BBC Coverage of Remembrance in Whitehall?

[teeteringhead]

I have purposely not included this in the Remembrance Day sticky, as it's a bit of a whinge.

Visually as stunning and humbling as ever, but oh dear Mr Dimbleby - your father will be turning in his grave. Just the ones I clocked:

1. Called CAS "Sir David Dallon" - got it right second time.
2. Reference to the Field Hospital at Cape Bastion.
3. Calling the BLESMA boss Col Jeremy Church (he is Jerome - and an old mate).
4. Saying the RAF Regt is "the military part of the RAF." (stand by for incomers) ;)
5. Saying that the FAA "are supporting piracy operations in the Gulf."
6. Welcoming the "South Atlantic Medical (oops - Medal!) Association."
7. And the "Norman Veterans' Association"

[edited to add #7]

and that's just what my restricted expertise led me to notice.

David - can you please:

a. get a new scriptwriter
b. get a new pair of specs
c. take more water with it
d. all of the above

.... good to see Flt Lt Wales properly dressed though .......;)

[Clockwork Mouse]

What's wrong with item 4?

[airborne_artist]

I'm with CM - with the exception of SH mates, I reckon he was quite correct ;)

[hval]

Ahh Uhmm,

Reference Point 4, I am in agreement with teetering head on this one.

I was under the impression that the R.A.F. was part of "the military". Obviously my understanding of the word "military" is incorrect.

[langleybaston]

where I come from Jerome as a Christian name is pronounced Jeremy!

[cazatou]

I would have said that the statement that the FAA are supporting Piracy Operations casts "Jack" in a different light.

[teeteringhead]

I'm with CM - with the exception of SH mates, I reckon he was quite correct .... you may well say that ..... I couldn't possibly comment!! ;);)

[Wensleydale]

Not to mention:

1st Airborne Division who landed in Normandy on D-Day (it was the 6th AB)

Army Air Corps who landed the gliders at Pegasus Bridge (it was the Glider Pilots' Regiment - AAC formed from GPR much later)
Perhaps the BBC are using the surplus of chefs on their payrole as "experts"?

[teeteringhead]

Thanks Wensleydale, you've reminded me of another one; Dimblebore spoke of the "Norman Veterans' Association" ... not too many left from 1066 these days I spose .......

I'll edit the original to add it

[corporal punishment]

Sorry, Wensley D,

The Army Air Corps in 1944 comprised the Parachute Regt and Glider Pilot Regt, although it was a larger admin set up - it is strictly correct.

You will occasionally see reference to 'The Glider Pilot regt, Army Air Corps' or 'Parachute Regt .....'

However, this does not detract from the fact that Dimbleblunder is a useless presenter and should be put out to grass. There are frequently errors in what he says and those who listen to 'Any Questions' are also up in arms about them.

BTW Mrs CP thinks she knows the female pilot with medals galore, who led the RAF contingent at the Royal Albert hall last night. Is she a helio pilot (ex Army) called Penny G...... by any chance?

[racedo]

Its the BEEB, why would they get anything accurate and change history.

[heights good]

"I'm with CM - with the exception of SH mates, I reckon he was quite correct "

SH are all part of the Army anyway..... ;)

HG

[Clockwork Mouse]

Well, they should be at least!

[DX Wombat]

I thought this was probably the better place to ask this question, which is not intended to start a long debate about why it should be so, but I should like to know what is considered the appropriate length of time to wear a poppy after Remembrance Sunday?

[Pontius Navigator]

DX, pub set.

I think those who 'wear' them, and Red Noses, on their cars throughout the year are just making a statement (and not a good one).

Just a personal view.

[Melchett01]

Cpl P,

Check PMs

Melchett

[Wander00]

For what it is worth, I wear mine until the end of Remembrance Sunday. means I can go to the supermarket tomorrow morning without the French staring at me! Seriously though, I tend to go for 1 Nov to Remembrance Sunday.

[airborne_artist]

I thought this was probably the better place to ask this question, which is not intended to start a long debate about why it should be so, but I should like to know what is considered the appropriate length of time to wear a poppy after Remembrance Sunday?

I wear my poppy from Nov 1st to the 11th or Remembrance Sunday, which ever is the later. Like Christmas decorations they seem to sprout earlier every year. I think it demeans the cause.

[Rigga]

Back to No.4 please...

I often say I never served in the Military - I joined the RAF instead.

