Come Fly with Me (The Story of Pan Am)

[Flying Lawyer]

Interesting documentary about Pan Am on BBC2 this evening, relating how it played a key role in bringing jets into commercial airlines and the start of what became affordable air travel.

There was more emphasis on cabin than cockpit but it was interesting to hear former air stewardesses recalling their time with Pan Am with great affection and obvious loyalty to the company.
Perhaps the golden age of air travel?

Hard to believe it's almost exactly 20 years since the last flight of what had been one of the most successful airlines in the world.

The programme will be repeated next Wednesday, 16th November.
Not fantastic, but worth watching IMHO.

[Krystal n chips]

FL

Worth watching I agree, albeit more nostalgic in content than expanding on the operational aspects of the airline. The development of the long haul routes across the Pacific for example and no mention of the extensive Berlin based operations at all plus only a passing mention of their US Gov't operations.

There were some interesting anecdotes from the former cabin crew however...all of whom seemed to have led, "an active social life"...as they say in polite circles....and all credit to them for doing so.

I was amused by their perceptions as to the lack of sophistication regarding pilots....and the "lets go for the cheapest option...and split the bill" when eating out...no change there then...;)....and the diplomatic references to "difficult passengers ".

The line about the crews being so well trained, they knew how to change an engine was a little tenous I thought..they probably did...in theory at least.

Some interesting shots of the ground crew on the flying boats...in immaculate white uniforms, complete with hat...and up to their necks in water.

Overall, a nice soft documentary....and some equally nostalgic shots of the 707's / 727's as a bonus.

[cyflyer]

How long was this documenatry ? Any chance someone can record it and post it online for us that don't live in the UK ?

[henry crun]

If the story I am about to relate is true, and I have no reason to believe it is not, the remark about the hosties (as they were called in those days) leading an active social life was true.

Back in the days of 707's when various airlines, including PanAm, used to slip crews at Nadi, the old Mocambo was a favourite watering hole.

One particular evening there was a convivial gathering of various slip crews around the pool, including several RNZAF aircrew who happened to be staying overnight.

As the evening wore on more drink was consumed and the noise level increased, to the point were one PanAm hostie became too noisy and was making a bit of an exhibition of herself, so her captain ordered her to bed.
She could tell by the tone of his voice that he was not joking, so off she staggered.

Some time later when the party was still going strong she appeared from the other side of the pool stark naked, and weaved her way around the various guests tables towards the main party group.

Her captain got up, said "excuse me", picked the lady up, threw her over his shoulder, and walked off.
The party continued, but it was noticeable some time later that the captain had not returned. :)

[gruntie]

How long was this documenatry ? Any chance someone can record it and post it online for us that don't live in the UK ?

Friends resident outside the UK recommend expatshield (http://expatshield.com/) - it gives your PC a UK IP address so you can use BBC iPlayer.

[Flying Lawyer]

cyflyer

BBC iPlayer - Come Fly with Me (The Story of Pan Am) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/i/b017ctdh/)
If that doesn't work for you, a Google search produces several other online sources.


Krystal

I also wish there had been more about the operational aspects.
That said, I enjoyed hearing the anecdotes of the air stewardesses of that era. They clearly enjoyed seeing the world/partying down route but came across as being thoroughly professional in their approach to their jobs.
What particularly struck me was that they were very proud to have been air stewardesses with Pan Am in its heyday and there wasn't even a hint of any 'chip' about the job title.

[cyflyer]

Thanks for the heads-up Gruntie and FL. That expatshield did not work. Infact I downloaded it, and when trying to set it up it wanted to download the same thing again and again, then the antivirus started flashing warning lights. Bad experience. However I did find and watch the Pan Am program, and very interesting it was, at this place which works just fine without having to download anything.

Watch Come.Fly.With.Me.The.Story.Of.Pan.Am.WS.PDTV.XviDC online | NovaMov - Free and reliable flash video hosting (http://www.novamov.com/video/45d961dc421d9)

Enjoy it everyone.

[siftydog]

The intriguing thing for me was the end of the game. And Stelios providing his tuppence worth - he's obviously studied the outfit well.

Curiously, they were at their best when they were the premium niche provider. Perhaps that niche is there again on a point to point basis?

