Bomber Boys:

[PPRuNe Pop]

A tad late with this but Channel 5 are putting out a documentary at 2100 tonight called "Bomber Boys: Revealed." It will stress that only one in 20 survived a raid.

PPP

[Brewster Buffalo]

Also on Radio 4 extra tomorrow from 2.30pm onwards and then across the day there is a drama documentary starring Samuel West about a RAF Bomber Command raid on Germany in 1943. It will be broadcast in real time and includes interviews with the men and women involved on both sides.

[cazatou]

Are you sure about that statistic Pop? Should that not have been "survived a Tour" (30 OPs)?

[spekesoftly]

Channel 5 are putting out a documentary at 2100 tonight called "Bomber Boys: Revealed"It starts at 20:00 in my neck of the woods.

Quote from the Radio Times:-

" ......... it took a heavy toll on air crews: in every raid, one in 20 didn't return."

[McGoonagall]

Also on Radio 4 extra tomorrow from 2.30pm onwards and then across the day there is a drama documentary starring Samuel West about a RAF Bomber Command raid on Germany in 1943. It will be broadcast in real time and includes interviews with the men and women involved on both sides.

Based on Len Deighton's book 'Bomber'. Heard it the first time round. Excellent.

[Pontius Navigator]

The one in twenty figure - or 5% - was a working figure for acceptable losses. The raid losses did not necessarily represent fatalities and many successfully bailed out. Where the loss rate on a particular raid was much higher than 5% then they became very worried.

The Augsberg raid was a case in point. Other raids early in the war with Wellingtons, Blenheims or Hampdens suffered much higher losses.

The thousand bomber raids however often had much lower loss rates as the concentration of force saturated the defences.

The final overall loss of life was around 50%.

A late friend of mine flew just one mission from which he failed to return. as a sgt nav it was his one and only Op and that the raid immediately following the inundation of the Ruhr and the predicted absence of flak, searchlights etc. Int had overlooked the fact that flak batteries used generators.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Caz, that was the figure quoted in the Radio Times. And as Pontious states. there were included in that figure over 10,000 who were taken prisoner.

Speak. You are right 2000 was correct of course. I thought it informative but it lacked something...........I am not sure what.

PPP

[GreenKnight121]

Ah, PP, but what Caz was objecting to was the sentence you actually posted, which is:
It will stress that only one in 20 survived a raid.

That's a 95% fatality rate on every raid!

[PPRuNe Pop]

Ooops and ooops again. :O

[Tankertrashnav]

Based on Len Deighton's book 'Bomber'. Heard it the first time round. Excellent.

Those who have read the book will know that one of the central characters, Flt Sgt Lambert DFM, withdraws himself from flying duties after the raid, and is made to suffer the indignity of being reduced to the ranks and being put on sanitary duties for his "Lack of Moral Fibre (LMF)" as combat fatigue was then known.

During 30 years of running a militaria shop I had hundreds of conversation with war veterans. Many were quiet heroes, some were obvious fantasists, but on only one occasion did I have a long conversation with a bomber pilot who had suffered the same fate as Lambert. After 40 years the experience still haunted him, and he was obviously bitter about the way he had been treated after his nerve finally cracked. In some ways I respected him more than any of the others I had met.

Great book and a great radio version - catch it if possible.

[Babyfactory]

Great book and a great radio version - catch it if possible.Or indeed get the CD version. It bears repeated listening.

[oldpax]

I have just finished a book called"pathfinder squadron".its the real story of a navigator on a Mosquito pathfinder squadron.He survived 90 operationd crashing on the last one.I will not say any more of the story only that he suffered a heart attack after it at the age of 22 due to stress!!Cracking good book!

[beamer]

I would wholeheartedly recommend buying the CD version of 'Bomber' - there are moments of great pathos particuarly when the 'fiction' is intertwined with recollections of aircrew and groundcrew - what debt we owe and they never even gave them a campaign medal.

Later comments from others mean that I stand corrected regarding the medal situation - thanks chaps.

[Tankertrashnav]

Yes they did - it's called the Aircrew Europe Star. No-one else got a "special" medal. Once you open that can of worms you'll be getting the Fighter Command Medal, The Coastal Command medal, the submarines medal, the commandos medal and the Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all medal.