[DX Wombat]

Thank you people, that was what I was thinking and what I tend to do. :)

[Impiger]

If one is a stickler for the correct use of old fashioned English then calling the RAF Regiment the 'military' arm of the RAF is quite correct. The term 'military' applies only to the Army hence Military Aviation = AAC. Perhaps more telling is the Naval and Military Club in London formed in 1862. Clearly the Military are diferent to the Navy and thus also different to the RAF.:ok:

[Capetonian]

Dimbleby represents much of what is wrong with the BBC these days.

He is smug, complacent, a total lefty (leftie?) and arrogant.

[cazatou]

I certainly cannot picture him in a Lancaster recording the progress of a bombing raid over Germany - as his Father did in WW2.

[teeteringhead]

Wearing of Poppies - RAF Dress Regulations (AP1358) has it thus at para 0132b:b. Remembrance Day Poppy. The poppy may be worn from the onset of sales. Poppies are to be removed after the National and local observation of remembrance has concluded each year. .... but of course, if you want the military regulations, you'll have to seek elsewhere ....... :rolleyes:

[cazatou]

PN

Have I missed your round AGAIN?

[Union Jack]

The advertising slogan "Should have gone to S***savers!" comes very much to mind, and certainly could explain several of the Dimbleballs TH accurately quotes, particularly 1, 2, 6, and 7 (and perhaps 3 as well).

Much worse than the errors in the script, so far as I am concerned, was the apparent lack of co-ordination between DD and the techies during the march-past, when DD was attempting to describe one group when the camera at the time was showing a completely different group, frequently one that had long passed the Cenotaph. Regrettably, it happens every year.

I'll gloss over the fact that DD incorrectly called "Heart of Oak", the march of the Royal Navy, "Hearts of Oak", and even the fact that I believe that, when mentioning the Fleet Air Arm Association, he explained that the FAA as the Navy's "air force".

However, the "highlight" that got me going was when, as the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers veterans marched past, DD described how those who were unfortunately captured by the Chinese in Korea (after the Battle of the Imjin River in 1951) fashioned "red and white roses out of paper" in their prison camp.:eek: He corrected himself a few seconds later (or, more likely was corrected) and explain that he meant "hackles". I should think that that one raised a few "hackles" of a different kind, given the hard-earned origin of the red and white hackle. Such nice boys the Fighting Fifth, but not flowerboys.:ok:

Jack

[Timelord]

I always thought it was "Heart of Oak" - the stuff ships were made of.

[Union Jack]

I always thought it was "Heart of Oak" - the stuff ships were made of

Good Lord, Timelord, then you always thought correctly!

Jack

[Blanket Stacker]

DD also described CGS as 'the general who had laid a wreath earlier', rather than being able to name him, when a camera picked him up on a balcony watching the veterans march past.

[barnstormer1968]

"Sorry, Wensley D,

The Army Air Corps in 1944 comprised the Parachute Regt and Glider Pilot Regt, although it was a larger admin set up - it is strictly correct.

You will occasionally see reference to 'The Glider Pilot regt, Army Air Corps' or 'Parachute Regt .....'

However, this does not detract from the fact that Dimbleblunder is a useless presenter and should be put out to grass. There are frequently errors in what he says and those who listen to 'Any Questions' are also up in arms about them.

BTW Mrs CP thinks she knows the female pilot with medals galore, who led the RAF contingent at the Royal Albert hall last night. Is she a helio pilot (ex Army) called Penny G...... by any chance?"

The commentator was purely referring the the AAC as he said this. He was explaining who the folks in sky blue berets were. The glider pilots march in a separate formation of their own, and obviously wear a different head dress.

From (poor) memory he was commenting on 656 Sqn

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=6805256) http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=6805256&noquote=1)

[Cornish Jack]

Possibly the right thread for this comment.
Just finished Sunday supper and had the usual accompaniment of the Beeb's 'Avarice Road Show';. How utterly, utterly soul-wrenching in content versus the more usual 'W'os it worth, then?' The final item summed it all up, really but the extraordinarily apt vision of the memorials to those 'Shot at Dawn' will stay with me for a very long time.

[foldingwings]

But why, oh why did the boy Stanhope (1SL) take up an initial position to the left of CDS! Even CGS and CAS were alert to his error and left him a space to allow him to recover his embarrassment.

