Lake Eyre CTAF

[Sunfish]

post deleted. I was going to share my experience of the Lake Eyre CTAF imbroglio, but I won't now lest I be prosecuted.

[Kharon]

Go directly to goal, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Strict liability offence, reckless and negligent therefore not a fit and proper etc. etc.

Poor ol' Sunny. :D :D

[kingRB]

haha Sunny they would have to prosecute a LOT of "mugs" as you put it if they were going to nab every pilot that went up there this year that was guilty of that!

[Pilotette]

Hey Sunfish, I didn’t catch your original post but I personally think that you should have the right to voice your experience and shouldn’t be guarded at the risk of being prosecuted. This topic hasn’t been raised on here previously to my knowledge, yet is a pretty serious safety concern. There has been some exposure of the topic in one of the recent Flight Safety magazines but there are still aircraft every week on the wrong frequency in what is a very busy area at the moment, resulting in numerous “near miss” situations. It’s not only light GA and PVT aircraft that have been caught out, but also the RFDS PC12s, Fokker 50s, media helicopters/aircraft and even Mr Dick Smith!
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For those of you playing at home and have no idea what we’re on about: the CTAF for YWMC and YMRE is stated as 126.7 in the ERSA although there is a NOTAM (admittedly not the easiest to find if you’re not looking for it) issued that provides co-ordinates for corners of a boundary that has a discreet area broadcast frequency for when Lake Eyre is in flood. This area covers Lake Eyre, YWMC and YMRE and the frequency is 127.8.
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CASA has been contacted on numerous occasions about the fact that the change has not been made clear enough and that the ERSA needs to reflect the new frequency. Their response does lend itself towards agreement that it is a safety concern and provides increased risk of collision but insist that the change can’t be printed in the ERSA, as 127.8 is not a frequency reserved for CTAFs. They do provide the advice that anyone that encounters an incident due to the incorrect frequency being monitored or broadcast on, is urged to submit an official incident report. My understanding is that an influx of reports would then be presented to Airservices as proof of the concern and some sort of solution would be decided upon and implemented. I guess some sort of fatal accident may provide the same result.
*
Until then, keep your eyes open and monitor both if you can!

[Captain Nomad]

CASA's response in the latest FSA mag to several letters on the subject seems to be more of a justification for the current state of play with a reminder of the protocol and strict 'legal' nature of NOTAM format - hardly a recognition of "Maybe this could be done better..."

[Kharon]

Sincere, perhaps I was a little too light hearted in a heavy handed sort of way. But, the chance to elaborate on the culture of fear, generated in GA at the moment was too tempting.

This should be an 'open topic', mistakes made, lessons learned and a reasonable excuse about the sad state of the ERSA/NOTAM system and perhaps, some guidance from the CASA about 'keeping us all safe' would not go amiss.

What concerns me the most is that the post was withdrawn for fear of prosecution (not much chance for you), but; a junior charter pilot working for a 'targeted' operator would be having kittens if a similar post was read. Why? He had done it as well.

This now becomes a clearly defined safety issue.

The pilot should (and in my opinion be obliged by law) to report the incident to his chief pilot. In the normal course the CP would (rightly) “chip” the pilot for stuffing up the procedure and then issue a company brief to the rest of the girls and boys about the procedures at Marree. Job done, safety issue resolved. Kid learned a lesson to boot.

This does not happen, the kids are so scared of 'getting into trouble' they dissemble or worse shut up.

Why ? – the bogey man watcheth, and he watches exceeding fine. This small incident will form a part of a safety based case against a targeted Operator, Chief Pilot and the kid. If the authority decides it is meat to do so.

Sad; sad and shameful. Only an open just culture helps safety.

I blame the booze bus – the Friday night BBQ and beers/ discussion/ peer group tutoring all gone now.

Sunfish, like your style, eloquence and above all, your patent honesty.

Heigh ho off to work I go. Stay 'legally' safe. Hit anything or anyone you like - just do it legally. :D

Selah.

[Desert Flower]

I guess some sort of fatal accident may provide the same result.

Pilotette, I think it's been more good luck than good management that we haven't already had a mid-air up there. I've even heard some of the "out of towners" argue with the "locals" when they try to politely point out that they're on the wrong frequency! But then maybe it is good management - on the part of the local guys & gals at least.

DF.

[Sunfish]

The issue with the Lake Eyre NOTAM is that I, and others, picked it as: "in addition to" where it really was: "Instead of".

[Desert Flower]

The issue with the Lake Eyre NOTAM is that I, and others, picked it as: "in addition to" where it really was: "Instead of".