Best left as it is.

[ExAscoteer]

Yes they did - it's called the Aircrew Europe Star.

Replaced by the France and Germany Star for Ops after 6 June 1944.

[cazatou]

Which ignores Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg et cetera!!

[Wander00]

One of the best projects of my career, helping organise the Pathfinder 50th Anniverasry Weekend at Wyton in 1992. Absolutely amazing.

[Hipper]

According to Wiki: '55,573 killed out of a total of 125,000 aircrew (a 44.4% death rate)'.

RAF Bomber Command - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bomber_Command#Casualties)

Only the U-boat crews had a worse loss rate (28,000 of 40,000 - 70%).

My dad flew with Bomber Command and did 29 ops in 1942/43. I asked a squadron historian who had the records if there was anything noteworthy about my father's operations. 'No', he said, 'except he survived'.

[Brewster Buffalo]

In 1942 the Air Ministry worked out the chances of someone surviving one tour or two tours.

For Heavy and Medium Bombers it was 44% one tour and 19.5% two tours.

For Torpedo Bombers it was 17.5% one tour and only 3% two tours.

[Bevo]

According to Wiki: '55,573 killed out of a total of 125,000 aircrew (a 44.4% death rate)'. I believe I have heard that the Lancaster was relatively narrow and hard to get out of in an emergency compared to the B-17 and B-24.

I noticed that the same Wikpedia which listed 55,573 killed out of 125,000 also listed 9,838 as prisoners of war a ratio of 5.6 to 1 killed vs. POW. For the U.S. Eight Air Force it shows 26,000 killed out of 350,000 and 23,000 prisoners of war for a ratio of close to 1 to 1. I am curious as to whether that difference is to the ability of escaping the aircraft flown.

[tarantonight]

Quality. Had no idea that some of our aircrew ended up in Concentration Camps.

Anyone read The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas. Better than the film.

TN.

[Take That]

Bevo,

You're right, and the chances of bailing out of a Lancaster (and indeed a Halifax) were made worse through a lack of available emergency exits. The act of getting away from one's crew position, strapping on a parachute, fighting through a narrow fuselage (and clambering over the main spar) and getting out of a small door at the rear of the fuselage could not have been easy. Mix with darkness, fire and perhaps the aircraft manoeuvering out of control and one can see why the loss rate in Bomber Command was disproportionally high. Oh for a decent escape hatch located in the forward fuselage.

American bomber crews had a much higher chance of escape, certainly from a B17. As well as more built-in exits, the crew could even egress directly through the open bomb bay. Of course, the B17 had design flaws, and the lack of a front turret in the early versions was quickly exploited by the Luftwaffe whose favoured tactics employed head-on attacks. The chances of the pilots was not helped by oxygen tanks located at head-height behind their seated positions! It took a while for the Luftwaffe to correlate the numbers of Army Air Corps air gunners who ended up in their POW camps compared to the front end crew (pilots, navigator and bombadier) who were killed in the head-on attacks. Later versions of course embodied the chin turret.

And then of course there was flak, which levelled the odds irrespective of the crew position.

[simflea404]

When reviewing the statistics...it should be remembered that take-off, landings and running out of fuel were far higher in the list of losses than enemy fire...

Ditching in the sea at night, having run out of fuel due to over range (less often) or bases with low visibilty (more often) probably cost more lives than any of the others....

Personally, great uncle had no bloody chance in a Hudson 1 with two Messers on his tail...While his uncle had all the luck (or frustration)...joing RFC in 1917 and retiring in 1937...guess that's the way life goes...for you or against you....

[November4]

Was in the area yesterday, 10 Nov 11, and spent a peaceful hour or so at the RAF Memorial where many of the Bomber Boys are remembered.

http://www.pro-patria.co.uk/01.jpg

http://www.pro-patria.co.uk/02.jpg

http://www.pro-patria.co.uk/03.jpg

http://www.pro-patria.co.uk/04.jpg

[MightyGem]

'55,573 killed out of a total of 125,000 aircrew
While that is bad enough, I seem to recall reading somewhere that 10,000 died due to non-combat losses; ie, in training, accidents over the UK on returning from ops and such. Are those numbers part of the 55,000, or in addition to?

