Red Arrows facing 'major changes', says aviation expert

[Fox Four]

'Leading industry magazine Jane's Defence Weekly said propellor-driven or even frontline planes like the Typhoon might be used.

It also predicted cuts in defence spending could affect the team.'

And this is news?

BBC News - Red Arrows facing 'major changes', says aviation expert (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15819469)

FF

[The Blue Parrot]

It won't be a Tornado Display Team, they'll need a fleet of 90 to get 9 serviceable once a season!:oh:

[Mach Two]

Well, Fox Four, this discussion has been going on for years in one form or another. The Arrows have always been a bit of a sacred cow, ending up getting whatever they say they want because they are such good advertising for the RAF and British industry.

Regarding the replacement jet trainer, I would say we've seen this all before. Nothing will happen until it's almost too late, Hawk T1 gets extended, new buy comes along late. I would imagine that we will decide to go for a jet because of the handling characteristics of Typhoon , Tornado (for a while) and the futue jumping bean (if it ever comes). The Arrows will end up being equipped from that inventory.

A Tucano (or it's repalcement or similar) just wouldn't cut it. What image do we need to promote? The front line used to do stuff like this, but that was in Hunters when pilots were getting a hundred hours a month and we had more aircraft than we could shake a stick at. The Reds are the best in the world (can't believe I just said that) because of the hours of dedicated practice they get and having dedicated jets - so no competition between sqn training, QRA, ops, display flying, etc.

Not sure how we man (or woman) them now, though. The Harrier boys always used to insist that they were the only people that could possibly do the job!:cool:

[grandfer]

Better hide about 20 Harriers before they're given away to the USMC , what a brilliant display team 9 Harriers would make ! Fit a smoke system & you're away !:eek::hmm:

[TURIN]

Fit a smoke system & you're away !

I thought they already had one, a Pegasus. :}

[grandfer]

Yes well , something to make it into pretty colours .:ok:

[cazatou]

grandfer

Be careful - you will only wake up WEBF again.

[grandfer]

I'm willing to take that chance .:ouch::eek::mad:

[old-timer]

Props ? - how about a 9 ship Spit' team :D

Personally I think a 9 ship Harrier team would be a top idea - VIFF - GO !
Be great to see :D
(just need to resurrect the Harriers to operational status again but that would require common sense so stand down that plan :sad:)

[Mach Two]

Contract it all out to Red Bull.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I organised our BFTS grad flypast in 1986. We got:
4 Harriers, who did a formation "bow"
2 lightnings doing their square turn homesick angel routine
a phantom
a JP display
and a recce Jaguar that took pics for us.

You wouldn't get those numbers or variety at an airshow now.:sad:

I give the arrows 5 years in this financial climate:{

[APG63]

Been giving them "5 years in this financial climate" for yonks now. It all gets so political when you try to raise it as a point. For years I was answering those stupid bean counters' demands to "Justify the existance of 100 Sqn", "Justisfy two squadrons at Valley", etc. If I even tried to reply that the answer's bleedin' obvious and why don't you ever question the Reds, I used to get shot at dawn. Happened to me three times!

[cazatou]

Fox3

Its only 4 years to the Red Arrows 50th Anniversary - they first performed in 1965.

[Wander00]

In that case let us hope the RAF marks the Golden Jubilee - for the Silver 25th the Service declined and the Trustees of the Red Arrows Trust, with the magnificent support of RAF Scampton, organised the event.

[Red Line Entry]

why don't you ever question the Reds

The Reds have had a savings option run against them every Planning Round for at least the last 4 years - they've survived every time.

[DX Wombat]

By the sound of things they will end up with one of these:
http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1067151M.jpg
I flew this one and it was a lovely aircraft to fly - until someone planted it upside down in a field. :{
PS, there is nothing wrong with a C152 Aerobat - just it doesn't quite fit in with the image of the Red Arrows. :(

[SASless]

The Reds are the best in the world (can't believe I just said that) because of the hours of dedicated practice they get and having dedicated jets - so no competition between sqn training, QRA, ops, display flying, etc.


I cannot believe you said that either......they are darn good....but "best"?

As good as any without a doubt....but first place gets a bit hard to claim as there is a lot of difference between the Top Place Teams.

When the Angels and T-Birds were flying Phantoms....now that was impressive! The wee tiny things the Reds sport about in....well...well....they are cute aren't they!