Foldie:D

[Chugalug2]

Dimbleby seems to have got a lot of flak here, and for good reason. It is not so much the inaccuracies, numerous though they are, but rather the feeling that it doesn't really matter much if he doesn't get it right anyway, it's only the Forces after all! That underlying attitude permeates a lot of BBC coverage, of Remembrance, Trooping, Lord Mayor's Show, etc, etc. My question is why should it be the Beeb anyway? Why can't Sky or ITN cover these great National Parades as lead broadcaster for a change? If you've ever cut from the Beeb Trooping (and the endless talk of "special salutes" and so on) to Sky News's coverage you can hear the Massed Bands more clearly because, a. they are not turned down and b. because they don't continually talk over them. It is only a matter of time before HM herself gets a beeb mike in her face and asked, "How does it feel like to be here today, Your Majesty?" When I watch these events, unequalled elsewhere, I want to do just that, ie watch and listen. Perhaps those who hanker for the "Dimbleby touch" could get it via subtitles. The opportunities for even more howlers would then seem endless...

[airborne_artist]

I'm struggling to understand why (unless you were watching in a duty crewroom, overseas or on Iplayer) you were tucked up in front of the telly at 11.00 GMT?

Mme Artist and I attended the war memorial service in the local town (nice 11.02 flypast by Puma x2) and then retired to a hostelry where we bought drinks for and listened to veterans. Daughter #3 then drove us home in time for a leg of roast lamb at 14.30 ;)

[bast0n]

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll301/tallbronzedgod/TwicetheKit.jpg

Overheard at Farnborough in 1964. " Are you anything to do with aviation?"

"I don't know, I'm in the RAF"

Good evening!!

[Chugalug2]

AA:
I'm struggling to understand
and I'm struggling to understand why you didn't hit Record on your way out to said local ceremony, like the rest of us!

[muppetofthenorth]

My question is why should it be the Beeb anyway? Why can't Sky or ITN cover these great National Parades as lead broadcaster for a change?

Cop out answer? Any tv feature involving religion - as the Parade today arguably does - cannot be interrupted by advertisements. Neither ITN nor Sky would be willing to give up ~90minutes of their airtime without some form of revenue stream.

[Photoplanet]

I wear a poppy pin badge from the start of November... And I wear a paper poppy from the first occasion that I meet a veteran with a collection tin..... From the moment every year when I donate in person, I wear a RBL paper poppy.....

[Chugalug2]

Not a cop out at all, MOTN, a fair point and I suspect a correct one. It would be interesting to know though if they have ever been asked. Interrupting the Trooping for a "word from our sponsors" would be even worse than words from Dumblebum! So that leaves us with the Beeb I guess. I seem to remember that this year's Trooping offered those with Red Buttons the opportunity to press them to extinguish all commentary. Was this available today? I recorded it to watch later so wouldn't know, but hopefully if this becomes the norm it might offer a refuge for those like me allergic to the drivel that passes for commentary on such BBC Broadcasts, and in fairness to Dimbleby not only from him!
Oh and while I'm in rant mode (thanks OP!) why do they always cut away from the March Past before the Cadet Contingents go through? Some of the smartest troops on parade every year.

[Pontius Navigator]

I believe Sky can run without adverts. I recall that Shock and Awe was broadcast continuously and without commentary. Now that was true news broadcasting.

[Tankertrashnav]

Bit of thread drift - we sang "Oh God our Help in Ages Past" in a stiff South Easterly round the war memorial in a Cornish country churchyard after the 2 minutes silence this morning. A wry smile went round the gathering as we came to the line "our shelter from the stormy blast".

We could have done with it!

Very little pomp - a wavery last post from two girls in the local silver band - only one rep in uniform from nearby Culdrose - but in its own way as moving as the events in Whitehall.

And no Dimbleby!

[The Blue Parrot]

Due to being stuck in front of BFBS at 15:30 watching the uninterrupted Sky News coverage of the Whitehall Service, Mrs BP did her bit and went to the local War Memorial in the Village, arriving at 10:35. At 10:45, the Vicar announced that everyone would head back to the church for a Service starting at 11:00. Mrs BP naturally asked about the 2 Minute Silence to be told "we did that at 10:30" :ugh:

Needless to say, she was not impressed!

[airborne_artist]

Chugalug2 AA:


and I'm struggling to understand why you didn't hit Record on your way out to said local ceremony, like the rest of us!

I don't have a recording device. I try to avoid the idiot box ;)

[scotbill]

While Dimbleby on Question Time often raises my hackles (sic) too, I think some of the nitpickers on this thread clearly have no concept of the pressures of live commentary and otherwise need to get a life.
We found the BBC programme very moving and have little confidence that any of the commercial broadcasters would have done it better.
No amount of homework will give a reporter the sort of encyclopaedic knowledge of the multifarious personalities and units (many now sadly extinct) that some here seem to expect.
Whatever our detailed knowledge of the part of the services we were part of, how many of us could identify facets of the others in the few seconds a TV camera allows?
The broadcaster has to cater for average uninformed viewers (the majority) as well as the vociferous specialists waiting to pounce on any slip up. In the future, however, the red button may be used more often to provide a commentary-free version.

