PDA

View Full Version : All Engineers need to sign


Landing Lamp
8th Nov 2011, 14:23
Guys just found this worthy e-petition on the goverments website to protect the term "Engineer".

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/6271

orion1210
8th Nov 2011, 17:05
The preamble suggests that an LAE would not be worthy of the engineer title!!

Rigga
8th Nov 2011, 17:52
Not signed as it would downgrade Licenced Aircraft Engineers to technicians.

This petition seems to be for degree qualified designers and manufacturers who feel they are being degraded by washing machine and fridge engineers (and LAEs too).

blackhand
8th Nov 2011, 19:43
Not signed as it would downgrade Licenced Aircraft Engineers to technicians.
Why do you wish to wear the title of Engineer when you aren't an Engineer?
Engineers design stuff, we build and maintain the stuff.

Cheers\BH

Beeline
8th Nov 2011, 20:20
Simple google search.

en·gi·neer   [en-juh-neer] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person trained and skilled in the design, construction, and use of engines or machines, or in any of various branches of engineering: a mechanical engineer; a civil engineer.
2.
a person who operates or is in charge of an engine.
3.
Also called locomotive engineer. Railroads. a person who operates or is in charge of a locomotive.
4.
a member of an army, navy, or air force specially trained in engineering work.
5.
a skillful manager: a political engineer.

I think I qualify as an LAE.

blackhand
8th Nov 2011, 20:32
a person trained and skilled in the design, construction, and use of engines or machines, or in any of various branches of engineering: a mechanical engineer; a civil engineer.
Says it all. Not an LAE

Cheers

Beeline
8th Nov 2011, 20:38
Think you can interpret my quote how you like, still reads LAE equals Engineer.

Its even in the title.

Aircraft is a big machine with big engines. And i use them.

grounded27
8th Nov 2011, 20:48
Here in the USA we are titled as "technitions". I would much prefer the title of Engineer, once you looze it it will be gone forever. We are actually classified as unskilled labour thanks to airlines before my time such as Eastern. Aircraft maintenance to them is what a car is to us, a liability not an asset. This cultural ideal is distructive and dangerous, they don't seem to understand the concept of you get what you pay for! The bean counters have no scale for quality = reliability, or are pressured not to venture into this issue as it would reveal a costly answer.

TURIN
8th Nov 2011, 21:07
Been done to death many times here.

EG. http://www.pprune.org/engineers-technicians/398776-aircraft-technician-considered-engineer.html

Kuchan
8th Nov 2011, 21:16
UK CAA LAE is termed as Licensed Aircraft Engineer who is recognised by UK Government as an engineer (with professional qualifications) having the authority to countersign a new passport application. An engineering degree holder ( mechanical or civil ) has no such privilege.

UK LAE on BCAR day are real engineer who have to go thru 2 hrs ORAL EXAM with 1 to 2 surveyors with knowledge to sketch FCU and to explain its operation etc.

The early JAR day were slightly easier with one surveyor for oral.Then the later JAR deal away with oral exam.

Nowaday, EASA AMEL (Aircraft maintenance Engineer Licence) holder is watered down to almost equivalent to FAA with the freely issued FULL B1, B2 and C from others, mainly Easter EU.

May be we are now a mechanic, same as in the States.

cessna24
8th Nov 2011, 22:13
although Kuchan I agree with what your saying, I do realise that having a 2hr oral was very hard and it did seperate the men from the boys but....Todays B1/B2 exams are hard. I spent 2 years completing all 13 modules and I have to say that if thats easy, then your talents are wasted in maintenance... maybe NASA could do with someone like you!!!!:rolleyes:
"UK LAE on BCAR day are real engineer" Im not sure, but do you not probably do what I do?......fix aircraft? or do companys now only let, in your terms, "real engineer" fix aircraft and leave us pretty B1's with B737ALL, A320, B757/B767 A330/A340 sit at the side and play stickle bricks!!!! hmmmmmmm............

