Remembrance Service

[sunday driver]

At 1055 today the reading of the list of the fallen in our short village Remembrance Service was drowned by a helicopter passing W - E at ~ 3000ft, 10 miles N of EGHO.

Any thoughts?

SD

[foxmoth]

Unfortunate, but what was he supposed to do - land? If you had said he was at 500' then I think there would be a case, but at 3,000' I would think not unreasonable.

Also - I am pretty sure EGHO is Thruxton, but not 100% and a lot of people will not know this, so why not put where it is in English?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I was at Booker today - every aircraft was landed by 1058 with the engines off, starting again about 1105.

Quiet, solemn, and appropriate. I was impressed.

Re: the Helicopter. Sadly no particular reason he could have known you were doing that, and it wasn't on the 2 minutes silence either. Sorry to say it, but I can't help regard it as just bad luck. And from 3,000ft the noise should have been pretty minimal.

G

[NudgingSteel]

Unfortunate timing if it happened as you describe, although it may also have been a Cat A or B flight (Helimed, Rescue or police), which very frequently operate with the "safety of life" at stake.

[sunday driver]

Not trying to complain, just trying to explore attitudes.
Interesting to hear Ghengis' experience. I wonder if that was organised, or a spontaneous gesture?

BTW It was a red JetRanger (or similar) so not either of our local air ambulances, and no I have no interest in who it was.
Judging by the direction, it was probably not a local flight.

[J.A.F.O.]

Sunday Driver

I'm failing to see your point, could you expand slightly?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Sunday - so far as I could tell, the airport had decided simply to permit no take-offs during the 2 minute silence, but the rest was spontaneous.

G

[S-Works]

What's the point of the post? Do you expect the world to stop for the two minute silence? Being ex Military myself I am a huge supporter of showing the great respect that our fallen deserve and showing support for those putting there life on the line in conflict. But this is a modern world and it keeps on turning.

I was on the side of a mountain green laning yesterday not able to stop but I still observed the silence as I drove as did the rest of the convoy.

Whois to say the pilot of the helicopter was not having his own time of reflection and respect?

[Keef]

I took the service at the local war memorial yesterday, and cars carried right on passing throughout the event. I just bellowed a bit louder.

I'm not sure what else they could have done, although one in a side road did stop (engine running) until we'd finished.

[BackPacker]

In the Netherlands we have our annual remembrance moment on May 4th, at 20.00.

By NOTAM, the whole FIR below some sort of limit (I think FL65) is effectively closed from 19.58 to 20.10 or so, with all departures and arrivals timed so that they are either on the ground, or above that level during that period.

Furthermore, around the major remembrance sites there are RA(T)s in place for a much longer duration.

[smarthawke]

It has been airfield management policy for as long as I can remember at Wycombe Air Park (Booker) - on both Armistice Day (11 November) and on Remembrance Day (13 November).

No engines running on the airfield and no circuit flying between 1058hrs and 1102hrs.

[sunday driver]

Bose
I'm a very amateur aviator, but very aware of the way thoughts and feelings drift can through the mind while at X thousand feet - St Ex's books bring this out very well. So I easily accept your view. But it's not just about the individual, it's about everyone within earshot, and that can mean that one person affects hundreds.

JAFO
Expand? Well I like to fly. And I want GA to flourish.
I ask myself 'how does the rest of the community view GA?'

Is it a great past-time and a benefit to the UK economy?
Do most people not give a stuff?
Or is it a noisy nuisance, that pollutes the environment; a pecadillo of rich yobs who don't give a monkey's about anyone else?

Our little community are very aviation tolerant. I'd like them to stay tolerant and supportive.
11.11 is one possibly sensitive occasion when a single aviator can affect the attitude of many people.

I suppose my point is 'does GA care?'
The responses above show an expected spread of views, that I find helpful.

[Genghis the Engineer]

It has been airfield management policy for as long as I can remember at Wycombe Air Park (Booker) - on both Armistice Day (11 November) and on Remembrance Day (13 November).

No engines running on the airfield and no circuit flying between 1058hrs and 1102hrs.

How's that promulgated? I've flown from EGTB for a few years (probably not previously on 11/11 or rememberance Sunday to be fair) and don't recall seeing anything on a noticeboard or NOTAMs anywhere?

I should say, I think it's an entirely appropriate policy - I just don't know how it's spread out.

And has the pillock who started his (Extra 300?) engine at 1059 and sat with it running at moderate revs next to ATS on Sunday been banned from the airfield by Cap'n Orchard yet?

G

[Duckeggblue]

Where I fly, there is a village to the North and to the South of the airfield.
Circuit direction was varied to avoid directing any engine noise toward either village when their respective services were taking place.

Fortunately the services were 30 mins apart so this was possible - just.
This could only be done because the village newsletter is delivered to the airfield and they let us know what was going on -and when.

I don't suppose that locals were aware of the change in circuit direction to minimise any noise.

I think that most people will accommodate and be respectful - if they know that something is going on.
It is not necessarily a lack of respect that is being demonstrated here so much as a lack of knowledge.

[Gomrath]

I think that most people will accommodate and be respectful - if they know that something is going on.
It is not necessarily a lack of respect that is being demonstrated here so much as a lack of knowledge.
One should assume that at 11:00 on Remembrance Sunday that there will be a service at every War Memorial throughout the UK.
You have to hope that folk would be mindful of that and take it into account.

