What happened to security in Kabul if you go tech on a flydubai aircraft

[Spit The Dummie]

Here are some quotes from flydubai Operations Management:


"The safety and security of our Employees is and will always be upmost in our mind, if we believe the situation to be unsafe we would cease all operations."

"We deeply care about your safety and welfare and will apply the upmost diligence and attention to that end. Be assured we will constantly monitor the dynamic environment and do what is needed to protect YOU—the most valuable asset of flydubai."

"We deeply care about your safety and welfare."

But what follows is the reality of what those statements really mean...

Date: 08/Nov/2011. Flydubai flight number: FDB304. Aircraft: A6-FDM.

Aircraft went tech due to problem with anti-ice, and with no engineering support available in Kabul.

Due to lack of trust in the procedures put in place for such events, the crew was not comfortable about leaving either the aircraft or the airport.

The company used by flydubai to provide security & assistance to its Kabul flights had left the aircraft.

Whilst they waited onboard, an armed Afghan military squad (Afghans Assume Control of Kabul Airport (http://www.isaf.nato.int/article/isaf-releases/afghans-assume-control-of-kabul-airport.html)) boarded the aircraft and then escorted the crew ‘under protest’, at gunpoint, off the aircraft and out of the airport.

This resulted in the crew, which consisted of one Captain (male), 1 F/O (female), 4 cabin Crew (females) being abandoned, in the middle of a war zone. Then having to find their own unsecured transport, to an unsecured hotel, in the middle of the night, in Kabul.... WTF ?!!!

The fact that there was no kidnap, or injuries, or loss of life, sustained by this crew, was purely a matter of shear luck!

Flydubai management has consistently told its crews that a foolproof security plan was in place for such events.

But, the one time that it was needed, it completely fell apart. So which fool put that plan in place and why are we not surprised at the outcome?!

The concerns of all flydubai’s aircrew have now been proved 100% right regarding the legitimacy of such plans put in place by the Manager Safety & Security. The competence of the Manager Safety & Security was always in doubt, but now his incompetence has been proven beyond all doubt!

To reestablish confidence in Safety & Security department, and for having put its aircrew in a life threatening situation, flydubai's Manager Safety & Security should be fired on the spot !

[latetonite]

Trying to use common sense, I would like to know which anti-ice system could make you go tech at Kabul?

[I.R.PIRATE]

Lucky they weren't in Johannesburg.

[tothepoint]

All it does highlight is that the security measures put in place for such an event occuring are not good enough and sub standard, especially for a known war zone!! I think they have been lucky so far and have become a little complacent flying into such places.

Maybe a PBS will invite those that like to go to such places, possibly involving a little extra pay, leaving the rest to do other things. Common sense and a reality check is needed.

[three eighty]

The nature of technical problem is irrelevant. Its the support that was provided after the fact that is in question here.

[6000PIC]

I won`t be applying to flydubai now or anytime in the future given their total disregard for the safety of their crews. What a miserable example of how not to run an airline. You are either desparate or foolhardy to want to fly there.
Welcome to the bottom of the food chain.
Even Ryanair would at least see that basic security was achieved . ( for a fee of course ! )

[Spit The Dummie]

Royston Vasey & I.R.PIRATE: please do not make light of this scenario.
For those of us who are forced (bonded) to endure it, your comments are not welcome, not funny, and detract from the serious problem that exists within flydubai in terms of its Flight Safety Department's complete lack of credibility at its top most level.

latetonite: the 'climate of fear' engendered by flydubai's Manager Safety & Security is such that few, if any, pilots within the company are prepared to show any flexibility outside of the literal confines of what's written within the MEL / CDL, and that's probably a very good thing given the circumstances, verging upon being belligerently so. You might call it a "damned if you do, and damned you if you don't" mentality, though let me repeat again the message about the 'climate of fear' engendered by flydubai's Manager Safety & Security.

