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Mike-Bracknell
8th Nov 2011, 12:16
BBC reporting something's occurred at Scampton. No more info yet.

airborne_artist
8th Nov 2011, 12:18
An investigation is said to be taking place. BBCi link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15640104)

"The Ministry of Defence has confirmed there has been an incident involving a Red Arrows jet at RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire.

The details of what has happened are not yet known, but the MoD said it was investigating."

ATCNetwork
8th Nov 2011, 12:33
from BBC:

Red Arrows 'incident' at RAF Scampton investigated The Ministry of Defence has confirmed there has been an incident involving a Red Arrows jet at RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire.

The details of what has happened are not yet known, but the MoD said it was investigating.

It comes a few months after Red Arrows pilot Jon Egging died when his plane crashed during a display near Bournemouth Airport.

The RAF aerobatic team are based at Scampton.

Trinity 09L
8th Nov 2011, 12:49
BBC quote: serious incident on the ground, pilot to hospital

cazatou
8th Nov 2011, 12:50
BBC reporting that a Pilot has been taken to Hospital - no further details.

Civil Police in attendance.

BOAC
8th Nov 2011, 13:01
From Sky News
"Unconfirmed reports state there could have been a problem with an ejector seat."

Airbus Unplugged
8th Nov 2011, 13:04
Gotta be something pyrotechnic ? MDC ?

Jamie-Southend
8th Nov 2011, 13:20
already being discussed

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/468527-red-arrows-incident-scampton.html

cazatou
8th Nov 2011, 13:36
BBC now reporting the Pilot has been "Seriously Injured".

wokkamate
8th Nov 2011, 13:41
3 threads on it now! Apologies from me for starting another one without checking.

I hope to god that it is not another fatality. Classic irresponsible reporting by 'This Is Lincolnshire' though.

andyy
8th Nov 2011, 13:53
"This is Lincolnshire" has changed its reporting to "injured" now but still no other details.

500N
8th Nov 2011, 14:33
Not good. A couple of photos and a bit of information here.

Red Arrows pilot rushed to hospital with life-threatening injuries after 'ejector seat accident' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2059004/Red-Arrows-pilot-rushed-hospital-life-threatening-injuries-ejector-seat-accident.html?ITO=1490)

.

Arkroyal
8th Nov 2011, 14:46
Just shown on bbc news chanel, looks like jet parked with seat tube sticking up from cockpit.

couldn't see if canopy open or closed.

Let's hope this turns out well.

just re shown picture. front cockpit seat has fired. canopy closed, perspex looks shattered by MDC.

Hippy
8th Nov 2011, 14:47
Pictures on BBC news of front bang seat having been banged on the line. Canopy closed.
BBC News - Red Arrows pilot seriously injured at RAF Scampton (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15640104)

SLLC
8th Nov 2011, 15:25
Thoughts are with absolutely everyone at Scampton whatever the facts are.

Jamie-Southend
8th Nov 2011, 15:31
Dreadful year for the Reds, thoughts are with those at Scampton.

green granite
8th Nov 2011, 15:35
Hmmmmm there seems to be something about Hawks and ejector seats lately.
Hope the pilot's not too badly hurt.

Incidentally why are the civil police involved? They seem to want to poke their snouts into everything nowadays.

Trim Stab
8th Nov 2011, 15:36
Civil Police in attendance.


Is that normal at such an early stage of the incident? Or just journos mis-identifying a modplod car?

"This is Lincolnshire" now saying the parachute failed to deploy.
Pilot seriously injured in Red Arrows incident at RAF Scampton | This is Lincolnshire (http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/Red-Arrows-pilot-injured-incident-RAF-Scampton/story-13788887-detail/story.html)

LateArmLive
8th Nov 2011, 15:38
For goodness sake - please stick to confirmed facts. This is bad enough for all invovled without speculation.

Jonty
8th Nov 2011, 15:57
Looking at the BBC pictures it look like the canopy is closed and the rocket tube is poking through.

Hope the Pilot is ok.