Don't feel bad Sunnie - you're not the first & I am as sure as the sun rises in the East & sets in the West you won't be the last!
There was a time when in my previous life I would have handed out maps of the area with the frequencies marked on them to everyone who called in to see me. Even now if someone rings me to enquire about fuel (yes, 3 years later & I'm still getting calls) I will check with the caller to make sure they are aware of the NOTAM. Most of them aren't.

DF.

[compressor stall]

What am I missing?

I flew over Lake Eyre lowish level en route from AYE to BHI. I read the NOTAMS. I called on 127.8, NE of the Lake, and gave a pretty routine call, almost the same as entering any CTAF - rego, position, alt and where I was going. Is it that hard?:hmm:

[PLovett]

Stallie, you are missing nothing. :ok:

Its the nongs who believe NOTAMS are for wooses that are causing the problems. :ugh: Obviously you read further than than just the specific NOTAMS and took in the FIR ones as well, unlike some people who should know better. :suspect:

[mcgrath50]

While we are on the subject, last time I was up there, the hardest thing I found was not finding the NOTAM but locating all the local features the charter boys and girls use for positions in their calls, although 90% are on the map, I'm fairly sure a few aren't. Is there a map somewhere (or can someone draw one up) of where most of the locals make their calls.

It got to the point where I asked one guy "I'm here. Is this anywhere near you?" :ok:

[Ixixly]

Mcgrath50, unfortunately you'll find a lot of points that the scenic flights use won't be on your maps but they'll be used by the pilots. Personally i've flown a LOT of scenic flights in the northern part of Australia and if I know who i'm talking to i'll use the known points irrespective of whether they are on a Map or not cause we know them well, but if someone is in the area that is obviously not from a local company i'll be sure to use stuff that they will know, ala, points on their WACs or Distance and Bearing!!

Knowing the quality of such people as Pilotette i'm sure they'll do the same down there, and if in doubt, just ask, they'll be sure to give you something more appropriate!!
Its hard to draw them as each company can sometimes use their own, just easier to ask on the right frequency if in doubt.

[mcgrath50]

One of Pilotettes guys did point out a few places when we stopped for fuel (went straight past the island with the pelicans :ugh: ). It did seem like there was a system everyone was using, everything worked out fine, the scenic guys were great working around us. I always feel slightly unprepared though not knowing the inside knowledge ;)

[Sunfish]

Plovett, I read the NOTAM. I always read my NOTAMS. The issue is that the way the Lake Eyre NOTAM reads it is easy to mistake the new frequency as in addition to the Marree and William Creek frequencies rather than instead of the discrete Marree and William creek frequencies. The English is convoluted.

Use 127.8 in the region? Check.

Use 127.8 if overflying Marree? Check.

Use 127.8 for landing calls? :confused::confused::confused:

- You have to infer that last bit from the reference to the AIP - this is one case when CASA style English might get somebody killed.

From NAIPS:

TEMPO DISCRETE AREA BCST FREQ 127.8 ESTABLISHED IN LAKE EYRE REGION
WI THE BOUNDRIES OF STRAIGHT LINES JOINING S27 30.0 E136 00.0 TO
S27 30.0 E139 00.0 TO S30 00.0 E139 00.0 TO S30 00.0 E136 00.0 TO S27
30.0 E136 00.0
TO ASSIST IN SEPERATION FM OTHER ACFT PILOTS ENTERING AND OPR WI THE
DESIGNATED AIRSPACE MUST BCST THE FOLLOWING ON THE BCST FREQ;
1.ACFT CALLSIGN
2.ACFT PSN
3.ACFT LVL
4.PILOTS INTENTIONS IN RELATION TO FLIGHT
PILOTS OPR AT AD WI THE DESIGNATED AIRSPACE MUST MAKE BCST AS
APPLICABLE TO NON TOWERED AD IN CLASS G AIRSPACE AS SPECIFIED IN AIP
ON DISCRETE AREA BCST FREQ. THE DISCRETE BCST AREA INCLUDES LAKE EYRE
NORTH, LAKE EYRE SOUTH, MAREE (YMRE) AND WILLIAM CREEK (YWMC)
SFC TO 5000FT AMSL

[VH-XXX]

My easy non-standard solution is to press the mic 1 and 2 button and broadcast on both at the same time, that way you'll catch those other pilots doing the right thing and those doing the wrong thing. Simple yet effective ! ;). Very handy for CTAFs that have recently changed frequency too as there's a 99% chance that someone will screw up.