In this particular Kabul instance the Captain (who I personally know is a TOP GUY !!!) correctly stuck to the official line within the MEL and, as a result, the aircraft returned to stand and was grounded (Kabul or not).

That aside, the really worryingly aspect of this is that the much vaulted & promoted (by FZ management) procedure for an AOG in Kabul (a war zone by any other name!), being something put in place by flydubai's Manager Safety & Security, proved (much as expected by the vast majority of flydubai's aircrew) to be both an appalling & very dangerous failure!!!

That none of flydubai's aircrew are surprised at this outcome speaks volumes about the lack of ability & integrity with which they view the Manager Safety & Security, and it's almost an insult to integrity to suggest he should resign over this (as he never has had any integrity!). That said, if he doesn't tender his resignation over this, Gaith really should sack him!

As a result of this event alone, the integrity of flydubai's Safety & Security Department will remain damaged beyond all recognition for a very long time to come, and especially so all the time that that man (WDA) is at its helm, he is a disgrace to the the title of Safety & Security Manager!

[Amdram]

IR PIRATE,

Are you seriously suggesting that the crew would have been worse off in Johannesburg? Whilst parts of it are very violent and you would have to be completely daft to visit, there are many other safe and pleasant areas to go. Admittedly you should be pretty streetwise but aside from that no real problems. After all, EK can fill two 773 and an A388 every day so people want to go.

Kabul on the other hand......

Do you read the news? Are you aware of the ongoing security situation there? Would you prefer to stop in Kabul than Joburg? If you would then go right ahead because I know where I and probably everyone else on this forum, website and world would rather be!

I hope that a lot is learnt about this very unfortunate episode very quickly. Either somewhere as safe as Fort Knox (USBD - Wikipedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Knox_Bullion_Depository) with as much security and protection is found or and rather more hopefully, an aircraft and engineer are dispatched (so we don't get two AOG) to rescue the crew without delay avoiding the need to nightstop.


6000PIC - You might not be the only one.........

[Whoop Whoop Wake Up]

So this incident was on the 8th - 5 days ago.

Presumably, despite the evident failings of the safety department, the management have at least done the right thing by apprising the employees of the situation and suspending flights pending the outcome of an investigation?

[Spit The Dummie]

Whoop Whoop Wake Up wrote:
So this incident was on the 8th - 5 days ago.

Presumably, despite the evident failings of the safety department, the management have at least done the right thing by apprising the employees of the situation and suspending flights pending the outcome of an investigation?Yes there has been a very vague letter about this from the Chief Pilot a few days ago (with nothing since!), and from where did you get the idea that flydubai has suspended flights to Kabul ?!

[I.R.PIRATE]

Amdram -

I have lived in Kabul for the last 6 years.

More people die unnatural deaths in JHB than Kabul on any day of the week.

And that is not even mentioning rapes, robberies, muggings, assaults, road accidents...

So Now what??

[EladElap]

I'm with I.R. Pirate on this one... JHB way worse than KBL....

If any of you Flydubai boys/girls go U/S in KAIA, drop me a PM... got enough spare beds in the bomb shelter for the entire crew, and plenty of home brew to go around.

Far far worse places to go AOG compared to Kabul. Most of sub Saharan Africa north of the Limpopo springs to mind.

[Amdram]

IR PIRATE,

I don't doubt that people die in Johannesburg on a daily basis as you described. I am aware of how dangerous it is but given the choice would rather stop there than Kabul. If you feel safe in Kabul and having lived there for six years I guess you do then good for you. I would wager however that most people given a choice wouldn't choose to go there for any reason.

To whoop whoop, the flights are still
going to Kabul. Not sure they were ever suspended?

[Rocketmann]

For those of us who have learned to survive in the "war zone", use a little common sense. Sit in Kabul where you are a sitting duck, (unless you know how not to act like a sitting duck and will experience a high survival rate), or tanker max fuel and fly lower altitude.

What, not acceptable in my company Op's Man. The you are in the wrong sector of the World. Make it work or die.....that's how it is in the lower tier airlines.