[amostcivilpilot]

November 4

Thank you for posting those photos.

The first one makes one remember how young they were.

All very sad.

TTN your story about the pilot with battle stress is also one of those overlooked but true facts that should never be forgotten.

amcp

[skua]

Nov 4

Lovely photos. Re training accidents, I was at the Yorkshire Air Museum the other day, and they have a poignant map showing all aircraft crashes in the county. A large number of them were bomber training sorties.

[Brewster Buffalo]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that 10,000 died due to non-combat losses; ie, in training, accidents over the UK on returning from ops and such. Are those numbers part of the 55,000, or in addition to?

Non-combat losses in training etc were 8,305 and are included in the 55,000 total.

[langleybaston]

Quote: Yes they did - it's called the Aircrew Europe Star. No-one else got a "special" medal. Once you open that can of worms you'll be getting the Fighter Command Medal, The Coastal Command medal, the submarines medal, the commandos medal and the Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all medal.

My understanding is that Aircrew Europe included ANY aircrew flying on ops. over hostile soil. This would of course include:

Fighter Command, Coastal Command and the FAA at least.

So, no medal for the Bomber boys as such.

[Pontius Navigator]

Oh for a decent escape hatch located in the forward fuselage.

The Lancaster had an escape hatch in the forward fuselage. It was right by the bomb aimer's feet. There was a pull ring on a spigot on the left side. I was very nervous that it would open when it shouldn't.

[Pontius Navigator]

So, no medal for the Bomber boys as such.

Or Fighter, or maritime, or merchant marine etc etc, only theatre medals.

Now no one, as far as I know, has campaigned for the proper award of the Burma and Pacific Star. Similarly no one has campaigned for a medal for the mercantile marine in the years immediately after the war when there was a significant risk from uncharted mine fields or drifting mines. Life rafts were not removed until around 1948-49.

[Take That]

PN,

You're quite correct about the escape hatch located under the Bomb Aimer's position. However, I understand it was relatively small, especially for a crew member togged up with flying gear, mae west and parachute. It was also still a struggle for the Nav and Wireless Operator to get right the nose of the aircraft as I understand their crew positions were located in a relatively central position of the fuselage, compared to the Halifax.

To put things into context, the stats for shot down bombers record that the number of men surviving a Lancaster crew averaged 1.3. The number from a Halifax, again assuming a 7 man crew, was 2.45. One reason for the higher number of Halifax crew survival rates may have been the Nav and Wireless Operator were located in the forward fuselage, under and ahead of the cockpit, and much closer to the forward escape hatch.

But whichever way you look at it, I can not imagine the horror of being in that situation, and I think night must have only have made the chances of survival even more slim.

[November4]

Ref casualties in training. A couple of years ago I was given a copy of the F540 for 9 Servicing Flying Training School, RAF Hullavington for September 1941

1/9/41 No 1149978 LAC Jansen VDJ (Dutch pupil) was killed as a result of a flying accident

10/9/41 No 1384580 LAC Shand-Kydd JVW (Pupil) was killed as a result of a flying accident

12/9/41 No 36 Course completed Flying Training. 2 Officers : 41 Airmen

13/9/41 No 40 Course arrived for fling instruction. 5 Officers : 45 Airmen. This intake included 5 Czech and 1 Dutch Pupil.

15/9/41 No 1290114 LAC Audsley T (Pupil) died as a result of a injuries received in a flying accident.

19/9/41 Flying Officer MF Scragg (70612) Instructor, and St Fyvie J, No. NZ403439 (Pupil) were killed as a result of a flying accident.

25/9/41 2/Lt AH Barlow (Army Pupil) was killed as a result of a flying accident.

19 Aircraft were written off or seriously damaged during the month as under:

Master 6 Written off 8 Seriously Damaged
Hurricane 1 Written Off 4 Seriously Damaged

[XV490]

Ladies and gentleman - we are privileged to have among this fraternity a former wartime 61 Sqn Lancaster crewman - Hugh Spencer. Perhaps we should, humbly, ask him how he had planned to afford a bit of distance between himself and a Lancaster. Are you there, Hugh, sir?