[Pontius Navigator]

scotbill, you have a point except that DD is a first-rate highly professional broadcaster who should be backed by an equally first rate team. The personalities and units were not a random seletion of characters popping up here and there but a carefully organised parade. Long before and unit was in camera shot someone should have been doing a tally, looking for the photogenic, briefing DD etc.

In those famous words from a 1939 action - Anticipation.

[FODPlod]

In the past, DD has been accompanied by a knowledgeable military historian who chipped in with corrections or additional detail. Where was he this year? Were his interruptions too disruptive for the Beeb's liking? I say bring him (or someone similar) back.

[500N]

Scotbill

That's saying that mediocrity is acceptable, although I agree with PN re needs to be backed up by a team feeding the correct information on who is coming into the shot. PPPP = PPP

"have no concept of the pressures of live commentary". I think shouting orders out from memory on a public parade ground at a graduation or other, very public parade in the correct sequence in front of the general public and higher ranks would be more pressure than live commentary where you have back up staff and notes.

Not sure what the UK marches and broadcasts are like but the whole sequence is known in advance here and published. Can't be too hard to do a bit of background research.

Just my HO.

[scotbill]

That's saying that mediocrity is acceptable, although I agree with PN re needs to be backed up by a team feeding the correct information on who is coming into the shot. If you think BBC programmes are mediocre, it would be interesting to have your assessment of Australian output.

For me one of the stars of the Edinburgh Tattoo in recent years was Drum Major Brian Sutherland who had the responsibility for marshalling 250 assorted pipers and drummers on the sloping esplanade of Edinburgh Castle.
However, there is no comparison between an officer shouting orders with which he has been familiar throughout his career and a general reporter trying to deal with such a complex event as this when he cannot anticipate what cutaway shots his director may arbitrarily select from the many cameras at his disposal. Bear in mind the presenter has a continuous stream of chat coming into his earpiece while trying to invest the event with the solemnity it requires.
Whatever our irritation with Dimbleby on QT, his voice - like his father's - does have the essential gravitas. Although armchair critics assume TV presenting would be well within their compass, the truth is that the much-criticised salaries demonstrate that the skill is relatively rare.
Yes it would be good to have a specialist adviser - but how many have the necessary knowledge of all the other services as well as a professional broadcasting technique?
My point remains: for those unable to be present at a live ceremony, the BBC programme was a moving and ultimately uplifting recognition of sacrifice. A pity to let irritation with those slips which are inevitable in live broadcasting spoil the emotion.

[500N]

"If you think BBC programmes are mediocre, it would be interesting to have your assessment of Australian output."

Australian TV can be worse.

However, I did watch the wedding and I was not that impressed, especially oe of the commentators who is a pompous axx. I think he is a Royal reporter.

Edit
The person I was talking about was James Whittaker, Royal Editor for The Mirror.

Not too sure what you think of him but I wasn't impressed.

[Union Jack]

Scotbill

Whilst applauding your desire for a balanced view, may I refer you to the opening words of my post:

The advertising slogan "Should have gone to S***savers!" comes very much to mind, and certainly could explain several of the Dimbleballs TH accurately quotes, particularly 1, 2, 6, and 7 (and perhaps 3 as well).

Whilst not wishing to "nit pick", there's a huge difference between displaying knowledge and expecting the high-priced help to read a script correctly on such an important occasion. :ok:

Jack

[scotbill]

In a live programme your notes can only be guidance. Try leafing through a sheaf of notes when something unexpected comes up.
I had tried to make the point that many shots require spontaneous comment. So it is not just a question of reading a script - which many a news broadcaster has fouled up.
Don't recall the detail of the wedding but Whittaker is not a BBC presenter.

[Chugalug2]

scotbill:
the BBC programme was a moving and ultimately uplifting recognition of sacrifice.
No, Scotbill, it was the Remembrance Ceremony at Whitehall that was a moving and uplifting recognition of sacrifice. It is the BBC coverage of it that is in question, not the ceremony itself. What is it about organisations whose title commences with the word "British"? Lofty contempt for their competitors, a smug self satisfaction with their own performance, and an arrogant dismissal of any questioning of their standards, all seem to unite such bodies. The Beeb is no longer content to respectfully commentate on our great National fixtures, but instead wants to become a part of them, be it at Wimbledon or Whitehall. The notion that only a Dimbleby can preside over such coverage, for want in others of "Gravitas", is an indication of the absurd self delusion at work here. When we stood united against a common foe the BBC spoke for the nation with voices such as Dimbleby senior who were rightly and universally respected. Now that the BBC sees bankers, the capitalist system and the Tories as the enemies and speaks on behalf of "hard working families" no such unity or authority remains nor respect earned. It is just another broadcaster, and one with a political agenda at that. Being obliged to pay for it, on pain of a criminal charge if I do not, leaves me less than enamoured of its insidiously creeping takeover of our national psyche.