[Pontius Navigator]

I used to get shot at dawn. Happened to me three times!

And they missed every time, wow!

[Pontius Navigator]

Regarding the replacement jet trainer, I would say we've seen this all before. Nothing will happen until it's almost too late, Hawk T1 gets extended, new buy comes along late. I would imagine that we will decide to go for a jet because of the handling characteristics of Typhoon , Tornado (for a while) and the futue jumping bean (if it ever comes). The Arrows will end up being equipped from that inventory.

Are you suggesting heavy metal? If so it would probably only be a pair.

[cazatou]

When I were a Lad we had the following Teams:-

1 FTS - Gin Four

2 FTS - Vipers

3 FTS - Gemini Pair

6 FTS - Cocks O' the North

RAFCAW- Macaws

RAF College - Poachers
Cranwell

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Cazatou - I know, hence 5 years.
50th and final year..... has a ring to it that will, sadly, help.

C152 aerobat is a tin box. It's safe, reliable and above all cheap. I've taught students happily in them. I've even flown one from Arizona to Israel without a single problem.
..but it's still a tin box and doesn't belong at an airshow.

[Green Flash]

caz, when we were lads we had an Airforce too ......

[Green Flash]

Actually, does anyone else feel a little uneasy discussing this subject, given the year that the Reds have just had? Think I'll keep my own counsel for a while.

[FATTER GATOR]

"It will either be a propellor-driven plane - the RAF is about to buy some to do a different part of training for their student pilots "

Which prop aircraft are we about to buy??:confused:

[jamesdevice]

why not use the Taranis? Should be possible to preprogram the complete display

[whowhenwhy]

PFI with assistance from the F&C office but flown by Service aircrew.

[Auster Fan]

.....and The Linton Blades and Red Pelicans...

[BEagle]

Which prop aircraft are we about to buy??

PC-21









.

[Bill Macgillivray]

"Yellowjacks" !!!:ok::ok::ok::ok:

[DX Wombat]

Oh dear Fox3 please tell me you didn't think I was being serious. I love the C152 because it is the only aircraft apart from the DA40 TDi Diamond Star (which is too expensive) in which I can reach all the controls and have full & free movement. I don't for one minute imagine that the Red Arrows would want to fly it but it would be good fun to see. :E I was making a statement about all the economies which are required.

[coffindodger]

I think an idea that was put forward yesterday is a good one . As a replacement for the hawk , bring back the Harrier. !!!! The new Reds line up a fleet of Harriers.

[technophobe]

"There will not be a factory in the UK which makes jet trainer aircraft, which is a big problem for a display team which is supposed to showcase British industry to the world."

This statement in the article has got me a little confused. I thought Hawk 128/T2 was the selected replacement for Hawk T1 and that it was UK manufactured? The further implication in the article, that the new prop driven trainers (I assume Tucano replacement) would be British made is also confusing - who is making a BFT ac in the UK that is likely to be selected? I thought Pilatus were looking the most likely - they are Swiss! Seems difficult to explain a change away from Hawk based on nationality when there is no firm alternative.

Can't imagine we'll see red Typhoons any time soon, though I suppose it would fit the dumbing down model to have a frontline trained four-ship instead of the specialist 9 we have now - but still probably more expensive per fg hr.

[oldmansquipper]

To my certain knowledge disbanding the Reds was a "planning" consideration every year from 1985 to 2001!

Always generated a flutter in the air staff dove coot and lots of nugatory lower level staff work......(but not much else):ugh:

[oldmansquipper]

Ah yes...The Yellow Jacks ....Lovely team!

Heres a thought......Perhaps there are enough Gnats on the civil register to provide an aerobatic team? Flown by redundant fast jet jock pilots and acting as "Technical consultants on aerobatic teams" to the MOD?

£600 million should cover it

I`ll get my coat.....

[Meldrew]

As Technophobe said, why wasn't T2 mentioned as the replacement for T1.......Anybody??

[Mach Two]

Thing is, who needs a jet with all that kit in it just to do a few loops and a bit of cunning stuntery? When all the T1s go out of service just canibalize them for parts and keep, let's say, 12 of them going. No need for heavy metal. Oh, and with sponsorship we could make them self-funding.

[Mach Two]

SASless, I take your point about the "best". Think I got carried away there. Yes, they are darn good.