[Tankertrashnav]

So, no medal for the Bomber boys as such.

langleybaston & PN - that was my point, really. All aircrew flying on operations over Europe received the Aircrew Europe Star (or the France & Germany Star after D-Day as Exascoteer correctly pointed out). A myth seems to have arisen, however, that Bomber Command were somehow uniquely snubbed in not getting some medal which everyone else got - this is probably tied up up with the shabby treatment meted out to Bomber Harris post 1945. As PN says, all the WW2 campaign stars were theatre awards, there were no special cases, unless I suppose you include the 'Battle of Britain' clasp on the 1939-45 Star ribbon. Of course some would argue for a special medal for Bomber Command, but as I said initially, that would pave the way for plenty of other 'special cases'.

[XV490]

Fair point, tankertrash. What was the opinion among the post-war 'heavy' crews, such as your own distinguished squadron when you were flying? Or is this all a latter-day, 'benefit of hindsight' push for a specific medal?

[Bert Angel]

I am curious as to whether that difference is to the ability of escaping the aircraft flown.

It was also a factor of the number of emergency exits, US aircraft being rather better served than ours.

[MightyGem]

Non-combat losses in training etc were 8,305 and are included in the 55,000 total.
Thanks for that.

[Krystal n chips]

Interesting programme. :ok:

One question however,and one I have never really been able to ascertain a definitive answer to.

How long, both in theory and in practice, would it have taken for a crew to complete a tour ?.

[BEagle]

When I was a Gnat stude, occasionally the chief MPBW / DOE bloke would turn up for a few quiet drinks in the OM. Any loud mouthed aspirant FJ stude who pontificated about 'the old blunty at the end of the bar' was soon put right - the old boy had been a Halifax pilot in the Second World War and had been blown out of his aircraft over a German city. He was one of the lucky ones; whilst 'in the bag' he had been treated fairly and properly. After the war he'd made friends with several of the inhabitants and would often pop over to stay with them.

Although once his wife remarked upon the spacious roads and well laid-out nature of the city to her hosts....:rolleyes: Whereupon the German replied "Ach Ja! But, you see, your husband was one of our chief town planners!".

[Wander00]

I was surprised, saddened and I guess a bit cross to find out for the first time that surviving crews, as Prisoners of War, had been incarcerated in concentration, rather than PoW camps. How come this has not come to light before? Did this gross breach of the Geneva Convention not come to light during the investigations for war crimes trials in Germany? The airmen involved must have kept quiet about it, but with 160+ involved, it is surprising it has not come to light before. I am in awe of their courage and fortitude.

[ColinB]

Not all concentration camps were extermination or work camps. Their original purpose was to have secure units for political prisoners. I know at least one which was until recently still in use as a police barracks.
Please be assured I am not defending such camps.

[Wander00]

But the camp where the aircrew were imprisoned was a "work and death" camp, and had the Luftwaffe not turned up at the 11th hour, it seems that the British aircrew were due to be murdered the following day.

[AlpineSkier]

@ColinB

Their original purpose was to have secure units for political prisoners

Their original purpose was to take anybody the regime didn't like which broadened considerably over the years.

Not all concentration camps were extermination or work camps.

Can you say which were not and when ( if relevant.) I would be interested to know.

I know at least one which was until recently still in use as a police barracks.

Which one please ?

[Self Loading Freight]

There were something like 15,000 concentration camps across Nazi-occupied Europe in total, and they were used for lots of things and held lots of different sorts of people.

It doesn't take long with Google to flesh out the details, of which there are many, and there are worse ways to spend an hour this weekend than to remind ourselves.

The camps' extinction was bought at a very high price. Knowing about them and thinking soberly about how they happened is as respectful towards those who paid that price as wearing the poppy.

R

[ColinB]

Quote:
Their original purpose was to have secure units for political prisoners
Their original purpose was to take anybody the regime didn't like which broadened considerably over the years.

Quote:
Not all concentration camps were extermination or work camps.
Can you say which were not and when ( if relevant.) I would be interested to know.