[The SSK]

An urban legend from my early days was that the name 'Pan Am' was coined by a BOAC baggage loader in the 1950s or 60s, when BA handled them at Heathrow.

(not any old baggage loader, but a specific one, very well known on Terminal 3 check-in, where I worked for a year).

[Sultan Ismail]

Tell me I'm wrong but has Pan Am set some record by appearing in two full length feature films under it's own name.

I refer to "2001, A Space Odyssey" and "Catch me if you can". "2001" features a hostess wearing Grip Shoes to assist her in zero gravity. There is a very close close-up of the shoes with the Pan Am logo.


None of the pseudo airline stuff like "Transglobal" in "Airport".

[BEagle]

I thought that it was an excellent programme and recalled the glory days before the awfulness of rubbish airlines such as R**nA*r.

Back in the 1970s, the standards on even the charter airlines which took you to Spain on holiday were far above those of today's wretched bottom-feeding airlines. We still 'dressed up' to travel even from Hurn to Palma!

And who could forget the lovely 'Caledonian Girls'..........:ok:

[A30yoyo]

I shall check what the programme said about Churchill's first Boeing 314 flight when the prog is repeated on Wednesday.

[LAS1997]

I thought the documentary was quite good; it brought back for me memories of September 6th 1970; when my mother, brother, sister and I boarded a Pan Am 747 for our flight from Heathrow to New York; joining my father who was working out there at the time.

I shall never forget (as a six year old) seeing that giant brand new Boeing 747 parked outside the terminal with its APU running and its huge tail and the Pan Am globe on it. It made a great impression on me; how privileged we all felt travelling in this new airliner; we even dressed up for the occasion with my mother and sister in posh frocks and my brother and I in suits; we were only travelling economy!

An amazing flight; seeing those glamorous Pan Am Stewardesses and eating lunch at 40,000 feet over the Atlantic. Even today if I am at an airport and I smell Jet A1; my mind goes immediately back to that Pan Am flight!:D

[brakedwell]

And who could forget the lovely 'Caledonian Girls'..........

Air Europe girls were nice to fly with! :cool:

[bcgallacher]

By the time it went bust PanAm was a travesty of its former self. I am a retired Licenced engineer with 30 years of 747 experience and have never seen aircraft so obviously poorly maintained and in a filthy condition. Shortly after they ceased operations I was involved in operating 2 ex PanAm 747-100's and was appalled at the condition they were in. The aircraft came with ex PanAm cockpit and cabin crew -a better bunch of people to work with would be hard to find,they obviously had a huge loyalty to the company and were devastated when it failed - they deserved better.

[WHBM]

By the time it went bust PanAm was a travesty of its former self. I am a retired Licenced engineer with 30 years of 747 experience and have never seen aircraft so obviously poorly maintained and in a filthy condition.
They had been like this for some time, certainly the cabin interiors. Quite some years before the end these 747s were littered with broken fittings, hi-speed tape holding interior panels together, seats not operatng, etc.

They had lost their way on the revenue side as well. The PA103 Lockerbie accident is more memorable to me than most because I was on BA at that moment en route from London to the USA; we heard nothing, of course, until arrival, when I had to deal with half my family having thought I was on it. 243 pax were lost; this is about a 60% load factor. It happened on 21 December, 4 days before Christmas. My BA flight, and a number of other transatlantic options I had looked at, were of course absolutely full, as you would expect on this day. How Pan Am only managed to sell 60% on a high demand date like this is something I have always wondered.

But the most surprising thing about Pan Am was the sheer number of fatal accidents they had postwar, from the late 1940s right through to Lockerbie and the end. Someone can count them up, but, even for the times, their record was way beyond what any other mainstream carrier was achieving. Now you can pick over individual incidents, but in sum total their losses of passengers and aircraft were way beyond the norm. Their insurance bill must have been astronomical; I wonder how many insurers refused to take them on.

[purplehelmet]

might not be everybody's cup of tea, but a new us drama series set in the 1960's called PAN AM starts tonight at 21.00 on bbc2.
tonight,dean pilots the clipper majestic's first new york to london flight.

[alcockell]

Was watching - interesting they didn't have any Brits in ATC roles - so you heard Gander comms - but nothing from Shanwick etc...