[mikehallam]

My experience says more helicopter pilots/owners think they can fly low and bust anyone's airspace at will than most others. Too many appear to possess have inflated egos and no airmanship.

No wonder one such empty headed individual was oblivious of the sensibilities of 11 a.m on Remembrance Sunday.

mike hallam

[Pull what]

Perhaps we should also remember that millions died so that people could have the freedom to do what they choose within reason. Not everyone wishes to remember the war dead or even buy a poppy so lets celebrate that freedom too. Please also consider that some people just plain forget. Lack of understanding of other people and trying to force your will upon them has a lot to do with causing wars-think about it!

[thing]

Perhaps we should also remember that millions died so that people could have the freedom to do what they choose within reason. Not everyone wishes to remember the war dead or even buy a poppy so lets celebrate that freedom too. Please also consider that some people just plain forget. Lack of understanding of other people and trying to force your will upon them has a lot to do with causing wars-think about it!

+1^. And FWIW I'm a 20 odd year service veteran. I've never worn a poppy, don't see the need. If it makes you feel better wearing one once a year then be my guest. I believe I was on the airfield prepping an a/c at 11am last Sunday.

Edit: I might add that I do respect the right of others to observe the two minutes and I wouldn't have flown at that time unless it was neccessary.

[smarthawke]

The Wycombe Air Park period of silence was not NOTAM'd but promulgated by ATC via letters to all airfield based operators and to private owners, visitors etc by letters on the airfield information board in the airfield reception area (alongside NOTAMs, met, airfield info etc).

A note was also attached to the top of the booking in/out form. In addidtion, ATC were warning aircraft that were already up and running.

Unfortunately, ATC can't stop people who don't/can't read and start their engines after the silence period has begun. The aircraft in question would probably have been out of sight down that cul de sac...

[Dave Gittins]

I flew from Redhill last Saturday and there was a notice from the airfield operator which said no take offs, landings, aircraft in the circuit or ground running from about 10.50 to 11.10 on Sunday 13th. Seems a pretty standard practice.

[Nibbler]

I was going to relay my own story of a pilot's ineptitude, arrogance, ignorance and disrespect on this particular day - then I deleted it.

In my 4 years both working and flying in GA I have the pleasure of being consistently reminded of these traits in many who are associated with it.

On reflection I choose to stay in the aviation arena, without particularly needing to and despite all the nutters, moaners, know it alls, willy wavers and the mercenary behaviour I've seen, here I am.

Either it can't be all that bad, I'm one of them or maybe I've just given up caring?

[J.A.F.O.]

oblivious of the sensibilities of 11 a.m on Remembrance Sunday

Hang on, the original post said: 3000ft and the OP later added: probably not a local flight

So, someone took off at 1000 for a cross country to land at 1145 and, mindful of the fact that he/she did not want to cause unnecessary disturbance transited at 3000ft. How is that in any way insensitive?

[dublinpilot]

One should assume that at 11:00 on Remembrance Sunday that there will be a service at every War Memorial throughout the UK.
You have to hope that folk would be mindful of that and take it into account.

One should assume that there will be no pubs open in Ireland on Good Friday. Yet every year on Good Friday there are groups of confused British men on stag parties outside pubs in Dublin wondering why they aren't open! The reason is simply because they 'aren't from around these parts' and don't know our customs.

Who says the pilot was British and knew anything about Rememberance Sunday? If I was flying to the UK that weekend, I'd certainly not know about any significance of 11:00 on Remembrance Sunday. I know you guys wear poppys on Remembrance Sunday (which I'd always assumed to be a British thing but only recently learnt that it orginiated in the USA), but had no knowledge of the time significance.

Secondly I don't see many War Memorial sites marked on the 500K chart, so how would one know which sites to avoid?

Is 3000ft now enough high enough to cause little to no noise?

There seems to be an attitude here that all GA should should stop at this time, and all cross country flights (as this one seems to have been) should arrange to either land enroute before 11:00 and take off again afterwards, or arrange that their flight is finished by 11:00 or doesn't start until that time. Does the same apply to roads? Do all the roads in the UK become empty at 11:00?

As an unaffected spectator to this debate, I'm really at a loss to understand what this pilot did wrong. A group of people were having a moment of silence, and while everyone was being really quite they could just about hear an aircraft more than half a mile above their heads. The pilot had no way of knowing that there was a gathering at this site because they didn't know that where was any site there, and even if they did, they flew quite high to make sure that there would be no noise foot print above normal background noise.

dp

[mikehallam]

True,

But their big mistake was he/she, either English or a hapless foreigner, was in an egg beater - the most insinuating noisiest footprint a/c around.

mike hallam

[S-Works]

Mike, how long did you serve in the military for? Which theatres?

Clearly something driving the huge chip you seem to be carrying on this, so would you care to share?

As I said earlier as someone who has served and lost comrades, I don't expect the world to stop. It's a free world because of those who sacrificed. Being a free world gives everyone choice. Some choose to show respect very publicly, some choose to show it introspectively. Others may choose not to. But the moment we start to try to force our standards on others those freedoms become eroded and eventually lost.........

Engage brain, engage tolerance, relax.........

[Nibbler]

:D

Says it all really.

[mikehallam]

And B-x, I appreciate your personal kindly way of displaying tolerance too.

mike hallam.

[note a real English name, no pseudonym].

[S-Works]

You are welcome.