Quote:
I know at least one which was until recently still in use as a police barracks.
Which one please ?

The list of camps and their uses is better googled.
The original reason for concentration camps was to detain political prisoners as it was outside the scope of the police and the judiciary demanded due process before they could detain and imprison.
At Dachau the former SS barracks adjacent to the camp are now occupied by the Bavarian Bereitschaftspolizei (rapid response police unit)
It is some years since I researched it but this is what I remember as my view at the time.
Germany is a country with a strong religious background and in the 1930s the National Socialists made a number of overtures to the Church to find a justification for the euthanasia program. I do recall one, apparently sympathetic ear, was that of the Bishop of Buckeburg and overtures were also made to the Vatican.
If you are interested the following is my pick of an extensive coverage.
The standard book in my day was Hitler’s Death Camps by Konnilyn Fieg, a balanced view.
The best book I read on the psychology of the camp administrators is Into That Darkness by Gitta Sereny. A story of how Franz Stangl got into and out of the Holocaust. The vision of him supervising the gassing and burning of thousands in his working hours then riding home on his white horse afterwards to tea on the lawn in front of his house with his wife and children stayed with me a long time.
The film Shoa by Claude Lanzmann gives perhaps the best insight into the relationship between the camps and the rural Germans.

[Chugalug2]

Hipper:
According to Wiki: '55,573 killed out of a total of 125,000 aircrew (a 44.4% death rate)'.
I seem to remember that the 50% death rate sometimes quoted takes account of the many new members of Bomber Command not yet operational when hostilities ceased. When they are taken out of the final total then the appalling statistic of 1 in 2 not surviving is arrived at.
Re the medal business, I take PN and TTN's point, but I have always felt that the skies over Germany constituted a geographical Theatre of War in their own right (what Harris termed the Battle of Germany). If a campaign medal had been struck for that alone, a la the Atlantic medal, then much of this rumbling discontent would have been avoided. It would thus have become predominantly, though not entirely, in effect (if not officially) a Bomber Command Medal. Having a generic France Germany Star instead diluted that effect. Given that the Aircrew Europe Star that preceded it was known as the "Bomber Command Medal", the intent of those who stopped the latter in favour of the former gives grounds for some suspicion. By D-Day the anti BC, anti Harris, rhetoric was already in its stride, culminating of course with Churchill's infamous Dresden memo and the non-ennoblement, alone among his peers, of the AOC-in-C Bomber Command.

[Pontius Navigator]

You're quite correct about the escape hatch located under the Bomb Aimer's position. However, I understand it was relatively small, especially for a crew member togged up with flying gear, mae west and parachute. It was also still a struggle for the Nav and Wireless Operator to get right the nose of the aircraft as I understand their crew positions were located in a relatively central position of the fuselage, compared to the Halifax.
When looking at an escape hatch with modern eye we forget that most aircrew were in theor 20s and considerably smaller less well nourished than we are today.

When I was in the nose, ahead of the escape hatch I can assure you I had no fear of getting stuck, quite the reverse.

The navigator was not too badly placed. His canopy on top of the fuselage just behind his seat. All he had to do (if that was not enough) was to squirrel himself partly under the pilot's seat and the gap under the instrument panel.

The radio operator was not as well place IIRC he had a spar to climb over as well unless he used the upper escape hatch (if my memory hasn't failed me).

[Tankertrashnav]

What was the opinion among the post-war 'heavy' crews, such as your own distinguished squadron when you were flying? Or is this all a latter-day, 'benefit of hindsight' push for a specific medal?


Certainly when I first joined there were plenty of WW2 aircrew still around - we had a venerable AEO on 214 up to 1975 who sported the ACE star among his other medals. I dont ever recall any conversations about this subject at the time, I am sure this is something that has come to the fore in more recent times.

Certainly when I was dealing in militaria, including medals, I became very aware of a growing tendency for people wanting some tangible recognition of their service, hence the proliferation of unofficial medals now commonly seen, such as the Normandy Veterans Medal, The National Service Medal etc. One which was succesfully campaigned for was the Pole Star emblem which was recently authorised to be worn on the Atlantic Star ribbon by those who took part in the Arctic Convoys. Perhaps a similar thing could be argued for Bomber Command, but it's really getting rather late, I'd have thought. In any case a bomb symbol might not be quite the thing!