RotaryWingLass
8th Nov 2011, 15:59
"For goodness sake - please stick to confirmed facts. This is bad enough for all invovled without speculation."

Completely agree..

XV490
8th Nov 2011, 16:08
Well i can not beleive it how very sad to be healing after one loss and 3 months later here we are again .

After doing some looking about ive found this i just hope its not true http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif .

OK, i will put this up but this is what ive been told from a friend at scampton but it is NOT confirmed

while taxing a seat went off but the MDC did not blow the canopy, pilot was rushed via air ambulance to Lincoln but later pronounced dead. this is what the personel at scampton have been told

Wholly insensitive as well as illiterate.

Erksome Erk
8th Nov 2011, 16:15
Civil Police in attendance.

They are/were

Lincolnshire Police - 08/11/2011 - Incident at R.A.F. Scampton (http://www.lincs.police.uk/News-Centre/News-Releases/08-11-2011-Incident-at-R-A-F-Scampton.html)

Swerve550
8th Nov 2011, 16:16
Aside from Vulcan's wild speculations (note, never speculate on whether or not someone is alive or dead, what if someone here knows this person?) why were the civillian police called? Is accident investigation 'on-base' not carried out by the MoD?

Swerve

30mRad
8th Nov 2011, 16:24
The civil police have primacy in all matters. Usually however they cede that to the military police. They usually only retain primacy when there may be criminal issues - not for one minute suggesting that is the case here but the Puma at Catterick and the GR4 flight test from Marham are examples where the investigation revealed possible criminal issues and so civil police maintained primacy.

At this stage it is wrong to speculate and comment with ill informed data - it will ony serve to upset and annoy.

Thoughts and prayers with you, the team, friends who know you and your family.

Maxibon
8th Nov 2011, 16:25
You can't help yourselves, can you? I heard this; this is what a mate said; must be MDC... etc etc.

Shut the heck up and wait for official confirmation. These threads are so unbelievably tedious.

endplay
8th Nov 2011, 16:28
Just been announced by BBC that the pilot has died. RIP Sir

RotaryWingLass
8th Nov 2011, 16:28
BBC just confirmed the pilot has died in hospital. Sad news.

Tonkenna
8th Nov 2011, 16:31
This is terribly sad news... my thoughts are with the family and friends.

RIP

just another jocky
8th Nov 2011, 16:32
Thoughts, as ever, with family and friends.

talkpedlar
8th Nov 2011, 16:36
RIP Sir or m'am. Sincere hopes that friends and the Red family pull through this. Unspeakably sad.

Albert Another
8th Nov 2011, 16:37
My thoughts to all those involved.

soddim
8th Nov 2011, 16:37
BBC News - Red Arrows pilot dies after incident at RAF Scampton (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15640104)

Sad Sad day.

AGS Man
8th Nov 2011, 16:38
Dreadful news. My thoughts to family and all at Scampton. RIP Sir

Gericault
8th Nov 2011, 16:38
A terribly sad day. RIP. Our thoughts are with family, friends and colleagues.

Swerve550
8th Nov 2011, 16:39
This is awful.

jackieofalltrades
8th Nov 2011, 16:41
Ditto to the above condolences. A sad loss. Thoughts are with his family and friends.

R.I.P.

4015
8th Nov 2011, 16:45
Horrible news. My sincere thoughts with the family, including the red family.

Taildragger
8th Nov 2011, 16:46
Have just seen a senior officer (Group Captain) formally announcing this dreadful event. The ramifications for the Team will be tremendous in many many ways No names given as the family have requested a period of grace to try and come to termas with this awful news. The team's professionalism will now be sorely tested, but I have no doubt that they will deal with it in their own way. One question, I see that the team website shows Kirsty Stewart as the Team Manager. Is this Kirsty Moore.?

Tashengurt
8th Nov 2011, 16:47
Condolences to all involved.