[PLovett]

Sunnie, wasn't having a go at you but rather at those who don't bother to get any NOTAMS (or do any flight planning, or have any emergency gear etc.). There were many that seem to think flight planning is all about the GPS. Yes, the FIR NOTAM is not clear and could be better presented.

I was there in 2009 and had some of the closest calls I would ever care to have and that was when the frequency was 126.7. They only implemented the discrete frequency once the season was nearly over that year.

[Xcel]

Makes it hard when people switch early coming down from Birdsville. Or don't change at all. Or just don't turn on their radio. We always operate to a sched out there on hf, with one VHF on 127.8 the other 126.7. It's funny how many times you are flicking between the two. And then theres the unidentified traffic on tcas which just "pops" up. It really is a shambles to say the least. But at least the boys and girls at wrightsair are friendly enough and vigilant enough to point out some operators errors in their area (well it is their backyard so their area will suffice).

I reckon wmc and the lake need a constant separate frequency year in year out, published in the ersa...

Have counted 35 aircraft between William Ck and Birdsville on several occasions...

[Fantome]

Go directly to goal, do not pass go, do not collect $200.


kahlalijie-bran, or whatever your nom de guerre is these days -

it looks like you've not played 'MONOTONY' for a while shags.

it looks like another briefing might be the go . . .. aided by the

sumptuously potent

Kilkenny in the front office at 338 Oxford Street.

it looks like I cannot make a useful contibution about

Lake Eyre.

but then again, it looks like nobody can dispute the good advice of PL

- read the relevant reams .. . and digest.

[Kharon]

Fantome was it. Hobart, well at least that explains it, a bit.

Was it you who declared very recently that the landing lights at William Creek were taken out by a rogue Metro 2, with 18 pax, skid marks, sparks and absolutely no council support for replacement lights. Seems to me this rings a bell, but perhaps not. But it's the only real safety 'issue' out there this year.

FYI - Google indicates 338 Oxford St, the nearest point to Bond St underground station, unless you mean the Sunglasses hut ??.

Check diary, no PL

Check "fav" drinks list: Irish ale described as a known toxin. (definitely not a Cab Sav).

Yours, diverted, mildly amused but slightly puzzled - K.

[gobbledock]

Would the safer and simpler solution be to retain the published CTAFs for the vicinity of William Creek and Marree, and apply the SBA frequency outside the vicinity? Clinton, as you are a current/former Regulator/consultant/member of club Skull, why would you even care about safety? Wouldn't you be more corcerned about 'where the nearest trough is' ?

[compressor stall]

Would the safer and simpler solution be to retain the published CTAFs for the vicinity of William Creek and Marree, and apply the SBA frequency outside the vicinity?


Although I don't operate there, I would have thought yes.

If for no other reason that someone on the ground at YMRE probably won't be hearing an aircraft at the northern end of the Lake at 1000 feet, and they unknowingly start talking across each other....

[Desert Flower]

Was it you who declared very recently that the landing lights at William Creek were taken out by a rogue Metro 2, with 18 pax, skid marks, sparks and absolutely no council support for replacement lights. Seems to me this rings a bell, but perhaps not. But it's the only real safety 'issue' out there this year.

Don't think it was Willy Creek - more like Marree. Had the replacement prop for the beastie floating around my backyard for a while until we worked out how to get it up there.

DF.

[Pilotette]

CS..that certainly is a problem as well and to answer Clinton's question I guess it is hard to say what the best option would be. I know that the option of retaining 126.7 for MRE and WMC was considered but then there is the issue of missed calls during the transition, where is the safest place to make the boundary to transition etc etc. I think that both options have valid arguments for implementation but I think the biggest problem that we have at the moment is the ERSA. The notam is fine as far as I'm concerned but there are still plenty of pilots that just don't check them..we could go on all day about the professionalism of these pilots but it is a reality and for risk mitigation purposes we need to accept that. At the end of the day, the ERSA needs to reflect the change WITH 127.8 stated. Most aircraft are fitted with dual comms these days, even if a pilot doesn't check the Notam (yes laziness etc etc) or can't understand it, at least the frequency will be right there for them and they can monitor both if uncertain. Call this spoon feeding but if it averts an accident it is worth while. We are more than happy to discuss our local procedures on the phone and 9/10 when we receive a call about fuel availability the pilot is unaware of the frequency. We also offer to email a map with the Lakes prominent points and I will try post it here for the benefit of others.