Now the Blue Angels in F4s. Very tight formation with 12 inches or less between wingtips. But, on average, they used to lose a crew per year.

Also, point taken about discussing this with the year the Reds have had, Green Flash. But I think this is a completely separate issue. We're talking about a future beyond the tours of the current guys. That said, you are right, we sould be careful what we say.

[Basil]

GF (& M2),
Actually, does anyone else feel a little uneasy discussing this subject, given the year that the Reds have just had? Think I'll keep my own counsel for a while.
My intro to OCU was overhearing conversation which ended:
"Anaemic looking guy? Well, he's f'kin' anaemic now all right!"
So no need to be too precious about the mil. We don't (didn't) mind, although now, as an older guy with a friend who has a son in Afghanistan, I guess the families may be a bit more sensitive than the chaps.

[Basil]

M2,
Wasn't it the Angels who got a wigging for slightly exceeding their briefed limits at a ball game recently? Very good pass though :ok:

[Mach Two]

Basil,

Not for the first time!!!!

Here's fun. [High Quality] Blue Angels - censored, no Van Halen Dreams - YouTube. But as a serious point, part of their cool is the fact that they fly a well-recognised front-line fighter, not a trainer. So that counts the Harrier out, I guess. :p

[oldmansquipper]

:D
Nice .....

[spekesoftly]

Now the Blue Angels in F4s..........I saw them only once, at Hucknall in 1973. Very impressive display of close low-level formation flying, and the noise was deafening. Contrast the Red Arrows display immediately afterwards, and their much smaller and quieter Gnats didn't quite engage the spectators on this occasion. Many people were already leaving, seemingly unaware that the Reds were displaying!

[BossEyed]

As Technophobe said, why wasn't T2 mentioned as the replacement for T1.......Anybody??

Hawk T1 procurement: 176 ordered (and delivered).

Hawk T2 procurement: 28 ordered.

So the answer is, as always these days, "money".

[Old Photo.Fanatic]

Slight thread drift,

Talking of past display teams,I vote for the USAF Europe team in the 50s/60s
the "Skyblazers" with five F100 Super Sabres tearing the place up.

Lots of low level high speed passes/manouvers with full afterburners.

The speciallity being the Diamond four pass with wheels down, then with an exagerated very long afterburner flame as they pulled up.The single aircraft would then do a high speed low pass under the diamond four with same long flame afterburner.
This was achieved by injecting neat fuel into the full afterburner exhaust, the flame was about 8-10 meters long.
You had to be there, those were the days.

OPF

[Pontius Navigator]

At the Waddo airshow one year there was a number of visiting units including some FAF Mirage. They were asked if they could display and they agreed.

Now I have no idea if they were an authorised and practiced display but they did a very tight display as a pair.

A pair of heavies made the singleton Tornadoes etc look distinctly tame.

Very true, a front line aircraft beats a trainer any day no matter how 'pretty' the latter is. Of course Simon's circus beat the lot, even 16 Hunters.

[APG63]

Sea Vixens?

[spekesoftly]

Yes, Vixen MkIIs for Simon's Sircus, and Mk1s for Fred's Five.

[Pontius Navigator]

IIRC Sea Vixen and Buccaneer.

[TEEEJ]

PN,
It would have been the Mirage F1 pair display. The French also operated Jaguars in a pair display.

MIRAGE F1 DUO DISPLAY RAF WADDINGTON 1997 HI8 - YouTube

Mirage F1 pair from the cockpit

Hommage aux Voltige Victor - YouTube

Jaguar pair display

Sepecat Jaguar "Thinking Outside The Box". - YouTube

[Mach Two]

Well, well. Absolutely right, PN. Look what I found here. Click on the little movie icon to see video of them at Farnboro' in '68.

Sea Vixen. Royal Navy. Carrier Jet. - Sea Vixen Display Teams > "Simons Sircus" (http://www.seavixen.org/index.cfm?fa=contentGeneric.cwlaojpovqekkrmt&pageId=91425)

[cazatou]

PN

The 22 Hunter Loop by 111 Squadron (with a little help from their Friends) at the 1958 Farnborough Air Show?

[grandfer]

:ok:What about the 36 Hunter Diamond flown at Chivenor around 1974 (?):ok:

[NutLoose]

101 Sqn used to do a superb vc10 display with I think 4, paint them red :E
the noise alone would make you go weak at the knees.... Though the sim didn't like it if you tried to loop it, so I doubt the ten would either...