Kuchan
8th Nov 2011, 22:32
Cessna24

To spend 2 yrs to pass all 13 modules and be proud of it is a joke.

I hold all your mentioned licences and more.

I spent 2 full years doing CAA A and C course just to get the Cessna licence.

I spent my time with 4 BCAR oral exams and was only B1 with limitations after converted to EASA.

I spent nearly 2 year self study after work without doing much overtime to get my basic pressurised airframe and engine licence.

I spent less than 6 months self study to pass all 5 modules incl. module 3,4 5 7 and 11 to remove my limitation.

I fix more aircraft than you ever turn round aircraft.

Look at jobsearch why Singapore/Malaysia are specified only UK CAA EASA AMEL need to apply,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

cessna24
8th Nov 2011, 22:41
For one minute I never doubt you have worked on more than me and that is not the issue.
And just because I took two years to do it, Im still proud to be an engineer and when I look through the list of examinations, I do not see, 'The one who completes it the quickest is gonna be right in every disscussion'.
Im sorry but with a reply like I would be embarrased to call your self a professional and I feel sorry for any new guy coming up through the ranks to have you as a supervisor! My background is to never knock anyone for their achievments. Just because your stuck in the 'well in my day', move on mate its 2011!!:ugh:

stevef
8th Nov 2011, 22:46
I don't doubt that it's difficult to pass the EASA B1/2 initial licence but at least you can take it in bite-size chunks. :)
It was a one-shot attempt with the BCAR Section L system- no credits for the subjects you did all right in. You'd have to take the whole examination again if you didn't get 70% (and don't forget the negative marking!).
Then, as said, an hour or two with the surveyor if you passed the writtens. I've been fortunate enough to pass everything I've taken so far.
Any licencing examination success is an real achievement though, no matter when taken.

Kuchan
8th Nov 2011, 22:49
Cessna

"then your talents are wasted in maintenance... maybe NASA could do with someone like you!!!!"

You have a short memory of what u said.

cessna24
8th Nov 2011, 22:59
stevef, I have the upmost respect for the guys who completed and attempted the BCAR exams and Orals.
I admit that I would have struggled and to the guys who completed it had to know there stuff and was unable to blag there way into a licence.
So please, no one take this as my dig to any licence holder BCAR or B1/B2.
Just when I read people saying that the B1/B2 licence is watered down then I do take offence to that as I know from experience, and from my colleages how hard it is to complete and thanks to chunk sized courses it makes it less harder! {Kinda}.
Remember Kuchen, I learnt from the BCAR section L guys and I cant thank them enough for making me how and where I am today!

Kuchan
8th Nov 2011, 23:39
My point is clear that the EASA AMEL is watered down by the influx of eastern European holder freely issuing AMEL regardless.

The contractor wages is fast coming down from 38 euro per hour to as low as 24 euro with job taken by Eastern EU holders. Most pays around 30 euro.

It is sad you are still dreaming and insulting as much.

piggybank
8th Nov 2011, 23:55
For my two cents worth. I do not care what they call me, just pay me the big bucks.

I am licenced and still call myself a mech.

Think money not status.

I pay more in tax than most of the jobs in advertised in Flight International pay 'real engineers' and licenced engineers.

After all the talk has died down, the main need in my life is money, not status

cessna24
9th Nov 2011, 00:35
True,
I shake your hand Kuchan. No hard feelings.
Lets get as much money as possible from our licence! As a uk resident I want to see us brits getting Brits jobs and getting paid nicely for it.
mech, engineer, tech, spanner monkey flying spanner what ever we are called!

blackhand
9th Nov 2011, 04:41
For my two cents worth. I do not care what they call me, just pay me the big bucks.

I am licenced and still call myself a mech.

