EC135 or Bell 429 ?

[yako]

Hi everybody,

I am new on this forum and I need some advice
Our company wants to buy a helicopter for 5/7 passengers to be operated in Africa and in the bush with range.
We think about the EC135 or Bell 429.
Any recomendations from experienced pilots who fly one of these is welcome.
TKS:)

[RotaryWingB2]

EC130? Worth a look.

[Saint Jack]

yako: Ask around your local helicopter scene, or here on PPrune if you wish, about the product and technical support recieved from both Eurocopter and Bell. When you're working in the bush or other remote locations, this aspect of helicopter operations is very important unless you want to spend a lot of time on the ground waiting for help to fix a problem.

[WLM]

135 will only take 6 pax plus pilot, leaving limited fuel endurance/range

If you want 7 pax plus pilot and more fuel endurance/range then would suggest 429

But as mentioned prior, check what support for either you will get in the field....

WLM

[RVDT]

a helicopter for 5/7 passengers to be operated in Africa and in the bush with range

Be careful with the numbers quoted for the 429. Use a 212!

WLM - he said 5/7 PAX not seats!

[Phoinix]

EC145 would be a substitute for "more seats 135".

[[email protected]]

What Your company wants, what someone is trying to sell them, what they want to afford, what they need and what will actually work, can be very different things.

There are other choices and for 'bush' work I wouldn't be too interested in either. More mission specifics beyond range and 5-7 pax might help define the most appropriate aircraft. On the assumption that 1) you may be flying it and 2) that you have an interest in it being around for the long term I would more clearly define my mission/s first.

Just my 2c having been in the position of selecting aircraft.

[longbox]

Hi Yako,


I have sent you a pm re the above

[victor papa]

I agree with RotaryWingB2's suggestion for Africa. You need a simple machine which can carry the pax at temperature and altitude. Does not matter how good the manufacturer support is you have customs amongst many other things to deal with so you do not want to get in a situation where you require too many spares for instance. Custom clearance and work permits for engineers if something goes wrong is a nightmare so unless it's a contract or insurance requirement stick with something requiring minimal maintenance support. The 130 is prooving herself in Africa as a workhorse and of course there is the 350 but the 130 for pax is more than adequate. A twin requires extra maintenance and auto pilots extra 6 monthly or yearly checks so be careful cause those are the undefined potholes!

[Jet Ranger]

The guy (old H.H) from Bell in Fort Worth, TX told me that 429 is better:}

[B1.3 Drifter]

Assuming you've already done your research and you've narrowed it down to those two...It's got to be the Bell. It's bigger, faster, stronger, newer and as has been said, the product support is second to none. Oh....and you wont have to deal with Eurocopter....win win.

I'm sure someone wont like me mentioning it but to throw another one in the mix. Have you considered the MD902. The product support is not as good as Bell but it's ok at the moment. Pilots love flying it and it has a very good safety record. If you have to land in the bush, the Notar makes it the best for confined space landings. It's very quiet in the air and very smooth(unlike the 135), it also has better range then the 135, It's far more spacious than the 135 and about the same as the B429(902 has slightly bigger main cabin but smaller boot)

[Jet Ranger]

In 135, biggest problem will be endurance. If thats important for you, take 145 or 429.

But, 429 is relativly new and we will see how things will go with it.

[yako]

Thanks for all the info.
The 429 is relatively new as Jet ranger said, and it's why I am looking for some advices and info from pilots flying her.
Good to hear the info regarding the EC135: 6 pax but poor range. How the range is affected in high 40's?
The 145 would be perfect........but price!!!!!
Thanks for all the posts I received. it's nice to get this help.
:D

[GoodGrief]

Just looked at the data on the Bell page.
According to that you can load about 4 pax with a bit of luggage on a full tank.
Is that true? Any takers?

[Jet Ranger]

Well, somebody said that 429 performances are not as good as you can read in papers.
Other way, I ve been in Bell TX, few months ago and discussed with TR instructors on 429 and they said its really great mashine. On HEMS 300 nm flight, 30 min faster then 135...performence exellent.

[[email protected]]

Sorry but who's doing 300 NM legs in a helicopter for EMS, other than Bell marketing :hmm:

[mtoroshanga]

Go for a Bell 412 or 212,you have good support and a built in particle sepperator as well as high skid gear for bush landings.The blades are pretty robust as far as sand erosion as well. I have operated them in Iran and various African operations and they work!!
I do have a bit of time on them,I got my 212 licence in 1972.

