To IMC or Not To IMC...

[italianjon]

So, trawled through all the pages on here (25-odd on the EASA and the IMCR thread plus a few others) and I am trying to summarise the situation here, as I really am trying to work out whether to do the IMC or not before April...

There is always here-say and rumour, but let me start with the facts and work slowly through. The CAA published in September: -

European Legislation - The Expected Effects on the Licensing of Pilots in the UK - September 2011 (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=620&pagetype=90&pageid=11675)

Frequently Asked Questions concerning the new European rules for pilot licensing (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=620&pagetype=90&pageid=12231)

In the first document, there is no specific mention of the IMCR, but I guess that is expected given the extract from the second document.

25. What is going to happen about the IMC rating?
This has still to be decided. EASA is due to publish a Notice of Proposed Amendment
setting out its own proposals for a simplified instrument rating in September 2011. It is
unlikely that EASA will agree a position on the future of the UK IMC rating, and the
privileges of existing holders of the IMC rating, until sometime after the EASA NPA is
published.

Which obviously aligns with the statements of some in the EASA and the IMCR thread that there is a separate working group for the IR harmonisation.

I also get the feeling from reading the threads that there has also been a lot of compromise from EASA. The original NPA made no reference to the IMCR and effectively abolished it. There is some discussion about EASA making credit for the IMCR and also some credit towards an EIR. (See quote below, from Page 24 of EASA and IMCR thread): -

However, it should be mentioned at this stage that a conversion of existing IMC ratings is already covered by the draft Commission Regulation laying down technical requirements and administrative procedures related to civil aviation aircrew pursuant to Regulation (EC) No 216/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council. This draft Regulation clearly defines that Member States should convert existing licences and ratings into Part-FCL licences and ratings. It is highlighted in this Regulation that Member States should aim at allowing pilots to, as far as possible, maintain their current scope of activities and privileges. The Agency already discussed this issue with the CAA UK and industry experts in order to identify possible options for UK IMC holders. The most favourable solution seems to be that a Part-FCL licence and an IR will be issued with certain conditions on the basis of a specific conversion report in order to reflect the current privileges held. This would allow the existing UK IMC holders to continue to exercise their IMC privileges.


So, with that summarising the position so far, as I understand from the trawl, my thoughts and questions are around the worth of doing the IMCR before April.

There is obviously benefit in having some IR skills as a get out of jail card. So either the IMCR or the EIR will offer this benefit. From that perspective there is no advantage in rushing to get the IMCR done before April.

However, if there is a credit, even if restricted to UK airspace only for the full IMCR privileges then there is benefit in extra effort to get the IMCR before April.

Where I am is do this before April or not..........

But having written this, and allowing me to think things through, the IMCR does teach Instrument Approach, which the EIR will not... and as a get out of jail card, I would rather bust everything and get myself on the ground and have the argument, rather than the alternative of trying to teach myself an instrument approach when I am above cloud and don't have much fuel left because I am on my fifth alternate with no cloud breaks - which let's face it will put a smile on an Undertakers face somewhere!

So, with all that said, anyone up for a JAA school in Florida in Feb/March???

[JOE-FBS]

I spent the time and money doing one last winter and have not regretted it for a moment. Heartily recommended to anyone who has the means and the medical.

On future regulation, the one clear message seems to be that if you have a valid one at the changeover then you'll get to keep it.

Also, if things go as the NPA, you can use both your IMC training and subsequent real IMC P1 time towards the EIR and CBIR.

[JOE-FBS]

PS why do an IMC in Florida? Surely you get better training value where the airspace, radio procedures and weather are relevant to where you will use it? That was my conclusion anyway.

[Cricket23]

I'm doing my IMC now and it's been really good. Certainly sharpening up my flying skills and has added some purpose to the flying - over and above the £100 burger.

I'd recommend it. As per Joe's post, I'd also recommend it doing it in the airsace that you're going to fly in. There's a reasonable amount of radio work and it can only be of assistance to you. Plus, you'll be used to the approach plates and local info for the airports that you are likely to end up in if you go IMC for real.

Also, hasn't the April date slipped to June/July? (can't remember which)

[I Love Flying]

I have just completed my IMC training and got my rating recently ( :) )

I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and would recommend it to anyone.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I spent years NOT doing an IMC and was able to still do plenty of good flying.