[500N]

Scotbill
"In a live programme your notes can only be guidance. Try leafing through a sheaf of notes when something unexpected comes up.
I had tried to make the point that many shots require spontaneous comment. So it is not just a question of reading a script - which many a news broadcaster has fouled up."

Well, that is what sorts the amateurs from the professionals. As I said before, PPPP = PPP so if a presenter hasn't done the work beforehand, of course he is going to stuff it up. A professional should take it in his stride with maybe a small pause. If you don't know what you are talking about, then someone else should be doing it.

What's the difference between "something unexpected comes up" for a presenter and "something unexpected comes up" during the teaching of a lesson, be it theory, weapons, drill, navigation, tactics or whatever, it's not part of the script (lesson plan) but you have to think on your feet and carry on.
(I would guess that a fair few on here would have instructed in some sort of military subject during their career since a fair few have said they were instructors and I would say that not all have gone to plan).

Valid point re Whittaker not being BBC, although that wasn't much better as per some of the reviews afterwards.
.

[scotbill]

OK guys - you win - I am out of here.

I've done my share of BBC criticism in my time but it remains superior to most of the competition.
Some of you betray the same alarming lack of understanding of what is involved in broadcasting that we as pilots complain of when the general public comment on our own specialised world.

[charliegolf]

Didn't bother me at all really. What's important to me is, that in a world where 'not giving a toss' is quickly becoming the norm, the BBC devoted a huge chunk of coverage to the topic. I don't class Dimble's performance as being in the 'don't give a toss' category. Remember (no pun), Pprune has a very specialised font of knowledge which it can bring to bear in criticising something. I'm surprised his spoken grammar hasn't been critted yet:).

CG

[HighTow]

I'd love to comment but sadly getting any coverage of events is impossible "over here" and the BBC, bless them, have decided that you can only watch the iPlayer coverage from the UK. One in the eye for the commonwealth members who put their lives on the line or ex-pats who happen to be somewhere the BBC doesn't serve. Come on - why on earth does the Cenotaph ceremony have to be land-locked? Surely ALL of us can partake?

[doubledolphins]

I sort of swithched off last night watching the highlights after DD(no relation) refered to the "Massed Bands of the Household Division", tell that to the Marines. (And RAF)

But I did have a little chuckle, and please forgive me for this, DD(nr) descibed the President of the Merchant Navy Association as having an Uncle who was sunk and her Father as "missing for two years". As the son of a merchant seaman I can identify with that. But that's the point about DD(nr) he didn't give dates or a reason, so it sounded funny and it shouldn't.

One final thought. When will they show the faces of the Naval Guard during O God Our Help in Ages Past? You see they are all singing, as HMQ has made it known that she likes her sailors to sing. It takes three weeks to learn it off by heart, but we do.

[Pontius Navigator]

"something unexpected comes up" during the teaching of a lesson, be it theory, weapons, drill, navigation, tactics or whatever, it's not part of the script (lesson plan) but you have to think on your feet and carry on.
(I would guess that a fair few on here would have instructed in some sort of military subject during their career since a fair few have said they were instructors and I would say that not all have gone to plan).

Sort of thread drift, did a course at Tidworth. It was run by an ex-Army WO, REME at a guess, and a completely disparate group of studes. I think the 6 of us had about 150 years of service between us. During the lesson yarns and stories abounded. But at the end of the lecture we discovered we had covered the whole of thee topic for that lecture and finished on time. We didn't even notice how the WO steered it. Class.

[Al R]

4. Saying the RAF Regt is "the military part of the RAF." (stand by for incomers)

Say what you like about the rest of it, but in terms of delivering an accurate and concise commentary, I thought his narrative was at times, flawless.

[NutLoose]

And on a poignant note, something that shows what Remembrance is all about by the spadeful........

A little Belgian boy doing his tribute....


Little Belgian boy saluting Canadian Troops. [VIDEO] (http://www.wimp.com/belgianboy/)

Nice to see they returned the compliment to him.

[charliegolf]

Wonderful!

:D:D:D:D