Think money not status.Agreed with completely. Throw money not kudos.
I've been a mechanic for over 30 years, motorbikes, cars, trucks, light aircraft and medium helicopters. Its all nuts and bolts only arranged differently.
Cheers
BH

bvcu
9th Nov 2011, 11:30
With your licence and enough experience you can be registered as an engineer with the engineering council through the Raes and add the relevant letters after your name as do the design etc guys.

cedgz
9th Nov 2011, 14:29
whatever how they call us, we will only do one thing, fix the airplane to get it airworthy. as i don't design(real engineers) i'm monkey mechanic
and yes, i did an aviation school in europe, and the cursus i had was above B1 and B2 level course. so am i an overeducated inteligent(i lie again) engineer?
they can call me mech, tech, engineer, president, whatever, as long my pay is good.
So guys, put your proud on the side, just be good at what you do, and keep on learning as much as possible each day, that's what make de difference between individuals
ps: i rather work with a guy who has a brain that a useless stupid fully qualified B1,B2,etc engineer
have fun and enjoy your day

Kuchan
9th Nov 2011, 15:29
We are blue collar workers regardless of whatever titles we are given.

As most LAE agree, we are here to make money so as to laugh all the way to our banks as piggybank has.

Cessna, no hard feeling. UK EASA AMEL is worth the title LAE with high standard.

Now UK AOC has experienced recruiting UK EASA LAE that the wages are starting to go up. 40K min for new recruit. 50K for B2 + benefits. One UAE airlines in UK even over 55K + benefits for a EU EASA AMEL.

As I said before, Singapore/Malaysia Airlines specify on UK CAA EASA AMEL applicants, not EU EASA AMEL.

The problem is there is no consistency in the general standard of EASA AMEL among EU LAE. The German and others are unfortunately being dragged into the mud as well.

Now, you can have full level 3 B1 B2 combined course in one go. With Practical OJT/certificate, you are deem to get your EASA AMEL.

My EU colleague couldn't even find the numbering of stringers in AMM/SRM.

As piggy says, as long as they pay us decent wages, who care what they call us.

Genghis the Engineer
9th Nov 2011, 15:59
Oh that one again.

I have a degree (two in fact), added on several years more training, then a few more years doing a responsible professional engineering job - and for all that get to call myself a Chartered Engineer (and I can sign passport photographs!).

In the hangar next door to my office are people with several years at college, rather more years of training, a shedload of CAA exams passed, and they are called Licenced Engineers.

And I can sit down with them and work through systems diagrams and analysis - some stuff I'm a lot better than they are, some stuff they're a lot better than me, we're all engineers.

All of us put on overalls occasionally, all of us put a suit on occasionally.


And occasionally somebody comes into the office to fix the photocopier. They probably did a 6 week course, and are a semi-skilled technician.

I do agree with protection of the word "Engineer" for people with a high degree of education, AND training, AND assessment. I wouldn't give it to an unskilled mechanic, and I wouldn't give it to a fresh Engineering graduate still working their way to IEng or CEng. I would give it to a Licenced, Incorporated or Chartered Engineer.

G

grounded27
9th Nov 2011, 18:43
We are blue collar workers regardless of whatever titles we are given.

As most LAE agree, we are here to make money so as to laugh all the way to our banks as piggybank has.

Cessna, no hard feeling. UK EASA AMEL is worth the title LAE with high standard.

Now UK AOC has experienced recruiting UK EASA LAE that the wages are starting to go up. 40K min for new recruit. 50K for B2 + benefits. One UAE airlines in UK even over 55K + benefits for a EU EASA AMEL.

As I said before, Singapore/Malaysia Airlines specify on UK CAA EASA AMEL applicants, not EU EASA AMEL.

The problem is there is no consistency in the general standard of EASA AMEL among EU LAE. The German and others are unfortunately being dragged into the mud as well.

Now, you can have full level 3 B1 B2 combined course in one go. With Practical OJT/certificate, you are deem to get your EASA AMEL.

My EU colleague couldn't even find the numbering of stringers in AMM/SRM.