I then got around to it (after my CPL!), and wished I'd done it years ago. I have done lots of flights I couldn't have done before, I learned far more on the IMC course than I did on my much longer CPL course, and am definitely a far safer pilot.

Do it whilst you still can!

But yes, do it in the UK where the conditions represent what you'll then be flying in.

G

[Johnm]

JFDI and in the UK

[Roff]

As an IMC rated pilot i hear that my qualification may only be used as a credit to the new IR as of April 2012 (More like April 2015)
which sounds like my IFR privileges will be on hold until i spend loads more money i don't want to spend.

Why should they (EASA) be allowed to do that?
Id never heard of EASA when i started my IMC and now i'm due to renew in March and no one can tell me if i should or if id simply be burning money

[thing]

Just doing mine now. More of a just in case really. Just in case it saves my life and just in case they grandfather the IMCR.

Roff, doesn't matter what they do with it, you have the skills to save your neck. You're hardly going to be in a situation where you have to do an ILS in dodgy conditions to save yourself and think 'Oooh no, better not it's illegal now'.

And exactly how would they police going through cloud to VFR on top? You just went through a gap and was in visual contact with the ground at all times weren't you.

This is the British at their best, complain like hell at the nonsense surrounding EASA and the IMCR and then if they regulate the IMCR out of existence we all lay down like sheep, kick our legs in the air and go 'OK Sir, whatever you say'. Well sod that, I shall continue to use mine and let them try to pin something on me.

[Roff]

Thing
You can learn the skills on a sim.. It's the piece of paper that costs 2k plus!

IMC for me is also the option of leaving an airfield in IMC conditions to get home instead of waiting day's for better wx.

Not just getting me out of the sh*t!

[thing]

I fully agree, I don't see that we're talking about different things here.

[Roff]

Also all this talk of making you a better pilot bla bla bla

The better pilot would take an extra 1 hour ground school in MET instead and learn how to avoid IMC in the first place if he only used it as a 'just incase'

You pass your CBT then you expect to be able to ride your motorbike
Pass your HGV and go and get yourself a job driving lorries
Pass your IMC and f*ck knows what your entitled too come April 2012

[Pom pom]

I would definitely do it. Did mine about 18 months ago and I reckon it's saved some puckering on a few occasions, and quite possibly more on one - deteriorated wx on return to my home field, scud running followed by decision to climb up into cloud (wouldn't have had the confidence to do that without IMCr) for an ILS approach to my alternate. Complicated by my AI toppling seconds after entering very turbulent cloud, and then losing the GS! Broke cloud at 700' on the centre-line with two red two white PAPIs. I later 'phoned my instructor to say a big thank you for teaching me so well, as it was more subconscious and instinctive than I'd have thought possible with my very limited experience.

Absolutely the best money I ever invested!

PS As I understand it, you have to have got the rating before 8th April - the July deadline is just an administration delay.

:ok:

[GeeWhizz]

Italianjon

Do the IMCr. Its good experience whether you use it regularly, or don't and keep it for the insane 'get out of jail' scenario. Another 15 hours of having an instructor, perhaps different from your PPL guy, is invaluable after a period of settling into the solo/pax flying norm. We can all form bad habits and learn something new.

You pass your CBT then you expect to be able to ride your motorbike
Pass your HGV and go and get yourself a job driving lorries
Pass your IMC and f*ck knows what your entitled too come April 2012

Chortle chortle :D

[2high2fastagain]

For me, the thrill of the first precision let-down and seeing airport lights bang in front of me as I broke cloud a little above my DA was every bit as good as the first solo. 'Yes! I'm not going to die today!''

I think the point Roff made about not flying in crap weather is a good one, though those fine fellows and lasses in Exeter don't get it right all the time (to that point I feel they have struggled a bit in the second half of this year). Certainly around where I fly things often change for the worse pretty quickly, so the chance to divert to a long airport runway with a nice ILS and a friendly ATCO does feel good to me.

[mrmum]

Do it, and if you do do it, do it in the UK, with real weather, in the airspace you're actually going to use it in once qualified.

[GeeWhizz]

Out of sheer ignorance and Xenophobia, are international agencies permitted to teach and test for the IMCr? As its a UK national rating I didn't think this was possible.