[Fareastdriver]

I dont ever recall any conversations about this subject at the time

I will back that up. My squadron was the same, rows of war medals on everybody from senior Flt Lt up. A lot of the Navs wore the eagle signifying that they served on pathfinder squadrons. They never talked about medals for the Battle of Germany; they never talked about it at all.

[Pontius Navigator]

FED, I think the prevailing attitude in the immediate post-war era was that's done never again and the medals given to the sprogs to play with. Those still serving knew they needed them for the weekly parades and funerals.

My old man always wore the ribbons but never cherished the medals. He wore the ribbons as it was the done thing in the merchant navy or indeed just about any service where uniforms were worn - doormen, policemen, fire service, bus conductors (?).

[FantomZorbin]

Remember serving with a Flt Lt at London Centre, 2 rows of ribbons and a Pathfinder eagle. Thoroughly nice chap however, whenever any representatives from Germany were due to visit, either the Wg Cdr or Gp Capt would have a gentle word and the watch roster would be quietly changed to put him on 'gardening leave' for the day. We never heard the reasons why and we wouldn't dream of asking.

[Pontius Navigator]

FZ, many years ago at a dining in night a GAF Transall returned to Waddo as he could not find any open airfield in Europe and he trusted the Waddo controllers. We were Red at the time and they tried to get him to go elsewhere.

Anyway they then came to the drinks afterwards in No 1s, white shirts and possibly even bow ties. OC Ops, who had no medals as far as I can recall, stormed out and would not stay in the mess when they were there.

A few years after that on a campsite in France there was a German couple. He had a very bad limp. My wife said Hello Hello by was of introduction and eventually asked about the limp.

"Ach, it was the war you know. He got it in ze blitz. What does your husband do?"

Mrs PN, like a flash "Oh, he is just a civil servant." Guaranteed to kill any further questions. :}

OTOH, some years later at the BoB Cocktail Party PMC spies German navigator exchange officer and apologies along the lines of embarassment and perhaps he should not have been expected to attend.

"Not at all", he said, "without us you would not have had an excuse for a party."

[Chugalug2]

PN, your anecdotes remind me of a Guest Night at RAFC in the very early '60s. Gus Walker presided at Top Table. A serving (but ex wartime also) Luftwaffe General sat beside him. Those nearby said that Gus ignored him all night. Such boorish behaviour from such a gallant and affable man speaks volumes of the real depths of feeling below the surface calm.
TTN:
...the Pole Star emblem which was recently authorised to be worn on the Atlantic Star ribbon by those who took part in the Arctic Convoys I see that in concert with the call for a Bomber Campaign Medal (a Battle of Germany Star?) there are equally calls for those who took part in the Arctic Convoys to receive a separate medal (an Arctic Star?). Most had already earned the Atlantic Star anyway, in an ocean some 800 miles away! That both the Arctic and Bomber Campaigns gave enormous assistance to the Red Army's ability to push the Wehrmacht ever westwards is of note. That ally was rapidly becoming a potential, if not an actual foe, when these medals were not struck.

[Tankertrashnav]

That ally was rapidly becoming a potential, if not an actual foe, when these medals were not struck.


You are right - politics and medals go hand in hand. After WW2, medals awarded by our American, French and Belgian allies, for example, were authorised to be worn after British medals, whereas those recipients of Soviet awards were not permitted to wear theirs. There were around 100 British recipients of Soviet orders, including four RAF aircrew from 151 Wing (Hurricanes) in North Russia who received the Order of Lenin. These would certainly have caused comment on parade had they been permitted to wear them!

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, good point about the Soviet medals.


What was the rationale for not awarding both Pacific and Burma stars?

[Pontius Navigator]

There were around 100 British recipients of Soviet orders, including four RAF aircrew from 151 Wing (Hurricanes) in North Russia who received the Order of Lenin.

There is an ex-member of 151 Wing that frequents the RAF Club most afternoons for tea. He was subsequently at AA in Moscow. Charming chap and quite ready to talk.

He goes the the Russian memorial service each may which is held near the IWM.

[Tankertrashnav]

Interesting about the 151 Wing chap - is he ever there at weekends? I'll be staying 9th-11th Dec, would be nice to say hello.

What was the rationale for not awarding both Pacific and Burma stars?

At some stage it was decided that the maximum number of stars which could be awarded to one individual was five. I assume this was probably a matter of practicality, as groups of 6 or 7 stars with the other campaign medals might just be too unwieldy, but I'm only guessing. So you could get the Burma Star with the Pacific clasp, or vice versa.

As well as that example, you could only get either the Aircrew Europe Star or the Atlantic Star - not both. Clasps for the second star qualified for were worn on the ribbon of the first. I have seen a few groups with the maximum five stars, with clasps on the stars - Prince Philip's medals are a good example.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, the 9th is a Friday so he may be there. Small and unasuming, dark hair and dark moustache. Usually far corner of the Cowdray Room either at the bar or the otherside of it. Dark jacket.

The give away is the Arctic Star.

You could ask the bar maid.

[Silksaheen]

Yes the Lanc is very narrow and clambering over the main spar in the dark in full gear with a flaming aircraft about to ditch is not fun. (My father’s Lanc exploded in the air: http://www.flensted.eu.com/1944078.shtml (http://www.flensted.eu.com/1944078.shtml) ) If ‘tail-end Charlie’s’ turret jammed, he wend down with the plain. All alone in the back he was the first to be shot by the enemy coming from behind. Often the rear gunner would knock out the thin Perspex to have better night vision; the hours of sub-zero temperatures would freeze his feet as often the sweat from his heated boots short-circuited the electrics. If you have the chance to visit the superb museum in East Kirkby (my father was an F/E there with 630 Squadron) they have a working Lancaster and you can see how basic and cramped it is, plus hear the Merlins at full power: http://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/ (http://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/)
We go to England each July for the Squadron reunion and memorial service: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IttCz3ZZ-Q After Fighter Command had secured the homeland, http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/battleofbritain/11421.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/battleofbritain/11421.shtml) it was the role of Bomber Command to take the war to heart of the enemy to finish the job.
As with the Bomber Command memorial, recognition of Dowding and later Harris, whose statues are in front of the RAF Church, St. Clement Danes in the Strand, London, had no government support and were paid for by public subscription.
There is a Battle of Britain Memorial Chapel at Biggin Hill:http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=8777 (http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=8777)

[foldingwings]

TTN

I'll be staying 9th-11th Dec,

You'll be in bad company then! The place will be full of Buccaneer guys after the Blitz (unless you are one of course but your TTN moniker suggests not).

See you there, if I can still focus once the whisky is in me!

Foldie:}

[jindabyne]

Now, I'll be there also. And as Foldie and others, on fine form. But the whisky, Black Grouse this year, will be on me. Foldie has told me so ----- :uhoh:
Who knows, maybe RPE may buy a round this time:rolleyes:

[Tankertrashnav]

Seriously considering cancelling my booking and seeing if the YMCA have any vacancies ;)

[jindabyne]

Small and unasuming, dark hair and dark moustache

Please will you hold up your extended open hand as well ?

[foldingwings]

No TTN, don't decamp! We are very hospitable and you will find us in the Cowdray Room after 'lights out' armed with a good malt (or 2). Make yourself known and you can join in!

Foldie:ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

Most kind, Foldie, will hope to see you there :ok:

[BEagle]

Bucc mates welcoming a VFW amongst their midst? Things are looking up!

Top banter, jinda'!

Hope you all have a great time - and may your GS MIs never go cross-hatched!

[foldingwings]

TTN, You didn't show! My mate Jindy was accosting all sorts of likely lads with the passing phrase "TankerTrashNav?" but none responded positively!

You better have a good excuse!

Foldie:(

PS. One bottle of Black Grouse duly emptied!

[jindabyne]

My body is unwell still, very. Maybe they took one look at our little gathering Foldie and thought better of it :ooh: Also RPE no-show. Next year it's you for the BG!