[Exnomad]

Surely doomed from the start with a CEO called Juan Trippe

[Capetonian]

Surely doomed from the start with a CEO called Juan Trippe
You'd think so, but SA has an airline called 1-Time which is still going after roughly 6 years.

[Brit312]

I watched a bit of this series on BBC2 last night and if I am correct this series is set in the early to mid 1960's. If that is correct then what was a flight from New York to London doing operating without a Navigator as I do not remember at that time there being any INS available.

Brit312

[PPRuNe Pop]

Remind me again, when was Shanwick born? :=

[A30yoyo]

I found the last few minutes about Pan Am's downfall gripping but overall the talking heads needed more editing (puzzling concentration on cabin-crew) and the music was distracting and irritating...the story about Churchill's first Boeing 314 flight was bizarre they seemed to be claiming Pan Am flew him and the BOAC flight was bombed by the Germans?....I would have liked to have seen Pan Am's pioneering and ferrying on the 'Fireball' route mentioned (Miami-Brazil-West Africa-Arabia-India-China in WWII)
Trippe's lady assistant hit it on the head when she said it started going downhill after he retired (1968?).... ....Boeing bounced the airline industry into buying the 747 (still too big?) and Pan Am paid a big price for being the first with it. And as the programme said the Lockerbie incident could not be overcome.

[Blacksheep]

...have never seen aircraft so obviously poorly maintained and in a filthy condition.I can vouch for that: 'flying wreckage' would be an apt description.

[JW411]

I would have loved to have flown with PanAm in the days of crossing the Pacific in a Martin 130 or Boeing 314 flying boat back in the 1930s.

By the same token, I would have loved to have flown with Imperial Airways from UK to the Far East at the same time.

Sadly, my experience of PanAm was really based in the 1980s when I commuted frequently across the Pond (I was based in JFK for three years). They had three (747) flights per day between Heathrow and JFK and they were all equally awful as far as the cabin service was concerned.

They seemed to have cornered the market in old boilers who had perfected the art of doing the absolute minimum possible to look after passengers.

Why did I fly with them? My company had an ID75 agreement with them so it was the cheapest way to commute. In other words, it was cheap and you can put up with lots of things for seven hours if it is cheap.

Otherwise, Ryanair wouldn't have more than 200 aeroplanes and move more people per annum than BA!

Sadly, PanAm tried to dine out on their reputation for far too long and refused to wake up in time to realise that the world had changed.

It will also be interesting to see if this TV series picks up on the fact that the old system of the "clipper captain" was always right and his authority could not be questioned.

That worked fairly well when the aeroplanes had propellers and flew at much slower speeds. When they got 707s, this philosophy produced something akin to carnage. Look at the statistics.

[VictorGolf]

You are quite right JW411. On my last flight with Pan Am in late 1982 from Frankfurt to New York, I had to help the hostie up the stairs to the 747 "as my knees are giving trouble"! She was older than my mother, poor dear. With regard to the maintenance of the aircraft, there is an air to air shot of the 747 towards the end of the documentary and it shows quite substantial staining at the base of the fin. Not good for a publicity shot I would have thought.

[Krystal n chips]

There seems to be some slight confusion here....the programme in question was a documentary aired on Saturday last....the series is pure made for TV fiction.

As for "well worked black and dirty 707 / 720's.....er, one never looked too closely at those operated by a " well known Middle East airline noted for it's security "...although one did enjoy knocking seven bells out of the old JT3's T/Rs when they got stuck...as they were prone to do.

[sled dog]

Ah, the JT3 fan reversers. I still have the scars........:ouch:

[con-pilot]

Surely doomed from the start with a CEO called Juan Trippe

Yeah, but look how long it took. :p

[Dan Winterland]

It's slightly ironic that a history of Pan Am should be called 'Come Fly With Me' as the song was originally written to boost the fortunes of TWA. Although I haven't seen the documentary yet, I suspect they used the song.

TWA were in trouble in the mid 50's. The long overdue Lockheed Constellation was sending them under and the owner, Howard Hughes was suffereing assualts from Juan Trippe on several fronts, including a congressional inquiry which was probably instigated by Trippe. Siantra was a friend of Hughes at the time and although denied in his autobiography, the album 'Come Fly With Me' was a thinly disguised advert for TWA, you only have to look at the cover and see the red and white Constellations to realise that it was true

Later, Hughes and Siantra were to have a major falling out. Hughes objected to Sinatra's links to the Mafia, and Sinatra marrying Hughes' ex girlfriend, the actress Ava Gardiner probably didn't help either!


