Is there REALLY a shortage of LAE's?

[Kengineer-130]

I keep hearing the rumour that there is a shortage of LAE's, and that it is a massivley ageing industry, but do you think there is any truth to it, or just the old jungle drums?

Do you think Engineers will ever be held in the same esteem that pilots are, and paid as such?

Discuss!

[SeldomFixit]

Yes there is a shortage of LA E's who are experienced, well qualified and who can justify being paid an LAE wage.
Yes it is an aging industry, many retiring and not being replaced with like for like, experience etc wise.
Should an LAE be paid the same as a Pilot ? no - totally different skill set and whilst certifying for safe and correct maintenance, an LAE will never have the responsibility level of a Pilot.
Should an LAE have the same respect as a Pilot ? That is something both have to earn - neither receives it as a right and many in both trades/professions are simply not worthy.
Not to worry however - the "A" License will address any concerns the maintenance side of the industry may have as will the 200 hour cadet on the Piloting side.........:ugh:

[grounded27]

Should an LAE be paid the same as a Pilot ? no - totally different skill set and whilst certifying for safe and correct maintenance, an LAE will never have the responsibility level of a Pilot.
Should an LAE have the same respect as a Pilot ? That is something both have to earn - neither receives it as a right and many in both trades/professions are simply not worthy.


Pilot's have many levels of experience. I for one believe than an LAE/AMT with through systems knowledge on the same often (usually) more airframes than the equivalent pilot does holds a rite to the same pay. We often do start out at the same pay level but with 10 years experience fall short.

Our skill set becomes defined, hardened as does a pilots. We learn more and more quickly how to define and resolve a problem just as pilots do. We are challenged with new technology, just as pilots do. We are responsible for the aircraft we maintain just as pilots are that fly them responsibly.

We follow with pride the same manuals that are issued by an aircraft MFGR.

We call an aircraft airworthy, based on our skill set and experience, a pilot operates that aircraft safely based on our JUDGMENT!

[73NGEng]

Hi
Regarding the shortage of engineers problem: Yes I believe there is a shortage. We in the FR brigade are seeing a shortage in the winter months and once the summer schedule kicks back in there is expected to be a severe lack of engineers experienced or not.

Regarding the experience shortage: I absolutely agree. The experience pool is being severely diluted due to commercial constraints. Since the companies cannot get the better more experienced guys they are now taking anything that has the required pieces of paper just to make sure all the relevant boxes are ticked.

Regarding the responsibility of pilots and engineers: I absolutely understand that a pilot (and more specifically a captain) has a large responsibility but I would not play down the responsibilities of a certifying engineer especially when I consider that on any given night I personally will sign off up to 5 aircraft and in doing so I state that any maintenance I have carried out that night, be it routine inspection or heavy complex unscheduled work is carried out in a safe and satisfactory manner which will permit those 5 aircraft to fly about 5000 people safely through the sky for a day. That to me is no small responsibility and I would like to see engineers as a body recognized for it.

[Topspotter]

There sure as hell aint a shortage in the UK, the place is awash with them which is why the hourly rate today is little more than it was in the mid nineties, i work for a recruiting company and we have never had so many engineers looking for work on our books.

[toolowtoofast]

There sure as hell aint a shortage in the UK, the place is awash with them which is why the hourly rate today is little more than it was in the mid nineties, i work for a recruiting company and we have never had so many engineers looking for work on our books.

Yes but how many of those engineers are actually out of work at the moment? There are 7 licenced guys at my place of employment, and 5 of those are currently actively looking elsewhere, but it's not like they are unemployed right now. It's just shifting experience - not fresh legs.

[BeeBopp]

Anyone who thinks certifying engineers have less responsibility than pilots or managers and directors for that matter should check out the aftermath of the Tun-inter and Helios crashes.

[greatwhitehunter]

There certainly is a shortage of capable, experienced b licenced engineers. And where I am the majority are up for retirement in 5 to 7 years.

I say competent because all too many of the people I see are not very competent. Sadly that goes in spades for B2 holders, (yes I'm a B2). With the shortage some very poor performers get a job and frankly the EASA licencing system does not help. Many of the new EASA B2 holders slavishly follow the FIM and seem incapable of independant thought. Couple this with inexperience and you do not get the level of safety I'd like to see. I don't know it all by a long chalk but I do find some of the people about now a worry.

OK politically incorrect and ' it was better in my day etc' but that's my considered view based on my everyday experiences. Anyway I should be out of it soon hopefully leaving a space for a new boy to fill.