RAFC as good as ever - and for some reason was upgraded to a double on the new fifth floor. Very tasteful and comfortable in all respects. Dining room meal first night, with our Runnin' Horse nosh after the Blitz - both v.good. Breakfast packed out, good atmosphere, and the usual excellent buffet. Dress not an issue. Staff, without exception, friendly and helpful. No probs with the other inmates, young, very young, and very old :)

Maybe 2012 TTN?

[Tankertrashnav]

Foldie - many apologies - was in the dining room earlier and was delighted to take some photos of a member's 90th birthday party dinner (12 family present). Had a nice chat with him about his times as a Coastal Command Wellington pilot. Unglamorous hard work with 12 hour sorties at 1000' in all sorts of weather. However after dinner daughter was in town and we were dragged off by her elsewhere so wasn't in the Cowdray later on - so sorry, but pleased you had a good time.

Club excellent and staff brilliant as always. Chatting to a couple of staff in the Cowdray earlier - one from Estonia and the other from Slovakia - strange that 20 plus years ago they wouldn't have got over the club threshold let alone get a job there - times have certainly changed for the better in that respect. Sorry to miss Fred but spotted his "wing commander's" uniform hanging in the baggage room and I understand he's still working weekdays which is good to know.

Glad you all good had a good time, and as you say, maybe next year.

[foldingwings]

TTN,

That'll do, hope you had a great weekend. I saw Fred on Friday morning, usual pleasantries - he never forgets a face or a name, but then I was on the committee years ago so.................!

The Club is in fine fettle and prosperring. The relaxed dress code makes it much more user friendly and it was good to see that all rooms were booked and there was 'no space at the inn'! Already booked for next year and this time got a contingency in place so that I don't end up with a box-room and WC (my fault - changed my reservation at last minute) rather than a palace with en suite!

I think the bunnyman said he was bringing the whisky next year Jinda!

Foldie:ok:

[Hugh Spencer]

Hi XV 490, I am sorry I haven't replird before but I have been in hospital for a month. My relationship with the Lancaster is still very close. It flies over Eastbourne every year and is still a delight to see. I cannot quite see what you mean by ' afford a bit of distance between myself and a Lancaster. Could you come back to me on this point?

[Dundiggin']

Gents,
In case you are unaware, there is a fabulous book called 'Men of Air' by Kevin Wilson which is about 'The doomed youth of Bomber Command'. It is detailed enough to enable those that were there to re-live the drama and atmosphere of that time and for those who weren't there to half appreciate the grief these poor buggers had to put up with. The Times wrote: 'Wilson's detailed accounts and analyses of what amounted to virtual suicide missions are thorough, thrilling and profoundly moving'.

[Blacksheep]

...all the WW2 campaign stars were theatre awards, there were no special cases, The real missing one was the Arctic Star that was never issued. Apparently, the powers-that-be considered the Arctic Sea to be part of the Atlantic Ocean.

My father served both in the Arctic and in the Atlantic and said they were two completely different matters. In the Arctic he recalled having to take an Aldis lamp to his hammock because it was frozen fast to his hand. On another occasion an oerlikon gunner in a position on the signals bridge froze to death at his action station because the black heater had failed. A man who slipped and fell overboard while chipping ice off the forecastle was left - on the grounds that he'd be dead before they could come about. Not to mention the fact that they operated within range of land based aircraft and were under almost constant air attack - especially in "summer" when the sun never set. He said it would be more appropriate for an Atlantic button to stick on an Arctic Star ribbon than the other way round. As it was he had an Atlantic Star and never lived long enough to put the Arctic button on his ribbon.

Dad was back in the Arctic in the fifties and that was one good reason why he abandoned his naval career and came ashore after 14 years service.

[Rakshasa]

The 55,000 figure is total casualties and losses, so includes killed, wounded, missing and POWs.

[Weheka]

(The 55,000 figure is total casualties and losses, so includes killed, wounded, missing and POWs.)

Unfortunately not.

As in earlier posts, about 55,500 killed in Bomber Command out of a total of 125,000 aircrew. Plus, 8,400 wounded and 9,800 POWs.

Only 27 out of a 100 men on average would complete a tour of 30 ops.

Incredible bravery to go out night after night with a fair idea of the odds stacked against them.