[BillieBob]

are international agencies permitted to teach and test for the IMCr?No, but training providers established overseas and approved by the UK CAA are.

[CharlieDeltaUK]

Quote:

PS As I understand it, you have to have got the rating before 8th April - the July deadline is just an administration delay.

Is that correct? I thought it was going to be sufficient to start an IMC course, rather than having to complete it, by the relevant date ( whatever that is).

[Fuji Abound]

You can learn the skills on a sim.. It's the piece of paper that costs 2k plus!


Doubtless meant in jest, but actually you cant.

Flying in real weather, making real decisions, and dealing with real situations is a whole lot different. It comes (i hope) with time and experience and sadly cant be earned in a sim or at least not the typical ga sim.

[Roff]

Thing, sorry for the miss understanding!

Guy's my beef is with EASA and the CAA on this 1,
I can not recommend doing the IMCr enough... I really really really advise people to do it before april and always have!

It's the fact these people can just change the rules out of the blue and the result is a few grand out of the direct pockets of us!

I am pissed off that my 'proudly earned' and expensive IMC rating can just be swept from me unless i get my wallet back out...

Imagine the DVLA trying the same thing

[P.Pilcher]

The IMCR was designed for British pilots to be used in British airspace as our rapidly changing weather conditions deemed that the priveleges granted by the rating would be useful and enable PPL's to use their licenses more often and get out of trouble safely if our unpredictable weather caught them out (as it has me).
The weather hasn't changed so PPLs will be less useful without the IMC rating. As everybody else says - get it if you can for safety's sake. Also, have fun practicing instrument approaches on your computer - you never know when such practice may be useful. Several years ago I watched a student with a mere 45 minutes flying experience in a C152 fly a complete ILS in a PA 28 down to a 200' decision height because he had had loads of computer practice. Whatever our brilliant and sensible regulators decide, it is your life, that of your passengers and you need to hold every card to make your flight safer if you can.

P.P.

[pmh1234]

My IMC rating expired in late oct. and haven't had a change to revalidate it yet.
Do I have to do that before April 2012?

[blagger]

pmh - I would strongly recommend you do, there is no hard info at the moment, but having a valid rating at the time of crossover would be the safest option.

[italianjon]

Hi All,

Thank you for the answers very helpful and I would definitely like to do this.

The reason I thought of Florida, and I have not decided completely yet, is that I am currently living in Germany for work, and as it is a temporary placement I will get pulled back to the UK at some point (hence I would love the IMCR). So it is difficult for me to do the training at the weekends.

My thinking is to take some leave from work and do the training with an average of 2 to 3 flying hours per day.

If that is possible in the UK, then I would do that in the UK. I am just remembering the number of days spent looking skyward during December to May time (mainly due to winds); and the thinking that the US would offer almost guaranteed flying every day to ensure I could complete the training during a period of leave.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a school to do the IMCR in the UK that would be willing to offer a more intensive training? London Area/Southampton Area would be the most preferable, although I could B&B it anywhere for a week.

[Whiskey Bravo]

I completed an intensive IMC in the UK back in September. The fact that it is instrument flying means that you are not going to have to cancel due to wx as much as on a PPL course. Flying in real weather as opposed to under the hood is quite different and you really want to experience it. Flying around with a visor on in Florida is going to be a totally different experience than descending through thick cloud and turbulence.

Anyway, I would certainly recommend doing it and assuming we are allowed to continue to use it post April, make sure you keep the skills current. I am doing quite a few flights now that I couldn't have done before, we just keep it safe by having two IMCr pilots in the cockpit to share the workload.

Enjoy! Some of our training videos are here too: EGHHFlyers's Channel - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/eghhflyers)

[Whiskey Bravo]

... and for a school you could do much worse than Bournemouth Flying Club. CFI is Tim - have a look on the website and give them a call.

[thing]

That's a good point about the weather for training. It doesn't matter if it's crap because that's what you are training for. I had to cancel a lesson today and it's been quite sunny here with superb vis. I was cursing my luck not to be flying on such a nice day when the thought struck me that I would be wearing the foggles for 95% of the flight anyway, doesn't matter whether the weather is great or dog when you're training for IMCR.

[mrmum]

I'd be shocked if you had any trouble at all getting a club to do an IMCr in a week for you here in the UK, I'd offer myself if I was based in the bottom right-hand corner.
You should get far fewer wx cancels than with a PPL course. It's all dual, the only wx that should ground you is vis. or cloudbase below minima, (which doesn't happen very often actually), wind over aircraft limits or airframe icing conditions.
Seriously consider using a school based somewhere with IAP's, it'll minimise the chances of weather cancels and remove the need for positioning flights, both important if you want it done in a week or so.
Also, as with any intensive flying course, try and get the theory exam done early.
Enjoy it, it's a great course, it'll be terrible if we do lose it. The two landmark moments are usually the first time you climb through an overcast and pop out into brilliant sunshine & blue skies on top, then when the runway seems to magically appear out of the murk from 500' on the ILS. It's fantastic to watch people's reactions to these two events.

[JOE-FBS]

If you are able / willing to leave the south coast, Coventry has an ILS in both runway directions (I keep finding airfields that only have them south-westerly), is open long hours (so could do the night qualification while you are at it), is not very expensive (eight pounds for a T&G off a radar vectored ILS recently) and quiet. There are six FTOs there: Almat, Aeros, Coventry Aero Club, Atlantic Flight Training, Classic Flight Flying Club (it has standard aircraft as well as classics) and Midland Air Training.

[Whiskey Bravo]

Good point about approach costs etc. At Bournemouth they were included. There is an ILS on both ends of the runway too.

[BackPacker]

I was planning to do this last year but never go to it. With EASA now round the corner, it's becoming a little more urgent.

Doing this in the UK (Bournemouth sounds good!), would 7 days somewhere in January/February 2012 be sufficient for an intensive course (weather permitting of course - but that's the whole point of an IMC...)?

I've got a UK issued JAR-FCL PPL. I realise I won't be able to use the rating in the Netherlands (other than VFR-on-top), at least until April 2012, and I know the situation after April 2012 is still unclear.

[Whiskey Bravo]

BackPacker. You'd need a better mind than me to work out whether any UK IMC rating you do now will ever lead to any useful qualification you can use in the Netherlands under EASA in the future. I think the general consensus (and I am sure to be corrected) is that that the IMC rights will be grandfathered by EASA allowing local licensing authorities to add additional privileges to licenses so that equivalents of the national ratings can be maintained.

Whether you could do the course in 7 days is a good question. When I did mine, there were two of us back seating each other’s lessons. Generally we would fly two sorties each per day. You'll probably find that at the beginning two hours per day is enough as it is quite hard work. Once the basics are grasped you could probably managed three per day. The only problem with Jan and Feb will be the number of light hours in the day... Not sure if you can combine the night rating and IMC, or whether if you already have a night rating whether you could do the IMC training during the hours of darkness.

I'd highly recommend giving the folks at Bournemouth Flying Club a call; I may be a little biased, but I have done all of my training there and completed everything in minimum hours and with positive feedback from the examiners. They are a nice bunch of people too!

[IO540]

What I would strongly recommend for any initial instrument qualification is to get a basic sim (FSX will do) and hammer that until you know the procedures fully.

One should never get airborne in a real plane unless one knows everything one is supposed to be doing when up there.

Up there is no place to learn procedures, yet that is exactly what most instrument pilot trainees end up doing. It is a slow process because one's brain is so overloaded just hand flying the plane.

So, get yourself FSX, a cheap £10 stick (no need for a yoke or pedals), a pile of old approach plates, and make sure you can fly every plate which somebody sticks under your nose, within 5 minutes.

I saved myself many hours, and four figures, with FS2000, on the IMCR training. After that, on the FAA IR, I never used the sim because there was nothing in the FAA IR which I didn't already know. Similarly, in the JAA IR, there is nothing I new (apart from a load of NDB hold stuff, ADF dip estimation, etc :) ).

[GeeWhizz]

I saved myself many hours, and four figures, with FS2000, on the IMCR training.

Seconded! (with FSX)

[BackPacker]

IO540, been there, done that. Holds, SIDs, STARs and airways too, by the way, without the need for a simulated GPS even. Just need to do it for real...

[Roff]

Question for fs2004 users, is their a way to start position the aircraft where you want it 'Closing the localiser' rather than flying yourself to the position?

Roff

[BackPacker]

Roff, look for the "slew" mode. From memory - Capital R. This will suspend the aircraft in midair and you can then fly it to whatever location you want - helicopter style.

Once in the proper position, save the game so you can go back to that position later.

[Roff]

:) Straight up the stairs i go to try it

[rich_g85]

It's 'y' for slew on Flight Sim :)

[742-xx]

So, realistically, what kind of timescale are we talking to get your IMCR ?

If it finishes in April surely it'll be a struggle ?

[IO540]

It depends a lot on how often you fly.

The average TT is ~ 20 hours.

IMHO, flying a minimum once a week is highly desirable otherwise one just goes rusty.

You can do 20hrs between now and April, easily.

The conditions are not required to be VFR, which helps. For example I have been doing the FAA IR to JAA IR conversion, at an airport which has an 800ft decision height, and have so far done ~16hrs (only the 170A and the test to do now), and flying 2x a week I have not lost a single lesson due to weather. Most of the flights were in non-VFR conditions, and most in some rain.

But what has helped a lot is the unusually warm temperatures we are getting. It is was below zero at a few thousand feet, extended flight in IMC is a no-no in a spamcan.

[BEagle]

Some more clarification from the CAA regarding the IMCR:

1. Pilots may continue training for the IMCR for as long as they wish.
2. The IMCR may be included in a JAR-FCL or old-style UK PPL until 30 Jun 2012.
3. The IMCR may be included in a supplementary United Kingdom PPL after 30 Jun 2012.
4. An IMCR may be used on EASA and non-EASA aeroplanes until Apr 2015 (for private purposes).
5. An IMCR may be used on non-EASA aeroplanes indefinitely.
6. The precise method for grandfathering existing IMCR privileges onto EASA part-FCL licences is as yet unknown, as is the cut-off date for such grandfathering.
7. Grandfathered IMC privileges on EASA part-FCL licences may be used on both EASA and non-EASA aeroplanes indefintely.

[LeeP-PA28]

Whilst flight is in either simulated IMC or real IMc, I know of very few instructors who will actually instruct if the cloudbase isn't 1500ft at least for an IMC rating.

I tend to agree with this also. Whilst I did my intense course in just 5 days inlcuding the exam, there was 1 day where the cloud was a solid 900ft, tops of 2300ft. I queried why we wouldn't train in this as I was likely to take off in said conditions. It was down to instructor opinion that should the engine fail and you are in IMC / on top and have to descend through a solid layer of cloud to only 900ft, you have perhaps less than 60 secs to select a suitable landing place. You may end up on the top of a congested city, perhaps terrain depending if you had a full instrument failure / disorientation.

If it was broken / scattered 900ft, so you could see something below he was quite happy.

Just worth pointing out that whilst we, who may fly in said conditions, the OP FTO may have their own limits which may hinder training.

[Pull what]

You also need to consider that icing is an instructor concern (in a/c not approved for icing conditions) at this time of year too-better to descend out of cloud than to fall out of it.

[IO540]

You may end up on the top of a congested city, perhaps terrain depending if you had a full instrument failure / disorientation.Not if you have a half decent GPS, and nobody should be doing IFR (and IMHO VFR nav too) without at least the instructor having a GPS running constantly.

Icing conditions do remain a problem in the winter for even low altitude flight, but in most conditions of 900ft base and 2300ft tops, stratus, there is very unlikely to be be ice in there. Much depends on the surface temperature of course; if it is say +3C or warmer, you have an obvious escape route. I am a whole lot more fussy about icing conditions if the surface is freezing too.

But given the above cloud example, it is likely to be full of holes, and with blue sky above. Perfect conditions for teaching IFR nav, above it. The other possibility is a fairly typical winter high pressure situation where it is just a well defined, thin but uniform layer.

[Pull what]

Icing is much more of a problem in SC than status

[IO540]

Any kind of convective cloud is bad news for structural ice, but the by far worst ice encounter I have ever had was in NS, base 1500ft and smooth, tops 4000ft and smooth, all very smooth with zero turbulence, SFC temp +3C, temp in cloud at 3700ft -5C, 30mm of clear+rime collected in 5-10 mins. Max engine power (TKS deiced prop) i.e. 250HP and could not climb. Vs rose to about 100kt and that was also the max speed achievable in level flight.

I got out of there fairly quick ;) but I was content to give it a go for the extra few mins after I spotted it (I watch for ice constantly in IMC below 0C, obviously) because I knew the easy escape route was by descent.

No control problems provided one kept the speed up, preferably in a descent at 120kt :)

That established the absolute limit for the aircraft.

Interestingly, climb or descent through the same layer, 1000fpm, collected under 5mm, which hardly matters on the TB.

Most pilots will tell of similar stories, but not openly.

Of course nobody has ever done it in a PA28... and 1mm will definitely kill you :)

Ice is very hazardous but knowledge is better than ignorance or blind fear.

[LeeP-PA28]

IO540,

I thought it was discouraged for pilots (students) to rely on a none-certified device? For sure, when I fly I have both my iPad 2 available in the back, and my 795 on the yoke but for instructional purposes, flying/intercepting a radial, tracking an NDB etc are far better done without a GPS *initially*.

I would also have thought that an instructor in the local flying ground would know the local VOR's and 'safe' radials to work to/from for the basis of teaching climbing/descending in IMC, maneuvering etc but alas no, not a single instructor who I ever flew with in IMC (4 in total, 2 for training and 2 personal checkrides for ensuring I'm doing nothing dangerous several hours into solo IFR flying) have ever taken a GPS with them.

But I totally agree with your other point, icing conditions are more a concern this time of year. I've experienced myself being in the freezing level and climbing through it and seeing +6 degrees on top, but in the descent you obviously get a supercold shell, and descending through moist air is always going to a factor.

I believe the CFI where I was based said that descending quick (cruise speed almost) should generate enough friction on the leading edge to keep it from icing in those conditions. Not experienced it myself yet - most of my descents have been controlled between 500fpm - 800fpm and nothing more when breaking into VMC. I guess time will tell ... :)

[IO540]

I thought it was discouraged for pilots (students) to rely on a none-certified device? Discouraged by some of the ageing ex RAF jolly good chaps who went to the CAA to continue their pension contributions :)

No legal basis for that at all.

For sure, when I fly I have both my iPad 2 available in the back, and my 795 on the yoke but for instructional purposes, flying/intercepting a radial, tracking an NDB etc are far better done without a GPS *initially*.Yes, for training purposes, and then the instructor should use the best tools available to make sure they don't both get lost. Look up that recent CFIT somewhere in or near Wales, for example. That was a dual instructional flight. Astonishingly they both survived.

I would also have thought that an instructor in the local flying ground would know the local VOR's and 'safe' radials to work to/from for the basis of teaching climbing/descending in IMC, maneuvering etc but alas no, not a single instructor who I ever flew with in IMC (4 in total, 2 for training and 2 personal checkrides for ensuring I'm doing nothing dangerous several hours into solo IFR flying) have ever taken a GPS with them.Their choice. But then very few instructors ever go past the nearest crease in the chart.

[CharlieDeltaUK]

Quote:

The IMCR may be included in a supplementary United Kingdom PPL after 30 Jun 2012.

So, does that mean Jun 2012 is the deadline for an existing JAR PPL?

[BEagle]

Currently, after 30 Jun 2012 you will need to obtain a supplementary United Kingdom PPL (paperwork exercise) in which to include the IMCR if you haven't included it in a JAR-FCL PPL before that date.

[mrmum]

I believe the CFI where I was based said that descending quick (cruise speed almost) should generate enough friction on the leading edge to keep it from icing in those conditions. :eek: Was that meant to be tongue-in-cheek? Almost cruise speed in your PA28 is what-90kts? I've picked up airframe icing descending through cloud in a Saratoga at IAS 180kts. So we know that concorde got warm from friction, flying at Mach 2, but isn't is just wind chill at our kind of speeds?

[BEagle]

I believe the CFI where I was based said that descending quick (cruise speed almost) should generate enough friction on the leading edge to keep it from icing in those conditions.

Let's say you're cruising at FL50 at ISA-5°C. The static air temperature would therefore be +0.1°C. According to a very handy application which I use, the total air temperature at 105KIAS will be about +1.7°C; if you increased speed to 150KIAS it would be +3.5°C and at 180KIAS it would be +4.9°C.