[Pilotette]

Just received the FSA magazine..more responses with good points including yours Clinton. Also a response from Mal Wardrop (CASA safety advisor) who has been doing his best to help us find a solution to this problem. He raises good points in his response too and has informed us that it has been brought to the attention of the "higher powers". :D

[Pilotette]

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr172/shety002/LEmaphandout.gif
This is just a basic map to be used as a rough guide of the points surrounding Lake Eyre. (Not an official/controlled map)

[PLovett]

HeyPilotette, has the C210 migrated in the floods? :} Wasn't that far north in 2009. I think you lot are joshing with us. :ok: Keep safe.

[Pilotette]

Haha I knew you'd pick that! I didn't create this map so I'm not sure how it ended up there but I can assure you the C210 is still in it's previous location further South! While we're at it, it's Dulhunty Island.

Thread drift: I recently flew one of the couples that were pax on the C210 wreck when it happened...interesting story!

[mcgrath50]

Thanks Pilotette

[CaptainMidnight]

Would the safer and simpler solution be to retain the published CTAFs for the vicinity of William Creek and Marree, and apply the SBA frequency outside the vicinity?Exactly. That is how it is supposed to work, and to me it has always been a no brainer.

This SBA thing for Lake Eyre is not new. It has been done a few times over the last 15+ years on the occasions the area has been in flood.

It needs to be borne in mind that the SBA is temporary i.e. while the flood waters last. When they go, the SBA NOTAM will be cancelled. That's why there are no changes to the published CTAFs or publication of the area on charts. The CTAFs stay, the SBA comes and goes.

The problem has always been those who don't bother to check NOTAMs, but that is a problem everywhere.

In the case of this SBA, CASA could have a map associated with the NOTAM i.e. an AVFAX/NAIPS chart (that certainly used to happen in the past).

I agree that there are too many YMMM FIR NOTAMs. For a start, consideration should be given to moving the airline track definition messages to somewhere else eg Head Office.

[Desert Flower]

Thread drift: I recently flew one of the couples that were pax on the C210 wreck when it happened...interesting story!

Pilotette - would love to hear it as I was quite involved with that particular incident. If you can't post it here then by all means feel free to either PM or personal email me.

DF.

P.S. The rego of the 210 was XAG - hence we locals referred to Madigan Gulf thereafter as Xray Alpha Gulf! ;)

[185skywagon]

The other problem is that you have 4 potential area freqs depending on Dept point that you can be on. 125.4 from YBDV, 119.5 from moomba or ybhi, 121.2 from ylec, and 120.7 ycbp or yood.
This compounds the whole problem.
As well as the odd group that run on their own chat freq.
185.

[frigatebird]

Could have used that map with the local points recently, as I wasn't sure where some reporting aircraft were.., was using the WAC for my points..

[CaptainMidnight]

Lake George: if there have been incidents and/or a safety issue was perceived, then I assume CASA would have directed that the depiction be changed. Have you reported your concerns to the ACT RAPAC or CASA? If so, what was their response?

Rest: WRT this Lake Eyre matter, the charts and ERSA don't depict incorrect information. The broadcast area is temporary (I note that the current NOTAM self expires in a few weeks); the charts and ERSA reflect permanent info.

If a temporary broadcast area was to be depicted on a series of charts and info in ERSA you potentially create further safety issues, which is exactly what you are trying to avoid. 1) pilots not holding the new chart set and ERSA being unaware of the info and 2) info remaining on the charts and ERSA for up to 6 months when the area is cancelled. If you let the area run till the next release and delete it then, you still have the problem of pilots not holding the first chart & ERSA set and being unaware of the info in the first place, as well as those not getting the NEW set removing the info.

This is why the charts and the rest of AIP carry permanent information, and temporary matters are covered by NOTAMs. We have to relate current NOTAMs to the charts & AIP. Simple.

Any change to a CTAF frequency creates a potential safety issue due pilots being unaware of the change. The freq info is not just published on charts ERSA & DAP. Some datasets for flight planning software etc. carry AD/ALA frequency info as well as various publications eg. airfield directories.

[Piston_Broke]

So youve had concerns about how L George is depicted for years but never taken it up with CASA / rapac / Instructor, and instead prefer to sook here??

You must have led a sheltered life - many don't buy every set of new charts and ersa that come out. We all know that. Some of those check notams, some don't. Thats reality, and the system is set up for those who do the right thing.

I think you know well that by saying permanent here meant things not expected to keep changing, at the time it was put on maps etc.

Reading ersa and the notam it is clear to me - in the broadcast area use 127.8 Common sense says to also broadcast on the ctaf when near the aerodromes.