For those of you considering it as a career, it takes effort but it's worth it. There is a drive to replace as many B licence holders with A licence holders so there will probably be fewer B positions in future. It's a worthwhile job deserving of more respect than it gets. I've had over 40 years of interest and some great fun interspersed with the odd moment of horror but I'll be glad to go. Too many idiot managers with no operational experience and who make piss poor decisions about nowadays.

Ah got that off my chest feel much better now:E

[Tempsford]

There may be a glut of Engineers although I would be surprised if that is the case when you ask another question. That question is ' How many top notch, well qualified, experienced Engineers (Techs and Mechs) are on the market?'.
I have had just over 3500 CV from all over the world (literally)in the past year for Tech/Mech positions and have been fortunate to recruit some very good, quality people, but I have noticed that there are a large number who lack sound, solid experience in depth and/or suitable qualifications. Don't let the perceived numbers of Engineers that are on the market cloud the quality and experience issue.

Temps.

[Kengineer-130]

One thing that sticks out to me, is that no one wants to help with your training.... I have over 12 years of large aircraft experience in the RAF a good apprenticeship & all of my B1 & B2 modules done, and recent heavy maint experience on Boeing & Airbus aircraft. I am just waiting on time now before I can apply for my licences.

But no one is interested in that, they want type rated experienced engineers NOW, not soon, but NOW! I can understand that they have a business need, but surley I must be a good bet for a company that needs to replace engineers in the future, as they get the chance to train me to their systems & build knowledge before being let loose certifying aircraft?

A colleague I recently worked with paid for his own type rating on a new licence, then a few days later was employed by an Irish airline :hmm: immediatley, with no training or anything other than the basic quality checks, as he had all the right bits of paper, and the bare minimum required type experience to be granted the licence!! He even admitted he was way out of his depth, but had to muddle through as the sole B1 engineer on shift!

What I see is a reflection of the pilot situation, where no one will take responsibiliy for training, then moan that standards are dropping :ugh:...

I just hope all the efforts so far will pay off in the long term, and engineers will start getting a bit more respect for the job they do!

[Topspotter]

Best thing that ever happened from our perspective is the vast number of licensed engineers being churned out by the part 147 training schools, its more like the American A and P system now , Licences are by all accounts so much easier to obtain than they were twenty years ago.

[boeing_eng]

As has been said many times on this forum, experience is everything in this game and to answer the original question, yes there is a shortage of well qualified and experienced LAE's .

For those starting out in the industry or making the transition from the military, expect a long but hopefully rewarding slog to attain the relevant type experience and company approvals. At the end of the day a license is nothing more than a piece of paper. Any reputable company is going to be looking very carefully at you as a person in conjunction with qualifications before allowing you to certify. The example quoted in a previous post of a newly licensed person being given an “instant” approval is a worrying example of how things can be “dumbed down” Any inexperienced LAE who is prepared to be put in this position needs to carefully remember his/her responsibilities (companies don’t give approval pay just to help you buy a flash car etc!!)

As for pay parity with pilots…..most B1/B2’s with a decent number of approvals should be earning at least what an experienced F/O earns in most UK airlines these days. Is it enough?....probably not (but unlike pilots, engineers have never managed to effectively act as group to enhance pay and conditions) This issue has never been helped by the fact that most bean-counter managers have a chip on their shoulder that most LAE’s earn more than them anyway!

[MATMAX]

boeing_eng , i agree with you and thats why , for the time being , i prefer to stay unemployed ...

[grounded27]

GWH

Many of the new EASA B2 holders slavishly follow the FIM and seem incapable of independent thought

Brother this is the largest trend I fight every day, it is almost a directive from MGT to follow the FIM despite your better knowledge. Our group is slowly folding to a "career over craft" mindset on this issue. A factory FIM assumes (the selling point to airlines) that an aircraft system will fail as they expect and are completely ignorant (especially on an older aircraft) that it can fail out of their box. Airlines sold this BS will feel the effects of the cost's of years of accumulated out of service aircraft that cost big bucks! SO frustrating but it is a hard battle for us. (see next comment)

Boeing-Eng...

As for pay parity with pilots…..most B1/B2’s with a decent number of approvals should be earning at least what an experienced F/O earns in most UK airlines these days. Is it enough?....probably not (but unlike pilots, engineers have never managed to effectively act as group to enhance pay and conditions) This issue has never been helped by the fact that most bean-counter managers have a chip on their shoulder that most LAE’s earn more than them anyway!

The bottom line is a cultural one. Aircraft maintenance is viewed as a LIABILITY, most proactive measures taken to reduce this are daft expecting after a MGT/bean counter review of some function is taken to improve reliability. Reliability in aircraft maintenance, on the ramp exists as a REACTIVE measure! Training and experience keeps the revenue flights flowing.