Wander00
8th Nov 2011, 16:51
My sincere condolences to the pilot's family, to the tream and the whole RAFAT "family"

Former Trustee, Red Arrows Trust

Fox Four
8th Nov 2011, 16:52
How absolutely bloody awful. My sincere condolences to all at this very sad time.

Craven Moorhed
8th Nov 2011, 16:54
RIP Buddy.

Thoughts go out to his family & the rest of RAFAT.

'Eclat'

Pete268
8th Nov 2011, 16:56
A very sad day indeed.

The Ministry of Defence now confirm the pilot has sadly died

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Defence Policy and Business | Pilot killed in ground incident at RAF Scampton (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/PilotKilledInGroundIncidentAtRafScampton.htm)

RIP

Geehovah
8th Nov 2011, 16:58
Another very sad day. RIP Chap!

nautique
8th Nov 2011, 16:59
Our thoughts and prayers to all the family and friends, to the Team and their families and friends in this tragic accident.

airpolice
8th Nov 2011, 17:06
From the MOD Website

Pilot killed in ground incident at RAF Scampton

8 Nov 11

It is with regret that the Ministry of Defence must announce that a member of the RAF Aerobatic Team was killed in a ground incident at RAF Scampton earlier today.



Group Captain Simon Blake, the Commandant of the RAF's Central Flying School, has issued the following statement:
"It is with great regret that I can confirm there has been a ground incident involving one of the RAF Aerobatic Team's Hawk aircraft at RAF Scampton that has resulted in the death of the pilot. The pilot was ejected from the aircraft whilst the aircraft was on the ground.

"The Military Aviation Authority is in the process of initiating a full and independent Service Inquiry to determine the cause of this tragic incident. That investigation will determine the facts. It would be most inappropriate to speculate on the cause of the incident.

"The pilot's next of kin have been informed and they have asked for a period of grace before his name is released. Our thoughts and prayers are with the pilot's family, friends and colleagues at this difficult time.
"At this stage, it is important that we allow the family some time to come to terms with this dreadful and terrible news."

Spit161
8th Nov 2011, 17:11
RIP.
My thoughts are with the family at this sad time.

cheers,
Jake.

c53204
8th Nov 2011, 17:13
Very, very sad for the Family involved and the team.

To the poster who asked why the Police are involved.... 2 fatalities in a few months..... why would't they be?

Cows getting bigger
8th Nov 2011, 17:15
A testing time for any squadron.

DX Wombat
8th Nov 2011, 17:20
There is a rumour (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/mod--red-arrows-incident.html) that his parachute failed to open.
The link posts to what appears to be the correct page but appears o have had the following text removed: MoD said that the pilot had died from multiple injuries sustained during the accident in which he was ejected from the cockpit while the jet was still on the ground.(This part included by myself to indicate the location of the missing text)

According to one local report, the pilot's parachute failed to deploy after being ejected from the seat.

peppermint_jam
8th Nov 2011, 17:25
Tragic loss. Thoughts are with the family and the team.

seafuryfan
8th Nov 2011, 17:40
God saw the aviator, the finest there can be.
He put His arms around him and whispered "come to me."
With tearful eyes we realised, that you had passed away.
Although we loved you dearly, we could not make you stay.
A golden heart stopped beating, hardworking hands at rest.
God broke our hearts to prove to us, He only takes the best.

cazatou
8th Nov 2011, 17:51
Sincere Condolences

high spirits
8th Nov 2011, 17:55
Gutted. For the family and the Team. Another truly sad loss of a talented pilot. RIP.

500N
8th Nov 2011, 18:01
Very sorry to hear. Thoughts with family, friends and squadron.
.

brokenlink
8th Nov 2011, 18:05
RIP Sir, awful news.

757_Driver
8th Nov 2011, 18:09
In the sometimes profound words of blackadder:

Made a note in my diary on the way here. Simply says: "Bugger"

30mRad
8th Nov 2011, 18:18
Utterly tragic. My deepest, deepest condolences to the family, friends, colleagues and the team.