[griffothefog]

Sorry all, but I cannot see the nostalgic attraction of the 212, its a piece of junk. 90kts or more and your teeth are rattling.. :=

Now the UH1H or 205 is a workhorse I can understand the love for :ok:

Of the modern aircraft in the offing here, I would say the EC135 is the better from proven history, but of course the 429 has yet to win over the new audience...:cool:

Me, I'm stuck on the 139........ No comment needed :E

[Jet Ranger]

@Bhl

It was some their customer in Canada, 150 nm in one direction, to pick up an ill person...and way back. They do that trip very often, have both 135 & now 429 ...and very satisfied with 429 ... 30 min difference...with better endurance ... but, as you said ... it can be only Bell marketing...:rolleyes:

135 proved itself :ok:, 429 have to do that in future...

[birrddog]

NAC in Soutth Africa operate several 429's up Africa; the Chief Pilot said he was happy with them (though they are quite pricey).

They did have some MX issues which were a bit more complicated (ability to deal with locally) and required some special ferry flights back to Joburg to be dealt with, though that's where their primary MX facility is.

[MEMORESTO]

We are in the process of buying a couple of new helicopters. We are comparing the Bell 429 with the EC 135 Hermes and the MD Explorer. The specifications are self evident for the most part, but there are little on the noise levels at landing and take off. These units will be in residential areas time to time particularly as our hangar is home based. Noise level is an issue. The information on the FAA site Appendix 10 and 11 regarding aircraft noise levels is not clear and does not have these newer models in any case. If anybody has real time measurements it will be helpful…thanks

[MEMORESTO]

The Bell 429, EC 135 and the MD Explorer are all about the same specification. Your issue will be maintenance and repair. Go with the one that has facilities near your area of operation.

[RVDT]

I'm new here

Obviously eating your own phish bait as well! :D

The Bell 429, EC 135 and the MD Explorer are all about the same specification.

Really?

Or am I wrong in thinking you are replying to your own questions?

Good reading here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet))

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/78/Trollface.svg

[MEMORESTO]

I was replying to the comment above regarding which one to buy; no point buying a unit thaat has no service in the area. I have everything we need about all three except the noise levels if you'd care to actually read the notes.

[RVDT]

Why are you replying to your own request that you posted.

Or is your username used by several different people?

I smell PHISH.

The Bell 429, EC 135 and the MD Explorer are all about the same specification.

Really? If you believe that I have a deal for you.

[Encyclo]

If noise is an issue, I recommend you take time to personally stand and listen in the area where a 429 is operating; you will be surprised at how quiet it is for a machine of it's size, compared to the two others. The four bladed tail rotor is amazingly quiet.

Don't go by just the numbers; your neighbors wont...:}

[Savoia]

Some amazingly inaccurate and contrasting information in circulation hence ..

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/ghBpvB6bpwYjkznEodJ1LnxfKQqoq0VoXzgAhZO9eT4=w650-h207-p-no

Any accurate information (as well as approx. fuel burn) would be appreciated.

[Phoinix]

EC135P2+
we have a 710 liter capacity tank. I have never seen 137 knots in clean configuration, its more of 130kts IAS at PA 1000-2000ft. Fuel burn 220kg per hour.

[Savoia]

Grazie Phoinix! :ok:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ir5PBFu7sto/UpCa4nEb9EI/AAAAAAAAPhU/M6w7Xs_ukUw/w730-h301-no/135-429+comp+b.png

[Jet Ranger]

Fuel burn ...

Our EC135P2+ with empty weight 1890 kg, never more than 170-180 kg / per hour. Sometimes a little bit less...

[Savoia]

Sometimes a little bit less...

Interesting.

Let's call the 'bit less' 167kg/h. This means a difference of 53kg/h between your 135 and Phoinix's.

Can we assume then that Phoinix is flying heavy loads at low altitude and you are flying light loads at high altitude?

[Phoinix]

Cruise with FLI 8 will give you 220kg/h. Flight close to vy will give you about 160kg/h. We normally fly with TOM of about 2800-2850kg.

[Jet Ranger]

Something like that. It's very variable with TOM/Speed...

JR

[Savoia]

For those following the conversation but unfamiliar with some of the acronyms:

FLI = First Limit Indicator

8 = Representative of 80, for 80% torque. (FLI 10 is maximum for the 135).