K-C130

What I see is a reflection of the pilot situation, where no one will take responsibly for training, then moan that standards are dropping

Our Pilots are becoming drones as they more than any of us are encouraged to follow policy and procedure with less latitude for decision based on human logic. Once again the MFGR sells airlines an aircraft where neither Pilots or the AMT/LAME should need to think for himself.

[tournesol]

Pilots and engineers are very different professions.
They are both equally indispensable members of the aviation community.
I don't know enough about the engineers or pilots shortages, so no commenst in that area.
As for the pay parity, I beleive it will always be that pilots, in particular captains get paid substantially more than engineers.
The main reasons are, the pilot is required to undergo medical check up and at a doctors's stroke, his/her carrier is in jeopardy. Annually or bi-annually the pilot has to pass an evaluation that could jeopardize the carrier if not passed succesfully. A multitude of other checks, such as line check, Dangerous goods, First aid, MNPS,etc.... have to be passed.
By nature of the job, pilots tend to spend more time away from home, while engineers even the ones working shifts tend to be more at home.
Engineers on the other hand do not have to go through such stringent evaluations after the initial qualifications, unless aquiring a new rating.
The idea that pilots have stronger unions, I am not convinced.
All airforces around the world and airlines from certain parts of the world where unions are not allowed, have similar parities betwen pilots and engineers.
It does not mean one is better than the other, it is just like a banana and an orange are both tasty and good for your health, but they are different.

[MATMAX]

Sorry Tournesol , i do not agree with you :
1/ the pilot is required to undergo medical check up : in France , thats the same and at the employer's discretion ... French Labour Law !
2/ pilots tend to spend more time away from home : did you hear already about Contractors and Relief Engineers ...?
Pilots are paid more because of the responsability of their job , problem is that , nowadays , when they are taking alone a decision , most of the time , they are f...ing up the stuff ...
Is it not a big responsability to sign off the release of an aircraft and this alone , whatever the temperature and climate could be , and i am not talking about some other human factors ?

[TURIN]

Priceless, MATMAX. Absolutely priceless.

No wonder you are unemployed. :ugh:

[grounded27]

The idea that pilots have stronger unions, I am not convinced.


The main reasons are, the pilot is required to undergo medical check up and at a doctors's stroke, his/her carrier is in jeopardy. Annually or bi-annually the pilot has to pass an evaluation that could jeopardize the carrier if not passed succesfully. A multitude of other checks, such as line check, Dangerous goods, First aid, MNPS,etc.... have to be passed.


I respectfully disagree.. Really, "hello my name is Captain Jones, I get paid 300k a year because I am forced to eat healthy and get some excercise".

I undergo countless hours of recurrent training and testing (DG is one of them) on 7 types of aircraft!!!

The largest mistake US A&P made was not to jump on the ALPA bandwagon when it was offered to technicians in it's early stages.

By nature of the job, pilots tend to spend more time away from home, while engineers even the ones working shifts tend to be more at home.


I know I do not represent the masses but 4-5 years of my career were spent living on an aircraft, had no problem with the being away from home part, hell I loved the odd chance to stay in a fine hotel in an exotic land. The problem was when the pilots went to the hotel after an 8 hour flight I still had several 8 hour legs to go before I saw a real bed.

A pilot with experience can usually pick and choose what he wants, some love inter continental flight, it is easy for a senior guy to usually give up a few dollars and fly a few short legs a day, be home for dinner and get plenty of time off.

[grounded27]

Back on topic, working on a 20 year career as an AMT I have been hearing that there is or will be a shortage of AMT's in the USA since I heard it first from my A&P school recruiter. Fact is I have never seen a shortage, quite the opposite, just layoff's.

[tournesol]

Mat Max,
I feel sad that you are offended by my opinion. What God given right do you have to disrespect other ppl opinions? The use of the f*** only shows your imaturity.
If you feel pilots have it easy, why don't you or didn't you become one? You know the answer to that. Some good LMEs have gone that way and have become very succesfull. But only the brave and confident ones made it.

I feel I have threaded on a very raw nerves with some LMEs, Technicians or Aircraft Mechanics. You are who you are because you chose to be one. You should be proud of what you do because your job is important in the aviation industry. Without you the airplanes will never become airborne.

The chips you are carying on your shoulders are only slowing you down. Grow up and smell the coffee. No where in the world an engineer/mechanic is going to be compared to a captain, no matter what the circusmstances are.

