No Confidence. Vote here.

[MACH082]

I vote yes. :ok:


POST NO 4 IS THE FIRST POST FOR THIS THREAD! :ugh:

Tail Wheel

[jas24zzk]

I see CASA as no different to any other government institution, all the way down to Council level.
They are more concerned with job justification (security) than they are about delivering positive outcomes. In the case of JQ, it even appears to me, that they have no safety mechanism for themselves to halt a process they begin when it becomes evident that the outcome will have no benefit to safety. Heck, if you look in the regs there are penalty units applied to most of the stuff. It might have been more appropriate to issue JQ with a fine based penalty. Without hindsight he might have fought it, with hindsight it would have been a better option for all concerned.


I get more and more less proud to be an Aussie everyday when I see this sort of muppetry in motion. I have always felt my vote as basically worthless, with a strong feeling of I make no difference in the greater scheme. Its not just CASA, but every element of our lives is over regulated, over charged, and we are almost powerless to get it fixed, whilst those f*cking it get paid more and more.

I'm not one for jumping on causes, often viewing those driving them as fruitcakes. Pass the custard.

Yes.

mcdonal. I also had the token expired response that Frank got on my first attempt at posting. CASA's IT dept 'working' the thread?

[rmcdonal]

I vote Yay,

Something weird going on as Kharon started the thread but is number 3 on the post list.

And I posted after jas24zzk's second post.

[Kharon]

Well, the gauntlet has been thrown down, the challenge accepted.

If enough support can be indicated, anonymously, here on Pprune it is proposed that a formal petition be presented to one of our aviation aware Senators for consideration by the Senate.

Petition is HERE No confidence in CASA Petition (http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/no-confidence-in-casa.html)

The properly drafted petition will present a No Confidence statement in the Director, Deputy Director and Executive Manger Legal Services; and call for the immediate independent investigation of the complaints raised within the petition.

In our opinion the CASA is not providing Australia with the service required, frivolously wastes vast sums of tax payer money, deceives the Minister and achieves inferior safety outcomes. The negative impact of the ideology and management of the CASA is acting to provide a probable negative safety outcome which will, one day result in a serious accident.

I and many others believe the current ethos of maximum administrative punishment, minimum criminal prosecution and the almost total lack of quantifiable safety outcomes is detrimental to achieving increased, outcome based safety standards.

There are many issues; but radically the pervading 'Culture of Fear', intimidation, mendacity and total lack of accountability has been allowed to become a 'normalised deficiency'.

1000 signatures would be regarded as 'an avalanche of expert opinion'; 5 times that number would ensure the way aviation safety is regulated and managed a matter of national concern.

It should be, but who else apart from the victims of this arrogant, self regulating, self aggrandising, crippled thing we refer to as the 'Safety Authority' would know ?.

Speak now, or forever hold your peace.

Selah.

[Kharon]

This is a serious attempt to establish that there is real outcry against the CASA.

The message is simple; we the industry (undersigned) have had a 'guts full'.

To take this project to a Senate quality document against a 'monster' is going to take time, money and a modicum of talent.

Show your support or lack thereof; log on, post a simple Yeah or Nay, this will allow the Gods to decide if our claims are worth pursuing.

Your life, your criminal record, your industry.

Your call lads and lasses.

Selah - (big time).

PS; plain enough Jabba, I tried mate. More cryptic crosswords next week. :D http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Frank Arouet]

What does "token expired" mean when attempting to answer this post?

[Kharon]

Frank - ho ho :D Yeah or Nay Votaire - No Do Be Do.

To do is Voltare, to Be is Hamlet and to Do Be Do is Sinatra. I know, it's an oldie. :D

[Fantome]

I and at least five non-prooners scarred by the regulator will
sign.

(If mystified by Voltaire references - his real name was Frank Arouet. Or perhaps Francois? Improbable the living breathing F.A.'s real name is Voltaire . . . . . Unless he took such a shine to the handle with an aerial flavour he legalised it. Like a certain Mr JL Seagull who really is so legally known, living in blissful hippiedom in NE NSW. Old mate and I have met him, seen his deep poll papers .. . Seen him swoop in and snatch up others' fried chips too.)

[aroa]

YES to that in spades !!!!

As for my Life. Job and income fcuked over by CASA.

As for my criminal record. CASA gave me that too. Had SFA to do about preventing aeroplanes falling from the sky, or anything to do with safety, buts that's the nature of the beast we MUST put to the sword.

As for 'my' industry...and yours. Absolutely worth fighting for, as a vital slice of GAFA infrastructure, our right to fly safely or even be on the tarmac without fear of retribution from some FOI, AWI that has 'sh*t on the liver' for the day.
Our right NOT to fcuked over by power crazy immoral bastards that cant even spell 'integrity', let alone know what it means.
Some plain old fashioned, credible leadership would have helped ?.. but its passed saving now. The use by date is long gone.

We, the aviation people DEMAND common sense, sanity... and democracy to mean something, for the industry we are in, because we enjoy doing what we do. (did)

I'll use the analogy that a CASA bum used to one of my clients ...
Think of xxxxx aeroplane ( insert CASA) as a sh*t heap of a bus that he got (came) off the dump. Would you ride in that?
CASA is that bus. We've been forced to ride in it for far too long.
Its time we all got off... and burnt it.

[Jabawocky]

I will sign it.

I had an interview with a consultant company on behalf of CASA today and part of the discussion was the pilot communities view on CASA, now that is not a question to ask a pilot, but anyway I answered.

The problem is people view CASA just the same as a policeman in either of the following scenario's.

A: Small country town, local copper pulls you over for a few k's over, or answering a phone or something that in the circumstances was not dangerous, but against a rule. He says, young Jaba, that might be OK and safe here but in a school zone or somewhere else not so. How about you be more careful, if I see you do it again you might get a ticket. OK? Now scoot and be more careful. And by the way whats with that crack in your windscreen?

B: Big city copper, same infringement, copper books you, nasty tone, and then books you for a windscreen crak that happend 5k up the road because a truck illegally had an uncovered load, and then you get really pi$$ed.

So tel me which version do you see being the one likely to produce a better safety outcome? how would country copper have handled situation B, an educational talking to, and telling you to get mick the mechanic in town to replace your windscreen, and by the way I will talk to Troy the Truckie about covering his loads.

Now how does industry view CASA? Its a no brainer.

They need a major marketing makeover but first they need to improve their product.

[thorn bird]

Is it time? damn right it is. My vote "YES".
The aviation industry in Australia is being
slowly strangled by regulation. Unless there is
dramatic change it will continue to decline into oblivion.
Simple comparisons of the shear volume of Australian
regulations against comparable 1st world countries where aviation
is healthily growing, against safety outcomes here and there
would indicate that the way we are doing things is NOT
producing the desired results, just heaping regulatory cost
upon regulatory cost for no tangible result.

[jas24zzk]

wtf is up with the database? I posted after thornbird

[gupta]

I'll vote yes also. Jaba's hit it spot on

The time stamp fairy is working overtime - posted at 0835 EDST

[forever flying]

My vote is Yes!

[Kharon]

Data Base ????

[Avgas172]

My vote is a big YES

[Mainframe]

My vote is a resounding YES

Who has forgotten the rotten mess of CASA in Far Nth Qld, subsequently cleaned up by Byron?

What sort of inept area manager allowed the misconduct to re emerge, worse than ever?

It's not just North Qld, there are several area offices through out Australia embracing the Manual of Standards for Dirty Tricks.

[airag]

I vote yes , after seeing what CASA did to GAAP with no industry consultation and negative outcomes in regard to operational safety / simplicity and efficiency

[dat581]

Yes, the way CASA is going we will need an endorsment to have a pee. :ugh:

[gobbledock]

In true bureaucratic wank speach I vote a resounding, robust, overarching YES. This truly malfeasant mob of misfits is a total trainwreck that needs to be cleared if Australian aviation is to move forward.The history of this mob alone tells you that their system is not working.
Some of the reasons that they receive my vote of no confidence is;


The inability to either maintain, oversight or implement a workable aviation rule set. The fact that they are yet to finish rewriting the regs after 23 years of trying proves that they simply cannot do it. Somebody needs to be able to do it, and these nupty's can't, so it is time to introduce a regulatory body that can do it.
Bullying of industry - Mistreatment of individual people and oragnisations. The allegations of malfeasance and palpable treatment of innocent individuals is beyond reproach.As has been mentioned earlier, some minor broom work has taken place over the years but the systemic problems remain, and have done so for decades.
Nepotism and inconsistencies.
Incompetence.
Waste of taxpayer money. How is it that the executives earn bonuses? This is a non profit regulator, how can a bonus be paid to executives? Not to mention Chairmans Lounge memberships and business class travel. Is this not breaking the golden rule of 'the line in the sand' between regulator and industry? How can you provide unbiased oversight when receiving perks from an operator?
Out of touch - Many of the executives need to collect their pensions and head off to retirement villa's. They have spent decades out of touch with reality and industry, they have no idea what the real aviation world is about, all they understand is how to locate the next feed trough and bury their snouts into it. Management should serve a 3 year term similar to a political term, except at the end of 3 years it is a gaurenteed replacement. Some of these CASA indviduals have spent almost an entrie working life there, how the hell would or could they be able to provide an effective service when they havent ever stepped foot into the real world. It is time to replace them with current/fresh industry capable people.
Smoke and mirrors - The continual smoke and mirror carnival needs to be gutted. Shuffling of money, resources, projects from one location to another to keep ahead of the government's eye (if they are watching) has been going on for decades. Wasteage of money on incompleted projects either improperly managed, never finsihed or 'shelved' is atrocious.
NO ACCOUNTABILITY - A lack of a fair or just appeal system for those who are prosecuted, often unjustly. If CASA are found to be unjust or unfair in their actions they receive a get out of jail free card. Nobody gets punished, nobody wears accountability, nobody is 'asked to explain'. Then you have an ethics commitee made up from internal senior executives. This is possibly one of the most unethical processes I have ever heard of. It is as workable as having a team of oil executives investigating price fixing !!They have the absolute freedom and permision to pursue an operator or individual at any expense without any justification or recourse. The use of taxpayer funds without reasonable use is a disgrace.
Inconsistent application or understanding of rules and regulations - Why does one field office have a different 'take' or understanding of a rule, reg or process, compared to another office? How can this be? Again, systemic issues that remain unmitigated.
Finally, my favourite - INTENT. What a load of sh#t. Lawyer a#sholes allowed to write something in a manner so that it can be used either for or against you, at their discretion. Absolut crap. INTENT NEEDS TO BE ROMOVED, as it is abused habitually. E.G If you were speeding and got caught going over the set speed limit it is not 'intent', the speed limit is not oepn to twisted interpretation. Either you WERE speeding or you WEREN'T.
I could list countless examples of deficiencies but simply do not have the time. There is enough knowledge internally and externally within the Australian aviation fraternity to conclusively back the fact that we do not have confidence in CASA, or in a Minister that is completely disconnected and living between cloud cuckoo land and a trough.

[Sarcs]

That's a "YES" from me!

Although there are some good people on the coalface, most of the time they're hamstrung by the wheelings and dealings of the corrupt upper echelon of the regulator!

[Aussie Bob]

Wtf does token expired mean? A CASA plot?

Yes from me if prune lets me submit reply on the forth attempt

[SIUYA]

What gobbledock said - YES

[Jabawocky]

No matter what the outcome with the JQ'S case, we all need to remember that it is time for CASA to open its ears and listen and learn.

This thread is not about a witch hunt, although perhaps a few witches need burning at the stake, but it is more about getting a closer working relationship between the regulator and everyone else. The JQ case is just a leading example of where the regulator is in need of our help.

Remember many are good folk, helpful and not like this madness mindset. The rest need education or a new career.

I have to work with CASA in a small way, I'm seeing some positive changes. Yet others are not.

If I was in J Mac's shoes I would be on the case of all FOI's demanding no prosecutions, unless really necessary as they cost far too much money. I would be insisting on, no, demanding, more country town copper hey son, let's have a talk about this, kind of field education.

As pilots and LAMES we need to have a different feeling towards the CASA field folk. As an example when I do an instrument renewal with Alan Dunbar, I look forward to the experience, is he a soft touch, no way, but it is always an educational experience. You come away from it having learned heaps, and better for it. Instead with a CASA rep, mostly folk will shut up or hide from them. And chances are a few of them might be like Alan Dunbar.

We need to get to the point where a CASA rep is not feared, if they wander into a hangar or onto the apron, people feel happy to see them and great them in the hope they may actually share something good. It may be we share something that educates them, or alerts them to something that needs attention. Now wouldn't that be different?

In order to get closer to the industry CASA need to have a complete, not partial, a complete image change, as I said before, they need to sell themselves better, but first they need to improve the product.

The JQ case should never have gone past a few meetings, compare notes, and in the end CASA agreeing the flying was not outside the limits but maybe right on them, and the operator and all it's pilots agreeing to tone it down a bit. Instead of a let's nail his arse big time approach. If a closer more proactive approach was taken years ago, the Metro would not be speared into that hill in FNQ.

If JMAC or anyone at CASA wants to discuss this further, or contract me as a change culture consultant, let me know.

[Kharon]

Wiser heads suggest that a 'secret' ballot may be preferred by Pruners 'a feared of incoming Flak".

The numbers seem to confirm this. Want to support John Quadrio, but not here??.

Use the PM system either to me or John. Just need the numbers, not the names.

It could be your turn tomorrow.

[kimwestt]

For ALL the reasons mentioned, and a few more besides, I VOTE YES
What the hell does the CASA think they are achieving having a low time charter pilot do assymetrics on a Mark 1 desk top almost simulator, and then tell the pilot, "Righto matey, youre now good to go, and you handled the engine failure real well." Now that'd be a huge safety outcome. What a load of bollocks. And then again, there are the FOI's who consider their own version of a VLJ check list is superior to that of the manafacturer. I'd put him on a list. I'm sure he'd not be missed!! (Apologies to G&S).

[S-N-A-F-U]

Good analogy Jaba :D
Yes from me

[thorn bird]

Jab's mate...."AH HAD A DREAM" Oh how I wish....
Unfortunately the Russ Evans, Ces Slyes, Tom Curlewises and so many more who did so much to nurture, promote,and where necessary head butt the industry along the path to safety are no more. Men with Integrity, a genuine love for their industry, and more than anything, experience and competency. They didnt need to resort to the "Who's got a bigger Dick" response that one see's with so many of the current crop, who hide behind their inadequancy and just sit spouting regulations they dont really understand.
Your vision is real, it happens every day in the USA because by and large those that oversee the regulations are competent, experienced and have integrity, and as a result "RESPECT".
Nobody's system is perfect, ours is just a total Cluster F..ck.
My dream?..make flying fun again.

[anothertwit]

Big fat YES from me too! :ok:

[Pinky the pilot]

Verily doth Jabawocky speak truth!:ok:

Likewise, a Yes from me.

[Kharon]

As requested - Your petition.

"Click" the link below to sign the petition.


No confidence in CASA Petition (http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/no-confidence-in-casa.html)


"Click" the link above to sign the petition.


To the Honourable President and members of the Senate in Parliament assembled. Your petitioners, undersigned, support a statement of no confidence in the current senior management of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA).

1) Your petitioners from the Australian aviation industry request that the Senate record our statement of "no confidence" in the Director of Aviation Safety and senior management of the CASA.

a) Petitioners have serious concerns that the oversight of aviation operational safety, regulatory reform, incident investigation, immediate and subsequent enforcement actions, their impact on the well being of the industry and the cost of these actions are a public and legal embarrassment to the Government and industry domestically and internationally.

b) Petitioners believe that current mismanagement is producing negative safety outcomes, detrimental to the concept of 'just culture'; inhibiting the industry from freely, and in concert with the 'Authority', developing superior outcome based safety management, compliance and enforcement protocols.

2) Your petitioners request that the Senate initiate a transparent judicial enquiry; supported by independent aviation industry experts into the actions of the CASA which resulted in proceedings against companies and individuals from industry.

a) Your petitioners ask that the Senate request and require the enquiring body to accept, consider and investigate evidence provided under statutory declaration from interested parties, under terms of reference to be decided by the Senate Estimates Committee, allowing wide consultation with, and submissions from industry as part of the due process.

WC – 240. Should you elect to support the petition the hyperlink below will take you to a secure website where your email address and name will be recorded. The recorded information will not be publicly available or visible and will only be 'harvested' immediately prior to presentation to a Senator. The prompts are straight forward.



No confidence in CASA Petition (http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/no-confidence-in-casa.html)


Handing over -

[aroa]

Been there, signed that.! Plenty ahead of me .. and BIG HEAPS to follow.

This is THE chance to get some political leverage to FINALLY get something done about that bastard bureaucrazy that has had such a negative and depressing effect on aviation generally and GA in particular.

Be assured that the required changes will NEVER come from CASA, the dinosaur of the 21st century. Its too hide-bound and has too many people of the wrong mind-set in the wrong places. To our great detriment.

But you know all that.

Sign up!.... and be part of the meteorite, incoming for an extinction. :ok:

[insydney]

as promised here it is, follow this link to cast your vote:

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/470312-proposed-senate-aviation-regulatory-petition.html

[Fantome]

Some apt reflections to do with straight and crooked thinking by the Rt Hon Lord Denning, regarded by many as the greatest British jurist of modern times. He conceded that he'd often changed his mind after hearing argument. He said he often found reasoning to be fallacious, and that first impressions were frequently wrong, on those occasions when one's outlook was distorted by prejudice.

Man of high principle and acute sensibility that he was, all his life he felt "restless under authority", when he knew it to be wrong. Yet in his position he held it his duty to abide by it, except when he could persuade his brethren of an injustice. He never waivered from his conviction that when authority is shown to be wrong, the time shall come, or at least should come, when it will be overthrown. In the late seventies, as he was he was coming to the end of a long, arduous and meritorious career, he wrote -

"The strict constructionists still hold their fortress. The officious bystander still dominates the field. The court of appeal is still bound hand and foot. The powerful still abuse their powers without restraint."

(A constructionist is one who views all laws and statutes in a rigid, dogmatic way, whereas those who understand the limitations of language and expression allow that the are many instances where the intention is not explicit, where there may be ambiguities. This is where interpretation becomes vital to any sound judgement, where a process of informed argument will lead to an ironing out of the creases.)