[harrier]

Nothing much has changed then. In the mid 60s we sometimes struggled to get two or three Hunter FGA9s ready for flight first thing in the morning. That was out of a squadron of 19 aircraft.

There were only two occasions that I recall when we got all 19 aircraft out of the hangar at the same time.

One was when we stopped all flying for a number of days so that we could get 18 airborne for a flypast to celebrate our 50th anniversary. The 19th aircraft, Delta, was in the line up for the photos, but had to have its rudder tied on with string. Some would say that Delta still flew in the flypast as there was some part of it flying in all the other 18.

The other time when there was some threat during Indonesian Confrontation, when all the aircraft were grounded so as they would not go US. But at that time they were not on the line, they were dispersed all over Tengah.:O

[Courtney Mil]

And the Hunters didn't get any more serviceable as they got older! But, wasn't that a great ac to fly, Harrier? I only flew it when holding after Brawdy, but it's a real thoroughbred. Solution, just buy more airframes or do aircrew turnrounds.

[Pontius Navigator]

TEEJ< thank you. I didn't want to guess the type. << on second thoughts it was likely '95 as I had left Waddo in '96.

Mach Two, thank you for that. I missed it myself as I was also at Farnborough in '68 the year an Atlantic went into the sheds on the north side. We almost parked a Hurri in the shed as well.

Cazou, I will grant you 22 Avons and see you 12 Avons and 10 Gyrons but for heavy metal the RN takes it.

[spekesoftly]

see you 12 Avons and 10 Gyrons Should that read 12 Avons and 10 Speys?

("Simons Sircus" Sea Vixens displaying with the "Phoenix Five" Buccaneer S2s) :8

[Widger]

Mach 2....thank you.........Sob!

[Pontius Navigator]

809 re-formed in 1966 under the command of Lt Cdr Lyn Middleton and was now equipped with the Rolls-Royce Spey-powered Buccaneer S Mk2

OK, give you that although the S1 was still in service until 1970.

[OafOrfUxAche]

why wasn't T2 mentioned as the replacement for T1


Because it's overpriced, under-performing and unwanted?

[Bob Viking]

Says who?!
You must be an expert on the matter.
BV:rolleyes:

[NutLoose]

They could muster a team from the Jags held at Cosford, it would be a sight to behold, 9 Jags flat out struggling to hold a credible formation as they ran out of puff at the top of the loop. :E

[newt]

So you have a lot of experience doing Jag aero's Nutloose?

I thought not!!:ugh:

[APG63]

Nutloose. Haven't seen any Jag bashing in years. :ok:

[philrigger]

;)

Nine Jags off the ground at one time - six of them on jacks !!!!!!

Phil.

[Fox Four]

Having been away and thus unable to comment, I think the point of my post has been missed?

Why does the BBC have to raise this dull issue again, and such a short time after the latest tragedy?

Forget the bureaucracy that plagues the Air Force, the Reds show the RAF as it is, a group of pretty special people, doing a pretty different job, in a pretty exceptional way. It also gives an insight into life on an operational squadron. People are lost, and continue to be, Glen Kinglas, Bournemouth, Scampton etc.

Why would the media want to put the team under such pressure after such a **** year?

FF

[Fox Four]

To be honest, I know why......

[Flyingblind]

Thanks for the clip Mach Two,

Amazing sight, would love to see that film converted to colour HD. The sight of the Bucc's and Sea Vixens doing their thing with the final follow through of F4's, very impressive.

The sound of those aircraft take me back to my days growing up around RNAS Lee on Solent.

[DummyRun]

Why not just paint 9 red hawks on the underside of the support C-130, perfect formation, albeit only one,no need for expensive training and maintenance etc, self-supporting, save a fortune. I'll claim my Gem and get my coat......

[Mach Two]

Good night, DummyRun!!

Yes, we all know why, FF, but your question is still valid. It does raise an interesting question, though, about what future generations of Reds pilots will fly (as we've been discussing). Hopefully the current guys and girl shouldn't feel too pressured by this as the next hurdle should come after their tours. Or does someone out there know otherwise?

As a note, it's good to see the raf.mod.uk Reds webpages are all broken at the moment. At a time when there's a need for a strong message.

Mach Two.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Web pages broken? Not on my net.

[Mach Two]

You're right, I can see them too now. Maybe they were updating or something.