[greatwhitehunter]

I can't speak for the US but in the Uk there is shortage. There is an increasing number of EASA B licenced available, but nothing I have seen yet convinces me that the EASA licence equates with the old BCAR licence. As a consequence many who would have not 'cleared the bar' now get through. Yes there will be many capable people who will make fine engineers. However there are a lot of people who have learned to answer questions in a multi choice paper and who do not really understand systems or the principles underlying them. If I were an employer I'd want to see some proof of ability. Overall the level of competence is declining.

As to pilots and engineers. I would like to see engineers valued more not pilots less. The two roles are different but each in their own way requires hard work to maintain the required level of professionalism. The pilots are valued for many reasons not least of which of which is their strong unions. BALPA, I believe, sends in a queens Counsel to negotiate and although this costs it gets results. Also pilots do not usually criticise one another in public engineers queue up to do it.

One thing has always puzzled me though. Pilots are only interested in pilots and nobody else. I can accept this. Given though that even the best pilot cannot fly a seriously defective aircraft, (obviously depending on the nature of the defect), you would think then that they would keep at least half an eye on their engineering departments. This for their own safety. But they have no interest whatsoever, seems at best a bit short sighted. At this point I would like to make a nod to those honourable exceptions, few in number, who do take an interest. As to the rest, are you as smart as you think you are?

So there may be an adequate number of people holding bits of paper but there is a real shortage of 'the right stuff'.

As I said in a previous posting I'm glad to be out of it soon. I have seen it at it's best and I don't like the way it's going.

[greatwhitehunter]

Tournesol, I have just seen your last post. It may be a language thing, I certainly hope it is, but you come across as more than a little arrogant. Most of the engineers I know are very proud of what they do and do it because it's what they want to do.
Most of the crew I meet respect their engineers and treat them accordingly,(not withstanding the point I made earlier).

[tournesol]

Greatwhitehunter,
I have never been disrespecfull to anyone because of their profession, race religion, sex orientation or skin color.
Funny enough I happen to have a number of LMEs friends that I respect and admire their skills.
The only ppl I have a problem, are the ones who start bitching about others.
Should the LMEs get better wages? I will be the one to fight for their cause.
Should they start compare their status to pilots? NOOOO. The two professions are not comparable.
That is MY OPINION and I am entitled to it. I will always respect your views even when they are different from mine. That is what make life interesting.

[grounded27]

Also pilots do not usually criticize one another in public engineers queue up to do it.

man you nailed it on the head, I am happy to be with a group who does not do this much but as I referenced before having experience as a flight mech I have seen 2 grown men act like children in the cockpit to go as far as to say endangered our lives slapping each other on final yet walk off the aircraft looking like dignified professionals. This was an extreme experience but the truth is those guys do a good job of not airing their dirty laundry and maintain a wonderful public image.

I have seen AMT's on the other hand brag about themselves or complain about others (usually a combination of both) in front of everyone, esp MGT looking for a leg up. Hell I now spend less energy fixing aircraft and more energy working on my self image for the betterment of the craft. I do not brag when I find a 3 month old smoking gun, I do not talk about the people I work with when they screw up. I do always refer to the person(s) I am working with as us, "we fixed it". I do give praise any chance I can "we had been working this pig for 12 hours and Johnny here found wire XXX shorted at this location"

Having said all that I really wish there were more AMT's/LAME's out their like me!!!!!:D

[greatwhitehunter]

Tournesol,
Nowhere in my posts have I said that pilots and engineers should receive the same renumeration. My concern is the reduction in quality and competence affecting maintenance which is partly related to cost cutting and partly to the pay and conditions offered to new engineers. I would not want to see aircraft flying with a reduced safety margin. What pilots earn is their business and none of mine.

You are fully entitled to your opinions and as you say it's the differences that make life interesting. I was trying to make the point though that the way you sometimes expessed your views would be taken as insulting by some readers. I was positing the view that this might have been because english was not your first language rather than being intentional. On the other hand you might be arrogant and proud of it.:O

[grounded27]

That is what make life interesting. What will really make life interesting is to see UAV's operate in the private sector. Airlines for years have been trying to eliminate maintenance and operating costs. They have failed on the maintenance side, they have managed to remove one crew member thus far from the cockpit and replace him with automation.