TOM = Take off Mass

Vy = Speed for best rate of climb

[Lima Oscar]

Phoinix,

130kts IAS at 1000 or 2000ft gives you 133 to 136kt TAS (isa condition)... is your EC135 is slick or fitted with external equipment ?

[Phoinix]

In clean config, OAT 5C you would only reach 130 ias below 2700kg. Heavier than that its more 125ish.

[PhlyingGuy]

The 429 may be $6.5m new if you fully load it up with stuff you probably don't need, but I'm pretty sure it starts under $6.

[Brilliant Stuff]

EC135P2+ minimum MAUW 2910 which can be extended to 2950kg and as the P3 to 2980kg.

Never burned more than 200kg/hr in Police role going FLI 9.5, for what it's worth.

That's 125-130kts with the camera and Nitesun fitted whilst pulling FLI9.5.

[Phoinix]

You must have some weird air mixture up there... :) FLI 9,5 on P2+?

@Savoia - P2 and P2+ although they have FLI markings, these have different torque values for the same FLI reading. FLI 10 is max. which in respect to the torque values are equal to 75% for P2 and 78% for P2+ (torque per engine).

@Brilliant Stuff: Cruising speed on EC135 is reduced by 5kts for SX-16, 4kts for FLIR and 6kts for loudspeakers... your police config reaches 130kts IAS or TAS at what PA? In clean config your EC would reach almost 145 kts... or is that the FIAT 109 we are talking about? :}

[blackdog7]

Recently went through the same comparison between the 135 and 429.
Pretty tough to get a new 429 for less than 6 million.
IMO, it would be a good idea to let the 429 platform mature for a few more years.
That said, both are good machines - but we decided on the 135- mainly because of the poor support we received from Bell on our previous machine. Hearing a lot of horror stories lately about the "award winning" support that Bell is supposed to be known for....and we operate in the same country where the machine is built. :eek:
The support from Eurocopter has been very good on the 135P2e.
BD

[Savoia]

Still searching for the following B429 related information:

- Confirmation that the maximum fuel capacity (standard tank) is 810ltrs

- Confirmation that max cruise (Vh) is 155kts

- Average (or approx.) fuel burn

Blackdog: That is a surprise given that Bell have traditionally delivered very well in this area. Reassuring to hear however that EC seem to be improving their after sales support.

[HeloDrvr]

The 429 will not cruise at 155 kias. even near Sea Lvl.

Plan on 150 kias only if you're willing to burn 90gph!!!
That's at slightly less than gross wgt. (FAA land 7,000 lb MGW).

82 gph for 140 gph.

It'll lift whatever you put in there, but Payload is an issue.

BEW of a well-equipped corporate config. 4,900 lbs minimum!
Many around 5,000 lbs.


If it weren't for the great product support, I'd take an AW109S/SP for performance (range/speed vs. payload) over the 429 any day.

[Savoia]

HeloDrvr: Grazie mille! :ok: This is most helpful.

Pls confirm 82gph for 140kts?

[HeloDrvr]

Yes. 82 gph for 140 kias.

Sorry for the typo.

[Savoia]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-r7dV-vH5Irc/UpNzg5vB4qI/AAAAAAAAPjE/rYor6bVjdr0/w745-h329-no/135-429+Comp+%25283%2529.png

Notes:

a) As indicated, this comparison is compiled with the benefit of contributions from members of the Rotorheads forum (as well as publicly available information) and, as such, claims no ‘official’ or approved status.

b) Following several comments related to the B429 purchase price, this has been downwardly revised.

c) There are various comments relating to the EC135 fuel burn but, overall, the consensus is that 220kg/h is slightly high and which has led to this figure being reduced to 200kg/h.

d) Based on HeloDrvr's comments the following adjustments have been made in repect of the B429:

i) Fuel burn is recorded as 82gph and a straight conversion to litres (ie. 310lit/h) used in the table.
ii) Basic Weight is increased to 2200kgs leaving a 'useful' load of 970kgs.
iii) Vh amended to 140kts

Awaiting further information to the contrary.

Thanks to all who have contributed.

[SansAnhedral]

Why are you comparing fuel burn with different units?

kg/h vs lit/h

Jet A is not water.

1Kg of Jet A1 = approx 1.266 litres

1 litre of Jet A1 = approx 0.79Kg.