[ORAC]

Hmmm, let's do a bit of lateral thinking....... and I'm not talking about the L-39s....... VTOL as well.... :p:p

SH-LEYKzXDg

[Mach Two]

I'm going to get me one of those. 8 more join in and we've got ourselve a team!! :cool:

[teeteringhead]

Cannibalise the remaining T1s after OSD to keep 10 (+ a couple spares/attrition reserves) flying 'til 2018 - for RAF Centenary fly past and farewell to the Reds.

No replacement thereafter - justification always quoted was "flying the flag", well there ain't nothing British no more! 9 or 10 top rank FJ peeps out of front line cockpits no longer sends right message for these days.

But of course, the RAF's got to make it to 2018 yet .....

.... you heard it here first!

[Mach Two]

Teetering head. Well, almost 'here first'. You missed my Post #36 on page 2:

When all the T1s go out of service just canibalize them for parts and keep, let's say, 12 of them going. No need for heavy metal. Oh, and with sponsorship we could make them self-funding.

But, if two of us thought of it, it must ba good idea!!! :ok:

[Madbob]

M2 and TH

Its what the Snowbirds have been doing for years. Their CT-114s went out of service as trainers yonks ago and yet they soldier on as mounts for the RCAF aerobatic team.

The Tutor was not a bad trainer, a bit like a Mk5 JP on streoids! It also had long legs when going X-country which is useful in a place like Canada. However, its bang seat left a lot to be desired......even compared with the Mk 4 zero/90 seat in the JP.

I wonder, what (and when) will be the Snowbirds replacement?

MB

[Courtney Mil]

Well, perhaps expand their plan and sell them a few old Hawks too. I wonder what the FI position is with them now. Anyone here know?

[NutLoose]

Only done aeros once in a Jag Newt :8

Here was the planned upgrade it needed...

http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/WTF/rocket-man.jpg

:E


The way the UK is going, I doubt we will soon be able to fund a formation of......

http://blog.yoc2008.com/chainchange/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/11.jpg

:(

[teeteringhead]

Mach 2 my apologies! Must have missed yours but then I am trying to read this lot on the handheld from somewhere hot! Should have gone to Sp€cs@v€rs!

The Centenary flypast idea is not entirely original either. An assumption was run a little while ago on something like "Extend small number of T Mk 1s to OSD of 2018" that had me putting 2 & 2 together .......

[Halton Brat]

The picture of the chap with the flaming bum is a must for the caption contest, methinks..........

HB

[Mach Two]

To be honest, Teeteringhead, it's hard to see what else we can do. In an air force the size of ours, we'll never use front-line types and the new trainers will either be props or have too much kit in them, which would be a waste.

M2

I note you can use the euro symbol on your keybpard. No one can use the euro symbol on a keyboard!!! :)

[pr00ne]

teetering head,

"well there ain't nothing British no more"

What? Apart from the obvious and rather silly double negative this giving the exact opposite meaning to that which I am sure you intended, what on earth does a comment like that actually mean?

So you think there is nothing British any more? Sometimes I wonder what planet some of you people actually occupy...

[HTB]

M2 - get used to it, you may need to calculate your pay in the currency one day. The easy short cut is 'alt gr 4' (the alt gr key is just to the right of the space ba,r and a 4 from the top row please...) €

Mister B

[Mach Two]

Thanks, HTB.

pr00ne, did you have a bad night or are you always this angry?

M2

[teeteringhead]

pr00ne

Irony - like brassy, only made of iron not brass (with apologies to Baldrick).

What one was attempting to convey was the fact that a wholly UK manufactured aircraft suitable for military formation flying (and with possible export sales potential) would seem unlikely to be available and/or affordable within foreseeable timescales.

The faux vernacular was meant to inject a little lightness, and hardly deserves the ad hominem attack.

Hopefully (more humour - I am aware that the adjectival use is a solecism) my use of three languages in this response might just convince you that I do know a double (triple?) negative when I see one, and would not dream of using such a construction other than for comic effect.

You're not American by any chance, are you ??

Or perhaps an ISS tutor? No - then you would have known that "which planet" is correct rather than "what planet".

[Tourist]

Oooooooh, look at you Mr Teeter:ok:

[Archimedes]

The picture of the chap with the flaming bum is a must for the caption contest, methinks..........

HB

Or a Royal Marines recruitment poster.