[greatwhitehunter]

So do I Grounded27. Sadly where I work changes are bing pushed through that are calculated to set everyone against everyone else and devil take the hindmost. It's a culture of appearance over everything else. A well respected LAE was bollocked for 'writing too slowly in the log', another got an 'attaboy' for clearing a lot of ADDs all of which came back on the next flight.
maybe Tournesol has a point maybe we are mentally deficient.:E

[cedgz]

everybody will have a different opinion, the ones that are good VS. the ones that think they are good. so yes, there is a shortage of good mechs/techs/engineers.
but the sad thing is that good ones are getting frustrated because some management :mad: :mad: are taking the priviledges(that they deserve) of some hard working good guys. and yes, why bust your ass off if for the same amount of money you can just :yuk:

[tournesol]

Grounded 27,

Wether we like it or not, changes will always happen.
Not too long ago they had 5 crew members in the cockpit of large airliners.
Over the years, the wireless radio operator dissapeared, then the navigator, followed by the flight engineer. We are down to two. It is just a matter of time before the pilot dissapears.
Similar things have happened every where. I recall a time when a car mechanic use to listen to the sound of the engine and actually fix an item when deffects are noticed. Now the car is plugged to a computor and the mec is "told" to replace a certain box.
That is just the way things are and will continue to change.

As for me being arrogant, that is your opinion.

[MATMAX]

Tournesol,
Please tell me , if the computer is u/s , who will replace or fix the defect ... a pilot ?

[Kengineer-130]

Please don't take my question as a snipe at pilots, the intention of my post was to question the percived "underclass" of the engineer, when they are as vital to the operation as the captin. Both pilots & engineers have a mutual interest to look after each other in my humble opinion.

[MATMAX]

Kengineer-130,
OK , sorry man.
I do not know if there is a lack of Engineers maybe , but the thing i am sure is that , nowadays , most airlines or companies are trying to save money by having less Engineers as possible , sad but true ...

[greatwhitehunter]

Kengineer,
I can only speak for where I work where my experience has been that many engineers who have become managers do most of the damage to their colleagues pay and conditions. It is their activities that help create the engineering 'underclass'.
The second major cause is that unions in general do not support our aspirations. In larger companies we are a bargaining chip for the unions and they have no wish to see us get shead of anyone else. The ALAE did good work but was not recognised in many places and now they are part of Prospect, (time will tell on wheather this is a good thing).
lastly as I intimated earlier we don't hang together. If in any organisation, unionised or not, we supported one another we would be in a better position. Instead there is always someone who for short term advantage will sell out his/her and everyone else's future.

Even if you lay aside any arguments about what a pilots or engineers job is intrinsically worth the pilots will always do better because they do not fall foul of the above faults. If engineers are to be valued in future they must behave as a cohesive, professional group.

[cessna24]

Grounded27. Your exactly right. We, instead of I.....
I'm a keen team player and if johnny found the problem, then it's johnny who gets the glory!! (as such. In a way of well done, now we can fix it and get her flying again)
I get fed up of all the I did this and I did that........ But I have found that if they break something, it's We did this and we did that!! Really.......
It was once pointed out to me by our Storeman that some licenced engineers have big egos. Refuse help from others as they don't want to be upper classed! Ever since I was made aware of this it is very obvious!
Its a shame to see!

[grounded27]

As for me being arrogant, that is your opinion.

I have never called you arrogant, quit being so defensive. As far as the radio operator and the navigator, they had been removed before I was born in western aviation. As for the auto mechanic, there are still naturally aspirated engines and mechanic enthusiasts. The modern auto mechanic deals with something similar that we do, the life of a car is getting shorter as are aircraft. All of the technology and self diagnostic equipment the manufacturer can install to sell the customer an aircraft that diagnoses its self, can't help them when the unexpected happens. The AMT/LAE who has been around for a while knows to be weary of following a FIM as an aircraft ages you learn to expect the unexpected.

[aveng]

Sadly I believe there is negative public/management perception of LAMEs. You have only got to look at the way the Pilots swan about the airport even in their civies with ties on etc. They can be total numpties, but they look the part.

Couldn't agree more about the new gen LAMEs reliance on the FIM, if you were to believe boeings FIM you'd be replacing wiring before the most obvious component.

If somebody could put up a cost analysis to management (that they could understand) then maybe we could prove the real worth of a properly trained, experienced LAME.:ok:

[Shell Management]

Yes, bring back the BCARs, todays baby LAEs lack competence.

[MATMAX]

Maybe not Shell ...
Could you please explain why bringing back the BCARs will "give" a better technicity as i do not see your point ...?
Are you european ?
Thats how things are nowadays in Europe and , Sir , we are in 2011 and you have to live with your time.
Are you still working at 64 years old ?

[Capot]

At the risk of greatly oversimplifying a complex and serious issue for the sake of lightening up a bit, let's not forget a rule of thumb that applies in most situations; if an engineer screws up fatally, it's the pilot who kisses his a**e goodbye, and if a pilot screws up fatally, it's the pilot who kisses his a**e goodbye.

An M3 MRO that I was once involved with decreed that the engineer who signed off an aircraft after work calling for a test flight should ride as the observer on the test flight, along with the company pilot. The ensuing outrage reverberated for months, centering around the declaration "Not my job, mate". They won, but I always felt the principle had a lot going for it. So far as pay negotiations went, it was a Pyrrhic victory for the engineers.

[MATMAX]

EGT,
Did you reply to my first question to Shell , i do not think so ...
Why are you talking again about this "jealous" stuff ...?
Some Frenchies got a position you were dreaming of ?
May i suggest you to read the EASA rules mostly about the grand-fathers laws ...
Personnaly , i will not say to an older Engineer how he should work.
It is not because you got a piece of paper before others that you are a "better" Engineer.
A need to justify that you are not a butcher ?
(my first AML is from 2003 , what about yours ?).
You are right , i did not pass a single license examination but two and this during three years of apprenticeship ...
On that time , I was doing lockwiring by hand and replacing wirings only by following the diagrams.
Do you think you are able to do it ?

[grounded27]

I was taught how to rig and troublshoot classic jet aircraft from a geltleman of your age. The fact is my old retired friend that I greatly respect would be lost with the modern jet that he percieved as new in his age. I balance his common sence teachings with the technology of today, they are both valuable to me and hope I can be spoken of with the same respect in the future. I will pass what I can down, but the baby LAME/AMT, I will never make the mistake of disrespecting.

[EGT Redline]

Maybe not Shell ...
Could you please explain why bringing back the BCARs will "give" a better technicity as i do not see your point ...?
Are you european ?
Thats how things are nowadays in Europe and , Sir , we are in 2011 and you have to live with your time.
Are you still working at 64 years old ?

In addition to "today's baby LAEs" perhaps Shell Management should have included LAEs from certain european countries like France who were given free B1 and B2 licenses without passing a single licence examination :ok:

[itsresidualmate]

I can never understand why some engineers compare themselves, their respect, their pay and shoe size to pilots; we're not pilots. Is it because we're sometimes within a few feet of each other? That doesn't put us in the same profession. Do you compare yourselves to baggage handlers? Caterers? Cabin crew? I can remember reading one post on here with some numpty engineer asking where he thought engineers should be placed in rank with pilots! Pilot rank goes from captain to first officer; there's no engineer in there, likewise in engineering there's LAE to mechanic; no pilot position in there. We're not in the same profession

[cedgz]

EGT redline

In addition to "today's baby LAEs" perhaps Shell Management should have included LAEs from certain european countries like France who were given free B1 and B2 licenses without passing a single licence examination

That's false, when they started the jar66 B1, etc in France, so in Europe. The people that actually signed logbooks received the credit and received their licence with grandfather rights.
Then you have the people that did aviation schools(bts MEMA in my case), than they went to work for N registered airlines way before the jar stuff was implemented, and that did not receive their B1 with grandfather rights because we where signing of airplanes with a faa a&p, but we did the same aviation aviation schools(level of bts MEMA is higher than a B1 or B2 licence school). As a result is that we have to take some modules now and pay to get our B1,B2.
So Mr, maybe they gave some licences to some people without exams or whatever, but they didn't gave to the right people then

[MATMAX]

My answer to EGT has been put on the previous page , at 4am , i was sleeping on that time ...

[tournesol]

Itsresidualmate,

I totally agree with you. I have tried to say the same thing but I was accused of all sort of things. :ok:

[cedgz]

tournesol is right on that one, pilots have one disadvantage, they have to take the good decisions in the air, while we take em on the ground(plancher des vaches)
cheers,
good weekend to all spanner operators

[grounded27]

Yesterday's Technition / Engineer (having half a foot in in myself) may know how to move and fix aircraft more efficiently but the above posters speak of a bygone era. Today's AMT/LAME are restricted by company/CAA mandate to follow the rules and there are a hell of allot moreof them with more oversight. They are not less, just different, smarter in their environment... Probably. Hell you tell me I am an A-hole that must follow the FIM/TSM and have an AMM in hand for a task I have performed 50 times I will adapt and play the game. It slows down progress, effective line maintenance and creates a larger expense. Eventually airlines will require more techs per aircraft, today's Tech plays the smart game career wise in an environment that holds more liability. I hold plenty of tricks in my pocket to bypass the B.S., I use them less and less every day. Change is certain... Can you adapt?

[easaman]

CEDGZ

You are right with the different grandfather rights!
You did not get the JAR66 licence at that time with your A&P, we had to go a full training for over GBP 100, 000 because we only had an A&P licenses and the British Airways A&P "only" engineers got the licence for their grandfather rights!
Cheers easaman

[easaman]

> grounded 27 wrote "Can you adapt?"

If they would make life easier for many of maintenance people, it would be very helpful!

By what they are demanding, all manuals should be on board of an aircraft, in whatever form!

Imagine, you are alone on an airport and the office with the manuals is 30 minutes away, this creates planned detours, doesn't it?

Cheers easaman

[grounded27]

Adaptation is refusing your gut instinct to pull a reference out of your black book to sign off a PDIS and travel the the 30 minutes to get the proper reference in paper (if the aircraft does not have amm etc on the aircraft). I am just saying that the airlines make the rules (have large influence over the FAA in my case) if they do not make it easy for us to do our jobs by the book make it their liability, not ours. We are influenced all too often to do everything we can to save a delay, to be a company man, MGT will never back you up if you are not fully prepared and your CAA decides to make a visit.

You can not go wrong by doing the correct thing even if it means scrutiny by MGT. They are backing us into a corner fellas, we do not have to let them. By doing so you force their hand to spend the money to allow us to be more efficient!

Cheers brother easaman!

Just to add that sometimes I will kill a tree before getting called out to an aircraft given a general idea of what has been written in the log hoping that I am prepared only to find that what has been reported to me has nothing to do with the actual problem, sometimes I show up with the correct reference and save the flight.

[Beeline]

Easaman, BA cannot hand out licences the CAA does. I think you are getting confused that they were issued B1 company codes even though the A+P covers no electrics.

I hope the suggestion of Manuals inside the flight deck brings with it a padlock!

I hate Pilots trying to catch you out with technical when you walk on to the Flight deck.

Its pretty blatant the defect has been discussed extensively throughout the flight having given an FCOM system refresher course to each other during the sector!

A TSM/FIM in there would be a nightmare.

[NutLoose]

Bringing BCAR's back won't really help, what we are lacking is the outflow we used to get from the RAF etc, it is ok training LAE's from scratch, but they lack the life and engineering experiences a lot of the ex service personnel coming into civilian aviation provided as they moved to doing their licences, this has almost dried up with the shrinkage in the military, so the percentage has now gone the other way from a higher amount of experienced personnel going for their licences to a greater number of straight from training engineers.

Well that's how I see it.

[TURIN]

Is this what you are referring to?

European License Conversions (http://www.airmech.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=7225)

[easaman]

Beeline
>Easaman, BA cannot hand out licences the CAA does. I think you are getting confused that they were issued B1 company codes even though the A+P covers no electrics.

I am not getting confused!
There was a fellow of mine in the nineties working both for US-Carriers with our A&P and both of us were working European Airliners as contractors with our A&P.
He went to BA and I stayed with the US-Carrier.
We lost our Airwortyness Release Autority, when the JAR-66 came up and I was sent to Oxford for five month with two other fellows to get the licence.
The 5 month B&B + the training + exam fees + travelling was a huge sum!

My fellow got some years later the same licence with his A&P by working for BA.

As you know A&C's when they converted to JAR-66 got restrictions 1 & 9 like the BA A&P!!!

The funny thing is that we could change Batteries/Generators before the conversion and after the conversion not any more!

Another funny thing is that we both were electicians in our first trade,
with having restrictions on electrics & avionics in the first JAR-66 licence.

Cheers
easaman

[cedgz]

I hope the suggestion of Manuals inside the flight deck brings with it a padlock!

I hate Pilots trying to catch you out with technical when you walk on to the Flight deck.

Its pretty blatant the defect has been discussed extensively throughout the flight having given an FCOM system refresher course to each other during the sector!

A TSM/FIM in there would be a nightmare.


it's already on board, our 777's have the fim and accessible to the pilots on their efb cdu(fancy tactil touch screen) and md11 fim books are on board
having a pilot that look at these fim's means that he is interested in what he's doing and maybe he will give some better informations on his discrepancy, and not something like "bleed air 1 off" or "ap ctr disconnect", etc

[grounded27]

I believe pilots should have technical knowledge as long as it does not interfere with their duties as pilots. This knowledge should be geared to help them describe their discrepancies, really some 34 and 22 basic training would really help, mabe 23 as well. Very simple troubleshooting info to give us the data to help better define a problem. It is not really very technical just to help a pilot create a PDIS that is more defined. It would reduce the erronous number of PDIS that we often CND. Help them understand what the aircraft they are flying is actually capable of doing.

[easaman]

I do not see a problem when pilots are looking up manual stuff!
This makes us raising our standard level of maintenance!
Cheers easaman

PS: As there are good and better pilots, there are also good and better maintenance people...

[Krystal n chips]

" We're not in the same profession"

I have to politely disagree with that comment because actually, we are..it's called aviation and flight safety and the word you are looking for is symbiosis...:)

I have to agree with Nutloose's post however :ok: as the transition from mil ( Army, Navy and RAF ) was a natural progression which I, and many others followed. The airlines were an obvious choice, but so, for many, was "the circuit".

However, the focus on here regarding the shortage of engineers, is primarily it seems with regard to the airlines.

Which begs the question, as to how other sectors are coping ( and will cope in the future ) for example Biz-jets, G/A and vintage aircraft, the last two requiring a different range of skill sets in contrast to those required for the "Airboeing" fleets.

G/A has always been notorious for poor pay and conditions and I would suspect ( please feel free to prove me wrong however ) that the shortage will be more acute and imminent than in the airlines here.

[NutLoose]

Which begs the question, as to how other sectors are coping ( and will cope in the future ) for example Biz-jets, G/A and vintage aircraft, the last two requiring a different range of skill sets in contrast to those required for the "Airboeing" fleets.


Define skill sets, have done Military, Fighters, Helicopters, Biz-jets, Airliners, Warbirds and do G/A.... Cannot see a lot of difference in the skill set between any of them, if anything G/A requires a greater skill set.

[Krystal n chips]

" Define skill sets,"

Dope and fabric, wooden structures...... for example..... not much call for these on a Boeing / Airbus is there.

Heavy pistons is another area.

The point I am trying to make is the variety of engineering and the resultant shortage of engineers with the ability/ experience to maintain these types.

[greatwhitehunter]

I don't see any problem with the manuals being on board and accessible to the crew. Yes you will get some who will try to direct your actions or catch you out. You should though have sufficient caracter and confidence to make it clear that that you are the one signing so you will decide the actions taken. Been there, done it and worn the T shirt so it would be nothing new. It's more likely that it would assist the crew to give you more accurate data to work from. Most pilots I have met have always tried to be as helpful as possible.
There is one other benefit modern pilots are trained much more on procedures and less on technical matters so anything that might increase their understanding of the aircraft and it's systems is a good thing. I'm not denigrating pilots here it is a matter of fact caused by the bean counters need to reduce costs. The same factor which has reduced the quality of engineering training.
I'll wait for the screams now.:E

[Krystal n chips]

" The same factor which has reduced the quality of engineering training "

OK, as it has a relevance to the topic, I'll bite.

Would you care to exemplify your statement and quantify as to whether you refer to mil. or civilian.....or both.

And what evidence do you have to demonstrate this reduction on quality, is affecting the supply of engineers ?

Nothing like a serious debate is there.....:D

[shedhead]

Would you care to exemplify your statement?
I recently spent some time doing component level work in an Avionics workshop. the average age of the people in that workshop was approaching the 45 year old mark. In the past most Avionic LAEs understood the systems they worked on down to component level. Now? not many do. in fact so few people now have the level of skill and knowledge required for that level of fault finding that it is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain manpower levels in workshops outside of the OEMs. In fact some of the shiny new B2s have less systems knowledge than quite a few of the unlicenced avionics mechanics they supervise. not a good situation is it?

[greatwhitehunter]

Well crystal that was simply my view based on 42 years experience in the civil aviation maintenance business. I base it on my day to day observations of the capabilities of the people I see around me and the quality of the training they and I now get. Many courses are conducted by presenters who turn and read pages and cannot go into detail when requsted. It's important to know the how and why as well as the what of a system.
Over the years the technology changes and the skill set required changes. The aim is to produce a 'well rounded engineer'. I'm sorry if you think I am denigrating these people, I'm not. Neither am I an 'it was better in my day' merchant, I am reflecting the fact that the length and quality of training has been cut. I see an increasing decline in basic hand skills and ever more clear failures in basic understanding of the systems being worked on. You can not seriously expect me to deny my experience and say all is well? It isn't.
With adequate training and commitment the youngsters of today are just as good as any in the past. The question is will they be trained well enough when overseen by cost concious managers who quite often have no operational experience and consequently no idea of what is required.
I have always done my best to bring these younger engineers on but with demands for more production with less staff there are limits.
As I move towards leaving the industry I wish all my fellows well but I am worried by the dip in competency I see.

[Krystal n chips]

GWH

Thanks for a very perceptive reply....:ok:

[grounded27]

In my 18 years experience I have always felt that the real training happens on the line. The DC-10 for example was an aircraft I was taught from my mates and more importantly the TAFI, a year later I had formal training and gained a bunch of both "gee wiz" and practical information from. Many courses later I realized just how much the classroom training has it's limits.