As piggy says, as long as they pay us decent wages, who care what they call us.


Simply the reason we are not making 120-170k instead of your 40-60. Back in the early 80's a pilot's earnings and a mechanics were just about on par. Today a Captain is laughing much harder on his way to the bank than you are. There are many factors for pilot's growing their wage, title is certainly one of them. A rock solid contract is another, that's a different issue.

mad_jock
9th Nov 2011, 19:47
I always liked the term artificer.

Quite frankly you really don't want to be lumped in with fresh out of Uni gradutes.

TURIN
9th Nov 2011, 21:01
Bravo Genghis. Spot on.:D

Can we close the thread now? :bored:

Beeline
10th Nov 2011, 20:30
Ha ha no I think we should carry on with the my licence is bigger than yours!!

Why don't we earn the way we did. The answer is in this thread, no solidarity, im worth more than you etc. If we stuck together like pilots we would be taken more seriously, better T&Cs etc.

Extremely unprofessional chaps.

Thank you Genghis for your intervention.

stevef
10th Nov 2011, 22:01
I'm still disappointed about losing my BCAR Section L AMEL five-digit number in favour of the 'new' seven-figure reference. :{
You knew where you were with regard to other licence holders. :8

woptb
10th Nov 2011, 22:18
Don't care how big your todger is or how much you wave it,show me the money !
Aircraft are just 'piloted' UAV's ! Aircrew are just an expensive PR exercise :}

Kuchan
10th Nov 2011, 22:57
CAA is no longer issue new National BCAR Section L licences, except for those aircraft listed within Annex II. ( old aircraft etc)

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/177/8355%20Section%20I_07.pdf
Section 1-11, General Information.

So, you could have BCAR for Annex II and EASA AMEL for Airbus/Boeing with the new 7 digit reference.

grounded27
10th Nov 2011, 23:58
Why don't we earn the way we did. The answer is in this thread, no solidarity, im worth more than you etc. If we stuck together like pilots we would be taken more seriously, better T&Cs etc.

Extremely unprofessional chaps.



I agree with you and there is no way to have a strong contract w/o solidarity. In fact if we had true solidarity we would be able to write our own paycheck. I am just saying that a simple but valuable factor that does raise the level of pride among a group would be a title, one known and respected. Question, simply by public perception would the masseses ecpect a mechanic to earn more than an engineer? Thought not.

Pilots as we know, not to belittle are simple people who learn a technique and learn how to follow procedures, after some experience are allowed to use a little bit of common sence (a Captain). Yet they have promoted themselves over the years to the fine position they hold, first in title and pride (the glory days). Then through public perception solidarity as grown from what was said above and safety/reliability. Good for them. The negitive "I'm just a greese monkey" attitude is dragging us all down.

Krystal n chips
11th Nov 2011, 05:57
This rose tinted perception of the old Section L BCAR oral exam with a CAA surveyor needs to be put into context I feel.

In essence, whilst it was ( in theory ) a detailed examination of your knowledge ( and lack of ) it could also be wholly dependent on the whims and personal quirks of the surveyor...for example, the one who conducted my first attempt made no secret of the fact he did not like ex RAF engineers...hence the smirk of satisfaction when I was unable to answer some obscure electrical question contained in about 4 lines within CAIP's...same individual also told a colleague just before the exam that, as he already had an engine type rating, if he failed the basic airframe..he could take his t/r of him !..he did though, meet his match with another, who, when called by his surname ( note the arrogance here ) duly responded with the surname of said surveyor...it was all down hill thereafter of course, but a moral victory nevertheless....it is my understanding however, that karma, shall we say, arrived one balmy night on a tropical beach....

My second attempt ( which I passed ) involved a rather long interrogation about, erm, aerodynamics...this being, as per Mastermind, his chosen subject.

The cessation of the oral examination did, at least, remove the wild variations of subjectivity then in force.

Kuchan
11th Nov 2011, 10:35
I heard of that ex-RAF rumour too. Unfortunately, BCAR oral had its bad point.

After spending a year burning the mid night oil, I failed my basic pressurised aircraft after 1.5 hrs of gruesome torment. I swore (behind him) the surveyor was XXXX, XXXX to my colleagues.

I spent another 4 months burning more oil and passed after 45 minutes oral with more confident of the subjects. Yes, you learn to be the Master mind of aircraft.

Now, I came out of !47 school with A340 B1,B2 type and practical certificates and EASA type rating from CAA within a space of 4 months. Some do it in less than 3 months with signed OJT worksheets.

Before I power up the aircraft, I solemnly pray "don't **** on me, baby. I can only kiss (fix) you by pulling CBs and re-racking in the Avionic bay , I have no clue of tickling your tits (engines), fiddling your belly button ( press & L/D gears system) or combing your pubic hair (electrical wiring), Amen"

Genghis the Engineer
11th Nov 2011, 12:40
I think it's worth mentioning that most pilots (that is, with the exception of airline long haul crews, short haul captains, and a few people in specialist jobs) make a lot less money than most engineers.

I make a good comfortable - but far from exceptional - salary as an Engineer i/c and a CEng and have no great complaints. I also hold a CPL with a basic instructors qualification: if I did flying instruction full time (as opposed to a few evenings and weekends as at present) I'd be dropping my pay to maybe 30% of what I make in the day-job. I have friends who are commercial instructors with fATPL/IR/ME/FI/etc... making around £25k: very poor money compared to most engineers whether licenced or graduate; certainly compared to an engineer with as many years post-qualification experience as they have. It would cost me maybe £12k to add on the bits that qualify me to fly RHS in an airliner, and take a 40% pay-cut to do so.

The best paid pilots certainly do make more than the best paid engineers, the worst paid pilots however make far less than the worst paid engineers. We have a very different pay structure to the 2-winged master race. A new LAME with a set of licences may well be doing better than a new F/O with the same airline! That F/O of-course having run up £30-£80k in training debt - far more than any engineer is likely to spend getting qualified. A new engineering graduate with a BEng on the graduate training scheme is probably on £25k - similar to a new F/O, but with probably half the training debt.

Yes, I'd like to raise our status and income, but I really don't think that it's quite as bad, particularly compared to pilots, as some have painted it here.

G

Rigga
11th Nov 2011, 17:52
All nice words, but I'd still like to RETAIN my engineer status and not be robbed of it by a change of definition from a group of self-serving people with some sort of agenda/purpose.

There will always be a difference of opinion regarding who has what grade of qualification, whether it be from Oxford, Cambridge, Sunderland or Dudley.

There will always be debate over who really is the title, such as "Doctors" - of medicine? music? art? language? mathematics? physics? philosophy? or just plain Ju-Ju?

If engineers can be redefined then so can "doctors" of engineering.


On the LAE front - I spent 4 hours sitting my section L Oral exams for A&C Jet Helicopters - since found the surveyor was a bit of a stickler and that explained why we went through the whole of the Section L Syllabus.

I have since passed more A's & C's and Type Ratings, and converted to Pt 66.
I haven't written a Thesis (as such) but I feel I've earned the title quoted on my original government approved and internationally recognised licences (Aircraft Maintenance Engineer's Licence)

Genghis the Engineer
12th Nov 2011, 14:16
The lack of a thesis is probably only a problem if you plan going into any kind of research role. Many countries - including the USA - award BEng (or equivalent) degrees without a dissertation - just the UK doesn't. Clearly, it's not got a lot to do with fixing poorly aeroplanes - although doubtless if a LAME decides to do something like an MBA or an MSc in Air Transport Management, they'll have the joys of writing plenty of such things!