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/45/Comeflywithme.jpg/220px-Comeflywithme.jpg

[WHBM]

It's slightly ironic that a history of Pan Am shoulf be called 'Come Fly With Me' as the song was originally written to boost the fortunes of TWA.
Bit of a thin promotion, then. The ostensibly-elegant destinations mentioned in the song's lyrics are Bombay, Lima and Acapulco. Of these, only Bombay was served by TWA. Lima was Pan Am territory, and neither served Acapulco, which was served by US domestic carriers.

Perhaps Sammy Kahn, the songwriter, was secretly working for Pan Am ! I know the song was later used extensively in TWA advertising - were the non-conforming destinations missed out ?

[His dudeness]

There is a brilliant book on Pan-Am, called "Skygods" written by Robert Gandt.

To me memories of Pan-Am are, that these guys were top aviators, at least the IGS (internal German Service) ones. My father has had close contact with them as an ATCO at Munich and Stuttgart in the sixties, seventies and eighties. One of the last times I saw a Clipper, was a B727 over the Weidacher Hill (NDB approach 08, EDDS) in an almighty sideslip, out of the sun. I was sitting in a C150 for a solo student flight...shortly afterwards they were history...

[Dan Winterland]

I suspect there was some artistic licence because of rhyming.

[Jackbr]

For all this about Pan Am's amazing service, TWA (and BOAC) were generally considered to have far superior cabin service. Pan Am's was often considered "snooty" and "cold" compared to TWA

[alcockell]

Apologies - as humble SLF, all I've got to know is info about the system as at now. Maybe someone could tell me.. when *was* Shanwick created?

[A30yoyo]

The word Shanwick first appears in the Flight Global archive in 1965 with a suggestion that its procedures were operating the previous year.
The Irish aviation authority page suggests Shanwick was operational from 1966
Irish Aviation Authority - North Atlantic Communications - History (http://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=154&n=251)

[TURIN]

I didn't think much of it at all to be honest.

They seemed to think the 747 was 'created' for Pan Am. My understanding is that it was originally a military contract that was won by Lockheed with the Galaxy.

Which explains the hump as it was designed as a freighter with a thru-deck.

They also appeared to promote the idea that without Pan-Am and the 707 the jet age was doomed. A brief mention of the DH Comet being first was swamped later by labouring the point of it's later tragedies.



As for the fictional Pan-Am series. :yuk:

[skytrain10]

I think it is safe to say there was some "poetic licence" in the documentary. As TURIN rightly points out the original 747 design came from a military requirement, which was to be fulfilled by the C-5A. However Pan Am was instrumental in Boeing developing the 747 as a passenger aircraft and highly influenced the design. Arguably had they not done so, then the 747 may not have come about, or at least not as soon as it did.

As for the Comet, I guess we should be grateful it got a mention. Sadly its early problems played in to the hands of Boeing (and Douglas) who produced true transatlantic capable aircraft that DH could simply not compete with.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I heard someone from Boeing saying that when they were developing the 747 there was a strong body of opinion in the airline business that the future of passenger aircraft would be supersonic (the US, Europe, and Russia were developing SSTs back then but none had yet flown), and the back-up plan if that happened was to market the 747 as a civilian freighter.

[A30yoyo]

I think both types had to use Gander depending on winds...the first 6 Pan Am 707s were -100 domestic models...LIFE photos of 1st Comet transatlantic departure on links
jet kauffman - Google Search (http://images.google.com/search?q=jet+kauffman&q=source%3Alife&biw=1440&bih=717&tbm=isch#q=jet+kauffman+source:life&hl=en&tbm=isch&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=517de02f394e05b7&biw=1440&bih=688)

kauffman comet - Google Search (http://images.google.com/search?q=kauffman+comet&q=source%3Alife&biw=1440&bih=717&tbm=isch)


http://images.google.com/search?q=atlantic+kauffman&q=source% (http://images.google.com/search?q=atlantic+kauffman&q=source%3Alife&biw=1236&bih=500&tbm=isch#q=atlantic+kauffman+source:life&hl=en&tbm=isch&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=517de02f394e05b7&biw=1440&bih=688)3Alife&biw=1236&bih=500&tbm=isch#q=atlantic+kauffman+source:life&hl=en&tbm=isch&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=517de02f394e05b7&biw=1440&bih=688 (http://images.google.com/search?q=atlantic+kauffman&q=source%3Alife&biw=1236&bih=500&tbm=isch#q=atlantic+kauffman+source:life&hl=en&tbm=isch&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=517de02f394e05b7&biw=1440&bih=688)

[Chris Scott]

Quote from JW411:
They seemed to have cornered the market in old boilers who had perfected the art of doing the absolute minimum possible to look after passengers.

Love it! And, in the Eighties, some of the most senior of them were to be found gracing the hotel swimming pool at Roberts Field, Monrovia: taking a flying break from running their businesses in the US. Their JFK/DKR/ROB rotation, slipping at ROB, was a very "senior" trip. Rumour had it that, on the way home, they were not to be seen from top of climb ex-Dakar.

Back in the mid-Seventies, as a B707-320 copilot, I had a close shave one night with a PanAm B747 which was operating that service. We were from Gatwick or Lisbon en-route to Recife or Rio, tracking south-westwards over the Atlantic off the West African coast, working Dakar on HF and transmitting blind position reports on 126.9 MHz (as one did/does). We were passing roughly 150nm abeam Dakar at FL350 when I eye-balled the anti-collision lights of an aircraft at a similar cruise level in our 10 o'clock, quickly moving left to right. It was evidently on a north-westerly track. About 25 seconds after it passed in front of us, there was an appalling crash from our front galley as we hit its wake. It was all over in a split second, of course. We called on 126.9 but there was no response. Dakar admitted there was a PanAm 747 DKR/JFK. I often wondered what would have happened, SAR-wise, if we had collided in cloud.

Quote from skytrain10:
As for the Comet, I guess we should be grateful it got a mention. Sadly its early problems played in to the hands of Boeing (and Douglas) who produced true transatlantic capable aircraft that DH could simply not compete with.

That's generally fair, but in this context just a touch unkind. When the Comet finally re-entered service with BOAC as the Comet 4 in 1958, it not only beat PanAm's B707 as the first jet to operate schedules across the North Atlantic by a few weeks, but was capable of reliably operating non-stop in both directions. I was still in short trousers at the time, but didn't PanAm normally have to lob into Shannon on the westbound service?

[Chris Scott]

Quote from A30yoyo:
I think both types had to use Gander depending on winds...the first 6 Pan Am 707s were -100 domestic models...

Yes, and presumably the payload. I guess Gander would have made much more sense westbound than Shannon, particularly if they were trying to keep their options open. (Are you psychic? As I write, your above reply seems to be time-stamped before my question.)

[A30yoyo]

Not psychic...I noticed that...the message filed above yours....weird

[captplaystation]

Had the same thing happen earlier today on another thread , pprune has introduced "time travel" (read Gremlins ! )

[WHBM]

Quote from A30yoyo:I think both types had to use Gander depending on winds...the first 6 Pan Am 707s were -100 domestic models...

Yes, and presumably the payload. I guess Gander would have made much more sense westbound than Shannon, particularly if they were trying to keep their options open.
Indeed. Both the BOAC Comet 4 and the Pan Am 707, introduced to Transatlantic services in October 1958, did not have the range for reliable nonstop westbound services, and typically stopped en route. Shannon to New York could still be challenging whereas Gander is much nearer the midpoint, and also was when you knew better how it was going – weather forecasting was still an imprecise science compared to nowadays, and there was nobody else at 40,000 feet sending back upper levels reports ! It would be a mid-route decision by the flight deck whether they needed to stop, which continued procedures from prop aircraft days. It is difficult to follow the procedures nowadays as these optional fuel stops were not shown in the timetable.

The first 707s, the -120 model, were really only suitable for US coast-to-coast routes rather than Transatlantic. Note that the first such Pan Am jet route was to Paris, not London, which is of course 150 nm further Great Circle. The first proper Pan Am intercontinental 707 was not delivered until a year later, and they came on stream in the Autumn of 1959, when the shorter range models cascaded down to Pan Am’s Caribbean routes.