooradin). If your school wants you to start back at zero again, theres a good chance you need to find a new school, a good one, not a moneygrabber.

[baswell]

Yes, there are definitely money grabbers out there; if they are concerned that your training wasn't good enough, then they will find out when they start flying with you. If your flying it good enough, your training was good enough!

Finding a school that does both works best. I have no personal experience with Tooradin, but hear good things about them.

I trained at a school at a Parafield that does RA and GA. Got my RA with cross country at just over 40 hours. Then I went of on my own for just over 2 years and another 170 hours.

Now I just finished 9 hours in the C172 and next up is the flight test next week! All I did was the PPL theory test and the flying. (I already had a medical) No need for SPL, fly the GFPT test, etc. (Though without an SPL, I have never actually solo-ed the 172! But there is no requirement for that.)

Another way to do it is a mixed approach that some do is doing basic training in RA and then do all or most of the navs in GA. If you want your full PPL as soon as possible and have your RA to boot, that may be the most efficient way.

A dual school like Tooradin should happily cater for that!

[peterc005]

@roger - Moorabbin is one of the best training airports in the world. Probably dearer than doing RA at Tooradin, but much better if you want to get serious about flying later.

I spend a lot of time at Tooradin and sometimes the RA flying you see down there is scary.

MFT have a good reputation, although other flying schools have better fleets of planes. MFT is possibly the friendliest school at Moorabin.

[SW3]

RAA is by far the cheapest option to learn to fly. If you wish to go further afterwards it is an easy conversion across to GA, whether it be for a PPL or higher.
Some GA schools don't accept the hours however legally they count so don't be put off by that, quite often it's a financial hunger. Given a good instructor, RAA training is as good if not better than GA. An aeroplane is an aeroplane after all.
Shop around and ask around. An experienced and dedicated instructor is worth gold.

[VH-XXX]

I spend a lot of time at Tooradin and sometimes the RA flying you see down there is scary.

I spend a lot of time at Moorabbin and some of the GA flying that you see there is REALLY scary; big bounces, bent undecarriages, prop strikes, planes in ditches, mid-air collisions, fatalities, taxiing collisions, helicopter crashes, engine failures, dodgey radio calls....... In fact I think that Moorabbin would have to be the prop-strike centre of excellence for the last 10 years since the influx of overseas students!

Not really a valid argument that one, about any airport / airfield.

[roger_hujin]

Thank you guys for all these great suggestions and advice. I think I will weight between go for a PPL straight and go a RA first.

I will make a list of questions I want to ask and visit MFT once more, ask them to show me around and try a trail flight.

Tooradin also sounds good, but just a little bit far, 70+km, probably have to be 1.5 hour driving if I go princess hwy. Also I noticed on their website that they will ask people to come fly in 6.00am and they finish the day around mid-day as there are some sea breeze coming in the late of the day. Just thinking about driving to somewhere 1.5 hours away at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning already make moorabbin much more attractive.

However, reading VH-XXX make me concern that if moorabbin is really that bad with all those oversea students? Having family and kids, safety always comes first to me, I understand accident happens in every airfield, but just wondering if moorabbin does have this bad situation more often or still generally good?

P.S: read the MFT newsletter yesterday and saw a notice about some people stopped the aircraft on the runway to switch from tower freq to ground freq. The management required they clear the runway as quick as practical and keep on tower freq until clear the runway, it also pointed out that they understand it might be some "non-local" pilot. I guess they are talking about oversea students?

I am a bit surprised to read that as even I haven't start my flying course, I know the runway should be cleared as quickly as possible and keep on tower freq until cleared, it is kind like some common sense. Cannot imagine why someone will get this wrong.

[baswell]

VH-XXX is being a bit dramatic, to put a probably overly negative comment in perspective! That said: I agree with him there are dangerous situations at both locations.

My perspective is that there is more cowboy-ism away from the major airfields and that applies in equal amounts to GA and RA pilots. The problem is that when a GA pilot does it, he's just an idiot. When someone sees and RA pilot doing it, we're all idiots. Not to mention that at many of these airfield RA outnumbers GA 5 to 1 so yes, you are five times more likely to see an RA pilot being a cowboy there.