So I suppose that a little ice formed at +0.1°C on the leading edge might be persuaded to melt and detach with an increase to 180KIAS - the vibration and buffeting of the average spamcan might also help to shake it loose. On the other hand, of course TAT is really only accurate at the stagnation point, so that nicely melted ice might simply dribble back and freeze again on a cold-soaked aerofoil...:suspect:??

[BackPacker]

I believe the CFI where I was based said that descending quick (cruise speed almost) should generate enough friction on the leading edge to keep it from icing in those conditions.

When I saw this posted I was itching to respond too, until I realized I don't have enough data. But my gut feeling told me that it was wildly inaccurate.

As far as I know, water can exist in supercooled, liquid form, up to -15C. So in order to be safe from icing the friction has to generate at least 15C of heat. As far as I know, that only happens if you get into the 500 knot+ region. In other words: airliners that routinely fly at mach 0.8 or thereabouts. Not in the spamcans we generally fly in this forum.

But I'd be very interested in knowing the calculations behind what Beagle wrote, above. It's not something that was covered in my PPL theory, at least.

Anyway, supporting my case, if you look at propellors of de-iced aircraft you'll find that the inner half or third is heated or TKS de-iced. Only the outermost half or two thirds is not de-iced. Assuming that the tips rotate at mach 0.8 or thereabouts (which is the normal propellor limit - above this you will get mach effects which leads to a reduction in efficiency, and a significant increase in noise), that means that anything below mach 0.27 or thereabouts needs to be forcibly de-iced, and cannot be safe from icing by friction effects alone.

[thing]

As far as I know, water can exist in supercooled, liquid form, up to -15C.

About -50C actually. If you cool it quick enough (not in any conditions you would find while flying) you can get it down to about -100C.

[onebounce]

Hi

pboyall - can you verify your quote ---

"2. The IMCR may be included in a JAR-FCL or old-style UK PPL until 30 Jun 2012"

I too have been exploring the option to take the IMCR in Florida (for various personal reasons...) and have correspondance from the CAA that, after several explicit questions, eventually confirms that the latest date for the CAA to recieve your IMCR application is approximately 10 working days before the 8th April deadline. In my estimation, this makes the latest possible start date for the training about mid March (or a v little later if you want to push it...).

I have a JAR-FCL (obtained at the same Florida school) and if there are a few months extra that would be great, but as of correspondance from the CAA dated 7th October 2011, the deadline is still 8/4/2012, and I am currently planning on that basis.

Is the admin extension for license issue being confused with the (unchanged) 8/4/2012 deadline ?

[Slopey]

onebounce - the original post was from BEagle, pboyall was just replying to it.

I'm in a similar boat, desperate to get the IMCR done before the deadline but stuffed with work commitments it looks like. If there's an extra 2 months, I'm sorted!

BEagle - is there a link/reference for those dates you could provide?

Also, what is a "supplementary UK PPL"? Or does that just mean an old style CAA non-expiring PPL?

[BillieBob]

The UK CAA will re-introduce the national 'lifetime' PPL (and CPL and ATPL) for use on UK-registered Annexe II aircraft. It will continue to be possible to add an IMC rating to these licences but not to an EASA licence. When UK issued JAA licences are re-issued as EASA licences, any non-EASA ratings, such as the IMC will be removed. It is also worth noting that any other ratings (e.g. class or type ratings) that are not current at the time of re-issue will not be transferred to the new licence.

[Aware]

There seems to be quite a few definitive answers on this thread re IMC they seem to make sense but having just converted my professional license to JAR(I have a lifetime CAA PPL circa 1984 as well) Im concerned, where are the answers sourced from or are they an interpretation of what may happen or have I missed a docment issue from the powers to be as at end of last week my understanding from aopa and caa nothing confirmed as yet Thanks

[italianjon]

All,

Thanks for the help in deciding and setting up the course etc. loads of PMs which was fantastic.

Had a thought and I will be honest I have not had a chance to google yet, and it is more for interest sake, but as mentioned I am in Germany at the moment, and doing the IMC rating for when I return...

But what if I flew a D-Reg say Cessna or Piper over to the UK, can I use the IMC rating as I cross the FIR Boundary? Or as it is a D-Reg is it still "verboten"?