(STP assumed)

[Savoia]

Why are you comparing fuel burn with different units?

The fuel burn figure was provided in volume not weight and, as mentioned in the notes, I simply did a straight conversion. Also .. there is no change to the end result.

However, you are right that (in terms of consistency) it is better to maintain the same units so .. please see the revised table (below).

I am using 0.80kg/l as the approx. specific gravity for JetA as mentioned in the note beneath the table.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KQjbW1NCNGQ/UpN_RJYfi3I/AAAAAAAAPjc/xTKIHrcVNwo/w743-h333-no/135-429+Comp+%25284%2529.png

I have not mentioned 135/429 operating costs or depreciation. Regarding the latter I believe the 429 may offer a slower rate of depreciation than the 135 in much the same way as resale values compare (in terms of depreciation) between the 350 and 407 but, with relatively few 429's on the used market, this is still difficult to judge.

[Bender Rodrigez]

Hi,

I've been operating various types of helicopters in East Africa for the last 5 years, both single and twins. I also had quite a few clients asking for the same question regarding twin helicopter.
In my opinion it really depends where in Africa you want to operate. In East Africa for example, the main hub is Wilson airport, Nairobi. Nowhere else you'll get maintenance support.
Also comparing helicopters on paper doesn't make any sense to me. You need to make sure that the type you want to get can do the job and can get the proper optional such as sand filters, blade tapes or floats. I remember a company in Sudan trying to operate a EC145 without sand filters: After 70 hours we found the axial compressor blades quite badly eroded.

Let's face the fact: Other than Southern Africa forget about Bell, they have no network for support at all, and you need someone on site to assist you. The british army is operating B212 from Nanyuki and they are such a pain! Too slow, can't fly above 12,000ft, massive maintenance penalty.
MD has a lovely machine but they are dying and won't provide any kind of support. Maintaining a MD530 is already a huge ball-ache.

For me the best compromise for medium twins in Africa are:
- EC145
- AS365N3

That is based on experience, not reading graphs. They are simple and robust, there is some licensed engineers and AMO available locally and all parts can be found easily. The EC135 is a really nice machine, but no one is operating it around here which means you're on your own.

Hope it helps

BR

[Jet Ranger]

@Savi,

...to be more precise, a few data from EC135P2+ Flight Manual...

MTOM is 2910 kg, but can be extended to 2950 kg (supplement in FM), so, we can say 2950 kg

MAX. RANGE
From FLM ... TOM 2910 kg, CAS=104 kt, PA 5000 ft, ISA = 372 nm (or 390 nm for 98 kt / 10.000 ft) ... on SL is 362 nm.

MAX. ENDURANCE (without reserve), usable fuel 560 kg (710 lit)

From FLM ...TOM 2300 kg, CAS 90 kt, PA 5000 ft, ISA = 03h 58min
...TOM 2910 kg, CAS 100 kt,PA 5000 ft, ISA = 03h 24 min
...TOM 2910 kg, CAS 70 kt, PA 5000 ft, ISA = 03h 36 min
...TOM 2910 kg, CAS 70 kt, SEA LEVEL, ISA = 03h 54 min


JR:ok:

[Brilliant Stuff]

Could the bad Bell support be down to the after effects of them changing their computer system which holds the stock, which I am led to believe bombed spectacularly...

Jet Ranger is correct but if you buy a new EC135 won't it be a P2e or even a P3 which will mean MTOW will be 2950kgs and 2980kgs....

[MightyGem]

@Savoia - P2 and P2+ although they have FLI markings, these have different torque values for the same FLI reading. FLI 10 is max. which in respect to the torque values are equal to 75% for P2 and 78% for P2+ (torque per engine).

@Brilliant Stuff: Cruising speed on EC135 is reduced by 5kts for SX-16, 4kts for FLIR and 6kts for loudspeakers... your police config reaches 130kts IAS or TAS at what PA? In clean config your EC would reach almost 145 kts... or is that the FIAT 109 we are talking about?

For a P2+, FLI 9(69% Tq) is max continuous twin engine power. FLI 10(78% Tq), is the 5 minute, less than 65kts limit.

At max continuous, we cruise at 130/132kts IAS with FLIR and Nitesun 2.

[helifreddy]

Take a used BK117 C1. That will do very well.

[jayteeto]

On a HEMS shout, you would fly max speed. An extra 8 gph for 10 kts speed is a big big issue.