[Up-into-the-air]

CASA and problems? Misfeasance?
YES - Deal with the problems and get a fair deal for all aviation.
Remember:

The mess CASA caused with the fuel "crisis";
The CASA/Mobil cover-up for the 2 years preceding the ultimate grounding of some 7,000 G.A. [General Aviation – Avgas aircraft];
CASA’s prevention of the ACCC enquiry into the AvGas Contamination.
The initial sacking of M. Toller in 2003 transformed to a resignation to avoid those awkward questions and the “Golden Handshake”;
The replies to urgent queries from Industry that often take years to receive;
The refusals by McCormick to personally see pilots or operators;
A bully doesn’t like confrontation by others and will therefore be selective in who he/ she sees.
The blunt refusal by McCormick to answer serious matters in the Senate;
The refusal by McCormick to answer Senator's questions;
The selective grounding of Tiger Airlines for alleged risk, whilst the National Icon had aircraft "dropping" from the sky;

The SDR [serious defect reports] notifications that are just ignored, yet affect over 200 aircraft in just one case;
The refusal to generally support pilots, yet some are favoured?;
The refusal to support operators unless there are links to CASA;
Bullying and harassment of staff across Australia;
The CASA HR [Human Resources] complicit in protecting bullies in the workplace, by their selection process more or less encouraging the bully image;
The "Industry Complaints Commissioner" who refuses to answer questions independently;
The "Industry Complaints Commissioner" who refuses to answer questions over a large range of issues;
The removal of a former Industry Complaints Commissioner who dared to be independent;
The interference by CASA in the100% independent operations of the Commonwealth ombudsman;
CASA just wave the safety banner, in order to justify decisions or direction to parliament or the Senate committees;
The use of "legal force" in pursuing people for infringement enforcement of misdemeanors, when these could be dealt with on an amicable basis;
As with all government instrumentalities the CASA is to act as THE Model Litigant;
Being the model litigant, does not imply withholding pertinent evidence, perjury fabrication of facts after the alleged event, or continuing prosecution until the victim is physically & financially broken and the business extinct. This is akin to rendition;
The CASA consistently demonstrate that they misuse the tools [Regulations, legal resources, Exemptions etc] available to them;
The CASA use of a pilot's need for instant decision-making in any connived/ altered/ corrupt or contempt of Court hindsight, to prosecute CASA's cause in an adversarial manner.
The CASA conivance to make the cost of going to the AAT expensive and in most cases, unbearable;
The AAT is designed to be inexpensive, but legal fees, the loss of income and business because of the deliberate drawing out of events spells the demise of most adversaries.
The FOI's who have incorrect "views" or say “I believe”, thereby avoiding perjury or robust queries;
The "Rules" in Australia - Instead, we have "Opinions"/ interpretations, depending on the FOI of the day;
The CASA supervises deliberately complex regulations;
Regulations are simply added to instead of there being a proper revision
Regulations are open to multiple interpretations, even within CASA.
No pilot or operators can guess at the desired outcome.
Despite parliamentary advice to the contrary, CASA instead of being a Safety regulator knowingly bases many of its directions and orders on a [Commercial] basis and outcome;
The manufacturing of "evidence", to support CASA/ FOI allegations;
CASA Cost Recovery???
Cost recovery has always existed in the form of the Fuel Excise.
The inordinate growth of CASA with all of its reincarnations;
The hidden impost of Consultant services;
The CASA employees earning more as consultants and who often dismissed from their former employment for unsuitability, are now in positions of “ expert” authority;
The selective use and blindness to any evidence that doesn't support the CASA to a pre determined outcome.
The investigators protecting CASA, rather than looking at investigations objectively from all sides.
The 23 years and around $200 mill to re-write the Regulations;
Incomplete regulation re-write - Judge Staunton requirement after SeaView disaster;
The continued improper use of CASR 206 by CASA - [2011 - Caper v CASA]; and many others before; [Toller 2001 – 206 is “... a bad law”]

The CASA does not provide timely, accurate and useful responses to enquiries;
The CASA does not meet the published standards of service memorandum [7-day reply time frame];
The CASA improper or un-timely promulgation of AD's;
The CASA mis-use of Exemptions to Regulations;
STRICT LIABILITY–only applies to the ENEMY sorry “Clients”

CASA is the house of double standards and inconsistency.

Any more??, please PM me and I will attach in this post, so that all are together.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See also: http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/470112-support-john-quadrio.html (http://www.pprune.org/posthistory.php?p=6828200)

[flying-spike]

I see you are pretty bitter and you may have reason to be and sure CASA aren't perfect but have your raised your issues in somewhere more official than this collective bitch-fest? I'm thinking REPCON or the like or even direct to ICC. You sound like you have plenty of ammunition, why not shoot it in the right direction. Otherwise you and all the others on this thread are wasting your time and energy. I may be a bit naive but isn't that why those channels are in place. Even go to your local member of parliament if required. Otherwise you can sling as much unsupported **** as you like and sign as many petitions as you like but it will all count for naught.

[Kharon]

Finally, you got one right, go to the top of the class.

I may be a bit naive but isn't that why those channels are in place. Even go to your local member of parliament if required.

Wow, a letter to the local member, will it really and truely sort things out spikey, really ?. Oh how wonderful (sigh). http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gif

[Kharon]

For those as like them.



Period from 0730 AEDT 29/11/11. to 0730 AEDT 30/11/11.



Pprune 'Poll" 79% supported. A total of 1107 reads.



Petition @ GoPet site.

Reads 539; Votes 122, Votes to reads averaged 24:1 (+/-).



Interesting. the petition reads approximately 50% of Prune. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

Anyway, for what they're worth, that concludes day one of a 21 day event.

Anyone 'good' at nutting this stuff out ?. I'd be very interested in some knowlegeable comment and 'translation.

[gobbledock]

Oh dear, so many reasons for an inquiry, so little time to list everything and so much work required to educate the masses. With that in mind I have listed a couple of reasons why action is necessary:

Death - Lives have been lost, both physically, and materially ad it would seem not a night’s sleep is lost by those accountable and entrusted with upholding safety within Australian aviation. Human lives and people's dignity and reputation should not be allowed to be destroyed for no better reason than some vermin not having the strength and character to admit to being wrong or making a mistake.
Safety - ‘Leading the safety crusade by example'. CASA actions merely destroy any desire or will within industry to follow their example, uphold honesty and integrity or even report an issue where relevant. When you have a regulator hell bent on bullying the industry and driving a pineapple through the industry's a#s for personal retaliatory reasons this is the system you end up with.
Scrap it - Metaphorically speaking the entire regulatory structure needs a tin of Avgas and a match set too it and we need to start again, the rot is too well entrenched, the cancer cannot be cured.
Folly - CASA tends to only react when the Minister gets a sniff of regulatory mischief. CASA often dig into the recycle bin, pull a few old ideas or discussion papers out from a few years ago, dust them off, put the word out on the street, employee a few consultant mates or keep a few of the crusty old consultant/slash former mates employed a little longer by throwing a recycled thought around! Any working group is likely and a couple of trips to Montreal or the USA are definitely on the cards, especially for all the pensioners running the joint. The taxpayer kitty is deep and the snouts are firmly embedded in the trough.
Intimidation - If you embarrass some of the CASA egos, they vengefully go after you. Any time you make a complaint or lodge an appeal that is based on or includes remarks pertaining to individuals that work for CASA they go after you. It is purely personal and 'safety' is the guise/cover they use, but ego is the issue. CASA despise a fair playing field, and even if they accepted your challenge you would lose either way, you may win the legitimate challenge but you would be punished by sore losers with no accountability and an endless bucket of money to fight you into bankruptcy.
Taxpayer waste - Have we forgotten the now infamously rumoured ASOP team that blew taxpayer funds on something like 34 projects and $5 million (of which not one project was actually finished)? More projects, more vision statements, more glossy words and more empty statements, more funds for the regulatory reform program which is still ongoing after 23 years.
Hollow statements and spin - What about the same rhetoric rolled out every so often, as has been done to death previously by around 6 former Director's/Ministers etc. When you don't hold people 'accountable' for their actions (or lack of action) that is when you get the same old statements dragged out of the closet every so often, re-dressed in a nice new lining and put out to the short-memory of the community, as something 'productive'? The rhetoric, bureaucratic dribble and verbal wankery that the Skull disseminates monthly are a further testament to wasting taxpayer funds. Senior management are a joke. There are some credible and genuine inspectors within the ranks, but the narcissistic manner in which senior management operate and surround themselves with fellow bullies is reflected down the line. The mighty broom needs to be wielded, starting at the top of the daisy chain and getting rid of Mr Angry, the Deputy 'has-been pilot' and his offsider the Voodoo witchdoctor. Next comes the field office managers and assorted project, policy and other BS management positions, then inspector team leaders, we all know the ones, the bullies who have a swag of internal and industry complaints against them, but of course nothing is ever done.
Cloud cuckoo land - What about the continual raising of unsafe practices in forums other than CASA's own is proving to be a huge concern is it not? Why is the regulator continually being indicted for not having a grip on the industry, not knowing about these problems, not addressing these issues, not acting predictively but rather acting reactively time and time again? Surely there is more than enough evidence being produced to paint a picture of an absolutely inadequately run safety authority?
Safety last - In line with the current direction the senate hearing has taken and the massive amount of evidence being produced, the damning record of safety decline within the overall Australian aviation industry it is time for a royal commission to be launched? Call up the regulator and its senior management past and present, call up the airline executive management, the safety managers, the Minister, line them up one after the other to explain their way out of these issues. If anybody can give the Australian traveling public and the tens of thousands of aviation workers the answers they deserve it is Senator Xenophon.
No clarity - CASA will speak of a regulation and say 'the intent' of the reg. In other words they won't be specific with what is required of you to meet the reg, and when you implement a process based on your understanding of the reg which absolutely is not clear in the first place, they can still ping you by saying you are wrong because 'that is not the intent of the reg' according to them. It is merely word obfuscating bull**** designed to cover the ass of the big player and burn the little people to the ground in an unwinnable situation.
Snouts in the trough – The regulatory reform program, 23 years and around 200 million dollars, YOU do the maths, what a joke. Also all international trips undertaken by a CASA officer are business/first class, accommodation is up the top of the star rating scale and each person travelling overseas gets a handsome 'daily away allowance' commensurate with their level of pay. And don’t forget, the executives get a fat salary and bonuses! Bonuses for what? Based on what? Incompetence! So why won't the senate act immediately to halt business/first class travel internationally to save taxpayer funds? Maybe the Minister could set an example himself? Why aren’t all public servants flying on the 'cheapest fare of the day' policy when they are required to travel instead of choosing their preferred carrier?
Failed projects - Maybe Xenophon could call for a copy of every ministerial report or any project/progress report submitted to the Ministers office or the Senate since 1988 in relation to the reg reform program so he can again dissect it and then get CASA to 'please explain' ? Bumbling ninnies in management are capable of reaching a 'goal' or 'target', ever! Then again they certainly expect industry to have goals, targets, milestones blah blah blah. The longer it takes for them to reform anything means the longer that management get to keep their snouts in the trough, draw tasty exec salaries of between 250k and 380k, yearly bonuses, business class international travel, 5 star accommodation and other well-padded treats. Somebody needs to bust open the beehive and scrape out all their honey. The best way to pull these bloated bureaucrats into line is chop off their bonuses and perks, slice back their remuneration packages, implement a specific and measurable timeline for projects, reform etc. and hold them accountable implicitly because the reality is that there currently is no motivation, need, requirement or care in the world for how they manage and oversight Australian aviation because nobody and I mean nobody has any control over the beast, especially the Minister For Mascot. Individual employees at Fort Fumble are fully protected from external legal action no matter what they do. Why do you think they are so arrogant and cock sure of their actions even when those actions cross the boundaries of what is morally correct, ethical and legal? It's a win win situation for CASA employee's and the taxpayer will always pick up the tab for any litigation levelled against employee's, an endless supply of YOUR money being used. Again, it comes down to CASA NOT having any accountability, a simple fact.
Mafia like actions - That is always going to foster an environment where certain individuals do/act/say whatever they please because they are protected from any recourse. Albanese is a nupty who only knows how to keep his snout buried in the trough, so he would be clueless as to what is going on in aviation around him. CASA do as they please, wield unlimited power and certainly the individuals who have been there for decades have outlived many government ministers and know how the system works, very dangerous. I've been around long enough to have seen these very same 'individuals' pull the wool over the eyes of the likes of Smith, Anderson, Byron, Skull and Albanese.
Clean swept carpet - Government and the Regulator are intertwined and both feed of each other in the same truth covering fashion. CASA is the offspring of the government which is its host. The only way to crack open this nut is to use an independent resource that cannot and will not be swayed, manipulated or corrupted in any way fathomable. Under the current system asking the government to intervene is like asking a murderer to investigate his own murder, the outcome is inevitable, predictable and known before the onset of the investigation begins. Perhaps the question could be asked why QF has reached the point it is currently at while supposedly under the watchful eye of a robust Regulator (with a capital 'R')? CASA employees now working within the QF group, another good question? Why doesn't the Senator perhaps ask for a microscopic analysis of every audit, special audit, investigation, surveillance activity undertaken, and approval given over the past 7 years for starters, to ensure that due process has always taken place? Not that anything is being insinuated here, it would be done within the context of Senator Xenophon wishing to assure himself that world’s best practice from the Regulator has always been adopted? After all a robust Regulator underpins the basis of safety within Australian skies does it not?
CASA Board - Maybe the Board could even outline their role as to what they actually do that contributes to an enhanced safe Australian skies? Perhaps evidence can be submitted to prove that all CASA inspectors (the overarching word being inspectors) have all undergone safety management systems training that is equal to or exceeds the requirement of operators? Perhaps CASA can table all internal training records, processes, procedures and training programs undertaken internally over the past 5 years, not just the last 6 months? The Senator needs to be sure that the current regulatory system meets or exceeds world’s best practice methods doesn't he? The good Senator should ask for a cent by cent analysis on what and how much CASA has spent on projects and consultants and provide evidence of what was undertaken, if it was completed, what the outcomes were and where deficiencies were found after spending wads of money, how were those deficiencies corrected, by what means? What about a forensic analysis of every trip internationally to conventions, workshops, and seminars, how much was spent and what systems were introduced into CASA as a result of such trips abroad? What about staff remuneration- why are bonuses paid to people who work as regulators? Is CASA an independent regulator or a business venture? How much are these bonuses, who receives them and based on what criteria? Simple questions. And what about taking a look at the books to analyse who has worked in any capacity as a consultant for CASA that has also worked for them on a salary at some stage? Just to ensure that no ex-employee has gained financially by either fully owning, partly owning or working for a consultancy hired by CASA after the person has been a salaried officer a year or so earlier, just to be on the safe side really and again to ensure that all checks and balances are followed in line with correct governance processes?
110% useless - The inability to either maintain, oversight or implement a workable aviation rule set. The fact that they are yet to finish rewriting the regs after 23 years of trying proves that they simply cannot do it. Somebody needs to be able to do it, and these nupty's can't, so it is time to introduce a regulatory body that can do it.
Bullying of industry - Mistreatment of individual people and oragnisations. The allegations of malfeasance and palpable treatment of innocent individuals is beyond reproach.As has been mentioned earlier, some minor broom work has taken place over the years but the systemic problems remain, and have done so for decades.
Nepotism and inconsistencies - Mates rates, jobs for the boys and consultants consultants consultants.
Incompetence - Complete lack of strategy or direction due to the inabilty of sheltered workshop protected has-been executives who are out of their league and only capable of hiding under the governments skirt. Crawl out from under your rocks you faceless men and fight like a man.
Waste of taxpayer money - How is it that the executives earn bonuses? This is a non profit regulator, how can a bonus be paid to executives? Not to mention Chairmans Lounge memberships and business class travel. Is this not breaking the golden rule of 'the line in the sand' between regulator and industry? How can you provide unbiased oversight when receiving perks from an operator?
Out of touch - Many of the executives need to collect their pensions and head off to retirement villa's. They have spent decades out of touch with reality and industry, they have no idea what the real aviation world is about, all they understand is how to locate the next feed trough and bury their snouts into it. Management should serve a 3 year term similar to a political term, except at the end of 3 years it is a gaurenteed replacement. Some of these CASA indviduals have spent almost an entrie working life there, how the hell would or could they be able to provide an effective service when they havent ever stepped foot into the real world. It is time to replace them with current/fresh industry capable people.
Smoke and mirrors - The continual smoke and mirror carnival needs to be gutted. Shuffling of money, resources, projects from one location to another to keep ahead of the government's eye (if they are watching) has been going on for decades. Wasteage of money on incompleted projects either improperly managed, never finsihed or 'shelved' is atrocious.
NO ACCOUNTABILITY - A lack of a fair or just appeal system for those who are prosecuted, often unjustly. If CASA are found to be unjust or unfair in their actions they receive a get out of jail free card. Nobody gets punished, nobody wears accountability, nobody is 'asked to explain'. Then you have an ethics commitee made up from internal senior executives. This is possibly one of the most unethical processes I have ever heard of. It is as workable as having a team of oil executives investigating price fixing !!They have the absolute freedom and permision to pursue an operator or individual at any expense without any justification or recourse. The use of taxpayer funds without reasonable use is a disgrace.
More inconsistencies - application or understanding of rules and regulations - Why does one field office have a different 'take' or understanding of a rule, reg or process, compared to another office? How can this be? Again, systemic issues that remain unmitigated.
INTENT. What a load of sh#t. Lawyer a#sholes allowed to write something in a manner so that it can be used either for or against you, at their discretion. Absolut crap. INTENT NEEDS TO BE ROMOVED, as it is abused habitually. E.G If you were speeding and got caught going over the set speed limit it is not 'intent', the speed limit is not oepn to twisted interpretation. Either you WERE speeding or you WEREN'T.
Final thought - How about the senate internally probe the activities of some former Assistant Director types and HR Executives to see what really goes on at Fort Fumble?? And how much value can be added to aviation safety by having an executive management group which are made up from people who haven't flown comercially for up to 15 years, are known industry bullies, have risen through the ranks and are just former legal interns and then you have stategy and direction a board that are not aviation, industry or safety technically minded people but they are mostly long term government spin doctors! As an example look at some of the issues severely affecting Air Services, what clown hires a former Bank Manager Executive to run a complex component of aviation service? A complete failure, complete disconnect, complete farce and politically dismal decision.
PUT AVIATION BACK INTO THE HANDS OF AVIATORS

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

So far I gather, 'letters to the local member' seems to have fallen on 'deaf ears'...

However consider the following -

Re the regs being re-written -

Why is it that every 'breach' of the 'regs' has to be a criminal offence and the penalty = x penalty units??

How you rephrase that for your petition is up to your good judgement I guess, but sooner or later, under these regs, EVERY PILOT IN AUS will sooner or later, be a 'criminal'......

I mean, who can fly for a living and NOT commit an 'offence' at some point in time...??

Additionally, I fully agree with AOPA's stance that ALL REGS should be worded 'simply' and in such a manner that they are fully understood by those they are supposed to apply to... = US!!

I voted 'YES'.
Thankyou.
Cheers:ok:

[Pomypilot]

YES YES YES!!!!
Does it count three times?:D

[gobbledock]

Spikey -
I see you are pretty bitter and you may have reason to be and sure CASA aren't perfect but have your raised your issues in somewhere more official than this collective bitch-fest? This bitch fest is a last resort for many who get crushed by Goliath. Somewhere more offical you say - Can't get more official than local members, parliamentary avenues and internal complaint mechanisms. NOBODY has the balls to go up against the Minister of the day so us little people get trampled into dust.

I'm thinking REPCON or the like or even direct to ICC. You sound like you have plenty of ammunition, why not shoot it in the right direction.
I didnt know that REPCON accept reports of bullying, incompetence on behalf of the regulator or malfeasance? S#it, what planet have I been living on!

Otherwise you and all the others on this thread are wasting your time and energy. Maybe so, but hey, it's my time to waste and I shall waste however I see fit.

I may be a bit naive but isn't that why those channels are in place. Ha ha, you are a funny geezer Spikey. Are you taking the piss out of me:= . If you are naieve then I forgive you for misunderstanding my angst. If you are serious then you obviously have not ever been placed in that most painful of all situatiaons, where you have the wrath of CASA come down on you for nothing short of 'personal reasons'.

Even go to your local member of parliament if required. Otherwise you can sling as much unsupported **** as you like and sign as many petitions as you like but it will all count for naught. Local member - been there tried that. They have no chance up against the Minister, a bureaucracy and the Government of the day. gimme a break. Also, your definition of 'unsupported ****' is interesting. How can you assume that evidence has not already been presented? Unequivocal evidence has been produced at murder trials yet the murderer has still walked free. It means jack **** when the system is corrupted.

Jaba - Good post actually. I am not as forgiving or calm headed as you my wise friend. But yes, the old days if you want to use that term were a lot more effective. Inspectors did give you a fair go, often they were hard, but fair. Unlike today's bullies who are taught bully boy tactics by spinelss gutless faceless executives.

[Pomypilot]

Jabawocky, Great Post :ok:


We need to get to the point where a CASA rep is not feared, if they wander into a hangar or onto the apron, people feel happy to see them and great them in the hope they may actually share something good. It may be we share something that educates them, or alerts them to something that needs attention. Now wouldn't that be different?



We don't, we scurry like cockroaches under a bread bin! CASA has no friends in this industry. Completely unhelpful and I'm completely suspicious of there alternative agenda. However, money talks and you have to hand over a lot of it to get anywhere with this motley crew nowadays. The industry is up the ****.

[Frank Arouet]

There are two types of people in the aviation industry today;

1) Those criminals who have been caught.

2) Those criminals who are yet to be caught. (take note spike).

Corporate psychopaths and habitual, perfidious, thieving, bureaucrats, are exempted from the above of course.

[sru]

YES from me also !!!

[Kharon]

First class post, one more edit and it'll be a milestone. Good work. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Wonder where CASAWEARY is ?, I'd bet Shim is smiling. :D

Be a bit careful though, this must withstand opposition scrutiny, and they will 'scute' exceeding hard.

I believe the facts, the money and the industry will tell the truth of it; court and AAT evidence will support. For example, I have just finished reading J. (Jack) Langmead's summary of the Avtex case last year. Seriously, even to a layman, it is truly a horror story of deceit, corruption and pony pooh. A good (very good) friend (35 years) is now on the dole because of this pitiful sham. (Will not play here, at all). Cheer up mate, everything is not totally lost. Who knows, the "Skull" may yet see the sense in the Senators logic.

JQ is a good, easily 'explained' case study. But, once it becomes complex, eyes glaze over and "the" safety 'Watchdog' knows this. They are`expert at building haystacks under which, needles may be hidden.

Well, lets see what transpires from this.

It's time; now, not later, but now.

Selah.

[Terminalfrost]

I prefer CASA now to CASA 4 years ago. Better the devil you know.

[Terminalfrost]

Mind you, still a way to go!

[aroa]

Flying? spike.
Go to the thread re Aviation Petition in Reporting Points and read what people have to say there.

Be wised up... not just a wisea$s... and learn something.

Listed there are the dreadful realities that we are faced with.

We've put up with all this sh*t for long enough.... its time for a bit of democracy NOT rampant bureaucracy fcuking peoples lives.

An aviation regulatory environment, by aviators, for aviators...for the continued safe well-being of the aviation industry.

Thats not too difficult is it.? We ned it NOW and we want it NOW.

No ifs, buts or poxy "safety" excuses.

[Andy_RR]

Petitioning is what you do when you beg a monarch to do something for you.

None of those clowns in Canberra hold any claim to power over us - they are our servants and as such should be told what to do.

[tail wheel]

The Petition thread is now here: http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/470478-proposed-senate-aviation-regulatory-petition.html

[tipsy.skipsy]

if the petition is successful .... and after the mob steps down ... the ones replacing them might be the same if the process is not transparent !!!! is the process to elect the CASA management transparent ?? :ugh: :ugh:

[Kharon]

Thats all the posts refreshed, no excuses you lot get weaving. :D http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Up-into-the-air]

Hi Spike,

Have been there: Had questions asked of local pollie, senators, letters to McCormick, letters to FOI's, letters to ICC, refererred to Ombudsman [directed back to ICC], phone calls.

Just obstufication by all involved. Even to McCormick refusing a personal meeting.

Next step is to expose the lot.

Problem is Spike - Lots of people have the same problem.

I only got involved in the industry 19 years ago and my first brush with CASA was my temerity in questioning the questions in a CPL exam, in which, when after numerous phone calls, found the question writer.

The question writer, when pushed, about whether (c) or (d) was correct. I had said (c) and the question writer said (d).
When pushed as to why, said "That's simple, I wrote the question and (d) is the correct answer.

Perhaps this says it all

Why should any matter be discussed, when CASA always has and always has had the power to justify the answer. The situation of "Strict Liability" makes the situation worse.

Hopefully some of the really bad cases, where peoples lives have been destroyed can be supported by us, so at least the culture can change and the system become transparent.

The proper inquiry into CASA is long overdue.

Have a look at NSW, with the ICAC inquiry and the sacking of a Departmental head already - Warrick Watkins. Proven corruption and misfeasance.

The point is, these people are not above the law.

[aroa]

Since nothing has changed with the misfeasance and immoral behaviour style over the last couple of decades...I'll go for the DCA we once knew.!

The devil I know ... and the one JQ knows... and the one many others know, is here and now with all its malicious and evil intent.:eek:

AndyRR... they may not 'lay' any claim to power over us.. but they sure as hell demonstrate that they have a "power", and use the regs to prove it.... and give you a good flogging in the process.!

The current system has to go. :ok:

[Stan van de Wiel]

Scrap it - Metaphorically speaking the entire regulatory structure needs a tin of Avgas and a match set too it and we need to start again, the rot is too well entrenched, the cancer cannot be cured.

As much as I would like to strike the match, not all the :mad: are still in the organisation. Also remove the constraints from the top and there are bound to be professionals within (?) - but I agree the only cure is to start all over. The Authority has been systemically corrupt for several decades but because of the eager use of "reprisal" they have succeeded in keeping the G.A. Industry just short of strangulation!

Some have suggested a major accident would get an enquiry, at least QF have been having a good try at it, but why does it need that when the problems have been identified time and time again. For "safety" do we read "job security" for bureaucrats and parliamentarians? It certainly has little to do with aviation.

[Worrals in the wilds]

For "safety" do we read "job security" for bureaucrats and parliamentarians? It certainly has little to do with aviation. In governmentland, Safety = Paperwork, which is created by said bureaucrats and presented to parliamentarians. Matrices, pie charts and irrelevant statistics are highly desirable attributes. Practical, workable information based on real time experience is not. :sad:

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

Humphrey: Notwithstanding the fact that your proposal could conceivably encompass certain concomitant benefits of a marginal and peripheral relevance, there is a countervailing consideration of infinitely superior magnitude involving your personal complicity and corroborative malfeasance, with a consequence that the taint and stigma of your former associations and diversions could irredeemably and irretrievably invalidate your position and culminate in public revelations and recriminations of a profoundly embarrassing and ultimately indefensible character.
Hacker: Perhaps I can have a précis of that?

[Kharon]

I have closed the 'informal' email poll, there is now enough informal information to provide a useful, interesting statistic. The Pprune poll is now the only way to record an informal vote.

I always wondered why Unions held secret ballots, clever folks those.

Gives you a whole new perspective on just how brave the boys who wrote Magna Carta and American Declaration of Independence were. Not that I would compare this mini bun fight to those events, not for a minute, but it's food for thought.

[flying-spike]

There is no disrespect intended and for the record I support the cause you are pursuing. I am not attempting to be a wise arse.My suggestions come from 37 years in the industry and yes I have been unfairly dealt with by CASA and its predecessors so kindly don't make your argument personal and abusive. I am merely suggesting that every other avenue be pursued before placing your signature on the petition.

Ponder this: finally somebody does look at the mass of signatures on the petition and decide to investigate the allegations of unfair treatment etc. If the petition is the first and only place that person sees your name and signature you will be perceived as just another person getting on the band wagon with no gripe to investigate. It will detract from the arguments of our colleagues who have a legitimate and documented reason for complaint.

Be passionate, rally to the flag but back it up with substance.

[Kharon]

There is a logic in FS argument. I, for one would like to hear a little more.

Ponder this: finally somebody does look at the mass of signatures on the petition and decide to investigate the allegations of unfair treatment etc. If the petition is the first and only place that person sees your name and signature you will be perceived as just another person getting on the band wagon with no gripe to investigate. It will detract from the arguments of our colleagues who have a legitimate and documented reason for complaint.

Remember; the purpose of this whole exercise is to bring attention which will ensure fair play to the plight not only of JQ, but the many others like him. There is quite a list now, and it really is an absolute disgrace to this industry; however. Before I go to the fairly extreme length of publishing 'de identified' anecdotal 'horror stories' for industry peer consideration lets hear other arguments.

The industry must have a solution and a reconciliation; we do need to able to work with the regulator. BUT we need to have some professional, operational respect and a belief that probity, reasonableness and ethical values are freely available to all.

Floors yours Spike. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[flying-spike]

Thanks Kharon, I've said all I thought I should say. It is up to others to take the advice or ignore it. I would hope that others that feel they have been wronged formalize their complaints.
A petition itself will, I fear, not sway any fair adjudicator or investigator to act. If the "undersigned" have a case history to support their signature and their complaints have not been followed, then that is damnable in itself and difficult for any regulator to hide behind ignorance.

[Kharon]

Fair call. Spike makes a fair point and, it should be valid. I would normally, over a beer, agree that it was a fair argument, well reasoned.

The current situation, I believe is well and truly beyond the norm; there are crook operators, there are pilots who are a worry and, there is normally a bit of 'griping' about the 'local' regulator, anywhere in the world you care to go. Such is normal situation that 'professional' regulators and industry enjoy. Bit like the old ATC/ATS Christmas drinks; a great PR exercise, the ATC boys pay out the pilots, pilots return the favour and by New Year, the barking and spitting of the last 12 months is gone, dead and (mostly) forgotten; such is life.

The plan is to generate enough support through the petition to be able to give interested, sympathetic politicians enough horse power to call for an enquiry into the current administration through the tabled reports. There exists 10 such reports; which have publicly available (real) evidence to support them; these reports are the 'evidence' we wish to have to have examined, impartially and in detail by the Senate.

The common or garden pollie has absolutely no juice against this department, they'd be better off trying to stuff a wet noodle up a tigers jaxie. So. it just won't do,

Sadly without unlimited time and serious money, there is nowhere tangible or affordable to go, other than the Senate Estimates.

Without significant' public support, there is no 'fear factor' to drive the pollies. The fear should be clearly defined. The only safety CASA management are interested in,sadly, is their own. This is where the CASA need to be exposed. If 'we' can show the Senate that the current system is unsound and there is a safety case to answer, the Senate is then made publicly aware of it, on the record. The blood will then be on their hands, not ours.

The next time a twelve month prior warning that an accident was inevitable is ignored will hopefully be the last, ever.

Handing over - Spike ?, any body sensible??.

No confidence in CASA Petition (http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/no-confidence-in-casa.html)

[Jabawocky]

Agreed............and for back up refer my previous posts on what the industry needs, what casa needs........Its simple. Problem is it is hard work to change.

The end game is simple. The road to recovery is just hard work.

[Creampuff]

THE ALP is now under mounting national pressure to act on a petition calling for a full audit of Peter Slipper's travel expenses.

The petition remains trapped in a committee headed by a Labor Party MP.

The Fisher MP on Thursday boosted Prime Minister Julia Gillard's control of Parliament when he quit the LNP and took the lucrative position of Speaker.

John Murphy, the Labor Member for Reid, is chairman of the House of Representative petitions committee which is charged with considering petitions from voters and then bringing them to parliament with recommendations.

He was one of nine Labor members who, on Thursday, rejected invitations by the Liberal Party's Christopher Pyne to stand against Mr Slipper for Speaker.

Since Tuesday, Mr Murphy has failed to answer questions from the Sunshine Coast Daily about the status of the petition which seeks a detailed examination by the Department of Finance of all Mr Slipper's expense claims for the past decade.

The petition, signed by almost 2700 locals, asks that any audit "be overseen by the National Audit Office to assist with recommendations that may produce expenditure guidelines in line with community expectations".

If also requests "that expenditure provisions be tightened to require all Members to give detail of the parliamentary or electoral business that led to an expense being incurred''.

A spokesman for Mr Murphy on Tuesday said the petitions' committee would consider questions from the Daily the following day.

On Wednesday and Thursday he said the committee had resolved to respond to the Daily in writing.

Yesterday the same spokesman, Mr Murphy's chief of staff Frans Timmerman said he did not know how long the response would take. He said it was "in the hands of bureaucrats" but didn't know which ones.

Urged to seek that advice from Mr Murphy who should know because he heads the committee, Mr Timmerman said his boss was on a school visit but didn't know how long he would be.

"I'll ask him if I see him,'' Mr Timmerman said.

On Thursday Michael Danby, Labor's Member for Melbourne Ports, in seconding his party's nomination of Mr Slipper as Speaker chose to criticise this newspaper's attempts to hold the Member for Fisher to account.

"I have observed a man who has been attacked by his local media but who in this parliament has behaved extremely honourably and has discharged his duties well,'' Mr Danby said.

"Despite his reputation in the local newspapers-which have seemed to me to have political axes to grind-he has a great affinity with human rights."

But Coast pensioners are furious that Mr Slipper charged taxpayers' $57,000 for taxis, cars and limos which is considerably more than the annual $52,000 household income in his electorate.

Former Fisher Liberal Andrew Champion said on Friday that Mr Slipper had only ever done service to himself.

At some point in the New Year when Parliament resumes its rules will require that Mr Murphy and his committee to present the Sunshine Coast petition for determination.

Parliamentarians will then by their actions show if they consider it reasonable, as Mr Slipper has done, to bill taxpayers nearly $7000 for travel during 15 days when parliament is in recess or to run up a taxi fare of $310 for a night on the town.

Mr Danby clearly finds such behaviour acceptable.

Meanwhile The Australian newspaper today reported that the Australian Federal Police have widened an investigation into the use of travel expenses by Peter Slipper's office.

The Daily understands the investigation relates to the use of a fuel card by a staffer within Mr Slipper's office.

The AFP probe was first revealed in a story in the Daily in April this year.

At the time, Mr Slipper declined to comment on the police search except to issue a statement through his spokesman saying AFP officers had seized "certain documents".

Mr Slipper was on on a 43-day "study trip" in Europe with his wife Inge which cost taxpayers more than $25,000.

At the time, Mr Slipper's spokesman denied the office had been "raided" and said the MP's office had "cooperated fully" with the AFP officers. He said no computers were taken from the office, only documents.

The Australian today reported that Mr Slipper's travel and office expenses have totalled about $1.8 million since 2007, including regular $280 travel taxi trips between Brisbane airport and his home on the Coast.

In the first half of this year, he has spent almost $1100 a day on airfares, taxis, commonwealth cars and office supplies - double that of the nation's most frugal MP.

Mr Slipper's expense bill for between January 1 and June 30 this year is $194,297.98 - well down on the more than $700,000 he spent last year. However, his expenses normally go up in the second half of the year.

As the Daily has previously reported, Mr Slipper regularly racks up taxi bills of hundreds of dollars each time, with drivers reporting that he has them wait for him for lengthy periods.

Questions have been continually raised over why he continues to fly to Canberra via Sydney.

In the past, Mr Slipper has always justified his travel on the basis of 'parliamentary' and electorate business but refused to detail his trips to the Daily - or the public benefit of them.

Mr Slipper refused to return calls to the media yesterday.

He was personally invited by the Daily to write an open letter to the people of the Sunshine Coast detailing why he had backed Labor in taking on the Speaker's role, despite being elected by almost 40,000 LNP supporters.

His message bank was overflowing with unanswered calls.

The invitation to Mr Slipper remains open.Don’t tell me: a petition to the Senate, calling for an investigation into CASA, is ‘different’.

You should try to organise the petitioning Senator to wave the petition around while saying “Peace for our time!”

[Sarcs]

Kharon again....agreed, very well said!

Although I believe with a bit of coaching ( I believe it's called "lobbying") that Senators (like Senator X and Senator Fawcett) will take on the challenge of exposing the regulator for all its faults and failings.

In fact I believe Senator X can already smell a rat! He also has the destinct advantage of being independent and he loves a good cause (ala Mr Kessing)!

[Kharon]

There are some, who would use a very trite political situation in the House of Reps to say, in an oblique manner, petitions are a wasted, political game. They are when the Reps are trying to cook a Turkey for Xmas. However;

I say, that time spent meeting Senators, presenting logical, clear, easily provable argument, the right answers and the odd insider truth, to fair minded men, who don't appreciate being told to 'buzz off' by public servants is never, not ever wasted.

Every camel, no matter how 'robust' can only carry so much straw.

Friends, we have got. Support, or logical argument (disagreement if it pleases you) always welcome.

Sign here No confidence in CASA Petition (http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/no-confidence-in-casa.html)


Selah.

[T28D]

There are 2 points of view here, I am locked in agreement with Clinton, the system will rally to protect irself, there is too much to lose if those pesky citizens really get a start in questioning the public service.

On the other hand Karon and the pesky citizens have a legitimate list of anomalies they would like answers for and accountability for the past alleged misdemeanors of individuals they should hold in high regard.

My experience with petitions is not at all good, they tend to sit in minor committees get covered in obsfucation and ultimately dissapear into oblivion.

Much better to lobby like minded and robust Senators or Reps aspiring to the front bench, they can get a lot more done.

[gobbledock]

The problem is not as complex as some may think.
The fact is this - the system is sick, very very sick. Some of us here irrespective of how we articulate our concerns are simply saying this - "there is enough evidence, awareness, understanding and warnings currently sitting out there within Australian aviation to show that we are headed down a path towards a smoking hole".

Now for the truth serum, a practical and accurate lesson of where we are headed. I post this below not for shock value, exaggeration or for piss taking but rather to show the other side of the coin as to what is going to happen if powerful people in our country don't wake up from the laconic stupor and overflowing troughs they have their unconscionable snouts buried in ;

The bureaucracies and corporate grubs who have set the wheels in motion should hang their heads in shame. Perhaps some of these very individuals
should try investigating a crater in the ground that was formally a functioning aircraft with 100+ passengers onboard? Breathe in the aroma of kerosene and burnt flesh as you sift out pieces of aircraft and flesh that are no larger than
a tennis ball? Its an amazing experience and one you never forget, especially when showering 4 days later and you can still smell it in your hair and under your nails, no amount of antiseptic soap with its strong pungent aroma will immediately cover over the smell off death and destruction. Then maybe explain this to the families, friends and airline colleagues of the human beings that have perished. Nothing beats rare occasion that you have identifiable wreckage - a baby's torso, luggage including Xmas presents and family photos,
in the wreckage you even find a pilots cap still crisp and clean on the outside still but with mattered hair and scalp on the inside.
Shall I continue? No, I thought not.

So next time somebody accuses me of being a rude a#shole, an authority anti- crusader or any other capricious name then I challenge you to experience as I have done the aftermath of politics, greed and incompetence.
It may sound like a cliche but I actually have a moral compass, I see death on the horizon and cannot sleep easy until I have said my bit, made my peace and laid down in the bed I have made. Can others do the same?
I have fought the fine fight as far as it can go. My energy is low, my willpower is diminished, my spirit has been broken. I no longer can bare to be part of this industry, I can no longer carry the burden and fear of the pending accident that will change Australia and out aviation way of life forever.
I wish all of you, my friends and enemies the safest of futures and the best in life.

Gobbledock signing off.
In the words of the immortal Kharon - Selah



Tick tock.

[Kharon]

It's the smoking hole created by stealth that drives me nuts. If the regulator could be trusted not to criminally prosecute every 'lost paper clip' perhaps, the industry would open it's operations to allow a worthwhile safety audit, which may reveal an overlooked deficiency. Now that, would be worthwhile and welcome.



But when things are hidden, out of fear and an accident results from that, well, as Clinton rightly points out; they will circle the wagons and have paperwork enough to cover every single fat arse. This is the one I dread, where the real cause may never be known or lost to reason.



Richard: "And thus I clothe my naked villany
With odd old ends stol'n out of holy writ,
And seem a saint, when most I play the devil."

King Richard III.



Thanks for your great contributions, I know you'll keep an eye proceedings. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif Thought you'd appreciate :-



Leonato: I pray thee peace, I will be flesh and blood;
For there was never yet philosopher
That could endure the toothache patiently,
However they have writ the style of gods,
And made a push at chance and sufferance.



No confidence in CASA Petition (http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/no-confidence-in-casa.html)

[Worrals in the wilds]

The common or garden pollie has absolutely no juice against this department, they'd be better off trying to stuff a wet noodle up a tigers jaxie. The other problem is that the common or garden pollie has absolutely no aviation knowledge beyond the Qantas Club wine list and whatever the bureaucrats from CASA feed them. They receive hundreds of pleas for help from all parts of the community and anything that requires more than 10 seconds of explanation tends to get put in the compost file. :(

Of course once an incident happens, they all suddenly become instant experts and start gobbing off in the press trying to convince their electorate that they were well informed all along. Just ask the Qld government Ministers about Dams, these days they all know everything there is to know about operating manuals, fuse plug walls et al. Prior to Janurary? They're big holes with water in them, right? :ugh:

There's an old public service adage; your job is to keep the Minister off the front page. Nothing about safety, nothing about efficiency, nothing about getting the job done right...just don't let the bugger look bad and we all stay friends. If you guys can make the bugger look bad in the press, he just might start taking an interest. Or maybe not, maybe he won't care unless there's a big smoking hole. However, he's more likely to care if the press are talking about big smoking hole potential due to CASA's inability to act. How about TN/ACA etc? You have to use whatever tools come to hand.

[Jabawocky]

Have all the 184 of you who voted above actually signed the petition:=

If so :ok: the rest of you:mad:

[Kharon]

Another good point raised by an innocent man.


Much better to lobby like minded and robust Senators or Reps aspiring to the front bench, they can get a lot more done.

Thing is – JQ and others, individually are just that, one small whinging voice in the political wilderness, the sound of one hand clapping. Even the most dedicated, aviation aware pollie is hardly likely to break wind, let alone spend time and effort sorting out one CASA labelled ' serious safety issue ', because of one disgruntled "bad boy" whinge against a decided FOI, supported by 'Head' office.



The numbers need to be 'of consequence'. VOTE HERE. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

No confidence in CASA Petition (http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/no-confidence-in-casa.html)

[Kharon]

O4 FFS. Mate, this last and your previous posts suggests some pages stuck together. In this instance CASA are probably acting in a manner which suggests, without all the facts to hand, correct over sight when it come to your "pet operator".


Quote Ledsled -

Re. the AMSAR Dornier, as these SAR operators have all sorts of low level approvals, has it occurred to the critics that what they were doing may have been completely kosher, and that is the reason why no "action" has been forthcoming from CASA???
Just a thought.
Tootle pip!! I have a few small problems with some of the statements you make such as:-



These rogue companies argue that they are compliant; meanwhile behind the scenes they are intimidating employees, taking shortcuts with maintenance and making political power plays to keep the CASA right where they want them (i.e. lapdogs).


The above are not CASA problems and will not become their problem until there is a smoking hole. These remain 'internal' issues, for the AFAP and the Safety Committee to 'sort'. If enough of the boys and girls submit enough HAIRS (or whatever that company calls them), the company is obliged, by law, to examine and respond to safety issues presented. If they are ignored, then a short phone call to a CASA FOI, and supporting 'evidence' that the company is deliberately breaching the regs, or ignoring safety reports will clearly demonstrate your lap dog, just became a guard dog, with some bloody big teeth.

It's no wonder JMC won't take industry calls.

He consequently vented his spleen for 20 minutes about inexperienced checkies at his company conducting simulated EFATO (Engine Failure After Take-Off) in the aircraft right on rotating…. carrying out stick shaker climbs from 200ft agl (got to wonder about that one!)


You've got me wondering too, lets look at some "play" numbers; say stick shake set to Stall + 15 (90) KIAS). V1 say 100, VR say 103, V2 say 115 KIAS. It's legal in a lightly loaded (>5700 Kg) aircraft to conduct a V1 cut. (Please start another thread). It is bollicks to suggest a CAR 217 qualified pilot would be at zot feet, 25 knots below V2 below 200 feet. (Please start another thread).

The CASA have overseen the implementation of SMS and promoted the principles of a ‘Just Culture’ for the last 20 years. They have, however, been derelict in their duty to ensure these world’s best safety practices are adhered to by all sectors of the industry[

No, not a CASA task, it's up to the company Safety Management to make the system work, the issues acted on and action taken. If they don't do that, then and only then does CASA gets involved.


The CASA cannot, nor is it required to be all things to all men. It certainly is not "Mamma Bear", to wipe the arse of every snivelling junior pilot who crosses it's doorstep. To be fair, they do get asked to do this and, I have noted a level of patience and forbearance above the call of duty.



The big ticket item is methods used by individuals to manage industry problems such as this one. The FOI over sighting the outfit you're banging on about used mature "Judgement", operational "Reasonableness", and decided not to reach for the gun. Perhaps, you're potential 'smoking hole' was assessed as a bit of a squib.

No confidence in CASA Petition (http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/no-confidence-in-casa.html)

[Cactusjack]

SMS and Just Culture started making their appearance in Australian aviation around 2007. Under ICAO's framework for 'states' Australia, NZ, Canada are ahead of the game, the FAA is yet to implement either so I'm not sure where the '20 years statement' originated from but it is incorrect. The last 4 to 5 years predominately is a more accurate figure.

[Sarcs]

So Kharon are the petition numbers still building, how about an update old mate?:ok:

[Kharon]

How http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cool.gif , I was just about to do that;

The Pprune poll reflects the state of play very well, for the interested parties. Thanks Mods. :D http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

It is difficult to get an accurate fix on what the 'average' industry fellahin think. However:- Numbers Week 1.

Pprune data.
The thread has 6000 reads, but of these 2000 rightfully belonged to the merged thread. The 'unknowable' is how many of the 'reads' are multiple offenders, I for example have been checking the thread twice a day, so the number of reads is too 'fluffy' an element to be much use for drawing conclusions. Except only 200 odd readers bothered to use the poll, which is a shame.

Of these, as you see, 173 agreed with and/or signed. There were a handful of No votes which is to be expected, particularly if folk were honest and could not agree to the petition 'as writ', or who just thought it wrong. Double that amount of folk 'disagreed'.

Petition data.
Here again I have no expertise; I assume that a percentage of the 'views' are from folk who read petitions as an on line hobby, much as pilots read 'aviation' related topics elsewhere, so it's difficult to extract 'hard' data from that value. I believe there are 200 signatures on the petition, which isn't bad, considering. It does pretty much reflect the Pprune poll data though.

The "best" numbers are unofficial. I had almost double the existing signatures from people who would love to sign, but dare not within the first 3 days. This is the real number to my mind; of course, they are totally bloody useless in any practical sense, but it confirms one fact; this is one scared industry.

The problem is of course what does it all mean, the temptation to 'spin' the numbers into lies, damn lies or statistics is obvious (who said that?). When you think it through you could make just about any claim you wanted to. Not for me though, as it stands, I can't take a pitiful 200 signatures to a Senator and ask for an enquiry based on the petition, no matter how much 'they' would love to do it.

I can understand the fear, I can relate to philosophical and conscious disagreement, but I object, most strongly to apathy.

This industry has some serious problems. So it's more people signing the petition, or it's curtains I'm afraid.

No confidence in CASA Petition (http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/no-confidence-in-casa.html)



Just been talking to a bloke who knows what he is on about (for a change, yeah, yeah). The way he views it is; out of 6000 "reads" on this section of a very "limited" audience platform, the most "Unique" reads would be say about 1200 ( individual IP adressess). If this is the case, then 200 signatures and 73% support is a bloody good effort. Well done guys. :D

[my oleo is extended]

Perhaps unofficially CASA are listening?
In the past few months 2 field office managers have been sidelined and placed in 'projects', 1 HR manager forced to walk the green mile and now a team leader FOI had been moved sideways into 'projects'!
I have also heard that with each of the above mentioned 'moves' the troops were virtually partying in the hallways and celebrating as if it was early Xmas!

[Kharon]

Oleo -
I have also heard that with each of the above mentioned 'moves' the troops were virtually partying in the hallways and celebrating as if it was early Xmas!
Could be good, could be bad. Depends which group are celebrating, if it's the 'good uns', it's my shout.

If, it's the slime ball mob, then Sepuku is a valid solution. :D

[Kharon]

Spent several hours with a 'pro' market /research analyst type last evening. The guy and his company do serious computer based work on this type of thing, some of the things they can do, through their models is truly remarkable. Well, as a favour to an 'old mate' he had a look at the "numbers" for the petition, the Pprune poll and the informal data. Thanks Michael.

I learned a great deal, but mostly, to never, ever trust any form of 'poll' or survey data unless I have full access to all the numbers. What they can do is seriously mind blowing. Anyway, I digress.

I asked for as honest an appraisal as possible, given the data limitations. There was a bit of 'sorting out' to be done first, in short, the average 'daily' unique visitors (logged in) needed to be assessed. Of these, there needed to be a 'cull' of those who had specific interest topics and those that simply did not bother to read the thread. This was further complicated by the "merged' thread factor. This was a remarkable process, done through computer models, based against 'normal' market research demographics and research. Anyway, the figure we agreed for 'unique' readers, solely interested in the petition was between 1000 and 1200.

This 'translated' into 20% of the readers were prepared to sign a petition.

Considering (he says) the very small sample of industry, being those that actually read Pprune, further reduced by those who did not bother, or have not yet read the thread plus the 'unofficial' numbers that were not counted (I would not allow them included), in this guys opinion, we have a winner in a short space of time

The really 'big hitter' though, if we had simply gone for support of people hammered by the CASA would have been enormous, this from the "Birds" thread data (Paul Phelan), that one is a 'monster', according to Mike.

He suggests a 'proper' survey, supported by a press release would pretty much ensure that an enquiry of some sort would have to be mounted.

No confidence in CASA Petition (http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/no-confidence-in-casa.html)

I'll play - Over to you guys.

Selah.

[Sarcs]

Kharon I've found with dealing with legal/political circles, including Senate enquiry submissions, letters to MPs/Senators, e-mails to concerned partys etc..etc, the biggest hurdle is trying to make people understand the aviation terminology. I feel if you can draw on examples that the average punter can relate to, then you have won half the battle.

It is worth trolling through previous Senate estimates, Parliamentary enquirys etc, to see which individual MPs/Senators have an interest in aviation. Also which pollies have endeavoured to try to engage in an understanding of the industry and its associated problems.

Here's a few that come to mind: Senator Xenophon, Senator Fawcett (this bloke understands the regs better than CASA), Senator Heffernan (although not involved in Qantas Sale Act inquiry some of his submitted questions on notice for the Supp Estimates of RAT are very good, see here:http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/rat_ctte/estimates/sup_1112/infra/qon_index.pdf ).
Senator Johnson, Senator Abetz, Senator Cameron and Senator Sterle.

MPs are problematic at both a State and Federal level as they tend to only show an interest if there are votes to be gained (or lost). But I suppose the local constituents where there is a CASA victim (eg Warren Entsch for JQs case) and all the obvious ones (eg Shadow Minister Warren Truss).

It is also worth looking at previous enquiry submissions, as some of the submitters may take up the cause if approached (eg the Urquhart family).

Anyway if you need assistance with the process you can count me in!

cheers

Sarcs

[gupta]

I've signed the petition
Mind you I don't fly any more
But I am on record in a Senate Committee as calling CASA senior management of the time "less than helpful"

[grip-pipe]

Sorry to rain on the parade but Kharon and T28D call it correctly - petitions do not worry politicians one bit, they are just seen for what they are yet another petition, they are initially given the respectful 'tut tut ah! yes very important" they then vanish into the cavern of lost petitions. In my time there have petitions with in excess of 100,000 signatures on them that the politicians have carefully ignored.

We all in our hearts know that they only thing that will cause a proper inquiry into the state of aviation administration and regulation in this country is an aluminium shower or very large hole in the ground and with a politician or two on board when it happens. Then there will be a Royal Commission, conclusions drawn, recommendations made, heads will roll then promises to implement made and again nothing much done if anything.

When have you ever seen a politician do what they said they would do and do what the electors want them to do? They are generally an unaccountable self serving bunch of egotistical, elitist apraratchniks who are only interested in the gravy train rolling along they are on and keeping their piggy noses in the trough of public funds.

Nice way to vent steam but practically it is just a waste of time, it has been tried over and over and over again.

GA is effectively finished, the airlines have returned to a cosy duopoly and the asianisation of working conditions for those left just continues.

Nope only when the whole thing is a catastrophe will anybody wake up!

[Kharon]

Grip pipe makes a valid point, we have had 'countless' investigations, enquiries and even the odd Royal Commission and nothing has happened, except, the determination to cover the incumbent ministerial arse. I hoped Staunton would do the trick, I hoped Lockhart River would make a dent, but alas, nothing but a more manic grip on the 'word' of the law, more useless hoops to jump through and all this, at a hell of a cost.

Smoking holes – we got several; a culture of fear, we have one of those too; hidden or ignored balmy SOP, yup, thanks, we got plenty; audit baffling paperwork, oh sure, lots of that; sweeping grandiose statements in Safety System Manuals, oh, yes those too; and they're very nice. Cue here for the castle speech from the "Holy Grail" (Monty Python).

I could live with that (just) but, the way the 'law' is be used beggars the imagination. It would OK if we got a safety outcome from any of it, other than some poor sod stripped of a license. That is not an outcome, it's a statistic to prove how, whoever values these things can say "we are making safer", which is absolute Bollicks.

There are things which have been rammed into (and out of) operations manuals, being dragged out of a half arsed idea of operational safety and foisted on the industry, decisions being made on very weird interpretations of that same law. I wish they were my stories to tell, but, they ain't. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif. But it's bloody scary behind the scenes and that's not bull. Ah, the things I've seen and heard children.

One thing for sure, if we want a healthy industry and pilots with at least some GA experience, in the airlines or regional carriers, something has got to be done. Tout de suite. And the tooter the sweeter.

Steam Off.

[Kharon]

I am going to ask the Mod's to 'un-stick' this post tomorrow night. I believe it's job is done and done very well indeed. The numbers speak for themselves and will be a big part of the formal presentation and press release.

In broad terms, three things have emerged which demand attention. I have not gone to any great depth here, for the sake of brevity, however the main points:-

(1) This is a sick, scared industry locked into a an almost untenable relationship with a regulator for which there is a great deal of fear and an almost complete lack of respect from the industry and it's own people.

(2) The 'methodology' used to enforce the law, flawed interpretation of that law and the almost total absence of probity visible throughout CASA actions in the AAT demands that past and present actions against industry be examined, independently and in detail. Particularly if a license, rating or operating privilege of any description is going to be affected, then the case must be proven 'beyond' reasonable doubt. If, the "Criminal" code is to be used, then criminal charges must be laid and proven. The lazy, almost feckless use of the "not a fit and proper" clause to support and manipulate a CASA argument is just the tip of the iceberg.

(3) CASA produced positive, measurable, tangible safety improvement is notable only by it's complete absence. What is clearly apparent is the sub culture where industry will do, say and write almost anything just to get the CASA back into their own office, off the premises and hopefully have them sign off on whatever it was the operator wanted 6 months ago.

A serious and heartfelt thanks to everyone who participated in this exercise, it has been a great effort by all. Thanks to the Mod's, who have been helpful, reasonable and patient 'above and beyond', I know, my shout.

The 'Votes", email addresses and details will be harvested tomorrow night and securely stored They will remain unread in electronic form until such time as they go out as part of the release of the project. PM's and confidential emails will be deleted at the same time, big thank you to the 'employees' who were concerned enough to speak out. I hope there will be a time when you may speak freely and without fear.

That's it from me on this one.

Selah.

For Jabba and Gobbledock.

Macbeth, Act 2.3
Porter:
Here's a knocking indeed! If a man were porter of Hell Gate,
he should have old turning the key. Knock, knock, knock!
Who's there, i' th' name of Belzebub?.
Knock, knock! Who's there, in th' other devil's name?

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

One outcome of this forum will be a list of tactics CASA will use against the next target of bullying and harassment. They should then be able to fight back from a stronger position as a result of this info.

[gobbledock]

Good work Kharon, you are a champion. Most certainly CASA has proved to be a formidable foe with incredible adversarial strength. The reason they are so powerful? It has to do with their description as scribed at Revelation 12:9;"So down the great dragon was hurled (Director), the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan,who is misleading the entire inhabited earth (Australian aviation industry), he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels (executive management) were hurled down with him".

Hopefully, somewhere, somehow at some time the Iron Clad walls of Fort Fumble will be torn down and the vermin hiding amongst the cracks and dross will be exposed for all they are worth. One need not peer to far beneath the veneer to stumble across a large steaming mass of monkey poo. I sincerely pray that the smoking hole we all desperately fear and work so hard to avoid does not occur. But at present that would appear to be the only way the prehistoric sociopaths guarding the emperor's throne will be usurped.

[grip-pipe]

Only a complete root and branch reform of Aviation Regulation is ever going to work.

I am of the view and have stated this before on this Forum and elsewhere that CASA and the Board should be abolished, the curent Act be repealed and the rule set of the FAA adopted with minor changes only. All the current staff should be made redundant and or dismissed and replaced by a new organisation or Branch within a Government department and the terms and conditions of any furture employees terms of employment returned to within and comply with the standards required under the ambit of the Public Service Act and the oversight of the Public Service Commission and the Commonwealth Ombudsman.

The inspectorate, licensing and standards functions need to be seperated out and placed within a framework or under the control of a Government body such the Department of Transport so that the powers and inappropriate influce of one by the other is prevented and their roles provided for seperately in a clear and unambiguous manner by appropriate legal statute.

All the previous posts about this failed organisation and the failed attemtps at reform of Aviation regulation repeatedly show that the issue of the use (misuse) of regulatory powers by employees of the Commonwealth as manifest by past and present officers of this Authority is clearly by any measure or test the first, second and third problem with the authority for the past thirty years, thus we have the perversion of the rule of law by the authority and the corruption and incompetence that the Authority has come to represent.

The current regulator is unaccountable and unrepresentative of the industry it regulates or of the broader community it is required to serve and has degenerated into an ineffective and malicious organisation where personal ambition and outdated practice is the norm where opinion (or misguided and inappropriate legal opinion) holds sway and is held to be evidence and where scientific empirical data and rational decision making has ceased to hold sway or influence or guide practice or indeed even be generated.

The need for a body that regulates aviation activity by way of commonsense licensing and the setting of appropriate standards has been completely lost and this intent and requirement in the way the regulator performs that function should be clearly written into the Act in a way that cannot be re-intepreted by CASA or a manner which allows for opinion to replace factual data and empirical evidence.

The need for consultation and consensus on matters of standards, within an internationally binding framework has be be required of and written into any new Act and regulations or Parts. There are a number of key areas that must and have to be changed if any reform is to achieve any meaningful outcomes;

1) SAFETY must be defined in the Act or Regulations which provide the statutory powers and functions of the regulator.

2) The provision of criminal sanctions and penalties for non compliance must be curtailed and only provided for wilful, grievous and seriously negligent actions and those matters and the bringing of such an allegation or case must be constrained by the rule of law and brought back into the appropriate jurisdiction where only the CDPP is allowed to prosecute and where the public interest so requires that this happen.

3) The 'fit and proper person' provisions for licensing have to be removed from the regulations.

4) The new authority should be required by its legislation to properly consult with industry in a publicly accountable manner and account for such consultation in the preparation of and issueing of any directive or instruction before, during and after the issuance of any directive or instructin according to and only in accordance with the rules that provide its powers.

5) All third tier instruments and defacto regulatory instruments such as Civil Aviation Orders and Directives should be repealed excepting those adopted by reason of international agreement or those replicating and critical to airworthiness or airsafety and any such directives should be allowed and have automatic right of challenge at law by any person who believes they do not conform to the meaning of Safety as defined within the Act.

6) Any future organisation should have by way of oversight an Industry Consultative Body or Committee made up of properly elected representatives of the Industry and Community and they should be given the right of veto of any decision by the regulatory body with respect to the exercise of its powers or functions excepting those which involve matters of criminal sanction.

7) Invesigator powers as per the Regulations should be withdrawn and repealed, there are a nonsense and those employed to investigate require no special powers excepting those requiring them to gather evidence and where they do then they should be required to justify to a Justice the exercise of any power requiring entry and search, the same as Police are required to.


8) The application of a criminal sanction and hence offences under the rules with a penalty provision should be restricted to grave and wilful acts or loss of life. All other breaches should be dealt with by way of administrative action only and subject to review by the AAT and the Commonwealth Ombudsman.

The examples which support such reform and the need for reform to be urgently conducted are evident in the many instances if not hundreds of cases and examples that now go back to the Seaview Inquiry period where the Authority has been repeatedly show and allowed to continue to conduct its affairs with the cultural perspective and powers (via convoluted regulations and orders) so that it is effectively in all things that it does judge, jury and executioner. It should be allowed to bring a case or require that a case be answered where it has the evidence to support the allegations it makes but only to a Court of Law.

And until all the above happen you will never have a fair and impartial regulator acting in the interest of the communith or the industry but what we evidently have now and have had for some time - failure.

[Kharon]

My vote for Grip Pipe, well said that man. The 9 is for a couple of typo's (strict liability offence).

The 10 is for one of the best 'nutshells' it has ever been my pleasure to read.

E' Brava that man; Brava.

:D:D
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[rutan around]

Bravo Bravo Bravo Grip-Pipe. Agree with everything you wrote. If these changes don't happen soon we (everyone interested in the future of aviation) should mobilize. We should have every pilot and Lame tip a once only $1,000 into a fighting fund. (Ask anyone who has been wrongfully dealt with by CASA how cheap this is.) The $30 million raised if banked conservatively would give us $1.5 million every year to fight the good fight. No more Pizzing around in that AAT kangaroo court. We could drag CASA kicking and screaming into real courts with with real judges and maybe even a jury. Real courts award costs so that would ensure we only took on cases that had merit. It might even make CASA wary about bringing on cases that didn't. eg Johns case.We could pursue through the civil courts individual officers who who have clearly and deliberately committed criminal acts--generally perjury. Some of the money might also be used to further our fight in the political arena. Once CASA has been sorted we'll move on to that other needlessly expensive,clearly delusional,empire building handbrake on aviation---AVIATION SECURITY.
Cheers RA

[thorn bird]

Grip, mate...brilliantly put. Just about sums up what should occur.
Given the huge amount of money CASA has already, I believe corruptly, pissed up against the wall, delivering the industry unintelligable gobble de Gook. How much will the national debt have to rise to actually deliver what you so succinctly suggest?.
Maybe the short term answer would be to subcontract oversight to the FAA, the savings made pay down the national debt, the industry could get back on its feet, the minister could crow about how safe aviation in Australia has become, then having seen how a "Proper System" works we could do as NZ did and produce a modified version of the FAR's to suit Australia.
Was I mistaken or was there a veiled threat contained in the newby half mans post??? maybe, and we can only hope, these posts are starting to sting a tad.

[grip-pipe]

Halfman, all that is required for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

My friend you should not nor should any one else interested or involved hold the slightest concern about CASA and its tactics, they are evident everywhere you look and to everyone in the industry, nothing to fear except more of the same.

We all know how bullies operate, first they try to frighten you, then they try to isolate you then they try and may even use force against you but only in secret and away from decent people.

What is needed is reform not a lynching party.

As they say - sunlight is the best antiseptic!

[gobbledock]

Halfinches post certainly did appear to be a thinly veiled threat. Well he can stick his threat straight up his a#s.
I have a good rumor to post here, provided by a long term CASA insider. My source told me that when Mr Dick Smith was the boss he actually discussed the concept of going back to the old DCA days and having Inspectors with virtual ticket books out pounding the tarmacs. Good deeds would be rewarded, mischief punished and at the same time the frontline inspector would be 'seen' by industry, but could also help, advise, discuss and find solutions WITH industry to make improvements or resolve problems.
However, some CASA low ranked persons who put together a proposal were literally blocked from accessing Mr Smith by some of Mr Smiths right hand men who ironically now themselves sit in the upper echelons of this Australian star chamber.
Now Dick, I know you are a proud man, but you and several after you have made the cardinal mistake of culling the wrong numbers within CASA. You should have started with your lieutenants and the faceless powerbrokers who still reside at CASA. These guys have spent manyany years learning how to play you boys to the very maximum.

So along with the suggestions here by people like 'Kharon the astute', 'Grip-pipe the articulate', 'Thorn bird the intellect' and 'sarcs the savvy' I would like to reiterate that CASA executives must serve terms of a maximum of 3 years. Any longer than that and you end up with what you presently have - a gang of silver haired pensioners ingrained and addicted to the juicy fat salaries, bonuses and rorts that accompany their daily work ethic. Fat pudgy pigs with snouts embedded in government provided troughs. This type of long term dross needs to be exhumed from beneath the foundations of Fort Fumble and discarded to where all the other human waste is disposed.
Fort Fumble attracts a plethora of nuptys who are psychopaths, bullies, incompetent, unable to fly in the real world, manage through malfeasance, are bully boys, kiss asses and ministers foot stools, they could no longer fly a real jet or fight a real legal case of their own gumption, skill and fortitude.
No, a bunch of limp wristed weasels hiding under a protective cocoon that attach themselves to a host- the ministers office. These pathetic faceless men are still tit fed by their mama - the ministers office, who tells them when they can suckle, cry, giggle or soil themselves.
A conglomerate of soft di#ks who have never fought a school fight or drawn some claret during a pub fight. No these bureaucratic 'girly men' are used to hiding under mama's skirt then running out and bitch slapping you, disapearing back up mama's skirt before you can react.

Time to tear the walls down. The silo must crumble. It is time to stop polishing the turd.

[thorn bird]

Gentlemen,
a rumour I heard?
A senior member,a rather notorious senior member, of CASA had his roots from an Eastern Block country's legal system.
Could this explain the "Stasi" like approach being applied to the industry by CASA.
Is CASA legal being run to a KGB template?
The way things seem to be going I'm almost prepared to believe anything!!

[Sarcs]

So this poll hasn't been unstuck?! Good thing by the look of it as there has been some good 'post' reading in the meantime, cheers guys'n'gals!:ok:

After reading all these viewpoints, solutions, critiques etc..etc I must say that with all the experience and brainpower displayed:D, we could create a very effective aviation lobby group. I suppose that would only work if people are prepared to put their 'money where their mouth is'!

Just a thought!:cool:

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

Apologies for the badly worded post I made. It was made quickly and I'm certainly not on the side of CASA but on the side of those denied 'a fair go' or 'natural justice' by the bullies.

One outcome of this forum will be a greater awareness of the tactics CASA are likely to use against their next target. This should help ensure the targeted person and their legal support are now in a stronger position to win against CASA.

I've certainly been on the receiving end of some of CASA's tactics myself.

[T28D]

Thornbird you are absolutely correct !!!!!!

[gobbledock]

A senior member,a rather notorious senior member, of CASA had his roots from an Eastern Block country's legal system.
Could this explain the "Stasi" like approach being applied to the industry by CASA.
Is CASA legal being run to a KGB template?
Now why doesnt that surprise me. Perhaps the Swastika will become their new emblem or motif. Regulation by execution !!! What a great bunch hey, Star Chamber members, voodoo witch doctors, queers and steers plus the odd sociopath!
Funny, the regulator oversights industry by measuring risk. Who is measuring the additional risk that the regulator is contributing to aviation by it's actions or incations? Interesting also how Queensland Labor will roll a head over the latest health debacle where $16 million is misappropriated, yet CASA can spend 23 years and almost $200 million of taxpayer money on a reform program that has been subjected to incompetence, alleged malfeasance and generally a complete failure, yet remain absolutely unaccountable?
Das system ist shisen

[aroa]

Enjoying the language of some of these posts. Great stuff. Tell it like it is.
I hope their bloody ears are burning. As if they have any conscience.

Thorny.. believe it. The only difference between the Stasi and some tarmac crawlers I've had the misfortune to meet, is that they didnt have long shiny boots, grey uniforms and alsation dogs so they'd be easily identifiable.
But the approach was the same... Halt! Handen hoche!
False accusation, made up "evidence", and any old defamatory BS to back it up.
I'm pissed off that I never got a free pair of striped pyjamas.:{

CASA has developed into its own unaccountable Soviet.:mad::mad:
Za Stalina!

[Kharon]

The Mod's advise that the thread will auto un stick on the 19th. So, what's next?.

That question has been asked, debated and we hope, answered. It proposed that everyone who was good enough to 'sign up' will be sent a copy of a reform proposal. The proposal will contain a list of headings, e.g. 1.0. Pink socks on Tuesday, (Reg 36 24 36). If you have/had an issue related to the context of heading 1.0. your response will become part of the appendix to 1.0. In this way, quantifiable numbers can be assessed, edited and published. There will be strict 'guidelines' provided for obvious reasons, but they are essential to protect participants.

We will open a very secure email account for those who wish to participate in an anonymous fashion, the proposal response will be 'de identified' against a general explanation provided of why this is necessary. I believe these are a vitally important element of the package.

The snowball rolled at the top of the mountain is, in the way of these things, gaining momentum; of course, there were only ever two options, break up or move to an inevitable conclusion. The last word I feel belongs to Flying Spike.

Quote: Flying Spike.
A petition itself will, I fear, not sway any fair adjudicator or investigator to act. If the "undersigned" have a case history to support their signature and their complaints have not been followed, then that is damnable in itself and difficult for any regulator to hide behind ignorance.
Shokran - Ma'a salama. (Thank you - Goodnight). :D

[Frank Arouet]

I note a late surge of non agreement on the poll.

Who said CASA were'nt on the ball?

[gobbledock]

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/media/gallery/images/mccormick/mccormick1.jpg http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/media/gallery/images/jonathanaleck-small.jpg



http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/media/gallery/images/tfarquharson1-small.jpg http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/corporat/images/hawke.jpghttp://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/corporat/images/gray.jpg http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/corporat/images/gillies.jpghttp://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/corporat/images/danos.jpg

Could this be the the reason the place is such a mess???

John McCormick. Started flying in 1974. Career highlights – Cathay Pacific (worth the research). Regulatory reform program – No greater success than the previous incumbents over almost a quarter of a century

Jonathan Aleck . Career highlights- Lecturing law in PNG. Years at CASA = 18. Regulatory reform program – Still not finished, 23 years and counting

David Gray. Managing director of Boeing for 11 years. Whoopty doo.
Regulatory reform value adding = 0

Allan Hawke. Government beauracrat and public service employee since 1974, 37 years. Say no more.
Regulatory reform value adding = 0

Helen Gillies – 20 year corporate lawyer.
Regulatory reform value adding = 0

Trevor Danos - Has practised law for over 30 years. Big Deal.
Regulatory reform value adding = 0


Terry Farquaharson - Started flying in 1964, well before Neil Armstrong walked on the moon. Years at CASA = 12. Regulatory reform program - Still not finished , 23 years and counting.


Isn't this supposed to be aviation and safety? We have pensioners, has-beens, lawyers, bureaucrats - no wonder the job is not getting done.

[Sarcs]

And guess who the government has as experts to respond to the 22 Senate inquiry recommendations??..Anyone?? Those very same numbnuts!:rolleyes:

That is why the Governments response looks and reads like this:
http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/rat_ctte/pilots_2010/gvt_response_221111.pdf

There goes another couple of mil of wasted taxpayers money!:ugh::ugh:

[Frank Arouet]

Next time I see a Dole Bludger I'll shake his hand and congratulate him for only taking $10,000 pa from the public purse. (Of which he puts 10% back in GST at the Pub or Supermarket). I'll even apologise to him for all the bad things I've heard and repeated about him as being the main cause of the dependence on welfare being a problem for taxpaying Australians.

Bludgers indeed!

[Kharon]

"Well, well who'da thunk it, eh, blow me down", (slaps leg is amazement).

Is there an additional per dium for consulting I wonder, Christmas coming up and all.

Tick, tock, Tick, tock. Indeed. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif



http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg805/scaled.php?server=805&filename=bve0103l.png&res=medium

[gobbledock]

Oh yes, would be good to pull some data out of the yearly CASA report which lists consultant companies and money spent. It is always fun perusing the stats and seeing which former employee's have earned a tidy sum providing consultancy work. I gave up scrutinizing the finer details as it was all too sickening, however I might do some data analysis if for anything to simply share the info with all who are interested. Who knows, maybe Senator X or an open minded Journo like Paul Phelan would be interested?
And I would like to see a full break down of the amount of money, fees, bonuses and expenses incurred by the "Magnificent Seven'?
Maybe some of them have even needed to purchase extra office items such as blood pressure tablets, zimmer frames and adult nappies as some of the dinosaurs are pushing the age barrier? Must be good money staying in the public service hey?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlwOd7ZmPn8KI6m1MBjTJBIzc1Vlbhh79PVwrj5dG pIvY9qDpprA

oink oink

[aroa]

Love ya work...!

Rec. 18 ..." CASA require operators to observe the highest standards of incident reporting from their personnel"

Great pity CASA doesnt require that from THEIR personnel.!

Rec 19 ..." in order to enhance a 'just culture' and open reporting operators are to ensure... adequate training in procedural fairness."

Great pity CASA doesnt require that from THEIR personel.!

Why is all this stuff a one way street.? Must be that old "dont do as I do, do as I SAY" syndrome.

Interesting to note that most recs. had something to eventuate in "late 2011"
or 2012, possibly. Maybe a typo should really read 2102.

The spin is so acute I feel dizzy...:sad:

[flyingfiend]

Well, well well; I go away for a couple of months and look what has happened here!

The usual 'CASA' bashers up to their old tricks: pull something out of the air, post it on PPRune, mix in a few abusive mates, wait a few posts (preferably until there is a new page of posts) and you can cook up a case where you quote yourself as a harbinger of FACT!

Where is 'CASAWEARY'? Is he/she still worried about the federal police?

Anyway, I am not interested in CASA, it is the intellectual fraud that gets to me about this.

But lets see what this is all about. Off to the Senate with a petition are we?

Well, if we look at the numbers that are in the public domain:

1. Pilots in OZ: approx 30,000.
2. LAMEs in OZ: approx 7000.

On the top line of the equation: your petition supporters, add in those who 'fear retribution' for good measure and what do you get with this recipe?

A dissatisfied percentage of .7%!!!

It would be a total waste of my taxes for the Senate to cough up for an enquiry.

Plus, there are some things that the odd (no pun intended) person of the more vocal variety here may have to consider (I could be wrong, I don't work in absolutes):
e.g. police still considering very serious charges over the death at night of a single pilot into Botany Bay from some time ago;

CASA finding out about a certain Wilga that is now in Boonah that EVERYONE knows had an illegal fuel modification done to it sometime by someone when the aircraft was in North Queensland (not done well though, it leaked)

And lastly

Some person has chosen to vilify practicing lawyers.

Oh dear; no other comment required.

So, I agree; things could be better but it may take more horsepower from those pursuing it than has been demonstrated here.

Oh and don't forget, when you reply remember to move rapidly to attack me rather than debate the issues.

FF

[gobbledock]

Agh yes, right on cue! The CASA spin machine hits panick mode!
Long time in between jousts my robust friend!

Well, well wll; I go away for a couple of months and look what has happened here!That certainly was a long international rort on this occasion, several months in Montreal?

Where is 'CASAWEARY'? Is he/she still worried about the federal police?Good question, he/she always had entertaining posts. Perhaps the Feds have locked he/she up? Then again, perhaps he/she got an inside tip, that would be illegal of course, but just maybe. How else would he/she know thae Feds were after he/she?

Anyway, I am not interested in CASA, Oh come on, attacking CASA is like touching the pupil of your eye! You are surely one very sensitive member of their inner sanctum.

It would be a total waste of my taxes for the Senate to cough up for an enquiry. But it isn't a total waste of my taxes paying for you as a regulator to receive corporate bonuses? Oh my how your hypocrisy know's no bounds.

CASA finding out about a certain Wilga that is now in Boonah that EVERYONE knows had an illegal fuel modification done to it sometime by someone when the aircraft was in North Queensland (not done well though, it leaked) I hope that information is already public. It is a federal and public service offence for a public servant to leak sensitive information you know? Oh I forgot, you only post from internet cafe's that have no overhead CCTV. Don't stress, keep leaking!

Some person has chosen to vilify practicing lawyers.How dare they, isn't that just awful.

Oh and don't forget, when you reply remember to move rapidly to attack me rather than debate the issues. Debating is much more entertaining. As for moving rapidly well you would not know about that, being a public servant and all. How about I move as rapidly as the regulatory reform program?

[Frank Arouet]

Well, well well; I go away for a couple of months

Obviously in a time warp in a parallel Universe.

Some person has chosen to vilify practicing lawyers

Bugga me! you must be one of them, or so close up their bum as to make you an accomplice.

What a dope.:ugh:

[gobbledock]

What a dope.:ugh: Frank, very much so, as he is either a lawyer, part of their inner sanctum or an FOI.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Oh and don't forget, when you reply remember to move rapidly to attack me rather than debate the issues.Well, if you insist...;)
Some person has chosen to vilify practicing lawyers Practising. By a C not with a C, so the saying goes. :cool:

It's like being a Mormon or a used car salesman. Joke doing the rounds in the sleepy city... a local firm has gone bad with a number of lawyers laid off without prior notice, allegedly bills, wages and super have not been paid, all the usual sludge but the partners are still driving around in fancy cars to much condemnation from the legal fraternity. The joke is of course; when even the sharks are calling you a scum sucking, bottom dwelling shyster, you must be pretty low...:E A lawyer joke from the lawyers (and they have a strange sense of humour). Suffice to say, they're pretty used to it and I doubt they need a person with a sword to fight on their behalf...which is of course how barristers started in any case.
So, I agree; things could be better but it may take more horsepower from those pursuing it than has been demonstrated here.Your suggestion? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? What can the average aviating citizen do when they are dissatisfied with a regulator and frustrated with its perceived shortcomings, except complain on the internet? Letters go unanswered, pollies don't care and aviation's too hard for them to figure out even if they did. As you've stated, petitions do jack all... These days the actual frontline CASA staff are harder to spot in the wild than bilbies, and when you do you often wish you hadn't...:uhoh: What to do?

Lawyers are good at interpreting points of law and being swordsman for their clients. Whether they are good at running government departments is more questionable, particularly in relation to goodwill and industry liaison.

When there is no industry trust in a regulator, the regulator may as well pack up and retire to a burrow in Canberra. IME (with a different regulator:suspect:), 95+% of people generally do the right thing or want to do the right thing if it doesn't cost them too much money or paperwork. When the regulator won't dialogue with the 95% and the 5% keep getting away with it, you can hardly blame people for being CASA skeptics.

[Kharon]

Just to think about it. Ms. Gillard runs the country and every day must be concerned about what the people think, how they will react to policy, law, overseas actions and the eternal, never ending press. She seems to take the brickbats and the bouquets with equal grace and often humour. Mr Bob Brown daily faces public, party and media criticism, Mr. Abbott probably gets a daily dose of the very same medicine.

My local council, the State Government, the Head of the armed forces, the Head of the Police force, the guy who runs the garbage truck services, all of 'em, at one time or another catch a load of flack.

Funny though, never seem to hear veiled threats from them, never see them reach for the Federal Police, rarely have they taken public umbrage with a private citizen expressing a view, voicing concern or even daring to protest.

But CASA, ah well that's a horse of a different colour. The difference is of course that the above-mentioned public servants know they are not above the law, that they are accountable for the taxpayer money they spend, they are responsible, to the people for their blunders and triumphs,

So, CASA is different – please explain why ?.

Just because they say so, don't cut to much ice.

Yours sincerely.

A very angry, disappointed industry. (You know, remember, the one you are paid to serve).

Well, we are waiting, a bit like pigeons waiting for a statue to be unveiled.

[Sarcs]

The trouble is that CASA's 'bullyboy' regime has been re-inforced by the Government giving them another pot of money (budget increase of 89mil)!

Meanwhile the mob next door (ATSB), that could possibly keep them honest, is hamstrung by a lack of funds. Ever noticed how when the ATSB is under the pump and feeling media pressure (Jetstar incident prompts CASA to lift its oversight | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/12/15/atsb-failure-to-act-on-jetstar-cockpit-incident-contrary-to-public-interest/) ) how all their day to day functions fall behind e.g. Weekly Summaries.

Not that I think Ben is wrong in condemning the safety watchdog, I just think he is going at the wrong side of the double-headed watch dog!

Not only has the government (again) fallen into the trap of throwing money at a perceived problem, but they have thrown that money at the wrong side of the watch dog!:ugh::ugh:

[thorn bird]

The flying f...kwit should perhaps post a thread
regarding the brilliant world class job CASA is doing.
What better way of countering all this negativity from a tiny
minority of unwashed rabble.
Educate us on:
How Australia leads the world in air safety.
How we have a vibrant, growing industry .
How our standards of training are so high, much higher than the rest of the world.
How Manufacturers are lining up to open factories here because CASA experts are so brilliant that to build an aircraft without their input would
be sure to fail.
How our regulations are the envy of the world, for their simplicity and effectivness, that even ICAO and the FAA seek CASA advice.
How CASA is a model litigant, striving to promote truth and justice, always prepared to admit when they may have got it wrong and ensuring they correct and miscarriages.
Or are CASA's spin doctors running out of ideas?

[aroa]

Flyingfiend. Unfortunately your pro CASA mouth is far bigger than yr mind.!
But I do acknowlege it is a rumour network after all.

Re the Wilga you know so much about.?

I'm surprised you didnt put a whole lot of exclamation marks after EVERYONE in capitals, in yr excitement to spread the word. Did you wet yourself with the excitement of your CASA factual revelation.:O

In the 15 years I owned that aircraft, the fuel line mod for a long range tank that the Kiwi guys did, but put it on a ship instead... never leaked.:ok:

But then again you say "you dont work in absolutes" Thats for fn sure.

Your call, DIPSTICK.

[Frank Arouet]

And of course how can we forget that in depth prosecution of the illegal modification to another Wilga in Qld where the owner had split the one piece elevator and made it into a two piece affair. It's possible the owner thought by adding elevaileronsrudderco-ordinator it could do split arse turns. Poor sod got caught taking one of the elevators off for a look without looking over his shoulder for the Stasi.:cool:

[gobbledock]

CASA Execs at it again...read below

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQC4rGlWq2-8eQRfruz0UMFaO-NpZXMRsXnjFQY_llGdPfRNoZwaQ


It seems that although the Regulator received a tasty top up to the bottomless trough by around $89 million, they still dont have enough cash to cover the executives salaries, bonuses and never ending inetrnational travel to exotic wank fests:

CASA UPDATE: (http://www.stepcampaign.apesma.org.au/2011/12/casa-update-%e2%80%9ccasa-will-not-discuss-this-claim-any-further%e2%80%9d/)

CASA UPDATE: “CASA WILL NOT DISCUSS THIS CLAIM ANY FURTHER”
Posted on December 15, 2011 by APESMA

On 14 and 15 December, further bargaining meetings for the new CASA Enterprise Agreement were held in Melbourne/Canberra.
Your current agreement expired on 30 November 2011 and every day that goes by all members are further disadvantaged and, in real terms, worse off. CASA knows this.
As members have seen these negotiations have been marred by continued delays from the Authority. This includes delays in putting forward CASA’s bargaining position and delays in responding to union claims.
In the latest example, CASA representatives had specifically committed to respond, in writing, with CASA’s final position on the key outstanding claims by COB Friday 9 December. This did not happen and CASA’s position was not even available for the next meeting, the following Wednesday (14 December).
When CASA did eventually deliver their final response it was a dismissive response of, and failed to address, members’ key claims, and refused further discussions:
“As CASA has reiterated its position, CASA will not discuss this claim any further.” (CASA letter dated 14 December 2011)
That response also said CASA has had a reduction in revenue and it has proposed a short 18 month agreement with only 3% pa proposed salary rise which CASA said it was “all CASA can realistically afford”.
CASA also claims that government has mandated that “CASA (along with every other federal government agency) deliver a 2.5% efficiency dividend.” How much of that 2.5% is achieved by denying your increase, or refusing to agree to backpay to the date your current agreement expired (1 December 2011)?
Instead CASA is suggesting your next pay increase should be delayed until March/April 2012. That delay is enough to cover “efficiency dividends” for the next three years!!!!
KEY MEMBER CLAIMS – All rejected by CASA
The following are the key issues outstanding from the Unions log of claims which CASA have rejected:

Wage rise of 4.5% per annum
Backpay to expiry of current agreement
Length of the Agreement – CASA wants a short term agreement – why?
TOIL for additional hours worked for employees above CSL3
Superannuation guaranteed at 15.4% in the agreement
Pay parity and addressing AWA rates
Value of proposed ASR 2C pay point
Removal of hard barrier between ASR3 and ASR 3B
Acknowledge increased responsibilities in CMT pay structure
Recognition of ASR qualifications
The effects of Part 66 on Licensed AME AWIs
AWI Endorsement Loadings and Licence Payments
(non absorption of ) NVG allowances
Extend type endorsement loadings
Replace ATPL with CPL in rotary wing
Delegates Rights
DELAYS CAUSE MEMBERS LOSS
Continued delays in negotiations and addressing members’ claims have resulted in no new agreement being reached since the expiry of the current agreement on 30 November 2011.
The CASA workforce knows of CASA’s history of delaying enterprise agreements.
This means delayed wage increases, with a corresponding loss to superannuation benefits and other entitlements, with members suffering financial losses caused by CASA. While delays disadvantage every CASA employee, CASA has dismissed the contribution every employee has made to the Authority’s efficiency and operation.
Employees have cooperated with every CASA initiative. These are some:

move from Moorabbin to Melbourne,
similar plans to relocate Bankstown and Sydney;
rationalisation of the Brisbane office
restructure of the regions generally;
trial of CMT in the Melbourne Office;
purported implementation of CMT in Melbourne and Central region
These changes are surely not about less efficiency, less productivity, less enhancement of safety.
Yet CASA refuses to recognise your contribution. Government wages policy provides for increases over and above the minimum 3% where productivity and efficiency is demonstrated.
Why does not CASA not acknowledge your contribution to what it refers to as:
“… improved services to industry” and “a stronger capacity to deliver our key services”, and “enhanc(ing) our capacity to manage resources”. (CASA letter dated 14 December 2011)
Instead CASA insists you are only worth the minimum, and you do not deserve back-pay.
ESCALATION NEEDED: INDUSTRIAL ACTION?
It is now clear that further progress in negotiations will depend upon escalating your campaign. One option for escalating the campaign is to run a protected action ballot.
Protected Industrial Action is a last resort but is sometimes necessary to demonstrate that employees are serious about achieving fair improvements to conditions.
Before Protected Action can be taken a ballot must be held where a majority of Union Members who vote must vote to approve the potential types of industrial action proposed as protected action.
Before the ballot can be held an application must be made to Fair Work Australia.
Unions will be talking to delegates and members about support for making a protected action ballot before Christmas.
To facilitate this, therefore, the Unions are in the process of preparing applications to Fair Work Australia for approval to hold protected industrial actions ballots.
HAVE YOU JOINED YOUR UNION?
The important point to take on board is that only union members are entitled to vote in a protected action ballot (and then take industrial action). Whilst CASA won’t know names of people who voted the numbers of members who vote and how they vote will be declared after the ballot.
Without enough members voting the result of the ballot, and any subsequent action may not be significant enough to affect the Authority.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
Every CASA employee needs to ask themselves if they want to take what is offered:

a 2% pay increase almost five months after your current agreement expired, and then
another 2.5% around 15 months later (based on CASA proposed time frames);
with few, if any, improvements to conditions,
and a range of selected cuts.
or if it’s time to send a message.
If you’re not a union member- it’s time to join, if you are – talk to your colleagues and Reps about making the Authority take you seriously.

SO WHAT IS CASA DOING NOW?
CASA’s ‘final’ position was reiterated at today’s meeting (15 December), and was rejected in totality. CASA’s response is that it proposes to go to the workforce to seek your feedback, directly.
CASA employees will no doubt be ecstatic to learn that three weeks after your current agreement expired the Authority is now interested in your views.
Should they ask you, let them know you are fed up with their delays and cuts – your negotiators have.
In so far as arranging further meetings – the unions have said we are available at any time to meet as soon as CASA a reasonable position to discuss. Their ‘final’ position is not reasonable.
Instead, the next meeting is tentatively scheduled for 16 January 2012. That says it all really!!

Of interest is how CASA waited until the Executives received their 2011 bonus payments and waited until Albanese had his ludicrous unjustified snivelling salary rise before they dropped this poo bomb on the inspectors? Perhaps The Skull, Joyce and Albanese are closer friends than one expected? Same mantra.
To save money CASA has even made sure that the positions of CMT Leaders go to current team leaders, the majority of which are complete knobs, but are already on a higher payscale, and that is the only reason they got the jobs.
And why has around a dozen safety system inspectors and safety system specialists quit in 18 months?
Is the threat of strike action the reason why the HR Manager got pushed?

Fort Fumble cannot manage aviation safety, compliance, the regulatory reform program, industry, its finances or its own people.....What does this tell you? Time for all those aging executives to pick up their zimmer frames and retire with their fat bank accounts and be gone once and for all. Take Albanese while you are at it.

Wanted - One good Senator with a huge wrecking ball..Apply now!!

[Kharon]

Noting a sudden downturn in the "Not playing/not voting" numbers perhaps.

Long live the fifth column. :D:D:D http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Kharon]

I've been informed that the response to the petition has been emailed to everyone who signed.

If anyone who did sign, has not got a copy of the reponse report please PM me and I'll see what can be done.

Thanks Mod's, thanks troops and merry Christmas to one and all excepting
(-http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif-) :D http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Postmortem]

Report: Garuda B733 at Malang on Jul 22nd 2011, hard landing

By Simon Hradecky, created Wednesday, Dec 14th 2011 11:32Z, last updated Wednesday, Dec 14th 2011 11:32Z (The Aviation Herald (http://www.avherald.com/))
A Garuda Indonesia Boeing 737-300, registration PK-GGO performing flight GA-292 from Jakarta to Malang (Indonesia) with 108 passengers and 8 crew, performed a VOR approach to Malang's runway 35 visually circling to runway 17, however, the aircraft got too high on the approach and turned in too early on base to runway 17 struggling to acquire the extended runway and glidepath. The aircraft subsequently touched down hard prompting the tower controller to inquire the possibility of a hard landing with the crew. The aircraft was instructed to stop at the end of runway 17 and hold pending a runway inspection, which revealed some metal debris in the touch down zone of runway 17. The aircraft subsequently was cleared to backtrack the runway to taxi to the apron. No injuries occurred, the aircraft received substantial damage including wrinkles of the left wing, a fractured nose wheel hub and damage to the left engine inlet.

Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee (NTSC) released their preliminary report reporting, that the training captain (46, ATPL, 14,197 hours total, 5,275 hours on type) was pilot monitoring, trainee first officer #2 (28, CPL, 457 hours total, 457 hours on type) was pilot flying, trainee first officer #1 (33, CPL, 206 hours total, 206 hours on type) was occupying the observer's seat.

Flight GA-292 was number 3 in the arrival sequence to Malang and therefore had been sent into a high level VOR holding for runway 35, active runway was 35.
After the two preceding arrivals had landed, the tower changed the runway to 17 because winds had changed to southerly at 10-15 knots. GA-292 was instructed to leave the VOR holding and commence a VOR let down to runway 35 circling visually to runway 17. After completing the let down the aircraft joined a right downwind for runway 17, turned onto base. When the first officer initiated the turn onto final, the captain assessed that the aircraft was too high for the approach and the turn was too early bringing the aircraft tracking right off the extended centre line, and took control of the aircraft. The captain increased rate of descent to acquire the glidepath while at the same time trying to align the aircraft with the extended center line.

The aircraft finally touched down in the touch down zone of runway 17 and rolled down to the runway end to do a 180 degrees turn to backtrack the runway to the apron.
While taxiing down the runway the controller inquired about the possibility of a hard landing, which the captain replied to in the positive. The controller therefore instructed the aircraft to hold before taxiing down runway 35 and had the runway inspected. The runway inspection found metal debris in the touch down zone of runway 17.

After about 10 minutes holding the aircraft was cleared to taxi down runway 35 and to the apron, where passengers disembarked normally.
A post flight inspection found wrinkles to the left hand wing, the nose wheel inner hub was fractured and the left engine inlet cowling was damaged




What is interesting is the following –


After the Jogjakarta crash in 2007 and the ensuing EU bans, Australian politicians also wanted to ban Garuda. However our Indonesian neighbours told the Australian government that if Australia adopted the same bans as the EU then Indonesia would not allow Australia to use their airspace any longer. Of course the Australian government panicked at the thought of losing all that airspace as the political fallout publicly and impact on operators, particularly Qantas, who would no longer have had the correct fleet type because they now would have to add an extra 4 to 6 hours flying time to flights that had to now circumnavigate Indonesian airspace.
So the ITSAP program was born, in which millions would be allocated by DIFTR to provide safety assistance to Indonesia in the way of aviation, maritime and Airservices. About $20 million over an initial 3 year program, 2008 to 2010, and it has since been extended into 2011/12 and now funded by AUSAID.
The Australian government decided that this was one method of allowing Indonesian carriers to continue flying into Australia under an improved level of safety, and it would keep the skies clear for Australia to continue using Indonesian airspace.
A typical government spinning way to save face and political votes, yet a somewhat workable solution in some ways.


The problem is this. DIFTR funded about $5 million to provide the aviation safety education. The money was allocated to CASA to control, and therefore provide the resources to conduct that side of the program package. That is where things turn pear shape, as usual. The program started out well, the right intent was there, however as bureacracies go, the bureaucrats unleashed a wrecking ball by way of CASA mismanagement. During the first 3 years most went well. A couple of Inspectors lead the programme by training the regulator and industry in Indonesia. Several thousand industry people as well over 200 regulators were trained in an array of safety systems, flight operations and airworthiness. However the Manager of the CASA program in Brisbane received endless bullying by the Assistant Directors, first Quinn and then Farquharson, as well as bullying by the notorious HR Manager who eventually became a liability and was shipped out the door recently, very quietly at that. In standard CASA fashion management hounded, vilified and pushed the Brisbane manager out the door for no greater reason than a simply dislike of his character, nothing more nothing less. McCormick was happy as he had never embraced the idea of CASA helping the Indonesians, and he smelt blood. The next move was for the same bullies to turn against the programs Inspectors, in due time they too resigned from CASA, one then the other. But prior to their quitting the Associate Director took over the program due to his supposedly diplomatic skills but particularly his bureaucratic ramblings, sadly he has no true aviation concepts and he turned the program into a bureaucratic pen pushing failure. The inspectors had their wings clipped and were parked in the office for almost 12 months while the Associate Director played a beauracratic game. He hired a new manager, a female associate from the DIFTR whom he had worked with prior (another beauracrat) and the program still sat on the ground. She didn’t have to have a job interview, just change departments and you have the gig. Approximately $300k was pissed away in 12 months as she sat on her hands as well with the Associate Directors blessing, and she is completely inept and totally not understanding of the programs requirements. She was not operational, never worked for an airline, and didn’t even know the phonetic alphabet! Her claim to fame was she is an ex journalists who dabbled with ICAO by way of the usual jutting around the world on jaunts sipping wine and eating cheese crackers. Sound familiar, perhaps like the Airservices college training program run by a bank manager? Stupid dumb ass political stupidity. The lady Manager at CASA also dresses like a two-bit hooker with thigh skirts which has not gone down well within Indonesia, not to mention her utter lack or understanding of anything to do with aviation. Her other claim to fame was getting involved in another international program PASO, in which she completely destroyed that program. Ask the people involved in that program what they think about her? Hilarious .Again, bureaucracy reign supreme and the inability of these incompetents


And today? The Indonesians hate the ITSAP management, have lost most of the skills they learned, and CASA has spent over $5 million of taxpayer funds to be in a position worse off than it was in 4 years ago. Nil work done, the Indonesians are slipping backwards into old habits and accidents and incidents have risen ever since as evidenced in this thread and others.


So once again, aviation in Australia is managed by a gang of incompetent out of touch taxpayer funded fools, with Albanese at the top of the ladder followed by the CASA executive minions and low level wannabe managers. Shame shame shame.

[Lucerne]

I have recently lost all faith in CASA. I have just been through a scenario where they would take no input from me, the FOI's concerned had NO idea about how my sector of the aviation industry works, and there was absolutely no avenue of sitting down and working the situation out. I hope all concerned have a really bad Christmas and end up jobless in the new year. Your "interpretation" of the regulations concerning most issues is clear evidence of your lack of understanding of the industry in which you have previously failed and taken a padded desk job to nurture your own self importance. Your pride in the "enforcement" of regulatory issues shows your characterless demeanor and your efforts to cover your own errors are laughable. I do hope you realise the ineffective nature of your actions apart from inconvenience that your the fruitless "enforcement" of safety has caused both myself and the company for which I work. I had previously had a good working relationship with the regulator, however, the various new personalities with which I have had to negotiate over recent months have proven to me that common sense has left the department all together. I am at a complete loss to describe the sheer ignorance you have displayed in relation to real world operations. Your office has the power to facilitate safety, you should not need to revert to "enforcement" action as a first reaction. Go out and become a highway patrolman if that is your tactic. There is no room for you in aviation. That is what your previous employers have indicated to you! There will not be an aviation industry left if you continue to "govern" in your current style. Perhaps that is your goal.........that would result in absolute aviation safety. Perhaps I should point out that this would defeat your purpose, or have you lost sight of what that is?

[Frank Arouet]

I must stress, CASA are not "out of control", they are "IN" control.

If Australian Federal Police were to prosecute a lot of these matters, (and given one's faith that they have yet to be corrupted), the charge of "perverting the course of justice" would make headlines. Especially against the regulator.

You simply can't have the regulator making the laws, and policing the laws, and prosecuting the laws.

The current incumbant government doesn't deserve commenting on except to say, I didn't vote for the clowns. You get the government the small majority of fragmented idiots deserve.

[rutan around]

Frank, are you suggesting we vote for Bob Katter and the greens plus a few independents? Blind Freddy can see the coalition would do nothing. That's what they did all through the Howard years. That's when many of the criminal acts by CASA occurred and when $200 million plus was spent on the Regulation rewrite for ZERO result.Both major parties are hopeless when it comes to dealing with the criminal elements in CASA. I'll just go back to heavy drinking and wait for the day CASA accidently pings Albanese for having his shirt untucked or committing some other similar serious crime.Only while he's picking the soap up in jail will he realise what it's like for everyone else who has to deal with CASA.

[Onedown]

I didn't vote for the clowns. You get the government the small majority of fragmented idiots deserve. Neither did I Frank, the problem is that all that really changes is "the small majority". As much as I was a supporter of Johny's government, they did bugger all to resolve the CASA 'issues'.

After years of apparent endemic issues; 23 years of failed attempts by the lawyers to sort out the legislative issues, what real hope is there ... 'anarchy' ... do we have the balls for that? Why does any government allow CASA the level of autonomy they have and why does there appear to be no accountability to the government or is it simply all too hard and no one in government has the knowledge (read confidence) to take CASA on.

[Frank Arouet]

I can't argue with the last two posts. How can anybody?

As for "the Independants", therein lies the problem. Fragmented idiots who have been given a sort of legitimacy of purpose by those seeking solace from both major party's. Of the lot of them, The "mad hatter" loose in the CASA hen house would be worth watching though.

I think the voting public are a wake up to them and won't support any possibility of minority government again.

CASA are a corrupt organisation because they have had no oversight from a corrupted or weary government whose sole purpose is to remain in power.

[Onedown]

Maybe if a few more of our politicians had the balls of the 'mad hatter' we just might get somewhere.

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

More accounts of bullying and harassment from CASA .

This angle could be picked up by the media or senators with present ADF and ASA legal action.

Too many cases show it could be a systemic problem or business strategy. Cheaper than retrenchment or early retirement.

[gobbledock]

More mates rates, more bureaucrats, more people who don't know anything about aviation joining CASA's ranks, and as it would appear in postmortem's post more Insepctors leaving and more taxpayer funds squandered so as to support supposedly intellectual wordsmiths peddling their 'high level articulately worded wankery' world wide.
Fools

[Up-into-the-air]

Have you seen this:

CASA Integrity Poll (http://kwiksurveys.com/online-survey.php?surveyID=oclnnh_eda4d7e5)

Happy New Year!! for 2012

[cficare]

i'm sure some turkeys will reply....

[Kharon]

One down, 29,991 to go. Every swimming pool etc.

Get involved. One hand clapping is just that;

H.N.Y all. :D:Dhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

CASA Integrity Poll (http://kwiksurveys.com/online-survey.php?surveyID=oclnnh_eda4d7e5)

[Kharon]

Seems the media have got onto this debacle.

Someone, anyone; bring up life jackets.

Back in business boys??. See casa we're not happy until you are not happy.

What a lovely way to start a NEW year.

Thanks boys and girls.

(http://www.pprune.org/kwiksurveys.com/online-survey.php?surveyID=oclnnh_eda4d7e5)

[Dangly Bits]

CASA - We've upped our standards, so you, Up Yours!

Edited for Grammar

[aroa]

this turkey did input to the CASA (has NO) Integrity Poll.

In my book the more approbium you can heap on the buggers, maybe more publicity and eventally?? something will be done about the whole sh*tshow.

For a country that calls itself a first world 'democracy', CASA has proved to the aviation world its is THE leading bureaucratic clusterfcuk of the nation.

There is NO other option. IT HAS TO GO.
We, the people have a right to see it off.

May 2012 be that year. :ok:

ava good un!

[gobbledock]

Aroa, it will indeed be a reat year for CASA executives, see below.
(I posted elsewhere but thought it would be worth placing here as well).

I thought I would put together a little package to highlight the earnings within the CASA executive group. It’s a nauseating breakdown of where your taxpayer money is going. The details below are ONLY for the executive group, not other staff such as inspectors, plebs, skirt riders and admin people have been included. I have also included the consultancy fees!! As you will see those piggies certainly have their robust snouts planted deeply within the trough.


2011 / 2010 Highlights

Suppliers Goods and services Consultancies and service contracts:
2011($’000) = 15,793 and 2010($’000) = 14,232. Yes indeed, millions and millions on spent on those sweet Consultants.

Director’s remuneration:
The number of non-executive directors of the Authority included in these figures are shown below in the relevant remuneration bands.
Less than $150,000 = 4 .Total number of non-executive directors of the Authority 4. Total remuneration received or due and receivable by directors 2011= $315,798, 2010 = $280,681

Senior Executive Remuneration Expense for the Reporting Period:
Total expense recognised in relation to senior executive employment 2011, 2010 and Short-term employee benefits: Salary (including annual leave taken):
2011 - $4,125,845
2010 - $3,501,683

Annual leave accrued
2011 – $415,990
2010 - $310,457

Performance bonus
2011- $643,516
2010 - $458,704

Allowances
2011 - $109,969
2010 - $187,539

Total short-term employee benefits
2011 - $ 5,295,320
2011 - $4,458,383

Post-employment benefits:
Superannuation
2011 - $544,390
2010 - $ 449,322

Total post-employment benefits
2011 - $544,390
2010 - $ 449,322

Other long-term benefits:
Long-service leave
2011- $186,414
2010 - $ 148,499

Termination benefits
$150,271

Total =
2011 = $ 6,026,124
2010 = $5,206,475

Average Annual Remuneration and Bonus Paid for Substantive Senior Management -
Total remuneration (including part-time arrangements) I have included 2011 only:

Salary range Execs Actual Salary Bonus


$150,000 - $179, 999 (6) $166, 044 $15, 928


$180, 209 - $209,999 (7) $199,740 $22,244


$210,000 - $239, 999 (1) $232,001 $36,000


$240,000 - $269,999 (5) $255,648 $42,338


$450, 000 - $479, 999 (1) $479, 404 - - - - - -

Of interest is the executive positions grew by 4 since 2010

Variable Elements: With the exception of performance bonuses, variable elements are not included in the ‘Fixed Elements and Bonus Paid’ table above.
The following variable elements are available as part of the senior executives’ remuneration:

(a) Performance bonuses: Bonuses were based on the performance rating of each individual. The maximum bonus that an individual could receive was 15 per cent of his/her total employment cost.

(b) On average senior executives are entitled to the following leave entitlements: Annual Leave (AL): entitled to 20 days (2010: 20 days) each full year worked (pro-rata for part-time SES) Personal Leave (PL): entitled to 18 days (2010: 18 days) or part-time equivalent; and Long Service Leave (LSL): in accordance with Long Service Leave (Commonwealth Employees) Act 1976.

(c) Senior executives are members of one of the following superannuation funds: Australian Government Employee Superannuation Trust (AGEST): this fund is for senior executives who were employed for a defined period. Employer contributions were set at 9 per cent (2010: 9 per cent); Commonwealth Superannuation Scheme (CSS): this scheme is closed to new members, and employer contributions were averaged 28.3 per cent (2010: 24 per cent); Public Sector Superannuation Scheme (PSS): this scheme is closed to new members, with current employer contributions set at 15.4 per cent (2010: 15.4 per cent); Public Sector Accumulation Plan (PSSap): employer contributions were set at 15.4 per cent (2010: 15.4 per cent), and the fund has been in operation since July 2005; and Other: There were some senior executives who had their own superannuation arrangements (e.g. self-managed superannuation funds). Their superannuation employer contributions were set between 9 per cent to 15.4 per cent (2010: 9 per cent to 15.4 per cent).

(d) Variable allowances: Superannuation payments were provided to all senior executives: $489,675 (2010: $357,830); and Accommodation allowance up to $28,500 for the Director.

And this – During the reporting period, there were 31 employees whose salary plus performance bonus were $150,000 or more. In 2010 there were only 15. This was calculated by reference to the gross payments line of the group certificate. These employees did not have a role as senior executive and were therefore not disclosed as senior executives.

And do not forget that each other executive receives a daily away allowance commensurate with their salary. The average is around $300.00 - $450.00 PER DAY. And accommodation and sundries are already paid for. So if you go to say an ICAO function and they provide lunch and nibblies then your $450.00 allowance per day is a nice additional earner on top of those chunky salaries.


http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT2KMixycp8nhw47DEn3w45tv7RPRvEwLwS0kNhvzL BHZfy7sai

[Kharon]

(Patho?). Ah, method in the madness; now we see there is a good reason for the P. P. Performance. We are being protected from over spending on the bonus system. You can see it; if they turned in a stellar performance we simply could not afford to keep the little darlings. Yup, it all makes sense now.

Performance bonus.
2010 - $458,704.
2011- $643,516.Source – Willyleaks;
CASA 2012 Bonus Points system.

Talk believable bollocks at the Senate - 200. (Conditions apply).
Develop a long delay tactic for regulatory reform. 199.
Develop a short delay tactic for regulatory reform. 198.
Defer ICAO downgrade - 197. (Conditions apply).
Delay FAA downgrade - 197. (Conditions apply).
Invent new money wasting project - 196. (Refer Spin rules)
Totally Wreck a business - 195. (Variable scale).
Partially destroy a business - 194.

N.B. Additional points for each Pilot of LAME crucifixion. Additional points may be awarded on a variable scale against the perceived qualities of your efforts against the industry. Spin must be supported by policy.


Pork crackling with bacon sambo's anyone ?. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

CASA Integrity Poll
(http://kwiksurveys.com/online-survey.php?surveyID=oclnnh_eda4d7e5)

[Mainframe]

Gobbledock's figures seem to indicate its all about dollars,

safety, accountability and integrity are impediments that they must deal with.

If you haven't read or submitted the CASA Integrity poll, read it and submit it!

[gobbledock]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR7BH_6vlZLK6jgfDvy6thAVzwWmWaeTvg0a-VS9rfAKjQFi5XaGw

Yes nice work:
(a) 4 Board Members on a salary $150,000 per year. This excludes perks, travel, accommodation and god knows what other “add-on’s” they receive. Here is a figure that blows out to probably close to 1 million dollars per year. For a handful of lawyers and bureaucrats. Pathetic.
(b) 31 employees on $150,000+ per year
(c) Approximately 15 million dollars for the same reporting period spent on Consultants.
(d) 6 executives who earned $150,000 - $179,000 p/a. Salary was $166,044 and bonus paid was $15,928.
(e) 7 executives who earned $180,209 - $209,999 p/a. Salary was $199,740 and bonus paid was $22,244.
(f) 1 executive who earned $210,000 - $239,999 p/a. Salary was $232, 001 and bonus paid was $36,000.
(g) 5 executives who earned $240,000 - $269,999 p/a. Salary was $255, 648 and bonus paid was $42, 338.
(h) 1 executive who earned $450,000 - $479,999 p/a. Salary was $479,404 plus $28,000 living away allowance.
This excludes travel/away allowances, business class flights, hotels, functions, conferences and the list goes on. This alone would be a huge cost.

Approx total = $24, 281. 000

And don’t forget all the other “sundries” you can add on. Laptops, mobile phones, government cars. I am not saying these are unnecessary tools, but this organisation is top heavy and the salaries are over the top, and so are the bonuses.
The bureaucrats will harp on about salaries being commensurate with industry, but let’s be honest we are talking todays airline industry where pilot and management salaries (unless you are a CEO) are total ****e. These CASA clowns would not have the experience, skill, energy or knowledge to walk out of CASA and into an aviation job paying $250,000. Remember most are pension age or could not cut it in the real aviation world hence there hiding under bog brother’s wing. In the real world they would be chewed up and spat out. You are trying to tell me that these lazy public servants who have been protected by Government and have not even been out in the present aviation scene at the coal face would be walk-in’s on top $$. Keep dreaming boys, spare me.

· As many have noted, a completely new authority is needed, modelled on one of the more effective international regulatory models.
· Salaries should be slashed into line with the real aviation environment.
· Management numbers slashed to reflect the current aviation industry model.
· Bonuses scrapped.
· All staff airfrares should be cattle class (like the rest of us have to endure) and at the cheapest fare of the day.
· Earned frequent flyer points which are presently retained for personal use by CASA employees should be removed from individuals and pooled back into the Government to be used effectively to reduce costs to taxpayers. This is a disgusting situation where the taxpayer pays for CASA airfares and the individual CASA employee keeps the points.
· Consultant services slashed to save money. Millions have been spent on consultants to provide work in areas that CASA already are staffed to handle. HF, SMS, Audits, why pay a consultant when for example Inspectors are already supposedly trained and skilled in these technical fields? WTF?
· Unnecessary legal actions are another waste of taxpayer money. Each case initiated should have a clear agenda and reason behind it. The carefree attitude of spending taxpayer funds on fruitless litigation just to ‘get back at’ an individual should be something they are held accountable for.

The continued misuse of funds totalling tens of millions by government departments needs to be stopped.

[Kharon]

The "mad hatter" loose in the CASA hen house would be worth watching though.

To watch that show; Oh boy wouldn't I just. What was it Jack the ripper said ? - "such larks" ??.

Chook shed ? perhaps, hen house seems a bit 'Clintonish' methinks, but then, it's late. :D

[gobbledock]

Oh yes I see it now.

Match of the day on WWECASA, 'Mad Bob Hatter vs The Screaming Skull'. The match to be scheduled for one fall only, Katter wearing his bushwacker outfit and the Skull in his ridiculous Friday Hawaiin shirt while chomping on a stoogie.
Then followed closely by a cage match featuring 8 executives all fighting for a ringside seat at the trough! On offer are bonuses, ICAO ollie jollie's, business class travel and Chairmans Lounge membership. C/mon boys, lets bring home the bacon and leeeeeeeeeeeets get ready to rumble!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kharon]

Wasn't this the site that was advertising no confidence in CASA?

I wonder http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif. Which one does he mean ??. I mean there are so very many options to choose from. Here are but two.

CASA integrity survey. (http://www.kwiksurveys.com/?s=OCLNNH_eda4d7e5)

No confidence in CASA. (http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/no-confidence-in-casa.html)

Puzzled now. (Not being too bright at all). Why does he wonder how all this occurred ?; after all the Senate swallowed the last lot of pony pooh, didn't they ??. Huh, they did, yes, yes ??.

They did, it's all cool boys, so back to the trough.

High Ho – away we go. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Counter-rotation]

FlyingFiend wrote:

Well, if we look at the numbers that are in the public domain:

1. Pilots in OZ: approx 30,000.
2. LAMEs in OZ: approx 7000.

On the top line of the equation: your petition supporters, add in those who 'fear retribution' for good measure and what do you get with this recipe?

A dissatisfied percentage of .7%!!!

If you think that statement is correct, my god! Allow me to enlighten you (apologies if someone already has)...

If someone DIDN'T RESPOND, you can't assume their view (ie. "no problem with CASA") for them. Get it?

A dissatisfied percentage of .7%!!!

Ah, the number you are actually looking for is over 75% - That's the responses (of the total responses) that AGREE WITH THE PETITION

What does RTFQ stand for again?!

Even a "No" response to the poll doesn't neccesarily mean the respondent is satisfied with CASA! It just means they're not going to sign the petition.

Try this (then tell me things are OK with CASA!):

Agree with petition, versus Disagree with the petition (round numbers for the dum-dums)

ABOUT TEN FOR EVERY ONE!

I'm actually surprised it's not higher...

CR.

[Kharon]

Thanks CR, but unfortunately you too have it wrong. (Close but no ceegar).

The mini survey currently running is providing some up tp date results.

Viz: Q1), 1. Do you have confidence and trust in the regulator, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority? Note: If you answered YES, please go to ( 16 ).As of lunch time today 94.81%. Can you guess which box got ticked ??.

2 minutes and it's free ;- CASA Integrity Survey. (http://www.kwiksurveys.com?s=OCLNNH_eda4d7e5) :D

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

Would be interested in anybody with evidence of bullying and harassment by casa. Either as employee, delegate or anybody in industry.

Personally I think a few good cases will expose HR and others behavior.

[gobbledock]

Biscuit, history is littered with cases of bullying by this mob, both internally and externally. Not much can be done when they are protected by government.
CASA is a bully breeding ground as if they bully industry and you win your case against them te taxpayer kicks the tin and each CASA employee receives indemnity, that is standard. So they cannot lose!!
Internally if bullying is proven they still dont sack the bully, they simply move them on to another role, project, floor in the building and so the ferris wheel goes.

I like how they received additional funding of $89 million, a lot of that earmarked for 'select individuals' to give them salaries commensurate with industry yet they are financially rogering the inspectors, trying to cut endorsement allowances, allowing enterprise bargaining time frames to lapse, and currently there is talk of a 'walk out' and union action!
Again, more proof of a disconnected workforce and managements inabilty to oversight Australlian aviation when they can't pay their **** kickers properly!

Maybe the Board can address these issues when they have their once a year meeting?

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

Yes, understand how they operate. Tax payers money to the rescue. If you take any action they will wear you down financially and emotionally.

Heard some outrageous allegations made against people. Wingers, underperformers and even multiple personalities and deep hatred of casa. Although can't believe last two really? Surely with such a robust policy this wouldn't happen?

[Kharon]

Biscuit. If all we had to worry about was the odd bit of push and shove I would be in the pub, not a care in the world. But there's a lot more to it than that.

It's the corporate mendacity, operational incompetence, outrageous arrogance and totally untouchable defence mechanism protecting what is, arguably one of the most pathetic regulators in the world keeps me ticking. Tick Tock: of course, not their fault, arses covered from here to next pancake day.

We are a total international joke, a light weight; FCS great weather, few aircraft, unlimited budget and PNG beats us hands down. No wonder etc. etc.

Arrgh – steam off.

[Sarcs]

Another probing article from Ben, well worth a read:Explosives detectors added at Melbourne Airport, uselessly | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/01/24/a-freudian-slip-over-australian-aviation-safety/)
:D:D
As GD would say..."Tick Tock!":ugh:

[Counter-rotation]

Thanks Kharon, but I don't smoke anyway... :ok:

[gobbledock]

Ben is right on the money, as usual. Hopefully Senator X is at least listening to some of Ben's writings.
I have picked out some nuggets from his article. Most of it we already to know, but it is worthy refeshing the memories or educating those who don't know;
If it hadn’t been for significant diplomatic pressure and special pleading Australia would have lost its Level One safety rating (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/31/wikileaks-australia-nearly-lost-its-air-safety-rating/) with ICAO and more importantly the US Federal Aviation Administration. Substantial efforts are being made to fix those deficiencies, starting with CASA’s own infamously late program of regulatory reforms, but at times that process has thrown up strange decisions that threaten rather than enhance safety. Oh yes, great job indeed CASA. Taking Australian aviation to an all time low. Three cheers for incompetence.

One of the casualties of that process has been the deliberate striking down of higher Australian safety standards to the levels of ‘world’s best practice’ as a process of international regulatory harmonisation.
A dangerous example of this has been CASA’s approval of the removal of special life rafts (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/11/08/why-should-lord-howe-air-travellers-be-at-greater-risk-drowning-in-a-ditching/) from the Qantaslink Dash 8 turbo-props that fly the very long and exposed over water route between Sydney and Lord Howe Island.
Why should Australians flying a Qantas turbo-prop across the sea for around 105 minutes have their life rafts taken away, when wide body domestic jets are fitted with a much higher level of raft capacity even though most of those flights scarcely cross water at all?
The answer appears to be to make us conform with international standards. And to give Qantas an extra row of seats, that in its wisdom, it had for many years sacrificed in order to minimise the obvious special operational risk of the Lord Howe Island route. CASA spent two weeks preparing what I understood was an answer to this question, only to shrug and walk away.More pathetic decision making and mishandling. These unsafe decisions are what happens when bureaucrats, has-beens, lawyers and pensioners are in the drivers seat. TICK TOCK.

Reputational damage control appears to be the only plausible explanation of the ATSB having a final report shown as all but complete a year ago on the Norfolk Island ditching (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/01/09/atsb-study-on-fuellish-flying-leaves-out-pel-air-crash/) of a Pel-Air air ambulance flight and still not having an agreed final report that it can publish.
One of the key issues to be resolved over that incident is why CASA framed a regulation which appears to have been specifically designed to indulge small operators with the right to do incredibly stupid and dangerous things in planning over water flights classified as ‘aerial work.’ (A difficult issue for the head of air safety at CASA, John McCormick, since it happened before he took over, and is presumably one of many, many things he has to undo.) This type of situation was predicted a long time before it ocurred, but of course the upper echelon of incompetents at CASA wouldn't listen to the Inspectors pointing out the risk.TICK TOCK.


While the government has substantially improved funding for CASA and the ‘independent’ safety investigator, the ATSB, it is reasonable to argue that both have been short changed, and need more in order to bring the reality of safety in Australian skies up to the same heights as the public perception.
The technical work of the ATSB is outstanding, but also very late. And at times, lacking in consistency.
There has been a rise in air traffic control incidents which ought not be excused by the rapid expansion of air travel, given that by any crash statistic flight in anything larger than a small piston engined commuter aircraft has improved to unprecedented levels of low risk.
In the past 12 months the ATSB has identified quite serious lapses in training and professional standards in AirServices Australia, yet, to date, the response from the Minister’s department concerning the need for an independent inquiry into its performance has been that it is perfectly appropriate for it to inquire into itself. It isn’t.
This is an extract from a report on this late last year (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/10/14/atsb-flags-two-more-dangerous-air-traffic-control-incidents-when-will-minister-act/).
On 8 October (http://atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-127.aspx) AirServices Australia cleared a private corporate jet, a Gulfstream IV, to descend through the same flight level that a Virgin Australia 737-800 was cruising at on a crossing path as it took around 180 passengers from Brisbane to Sydney.
The private jet was on its way to the Gold Coast, and the incident occurred in the air space near Armidale.
The ATSB recently published what is a truly damning report (http://www.pprune.org/../2011/09/13/atsb-buries-serious-atc-near-miss-report-with-more-evidence-of-training-and-fatigue-failures/) concerning a close encounter between a Qantas Cityflyer 767 (250 seats) and a Tiger Airways A320 (180 seats) above Tamworth on 1 July last year.
The incident was every bit as serious as two other instances of gross incompetence by AirServices Australia involving a near miss (http://www.pprune.org/../2011/10/14/2010/11/24/how-airservices-australia-nearly-killed-443-people/) between an Emirates 777 and a Qantas 737-800 on 3 September 2009 and another (http://www.pprune.org/../2011/10/14/2011/06/24/atsb-details-more-dangerous-incompetency-by-airservices-australia/) involving a Cathay Pacific A330 and a Virgin Blue 737-800 near Darwin on 22 December 2009.
The common element in these reports is that the ATSB found that AirServices Australia had allowed inadequately trained officers to manage the separation of jets carrying hundreds of passengers.
When Plane Talking queried the situation with the office of the Minister for Transport, Anthony Albanese, it was told on the record that it was perfectly appropriate for AirServices Australia to undertake its own reviews of the issues, that public safety wasn’t compromised and, to revert to the short form of words, this writer should get lost.
These serial failures by AirServices Australia raise issues of criminal liability concerning public safety, they require urgent and diligent independent review, they require an action plan to replace a derelict administration of training and safety in AirServices Australia, and above all, they require corrective action before the Minister has to deal with heavy loss of life and an unavoidable Royal Commission.
Whether through approved statements by their chief pilots, or directly from management, all of the major carriers in Australia have expressed dissatisfaction, and even fear, of the risks of a collision in Australian air space, including situations where separation is the responsibility of military controllers where the airlines share an airfield, such as at the Newcastle and Darwin airports and air force bases.
Firing the head of a training college is not the solution to the problem, as happened recently, although it is perhaps a start.
Another operational risk to Australia’s reputation is Jetstar’s apparent serial inability to put competent first officers into its jets, and the ATSB’s reluctance to consistently inquire into major failures of what is known as cockpit resource management or CRM.
The ATSB inquired into an incident (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/12/12/some-plain-talking-about-a-botched-jetstar-flight/) in July last year in which an experienced captain was actually found by Jetstar’s own internal inquiry to have struggled to deal with incompetency on the part of a first officer who seemed to believe in mental telepathy as to who was doing what during an aborted low level approach to Melbourne Airport.
However the ATSB decided not to inquire into a second incident (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/12/15/atsb-failure-to-act-on-jetstar-cockpit-incident-contrary-to-public-interest/) in November last year in which Jetstar employed a first officer so incompetent that the incorrect wing flap setting was twice selected on an approach to Cairns.
If that sort of safety risk is manifested in the cockpit of an Australian airliner the ATSB ought to inquire. Not to inquire adds to the reputational damage recent events have caused to the conduct of aviation administration in this country.
Coming back to the press release that has encouraged this article, I’ve tested positive on about one occasion a year to an explosives trace at an Australian airport for the last two to three years. I live on a farm, so this isn’t surprising, given possible skin and clothing exposure to traces of fertilisers. However on each occasion I was asked if I lived or worked on a farm or near chemicals, and re-tested with the wand held backwards so that the problem would go away, making it obvious to me that this is all part of the theatre of airport security, and that if all those who tested positive were detained and thoroughly checked out, the airports would grind to a halt.The ATSB has also been badly infected by 'Bureaucratitis' and has declined in it's ability to investigate or provide mitigation suggestions effectively due to its spin doctoring political footstool managers. TCK TOCK.

It is a charade.Ben, indeed how true. A charad to the very end. To be played out on a runway or hillside near you soon. TICK TOCK.

[LeadSled]

Blind Freddy can see the coalition would do nothing. That's what they did all through the Howard years. That's when many of the criminal acts by CASA occurred and when $200 million plus was spent on the Regulation rewrite for ZERO result.

Not quite true, both Sharp and Vaile were activist Ministers for Transport, and between 1996 and 1998, we did get the reformed design, certification and manufacturing rules in place. They have been beneficial across the board, but have made a major contribution to the expansion of RAOz and home builts ---- the major number of new "Australian" aircraft come in these two categories.

However, it is quite true that from John Anderson on, CASA has been "back in the saddle", and the "results" are there for all to see, a voluminous increase in regulatory material, indeed an explosive growth by page count (the present Minister's preferred measure of effective Government) , but hardly "reformed".

Tootle pip!!

[Sarcs]

Minister Fumblenese plagiarising and blaming the mad monk!:ugh:

Transport Minister used lines from Michael Douglas movie The American President | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/national/transport-minister-used-lines-from-michael-douglas-movie-the-american-president/story-e6frfkvr-1226253694017)

This is the bloke overseeing CASA, god help us!!!:{

Perhaps he could ask Ozzie of the year Geoffrey Rush for help with his lines and his speech impediment.:ok:

[jas24zzk]

albanese with cheese.

Guaranteed to be mouldy

[Sarcs]

I don't think CASA are going to duck this one!:{ Onya Senator Eggleston:ok::ok:


Senator EGGLESTON: I would like to ask a question about a company called Polar Aviation based in Port Hedland. Are you aware of that company?
Mr McCormick: Yes, I am.
Senator EGGLESTON: I wish to make some inquiries about the cost of CASA's various legal cases against Polar Aviation. Polar Aviation is a small Port Hedland aviation company which I understand has been in dispute with CASA since 2004. This has led to a series of legal actions beginning with the Administrative Appeals Tribunal and then the Federal Court, all of which Polar Aviation has won and all of which cases have been appealed by CASA. I understand that now, eight years later, CASA is still appealing the decisions made about Polar Aviation. In fact, the managing director of Polar Aviation has said to me in a letter describing this process:
What followed was a relentless vendetta to close the company down. The court action that followed was defended in the AAT and the Federal Court and Polar Aviation has won on all occasions.
This case is now eight years old, as I said. All this man, Clark Butson, says he wants to do is:
… tell my story to a judge. All CASA wants to do is avoid that process at any cost. This case has real relevance and should be tested in a court. If CASA has nothing to fear why will they not bring it on?
What bothers me is that this is a small company. CASA represents the Commonwealth government and has used the financial resources of the Commonwealth government to try to shut down this very successful and respected airline in the Pilbara. I would like to have—and I ask for it to be provided on notice—a detailed summary of the costs incurred by CASA in the various legal actions against Polar Aviation.
Mr McCormick: I will ask the chief legal officer to actually give you some background. It is fair to say that Mr Butson is a bit delusional—
Senator EGGLESTON: I beg your pardon?
Mr McCormick: He is a bit delusional if that is what he thinks the outcome of the court cases has been so far.
Senator EGGLESTON: He has won them all so far. If that is a delusion, then perhaps we should go to the judges.
Mr McCormick: I have asked the chief legal officer, Mr Adam Anastasi, to fill you in.
Mr Anastasi: By way of background it is correct that in 2005 CASA cancelled Mr Butson's chief pilot approval and the air operator's certificate of Polar Aviation. There was a subsequent hearing of the AAT. In the course of that hearing the matters were resolved by consent between the parties and that resulted in the decision to cancel Mr Butson's chief pilot approval being affirmed and the decision to cancel Polar Aviation's air operator's certificate being set aside.
Subsequent to that, Polar Aviation and Mr Butson commenced legal proceedings against CASA and various of its officers in the Federal Court of Australia; that is, his action against CASA. In that regard, on 30 September 2011, the Federal Court dismissed his statement of claim in its entirety. Mr Butson and Polar Aviation have now appealed that judgment to the Full Court of the Federal Court of Australia and, as I said, that is his action against CASA. It is a claim for damages against CASA. The court has dismissed his claim—so I will stop there.
CASA can provide information concerning its legal costs in the tribunal proceedings. The current Federal Court litigation is one in which Comcover, as our insurer, has instructed external lawyers to represent CASA and its officer, so CASA is not paying legal fees in that regard. That is a matter for Comcover as to whom they instruct and on what basis. But in that regard, at least at this point in time, Polar Aviation has been ordered to pay CASA's legal costs.
Senator EGGLESTON: Is it not the case that Polar Aviation’s operating licences were restored and the case against you was for damages, for loss of income and other factors? I am not so much interested in the legal issues, which of course at the moment are sub judice; I am very interested in the total cost of the legal cases which CASA has brought against this small company over the last eight years.
Mr Anastasi: CASA has brought no action against those persons or the company. On odd occasions it has been either Polar Aviation and Mr Butson’s applications either to the tribunal or to the Federal Court. Obviously, when a party is aggrieved with an administrative decision of the authority they can seek review in the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. As I said, I am happy on notice to give you information about our legal costs in the tribunal proceedings. But in terms of the Federal Court proceedings, again commenced by those parties against CASA, we are not privy to Comcover’s legal expenditure.
Senator EGGLESTON: Your story is not quite what I have heard. I think you are resisting the damages claim. I would seek leave to table this letter.
CHAIR: Do you have further questions on those?
Senator EGGLESTON: No, I will not. I may put further questions on notice.
CHAIR: Thank you.

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

I urge anybody with similar stories that can help show these tactics are not isolated to write to Senator Eggleston.


Please e-mail [email protected]

Delusional!

[flyingfiend]

I imagine you are referring to the tactics of Butson and Polar?

The case history is here:
AustLII Results - title(civil aviation safety authority ) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinosrch.cgi?method=title;query=civil%20aviation%20safety%20 authority;meta=%2Fau;mask_path=au%2Fcases%2Fcth%2FFCA&offset=20)

It would appear that Butson and Polar have attempted to bring an action for damages against CASA and an action, including but not limited to, of misfeasance against various CASA officers.

There are questions of jurisdiction and questions of time elapsed since the AAT hearing from which these actions arise.

I fail to see where Polar has ever 'won'. Indeed, the last paragraph of the December 2011 hearing perhaps best summarises the action so far:


'The FASC ( amended statement of claim. i.e. what Butson and Polar rely on to support their various contentions. FF) pleads no cause of action other than those considered in these reasons. Accordingly, the whole of the FASC is struck out. There is nothing in the FASC, the evidence before the court, or the parties’ submissions that might discloses the existence of a cause of action beyond those already discussed. There is no proper basis to grant leave to re-plead. As Lindgren J said in White Industries (at 309 [47]: see [18] above), “[a] failure after ample opportunity to plead a reasonable cause of action may suggest that none exists and therefore that the applicant has no reasonable prospects of success”. This is just such a case. Having regard to the history of the pleading, the evidence, and the parties’ submissions, I am persuaded that Polar and Mr Butson have no reasonable prospect of successfully prosecuting the proceeding. Accordingly, I would give judgment for the respondents against the applicants pursuant to s 31A(2) of the Federal Court Act. I would make orders accordingly'.

Butson and Polar are now appealing this decision to the Full Bench of the Federal Court.

The case histories indicate that CASA has brought NO action against Butson or Polar Aviation other than the original enforcement action in 2004 that Butson et al applied to the AAT to be reviewed.

The AAT appears to have affirmed CASA's decision to cancel Butson's CP approval and to have set aside the decision to cancel Polar's AOC. The AOC was issued with conditions including, it seems, with a prohibition on some of Butson's activities.

Butson's contention in the Senator's letter that CASA is pursuing him is not supported by the case records. In fact, quite the opposite is true. Every time Butson and Polar have pursued CASA, they have been unsuccessful which has lead to them applying for leave to appeal, which up to now has been granted.

This appeal to the Full Bench is most probably the last throw of the dice for Butson and Polar.

Interesting that the Senator has tabled that letter into Hansard, humm...

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

Flying fiend You appear to hav a lot of information on this case and a strong supporter of casa? Please read this paragraph.

Senator EGGLESTON: Is it not the case that Polar Aviation’s operating licences were restored and the case against you was for damages, for loss of income and other factors? I am not so much interested in the legal issues, which of course at the moment are sub judice; I am very interested in the total cost of the legal cases which CASA has brought against this small company over the last eight years.

It appears to be more about how casa have treated this person and the company and how the power of a government department was used against him that has the senator concerned.

[Sunfish]

Let me get this straight. The owner of Polar Air has made enough money to pay for Lawyers to take his case to the highest court in the land and he is "delusional"?

We all know that laws and regulations can and are applied very selectively when a public servant feels like it. The CASA regulations, being deliberately vague and self referential, are an open invitation to temptation for an annoyed public servant.

What CASA appears to have successfully argued is that its actions were legal. The question however is a little wider than that.

It appears that the only long term solution is separation of regulation from enforcement.

[Sarcs]

Interesting to note how similar FF's post sounds to the regulator's CLO Ana'stasi' (see he has even got it in his name), is that a lawyer thing or is FF maybe AA's script writer?:= Now there's a rumour!:ok:

Mr Anastasi: By way of background it is correct that in 2005 CASA cancelled Mr Butson's chief pilot approval and the air operator's certificate of Polar Aviation. There was a subsequent hearing of the AAT. In the course of that hearing the matters were resolved by consent between the parties and that resulted in the decision to cancel Mr Butson's chief pilot approval being affirmed and the decision to cancel Polar Aviation's air operator's certificate being set aside.
Subsequent to that, Polar Aviation and Mr Butson commenced legal proceedings against CASA and various of its officers in the Federal Court of Australia; that is, his action against CASA. In that regard, on 30 September 2011, the Federal Court dismissed his statement of claim in its entirety. Mr Butson and Polar Aviation have now appealed that judgment to the Full Court of the Federal Court of Australia and, as I said, that is his action against CASA. It is a claim for damages against CASA. The court has dismissed his claim—so I will stop there.

[Kharon]

HmHb - It appears to be more about how casa have treated this person and the company and how the power of a government department was used against him that has the senator concerned. That is the point.

Responses to the Senate, the 'Prune Gate' petition and survey have provided an ugly snapshot of the CASA methodology of dealing with what they perceive as 'deep and meaningful' safety issues. Further it has presented some disturbing side issues. Some of which, I and the other "Editors" of the survey believe require Judicial investigation, independent of the incumbent Government.

Purely based against research of publicly available documentation there are some serious issues which reflect the absolute arrogance, incompetence and mendacity of this publicly funded department.

The heartbreak is that despite all the blood, sweat and tears they have brought down on the industry, there has not been one tangible safety benefit delivered to the Australian traveling public. Lot's of meaningless spin to fool the Senators (Bless 'em), lots of shiny pointless twaddle, but measurable safety related outcomes.
Macbeth - "That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing".I say no more messing about with the Senate, they have proven to be every bit as inept as the department they rely on. It is time for the Australian public to be told exactly what is responsible for their safety when they travel with what remains of the Aviation industry.

Selah.

[004wercras]

Never ceases to amaze me how the little guys continue to be persecuted, meanwhile bigger operators (like ours worth 270 million of taxpayers solid green) with government contracts or contacts get away with illegal practises which would normally draw a sacrificial burning of an AOC!:ok:
It brings back memories of the 'Untouchables', oh the hypocrisy of this regulator!:rolleyes:
Sadly when one of our 2000 hr 'HOFO' approved wonders puts one in the drink all the gestapo will say "is that it must of been 'pilot error'", then the ATSB will do a study on the risks of special mission ops and issue half a dozen 'Safety Recommendations' to the CASA. The CASA will then stall for a couple of years, wait till it's all blown over and then discretely give the ATSB the 'bird'.
Sheesh this country has gone to the dogs! :ugh:

[gobbledock]

Sarcs, Pure gold mate, ditto !!

Interesting to note how similar FF's post sounds to the regulator's CLO Ana'stasi' (see he has even got it in his name), is that a lawyer thing or is FF maybe AA's script writer?:= Now there's a rumour!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


But of course FF's interest is merely as a 'spectator' from the balconies who just happens to be interested in aviation legal tussles, and he just happens to know a lot of detail about specific cases in which on each occasion he backs up the Regulator!! Yes yes yes, interesting indeed.

[Kharon]

Available - CASA v Phelan thread, it's all numbers (votes) game now.

The latest Phelan offerings are good reading for those intertested.

Job done - paperwork complete- Thanks to all x 1500. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif :D

[aroa]

So CASA cant/wont actually say what the legal costs incurred re Butson are, or re ComCover see ref A Anustasi.
Having sent an Invoice to the AWI clowns that were responsible for a failed /fraudulent case against me (unpaid), and CASA having denied its Model Litgant Obligations, also to pay, I will have to go to court for costs and etc.

I keep the AWIs updated with the ongoing invoice plus accruing interest.
Two of the buggers are no longer with CASA...and when I sent the Xmas update, one poor boy sent it home to Mummy.

So.. AA himself contacts me to say I mustn't, any communication must be to him, and in the event of a claim they will defend it. This is the same AA as above who advised previously,'no libility' and no MLO.!
The inference is that the EX employees still have the security of the CASA legal costs umbrella....and they (2) ARE NO LONGER are employed by CASA. WTF !
Methinks this bizare letter shows he is severely up himself, and then some.

On the local scene, site of the 'split in' incident that caused the failed case, a CASA wally has complained to others that CASA costs SO FAR...over nothing!!! have been in excess of $300,000.!!!

Which just goes to show that CASA piss up against the wall weekly,many times over the very small amount sought by this victim.

Costs re Butson, if I might extra-polar-ate, must be in the millions.!!
But Sshhh...dont mention the money. Plenty of taxpayers out there to fill the troughs.
I think a letter to the Minister for Finance is in order.

[gobbledock]

This weeks highlight for me was sitting down for a few beers this evening with a very astute and well connected Aviator. He has friends and enemies who reside within Fort Fumble. Anyway his new tactic has been to dump a massive amount or rumor, innuendo, a little truth, a touch more bull**** and some outlandish lies in the past few weeks into the laps of these incompetents who took the bait hook, line and RCA !! He was very cunning and lined a few of the right people up superbly.
The buffoons have been surveilling, planning, traveling and having meetings about what has filtered through to them ever since. While this was and still is taking place my mate managed to, a) waste a heap of their time, b) stitch up one inspector particularly, and c) pull of a few sneaky moves of his own while the regulator was distracted and make a couple of really good bonus dollars!
Add to that he spread a sh#tload of truth, half truths, complete lies and fantasy all rolled into one and he even had the regulator fighting among themselves internally!!!

In fact I heard that as a result of what CASA thought they were receiving through 'intel' Terry Farckwitson pushed through a new internal procedure! Oh dear, what would Skull and Anustasi be thinking?

Anyway it sounds like loads a fun and we should all try it.
Absolutely superb, my guess from what I hear is that Fort Fumble got well and truly got 'punked' !!!!

[neville_nobody]

Never ceases to amaze me how the little guys continue to be persecuted, meanwhile bigger operators (like ours worth 270 million of taxpayers solid green) with government contracts or contacts get away with illegal practises which would normally draw a sacrificial burning of an AOC!

Because CASA know that if they take on a big fish it will automatically go to court and big companies will usually push to the high court on appeal if required. This would take alot of money and resources out of CASA unless the case was black and white.

GA operators don't have the money or resources for such legal war so they usually just cave in and are then at the mercy of CASA's ever changing whims.

[Pass-A-Frozzo]

This would take alot (sic) of money and resources out of CASA

Seriously... A private company would consider this.. A government agency would not.

If you have to ask why..... :ugh:

[Kharon]

Is a little like Oliver asking for more, you miss out and probably get a flogging at the same time for your troubles.

It's tempting to blame industry apathy, but that ain't fair, it's tough enough as it is without having the 'heavy mob' on your case.

PAF - If you have to ask why....


Duke Senior:
Sweet are the uses of adversity,
Which, like the toad, ugly and venomous,
Wears yet a precious jewel in his head;
And this our life, exempt from public haunt,
Finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks,
Sermons in stones, and good in every thing.
As You Like It Act 2, scene 1, 12–17

About say's it all really.

[Sarcs]

I'm surprised the last couple of posts haven't woken 'old mate' flyingfiend from his slumber!:rolleyes:

Or maybe he is having dinner with Greg (CEO of ASA) at the 'Ottoman Cuisine restaurant' at a $1000 a pop, FFS :\

[gobbledock]

I'm surprised the last couple of posts haven't woken 'old
mate' flyingfiend from his slumber!:rolleyes:
I believe he has gone to ground ever since his real identity has come close to being revealed! Isn't that correct Flyingfool? Perhaps your taunts about Fed police investigations has now put you in the spotlight?

Or maybe he is having dinner with Greg (CEO of ASA) at the
'Ottoman Cuisine restaurant' at a $1000 a pop, FFS http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wibble.gif
Or perhaps attending an aviation law conference in NZ?

[Sarcs]

Or perhaps attending an aviation law conference in NZ? Yep that's probably closer to the truth:ugh:.

Right about now his biggest decision is when it would be politically correct to slip from a cino to a nice chilled NZ sav blanc!:mad::(