Not about right or wrong, it's all about survival. Unless you are a Flag Carrier in this part of the World, you ain't JACK!

[I.R.PIRATE]

mmm, so as I thought, SA news is clearly not making it onto the world stage.

Your blinkered view is saddening Amdram.

I used to walk around all over Kabul at night. I would never do that in JHB.

I used to drive with the windows open in Kabul - in JHB I would never do that.

I could go away for weeks from Kabul, knowing my house will not be tampered with. I can't do that in JHB.

I could leave my headset and any valuables in the aircraft in Kabul. In JHB I can never risk doing that.

In Kabul, children play on the streets. In JHB they could never do that.

Catch a wake up.

[Flat Cap]

Good to see thread creep is still alive and well in the ME forum.

Makes you wonder which other parts of Part C and Saftey and Security brief are a complete work of fiction.

Rumor is the D. Spaceman, was unaware the Green Zone was locked down 22-06 each night and that you PPR to get in anyway! Maybe we need to pre-plan our tech stops.

F-C

[three eighty]

More people die unnatural deaths in JHB than Kabul on any day of the week.

And that is not even mentioning rapes, robberies, muggings, assaults, road accidents…

Ok then seeing as living in Kabul for 6 years has qualified you to make wide sweeping statements on SA crime statistics would you care to share the figures and their source with us or would I be getting ahead of myself saying you have no such figures to back up your statement?

[Bergkamp10]

Great point indeed, well within MEL's?

Hopefully they could of obtained a ferry flight permit from OCC/GCAA???

[I.R.PIRATE]

How do you know there is a 380 pilot in a room?


Anyway, I digress.

My home just happens to be 'near' JHB. Think I am pretty qualified to make the comparison.

Like it or leave it.

Just stop being girls about flying into Kabul. Especially if you don't even intentionally night stop there. There is no need.

[three eighty]

How do you know there is a 380 pilot in a room?

An educated rebuttle to back up your previous qualified statement.
You now have me stumped on both! So how do you know there is a 380 pilot in the room? Living in Kabul and Johannesburg qualify you to answer that one too?

The Moon is made of Cheese. I know this because I live in Dubai and sometimes Pretoria.

But I too digress...

The fact is, the moon being made of cheese has as much to do with Living in Kabul as South African crime statistics have to do with an airline crew being left to their own devices in a country that even the US army struggles to maintain a semblence of security in.

[Flat Cap]

Exactly so 3-80.

It's not about how likely the crew were to get shot mugged or blown up but much to do with glaring disparity of company words against company action and all the assurances about what would happen if crews got unexpectedly stuck in KBL. Much was made about how the safety and security of its crews is paramount. Crews would be under escort and guidance, they would stop in "the green zone" Ya-da Ya-da Ya-da.

The first sniff of a down route tech issue and the Spaceman's assurances and security "plan" folds like a cheap Dragon Mart sun lounger. No mention in the brief of being ejected from the aircraft under protest on the wrong end of the local garrison commander's rifle. Then left to stand in outside a deserted terminal in shirt sleeves on a November night in the mountains for 2 hours. Before managing to beg a lift in the private cars of a ground agent and his friend. Then pitching up to an unknown hotel somewhere in a safe or maybe unsafe (how are the crew to know) area of down-town Kabul.

I am sure Mogadishu will feature in our destinations very shortly along with guidance that any news stories we may have seen about a civil war have greatly exaggerated and its really an ideal holiday destination.

Here I'm sure sure i know that smell. Sheep ..no that's not it. Cow...hmmm maybe.....Oh I've got yeah bull**** that's it!

F-C

[I.R.PIRATE]

Now Mogadishu is the one place I would not mess around in. Good luck with that one.

[EladElap]

Just so the Skydxb boys don't get carried away... there are far worse places that the big boys fly to. Pesh - OPPS, EK, EY, Gulfair, Saudi.... FFKS EK flies to ORMM! Put your big girl panties on, sluk some cement, and harden up boys and girls...

[SKYWRITER1]

IR Pirate stop trolling and grow up. Its not a pissing contest about who's been to the most dangerous place.

Flydubai crews don't give a toss about which is worse - Jo'burg or Kabul. What they care about is their safety, and their families. Please don't bore us with the resign if you don't like it line, we've heard it all before. Asking for suitable security to be provided in the event of an AOG is not unreasonable behavior. It should be a basic part of the airlines operation. We may be low cost, but FD is a U.A.E flag carrier, not a 2 bit cowboy outfit dreamt up around a camp fire.

What happened is wrong - simple. And what the crews want is something done about it - simple

[I.R.PIRATE]

Crew can start by at least packing a jumper or something warm when flying to climates like Kabul. I can't believe they are upset about standing outside in the 'shirt sleeves' wow, how bad can it get?

Its not a pissing contest in the least, all I am saying is the amount of noise about flying to Kabul, by Skuddlebutt (or whatever they call themselves on the radio) crew is disproportionate to the actual threat level. There are much worse places.

And let me add I do feel that crews need decent support when operating to places away from home base, but there is no need for the hysterics about Kabul.

[Flyer1015]

How do you know there is a 380 pilot in a room?
He'll tell you...

[ManaAdaSystem]

Taliban car bomb attack kills US troops in Kabul | World news | The Observer (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/29/kabul-suicide-bomb-deaths)

All is quiet in the Afghan capital...

[Flyer1015]

I think a wing or an engine would have to be missing before I wrote anything up in Kabul! :cool:


Anti-ice problem? What anti-ice problem? You mean the one we'll get at 30,000 feet on the way back from Kabul to Dubai? :ok:

[captplaystation]

At last, a common sense solution !

[Tolerant Dubai]

So an anti ice system failure that you wouldn’t notice until 30,000 feet on the way home....... in icing conditions. A little cavalier if you ask me.

How can this be a common sense solution?

If it’s a no go item, it’s a no go. The fact that the flydubai procedures put in place to assist pilots in this situation fell apart at the first hurdle, is NOT the pilots fault.

:ugh:

[Gulfstreamaviator]

At the end of the day down route common sense must prevail....

I can promise you that many of the BIG boys will also take this view...and given a risk assesment, the crews might well agree.

Speaking from the corporate world where if we have a defect in out tech log, we have one too many... (defects not beers.)
For some reason a defect in the tech log is seen a a major defect in the companies enginerring division.

Glf

(standing by for incoming.)

[BigGeordie]

Well in my company the MEL isn't for "guidance". It is a legal document and flying outside it would certainly invalidate your insurance.

[Tolerant Dubai]

"MEL is for guidance”

Seriously folks, I can’t believe what i’m reading! Big Geordie is spot on.

If the MEL says not to dispatch, it is not then up to you to make a decision on whether or not to agree with it.

Do you honestly think the company would back you if you then got into difficulties due to dispatching with a defect, which the MEL clearly states do not dispatch?

[Jeffdh17]

Thanks for the laugh IR Pirate! I'm going to try using the Skuttlebutt call sign from here on out.......:D

[I.R.PIRATE]

For the first few months they were flying, I seriously thought that was the callsign - I didn't know about the airline at all, just thought there was someone using Skuddlebutt....

Serious.

although these days I find the "Sooooooooper" (with the obligatory deepening of voice) of certain oversized EK folk much more amusing.

[Jet II]

Aircraft went tech due to problem with anti-ice, and with no engineering support available in Kabul.

Due to lack of trust in the procedures put in place for such events, the crew was not comfortable about leaving either the aircraft or the airport.

The company used by flydubai to provide security & assistance to its Kabul flights had left the aircraft.

Whilst they waited onboard, an armed Afghan military squad (Afghans Assume Control of Kabul Airport (http://www.isaf.nato.int/article/isaf-releases/afghans-assume-control-of-kabul-airport.html)) boarded the aircraft and then escorted the crew ‘under protest’, at gunpoint, off the aircraft and out of the airport.

This resulted in the crew, which consisted of one Captain (male), 1 F/O (female), 4 cabin Crew (females) being abandoned, in the middle of a war zone. Then having to find their own unsecured transport, to an unsecured hotel, in the middle of the night, in Kabul.... WTF ?!!!


Spit, can you just clarify one point. When you say that the Security Company had left the aircraft, why was this?. Had the crew declined an offer of escort to the hotel?

[Flyer1015]

"MEL is for guidance”

Seriously folks, I can’t believe what i’m reading! Big Geordie is spot on.

If the MEL says not to dispatch, it is not then up to you to make a decision on whether or not to agree with it.

Do you honestly think the company would back you if you then got into difficulties due to dispatching with a defect, which the MEL clearly states do not dispatch?

LOL! No disagreement there. But we were not arguing whether or not we disregard what an MEL book states. ONCE the MEL is open, you must follow it. For you to consider the MEL means you have a started an open write up yourself. The point I was making is there could be an occasion where going out of a war zone and taking care of an issue later (write up later) could be a potential solution. And lets be honest, if you've been in airline ops for any decent amount of time (5+ years) you have seen that. Your push-to-talk swtich not working? How many people actually write it up and fix it at an out station, as oppose to just flying back to base and then "finding" out it doesn't work? It can happen, and it does.

[RandyBMC]

Couple of quick corrections -

There is no way it would have been prudent to fly without the wing anti-ice working. The current ATIS and visual conditions were 7C and rain, with moderate icing reported to 10,000'. The crew had also flown the airplane in to KBL and accrued quite a bit of icing on the descent. Moot point, all this BS about flying with the MEL, legal or not.

Second, though physically menacing, the local Afghan "Colonel" did not threaten by pulling out the rifle or any gun. It was made clear to the crew, however, that it would be VERY bad not to get off the aircraft, as the Afghan mentioned was a seriously bad dude.

As far as standing in the parking lot in a T-shirt, it shouldn't have happened. They were standing in an area they had been forced into with no plan in place from the company. That is the serious issue - the company policies did not work. The crew had tried to de-identify by removing uniform clothing, which is why he was standing in a t-shirt (a smart move in my eyes).

The company has since said that there are now proper procedures in place, and an investigation is ongoing as to why these policies did not hold up under fire, pardon the pun. The problem is, the policies can't be tested unless we have another AOG. The only options are to trust the company or talk to the flight operations office about not doing the trips to Afghanistan.

Hope that helps!
Randy

[three eighty]

although these days I find the "Sooooooooper" (with the obligatory deepening of voice) of certain oversized EK folk much more amusing.

Pirate you are w@nker
Get over yourself once and for all and accept that the term "super" is used because it is required by the myriad of authorities and the company not because the boys get a hard on by using the terminology!!! Grow up

[EladElap]

Well done guys! This thread was published in its entirety in the January 2012 edition of Afghan Scene magazine. "What Pilots really think about flying into Kabul Airport"...

Evidently we are all a bunch of girls.... :}:}:}:}:}

[Elephant flyer]

Randy you say, "The company has since said that there are now proper procedures in place." That's what they said before so why on earth should we believe this statement, when it comes from the very person who failed us so badly. The company are clearly more interested in rhetoric rather than substance - after all it's cheaper.
Some months have since passed and one of the problems - Mr Spaceman, is still in place. Wasting space in the office and consuming valuable Oxygen.
The company should clearly get a right and proper honest man for the job.

[RandyBMC]

I'm not debating the Safety Department, but just so you know, there has since been a tech issue in KBL. I know personally that the crew was taken care of by the procedures that the Safety Department put in place. So, the bottom line is that the new procedures have been tested, and at least this time (as opposed to last time), they worked.

Randy