Departure Alternate??

[aviatorhi]

Sec. 121.617 — Alternate airport for departure;

This section essentially states that if the WX is below approach minima then the flight must be dispatched or released with a departure alternate...

What I'm not clear on is the ambiguity given to the concept of detemining this. Say that, for instance, I am released for flight and while holding short of the runway for takeoff the WX decreases below this limit, in my mind since I have been already dispatched/released I do not need to obtain a departure alternate from dispatch/flight following. Am I correct in this interpretation?

I'm wondering because I commonly hear/see pilots calling for a takeoff alternate when this has happened in the past.

[DXR]

It is our policy, and I'm almost 99% sure FAA interpretation, that until the crew is powering up for take off, you would still need to add a take off alternate if the weather went below landing mins at your departure airport.

We add/change destination alternates, take-off altnernates, ETOPS Alternates, certain MEL's (if the flight crew can accomplish the procedure), route changes, etc before take off but after block out as required. Usually, if the actuals are anwyhere close i'll add the t/o atlternates early, doesn't cost you anything (usually fuel isn't an issue for a take off altn) and it beats waiting till the last minute. If it has to be last minute, the plane waits until they have one to go. Not ideal, but it's the rules.

Personally, if they take off and poop an engine or have a fire, emergency is going to be declared and all that paper goes out the window, then all the rules are thrown out except for the safety of flight one.

[aviatorhi]

I agree on adding/modifying alternate airports enroute etc. etc., but, that is required by 121.631. I cannot find any such requirement for a T/O Alternate. While it may behoove one to be aware of the nearest airport with appropriate weather to act as a T/O alternate in a given situation, I'm speaking on a strictly legal sense. If the regulation is intended to prevent takeoff from the origin without the T/O alternate it should specify that, instead it specifies the flight may not be dispatched/released.

[merlinxx]

Apply a rerelease

[aviatorhi]

Rerelease/Redispatch is a completely different concept having to do with "restarting" a flight once enroute.

If you're talking about an amendment to the original dispatch or release then as I've said before, I can't find a requirement to provide a departure alternate to a flight which has already released and encountered weather below landing minimums prior to departure. I've searched through the FARs and through FSIMS with no results. I am beginning to suspect that it is, in fact, a "creation" of sim/line operations, which is not legally required.

[dispatch72]

A takeoff alternate is required when weather reported (METAR) at departure is below landing minimums at departure airport.

[boyesbingaman]

departure alternate are free.
they dont in anyway increase ur fuel figures or burn..
why not throw one on there if the wx drops.
you can always amend the release and im pretty sure the pilot would appreciate that
better safe than sorry!

[Gulfstreamaviator]

headline said it all, will try to re write entire missive....

post 9 is a much shortened original posting.


glf

[Gulfstreamaviator]

As pilots, we can not instantly return to land, very often well over weight... Once needed to burn off 5 hours of gas to facilite this....so we continued towards destination.

OK, fire another set of rules, but then rules is rules.

glf

[mohamed_disp]

* A takeoff alternate is required when weather reported (METAR) at departure is below landing minimums at departure airport.

in narmal case may we need to landing after takeoff so if the takeoff metar minima is oky so we don't have problem exept the a/c wieght
and the max landing wieht able for the a/c type
but if we have aready metar at origin a/c is below landing minima
in this case we need to file takeoff alternate to be use if we need it

but we must check for the wieghts of landing case in long range case may be we will need drop feel first to be able to landing with the maxlanding waight

i hope that my word is useful for you
thank's
b.regads

[mad_jock]

All aircraft are certified to land at MTOW in the event of an emergency.

In the situation that a pilot would be needing to worrying about a TO alt ie uncontained engine fire, control issues, bits falling off. The fact that they are over weight will not stop them landing.

[gordon field]

All aircraft are certified to land at MTOW in the event of an emergency. !!!!!!

Never heard of this before...Chapter and verse please.

[mad_jock]

Its part of the certification standard for both FAA and JAR certified aircraft.

There will be maint checks required afterwards depending on the type these can be extensive or a 5 min job depending on the flight parameters recorded on touchdown. Heavy aircraft your looking at shagged gear and tyres and TP's the gingers boot the tyres have a look for leaks while sorting out the reason why you have landed in the first place.

Its not something to be taken lightly but you are not going to be circling burning off fuel for 30 mins to get under MLW with an uncontained engine fire.

Loosing an engine then securing it with no other issues wouldn't be a valid excuse to immediately land. But if there were other issues which were coming into play for example the wx was coming in, other systems were dropping out, there wasn't a clear cut reason why the first engine shut down so fuel contamination was suspected you get the bird on the deck. It all comes down to the PIC's risk assement of staying in the air V over max weight landing.

Here is a thread in the tech form by chaps that are way way more experenced than myself

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/273922-overweight-landing-when-necessary.html

[Max Angle]

Loosing an engine then securing it with no other issues wouldn't be a valid excuse to immediately land.It would be if you only had one remaining. 3 or 4 engine drivers might take their time but in a twin you would land ASAP whether at MLW or not.

[mad_jock]

I wouldn't if there wasn't another factor involved.

Which is in my SOP's

And there are 50% of the TRE's say land ASAP and the other 50% say burn it off.

Very similar to a V1 engine fire when we have 2000m of runway left in front front of us and the max landing distance required is 1550m. Personally I always go for the abort I get a pat on the back and friendly wiggle of the finger and you naughty boy from half of them and the other half launch into the bollocking about V1 is the....... I am sure you know the score.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Heavy aircraft your looking at shagged gear and tyres
Wrong.

Personally I always go for the abort I get a pat on the back and friendly wiggle of the finger and you naughty boy from half of them and the other half launch into the bollocking about V1 is the
Is that what you brief? Couldn't give a flying fist **** if you can or can't stop after V1 but what's the point in briefing something that you're not going to comply with. Not setting a very good example are you!?

[mad_jock]

yep thats the bollocking

We have 7 mins average before the main spar burns through having in wing engines if its uncontained and the main spar is one side of the main tanks. You would be dead before turning base.

Every airport is different it is of course a completely different kettle of fish with say Dundee or Plymouth compared to MAN or Filton.

I also brief as well we are not stopping for certain reds. Cabin Alt being one of them which is the joy of flying a old airframe which has old wiring looms and microswitches that were developed for the lancaster bomber and a emergency brake handle from an Austin Clubman.

[mohamed_disp]

dears all:-
there are many reason to have heavy landing
in normall case:-
----------------
we have max takeoff wieght and we have max landing wieght and also we have manufacture max landing weight ex.
max take off 170000kgs and max landing 130000 kgs and max landing manufacture 140000 kgs
in the maintenance they have number that they know the can do heavy landing and it 's between the 130000 and 140000 kgs and after the aircraft will be on ground the report the categry of the heavy land case each categry have a kind of checks.
note if a/c not with in limit i can drop the fuel or hold untill able ot land
minima

in the up-normall case:-
----------------------
this case i have reason un controllable like fire or main controll serves crack or stack i need to be on ground as soon as possible the airport must involve in this case the landing will crash the landing gear and may be some parts of run way so the airport must accept this kind of landing to be able at
1-divert the remaining a/c flow or coordinate the flow if the a/p have another a/p (with the area control and tower).
2- advise all a/p department that the have declare emergence
there is generall rolls and special rolls for every airport
there are generall aviation roll to the airport's and special roll for evrey airport in this case

[mohamed_disp]

it is realy good word it is capt decision