The truth is that flying training is safest of all flying with the exception of jet airliners and possibly gliding. Yes, lots of bent aircraft from hard landings, prop strikes, etc. but almost no injuries or fatalities, simply because it is all in such a controlled environment. There is no "get there-itis"; weather not good enough? You are not going on that nav. Crosswind too strong? No solo circuits for you today, my friend!

Where abouts around Melbourne are you? There are other GA/RA fields around the place that may be closer for you.

[VH-XXX]

That's interesting about the crosswinds, I hadn't read that, I'll have to check.

Correct Bas, just making a point.

I don't think any particularly airport around Melbourne stands out as being unsafe, accidents tend to increase with hours flown and nowhere in particular has come up of late as being unsafe.

[roger_hujin]

Thanks baswell. I got your point.

I live in prahran, so should be 30 minutes drive to moorabbin, but tooradin are a bit too far..

[baswell]

That is nice and conveniently close to Moorabin indeed. :)

Again: no personal experience, but there are also schools at Lillydale and Coldstream that seem to be less far away than Tooradin.

Whatever time you spend extra driving to these, you'll probably save in non-existent, expensive taxi and holding time compared to Moorabin.

Probably a good idea to go for a drive and see them too...

[roger_hujin]

Thanks VH-XXX. No concern with safety now.

[Dashtrash]

A few have mentioned it before but it's so important. Feel comfortable with your instructor. There are different grades of instructors. Nothing against Grade3s(I was one once) but it means you'll have to change to a more senior instructor when up for solo checks. This often doesnt go as smoothly as it could. Having been on both sides ( as a Grade1 doing other solo checks) people can get the yips with a different person next to them and not fly as well as they did last lesson. A grade 2 or 1 can do all your solo checks.

You can do a lot towards your smooth progress. Turning up to your lesson well preparred, on time with your sh*t together will go a long way.

You need a flight review every two years. This can be just a straight review or you can combine it with a new aircraft rating so it can be used to fly something new. You need to maintian at least 3 take-off and landing every 90 days. But for safety(especially if your taking the family with you) bank on doing a bit more than that.

Do the CASA medical now, even if you take the path that doesn't need it (not familiar with that one). It's valid for 4 years and will give you the peace of mind that you can actually hold the medical and not give you an unpleasant surprise when you try to change your licence over.

Ask questions. The only silly question is the one you don't ask and nobody has ever died from embaressment.

Enjoy.
DT

[Sykes]

Roger

I lived in Prahran when I started my flying training. I had to go to Tooradin a few times (pick up a/c, job interviews, etc). It only takes around 45 min to get to Tooradin from Prahran.

[roger_hujin]

Dashtrash, thanks for the advice, I do understand having a instructor which I can get along with well is almost the most important thing, and I will definitely ask a lot of questions.:rolleyes:

[roger_hujin]

Sykes, you are surprisingly fast! I haven't been to Tooradin myself, it is the google map which told me it is 70.6km and 1 hr 5 min if I go monash freeway. The time google maps indicates usually will be shorter than the real time spent based on my previous experience, so I thought it might be 1.5 hrs.

how can you make it in 45 minutes..awesome.

[VH-XXX]

Wonder if he floes like he drives. It takes ~38 minutes from Wgl rd/ Monash fwy intersection!

First useful part of PPL, rates and figures. 70kms @ 100 kmh = 1km every 33 seconds so roughly 40 mins if it were 100kmh speed limit, so allow extra time for taxiing and climb (traffic and different speed limits).

[Sykes]

I haven't been to Tooradin myself

Obviously Google maps is more accurate than me actually going there around a dozen times... :hmm:

Wonder if he floes like he drives

LOL :} XXX I didn't speed when I was going there. Maybe you're one of those drivers who drive at 80km/h on a freeway? :} :} :}

[roger_hujin]

Hi Skyes, did not meant to question your data, LOL, just wondering probably you pick the quickest route. Speeding is not wise. If we want go fast, we can always do it on the sky, right?

[roger_hujin]

Just an update. I have been to MFT today, talked to Glenn and asked a lot of questions. Fill up the form and have my first flight lesson booked next week! YAY!

Thanks to everyone who give me advice. :ok: