Douglas Bader's Logbook

[Wander00]

According to the BBC sold at auction yeterday, and mention made "to the owner of a Spitfire". Narrows the field a bit, but a pity it was not the RAF Museum. Just a personal view.

[Genghis the Engineer]

There's a publishing opportunity there.

If that was published - no need for any expansion or explanation, quite a few of us would buy a copy.

That would actually be a really interesting series. Whose logbooks would you love to have on the shelf to browse?

- Douglas Bader?
- John Farley?
- Eric Brown?
- Neville Duke?
- Francis Chichester?
- Adolf Galland?
- Ann Welch?
- Werner Von Braun?
- Brian Trubshaw?
- Bob Hoover?
- Neil Armstrong?
- Jim Brown?

I wonder if this could be done in support of an appropriate charity? You'd think if it was, for example, for the Poppy Appeal or RAFBF, that those pilots or their next of kin would be amenable to allowing these logbooks to be reproduced?

G

[Bergerie1]

Without doubt - Eric Brown's.

[Wander00]

Hannah Reitsch
Ivor Broom

A thought - if you buy a painting, I believe you don't necessarily own the copyright. Who owns the copyright in a logbook?

[Giglamps]

I thought logbooks were the property of the RAF. Weren't they meant to have been returned to the Air Ministry when one left the Service?

[ShyTorque]

In theory, possibly. But I've never heard of a system to collect them, or a requirement for them to be returned on leaving. They certainly never put it on the blue clearance chit... I've still got all four volumes of mine.

[Evanelpus]

I think Eric Brown's for me too!

Anyone know what Baders fetched at auction?

[skwinty]

Pat Marmaduke Pattle for the win!

[PPRuNe Towers]

Dear Santa,

For Xmas could I please have a facsimile of Eric Brown's logbooks.

If they have gone to all the good boys I would be willing to accept the Swimsuit Edition of Russian aerobatic ace Svetlana Kapanina's logbook.

http://www.media-eyes.com/index/news/07-1104_TRM/DSC_1295.gif

Thanks in advance,
Rob

[GQ2]

Most of us do a little 'collecting', in our own small way. However, I've always found it rather dismaying to see historic RAF logbooks sold off to private 'collectors'. They can often be important and unique historic documents. Perhaps it's more than a tad idealistic to hope for a complete collection to be held at Hendon, but they are historic documents at the end of the day. They are also in truth, RAF documents. Maybe the answer would be for keepers to all bequest them to the RAFM, or, at the very least, copies. It would be a useful legacy for future researchers.
Many of these logbooks are now acquired by dealers masquerading as 'historians' or 'collectors' who are really just out to make money. They may then end-up being lost abroad, or disappear into the bowels of private 'collections', never to reappear. Such 'collectors' often split-up and sell off an individuals collection of mementoes simply to increase their profit. Of course, it's a great pity to see related items dispersed this way simply for monetary gain.
I once discussed this subject with a well known private dealer/collector. His view was that Hendon was not a good place, donated documents were not looked after, and were not accessible. I begged to differ of course....on principle. At least if these historic documents go to Hendon, we all know where they are and they will make them accessible, whereas private collectors are unlikely to do so. If they are given to Hendon, discussions about access can await another day. In my own experience, Hendon are always professional, helpful and accommodating.
Facsimiles of interesting logbooks have been made in the past. Perhaps Hendon could scan what they have and put them online for an access fee...?

[spekesoftly]

Whose logbooks would you love to have on the shelf to browse? ...........In addition to those already listed, I would add:-

John Derry
John Cunningham
Jan Zurakowski
Roland "Bee" Beamont

(It would have to be quite a substantial shelf !) ;)

[treadigraph]

Blast you Rob, now I'm going to find it difficult to concentrate today...


I'd think Neil William's log books would make for an interesting perusal as well; wonder if they still exist, if so perhaps Lynn has them.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Rolly Beaumont! Who he?

Are you perhaps thinking 'Bee' Beamont? There was a 'Roly' Falk, famous for rolling a Vulcan.

Treadders. Lynn who?

[GQ2]

That would be his younger brother, artist, writer, pilot and designer of the Staaken Flitzer etc.

[treadigraph]

Yes, Lynn Williams did the artwork for Neil's books "Aerobatics" and "Airborne", and also often does paintings for magazines such as Pilot.

[spekesoftly]

Rolly Beaumont! Who he?Oops! Thanks Pop. I did of course mean Roly "Bee" Beamont. Post now corrected.

[Tankertrashnav]

GQ2 - as a former dealer in militaria I realise that many people hold your view that I was 'really just out to make money'. Well, as I had a mortgage to pay, kids to feed etc I make no apology whatsoever for making money on the deals I struck over the years - I certainly wasn't doing it as some form of altruism.

As regards items 'disappearing into the bowels of collectors', I would say the opposite is the case. Items in private collections usually come onto the market again in a number of years - whereas those donated to museums often disappear without trace into reserve collections where they are at best difficult to view by the public, usually by appointment only.

My most serious criticism of museums, however, is their general appalling security. I have personally been offered items which I have discovered have been stolen from miltary museums, and on more than one occasion helped those museums regain their stolen property. Everyone has their own tale of items which have 'disappeared' from museum collections - indeed we had a whole thread of some disappearing WW2 militaria which had been lent by the recipient a while back. Accountabilty for objects on loan collections seems to be non-existent - there is never an inventory holder as we would recognise it who can be held to account for losses.

If some rich punter has paid for Bader's logbook, good luck to them. They won't live forever and it will be on the market again in time.

[GQ2]

Tankertrashnav;- As you state, it is a widely held view - and with good reasons, as I outlined. I'm sure no one held a gun to your head to deal with these items.
.
The term 'Militaria' covers an almost infinite spectrum of material. Most of it is not particularly contentious, (To many people it's just junk), but there are two areas which are.
1. Documents that should clearly belong in a museum.
.
;-Whatever shortcomings museums may have can be addressed. I access reserve items regularly with no problem, other than the need to travel. It's obvious that museums can't keep every single item on display all the time. The fact that items held privately may come up for sale occasionally is no substitute whatever for being properly catalogued and available for research. The new buyer, if he has the jellybeans, will be the only beneficiary. Collections of documents lose most if not all of their research value when dispersed for profit.
.
2. Rare components.
;-In the case of the latter, I'm not suggesting that they all go to museums, but the cost of historic aircraft restorations/rebuilds, for example, is inflated by 'collectors'. Certain items have become ludicrously expensive. That's not simply the fault of the dealers wanting to inflate prices, which of course they do, but wannabe anoraks who will never put those parts to good use and who are prepared to pay ludicrous prices for them to sit of a shelf. Sadly, there isn't much we can do about that, but it's pretty annoying if you happen to need them.......
.
Finally, I know of several instances where (Valuable) items and documents of historic interest were lent by elderly ex-aviators to quite well known people...and never returned. I know of 'collectors' who have befriended such people at the end of their lives, simply in order to obtain items. In one case, the person went to the widows house and claimed the items were his and took reams of material. Such things tend to be very opinion forming.
.
I'm very grateful to be able to access rare and specialised knowledge and information held by museums, for which I gladly pay modest fees, and which I know go to a good worthwhile cause. I also know that this is exactly what the donors intended. There is absolutely no way at all that I'd have been able to access this data if it'd have been held privately...I'd never have even been able to locate it. I'm also glad - and relieved, when I'm able to obtain parts for sensible uninflated prices. I'm also very selective about who I sell surplus items to, as I'd far rather see them fly again, rather than collect dust of someones bookshelf, even if it means selling them for much less money.

[Tankertrashnav]

Finally, I know of several instances where (Valuable) items and documents of historic interest were lent by elderly ex-aviators to quite well known people...and never returned.

I dont know if you followed this thread

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/436227-91-year-old-spitfire-pilot-needs-your-help.html

But a good read through it will show that it's not just collectors and dealers who can't be trusted. The RAF doesnt come out of the story too well, and neither do various major aviation museums.

My own two-pennorth is at post 83 by the way.

Oh and you're right, nobody pointed a gun at my head - I bought and sold these items of my own free will and have an absolutely clear conscience. Sorry you're peeved that you've been priced out of various items you'd like for yourself - but that's a free market for you.

[GQ2]

No, I hadn't seen that, but have just given it a quick scan. It's a bad show, and of course the increasing value of items provides added incentive. I hope he gets his stuff back. It's a good case for providing copies only for display...but indirectly, this reminded me of another tale that is almost funny.
.
When there were more wartime RAF survivors around, I often used to take them flying. It was a great pleasure, and we always made a day of it, so by the time we parted, I'd invariably been the recipient of a veritable host of many wonderful aviation stories. One of the old lags drew my attention to an article...I think it was in the Daily Mail. It was all about a decorated ex-RAF BoB Spitfire pilot. He was living in a caravan, and was about to be evicted. He was in the local Legion, and had had pride of place and led their Remembrance Sunday parades for many years. There was a full-page spread...photos of him in uniform, medals...the whole shebang. As it wasn't too far away, full of righteous indignation, I arranged to go and see him, to see if I could set matters straight for him and his wife. I was regaled with all sorts of amazing tales. However, when we got onto the flying....he seemed suddenly rather hazy.... Then there was the episode where he had, apparently, landed a Spitfire on a beach to pick-up another pilot. I'd never heard of it, which seemed strange...as I'd have thought it would have figured in the popular mythology of the BoB. That said...over the years, I'd heard many a tale from these typically modest men, which they had never sought to promulgate. It was a war, they just did their job, and wanted to go home and get on with their lives. Many never even flew again. Then there was the documentation he showed me. Some of it was copies. Fair enough. Originals get lost...but I was starting to get a very uncomfortable feeling. After I got home, I took expert advice from the IWM on the photo, - all by fax back then of course - as the rank and medals looked wrong, but as it was B&W I was hard-pressed to ID the ribbons. It turned out that, of course, the photo wasn't him, but a quite high-profile senior officer. All the documents were copies with the names changed. He'd never been in the RAF, let alone been a BoB pilot or indeed, as I had suspected, any sort of pilot at all. He's been in the army was was later a second-hand car salesman. It was, even at the time, so preposterous, that I was forced to laugh....! The serious side was however, that not only is it technically illegal to wear awards fraudulently, but it could have left the towns Legion in a rather embarrassing position. I knew if I reported it, it'd cause a fuss, and the Mail would have probably made an even bigger splash of the embarrassing back-story. I rang the culprit, and told him the game was up, but he continued to deny the truth. I told him that I wouldn't take any further action, so long as he didn't lead any more parades or pop-up on radar again. I never heard of him again, and as this was back in the '90's he's probably passed-on by now. I hope I did the right thing....but still cringe and chuckle to myself when I think about it....!

[P6 Driver]

What happens (or will happen) to the log books of aviators who have been involved in conflicts such as Iraq, Afghanistan & Libya?

I'm thinking particularly of any "classified" entries or sensitive mission details, e.g. Apache pilots.

Just curious.

[Tankertrashnav]

GQ2 - Good tale, and you're definitely not the only one to have been taken in by a Walt. I think the way you handled it was the best you could have done in the circumstances.

I once found a very sparsely completed WW2 logbook which had an entry to the effect that the chap had been shot down over northern France in May 1944 and was then back flying on Ops about 10 days later. I suppose it could have just been the fastest ever escape from enemy territory known, but I reckoned it was someone's attempts to fake up an interesting logbook and then getting carried away.

As a dealer in militaria I was a Walt magnet and soon learned to keep a straight face when some portly gentleman tapped his nose, winked and told me that he wasn't allowed to go into too many details about his army service!

P6 driver, I was under the impression that logbooks should not include any classified info. An entry such as "Op Sandyplace - 1.45" will be enough for the pilot's records and won't give any sensitive details away