Incidentally, there is a Doctor of Engineering qualification (Eng.D), it's highly regarded and takes 4-5 years for an existing engineering graduate. (I'm not an Eng.D, just for the record, plain vanilla CEng who did a PhD later - albeit in Aerospace Engineering. The PhD is a shorter and may even be an easier qualification than the Eng.D, although it didn't feel particularly short or easy to me!).

G

Flightmech
12th Nov 2011, 14:30
I'm with piggybank.

When working for a UK company with my BCAR Section L or Part 66 I was an Engineer.

While working for my US company with my A&P I was a Mechanic, now I'm a Technician.

I don't really care as long as it doesn't affect my pay.

ShyTorque
12th Nov 2011, 14:42
wotb,

Aircraft are just 'piloted' UAV's ! Aircrew are just an expensive PR exercise

If flying was easy, they could get a mechanic to do it. :)

Kuchan
12th Nov 2011, 15:15
Shy torque

Crews are trained to do their job the best they could, same as LAE or mechanic.

Majority of LAE are down to earth and have a sense of humour to survive in the aviation environment.

You write your defects in T/L, we pen if OFF in big time.

Afterall, we do respect each others with the exception of a minority.

ShyTorque
12th Nov 2011, 17:31
Kuchan,

I think I keep a very good professional relationship with the engineers who look after my aircraft. We have respect for each other.

However, banter like that from "wotpb" always deserves a return hit as it comes over the net. ;)

mtoroshanga
14th Nov 2011, 13:34
That's interesting. I had an ARB licence which included a 'B' overhaul licence and I did have to write a thesis as well as Oral,Multi Choice and Written as well as a practical which caused all sorts of problems as it required having an aircraft available for half a day. This was in the early '70s of course.

Kuchan
14th Nov 2011, 17:21
Wow, that was before my time.

I remember a guy in Lasham having 2 digit number in his licence.

mtoroshanga
15th Nov 2011, 06:57
Mine was five.

leswerve
16th Nov 2011, 05:41
[QUOTE]Here in the USA we are titled as "technitions". I would much prefer the title of Engineer, once you looze it it will be gone forever. We are actually classified as unskilled labour thanks to airlines before my time such as Eastern. Aircraft maintenance to them is what a car is to us, a liability not an asset. This cultural ideal is distructive and dangerous, they don't seem to understand the concept of you get what you pay for! The bean counters have no scale for quality = reliability, or are pressured not to venture into this issue as it would reveal a costly answer.



:ok: agree

I working on the line for a US carrier here in Europe .

When asked by an FA if I'm a Mechanic(k). I say No. They fix cars and earn more money than I do. I'm an AMT. They go off confused, sometimes it's just too easy :p

For that sin I sometimes also have the pleasure of working legacy United. A very very different airline. Specially SFO 747 crews. There I'm treated as aircraft housekeeping. The seem to expect me to blow noses and wipe:mad:. Retireing soon :E

Genghis the Engineer
16th Nov 2011, 06:44
You remind me of an argument I had with a young scientist who was being difficult over wearing a nomex flying suit on board a research aircraft. His argument against it? - "It makes me look like an engineer."

Clearly his appreciation that (a) the boss is an engineer and quite proud of the fact, and (b) the boss has spent a lot of his life in a nomex flying suit, was weak!

G

gobbledock
16th Nov 2011, 22:53
Agreed with completely. Throw money not kudos.
I've been a mechanic for over 30 years, motorbikes, cars, trucks, light aircraft and medium helicopters. Its all nuts and bolts only arranged differently. Wow, so there you have it, blackheads theory of mechanics - It's only nuts and bolts arranged differently! Only took 30 years to work that out? I think somebody has been smoking too much herbal medicine in a PNG jungle, but then again maybe the nut and bolt theory is a conspiracy?

blackhand
16th Nov 2011, 23:09
@gobble a duck
maybe the nut and bolt theory is a conspiracy?
WOW, please elucidate on this most excellent expose of a new theory of relativity.
As in all mechanics is relative.

Cheers