A German Tornado crew were killed on my first Red Flag and they put this poem up at the mass brief the following day:

One More Roll

We toast our hearty Comrades who have
Fallen from the skies, and were gently
Caught by God’s own hands to be with
Him on high

To dwell away the soaring clouds they’ve
Known so well before, from victory roll
To tail chase at heaven’s door

And as we fly among them there, we’re
Sure to hear their plea, “Take care
My friend, watch your six, and do one
More roll for me”

Seems kind of apt for the passing of a display pilot.

RIP chap - will be toasting you tonight.

30 mRad

cornish-stormrider
8th Nov 2011, 18:22
Aaah Bugger,
RIP and deepest condolences to family, friends, the Arrows and all at Scampton.
This has not been a good year for RAFAT.

Fly safe, and in the Bar - hoist a long cold one.

1.3VStall
8th Nov 2011, 18:22
My heartfelt sympathy and, if it is a shred of comfort, the family will know that he died doing what he loved. My Dad died in an RAF flying accident and I always think that was the way he would have wanted to go.

JMP6
8th Nov 2011, 18:24
Rest In Peace.

Rumtum
8th Nov 2011, 18:27
Unbelieveable! God's support to family and friends

seven4mankind
8th Nov 2011, 18:31
My thoughts, condolences, love and prayers are with the family tonight.

God's speed

tramps
8th Nov 2011, 18:34
Utterly dreadful news, my sincere condolences to his family and friends.
RIP

Halton Brat
8th Nov 2011, 18:34
These are dark days. Sincere condolences from a Gnat/Hawk old boy.

HB

I'm Off!
8th Nov 2011, 18:36
:-(

My thoughts are with their family and friends. RIP...

its the bish
8th Nov 2011, 18:56
Such another sad day, my sister in Bournemouth has sadly had to put the red ribons and flowers on her garden fence again, all too soon, i am raising a glass with tears in my eyes for the second time in three months, you never knew me or the millions of others you brought so much pleasure to, may you rest in peace, my thoughts are with your kin and fellow airmen.

tilleydog1
8th Nov 2011, 18:58
RIP Sir, sincere condolences to family and all the RAFAT

SirToppamHat
8th Nov 2011, 18:58
How terribly terribly sad. Sincere condolences to all involved. RIP Mate.

STH

SOSL
8th Nov 2011, 19:01
Awful news! Condolences to family, friends and the whole RAFAT team. May they fly again!

Canardly
8th Nov 2011, 19:02
Sad & shocking news. Condolences to all, family & the Team. RIP, sir.

Corporal Clott
8th Nov 2011, 19:28
This is dreadful news and from the picture I just can't fathom how it happened. The canopy is shut, the aircraft is parked up and it looks like the aircraft was not on fire (not that anyone would punch out for a fire anyway).

I just wish that they would release the name so I could stop worrying about the couple of mates I know on the Team; or start offering help and support to their other halves.

CPL Clott :sad:

airpolice
8th Nov 2011, 19:30
Cpl Clott, consider then, the possibilty that the aircrat has been towed back to the line from the point where the seat went off.

Corporal Clott
8th Nov 2011, 19:42
Airpolice

That would be a dreadful scenario if a mate banged out, didn't make it and then the aircraft landed unscathed or rolled to halt without damage...

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/56588000/jpg/_56588007_hi013301376_redarrows_pa.jpg

Still doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, RIP and I'll raise a beer in your honour - ECLAT

CPL Clott

lightbluefootprint
8th Nov 2011, 19:43
Before we set upon Cpl Clott, I for one would consider it unlikely that the a/c would be moved from the site of the incident unless it posed a risk to flight safety. If it was to be moved, I would have thought it would have been out of sight of media cameras.

Rest in Peace Sir, and my condolences to your family, friends and your colleagues both at Scampton and the wider RAF family.

Trim Stab
8th Nov 2011, 19:55
LBF - my thoughts too - and note the clowns hats and red tape securing the area around the aircraft, suggesting the incident took place at the stand, either before or after a sortie (difficult to tell - look at flap positions).

Very odd and horrible tragedy, whatever the cause.

Navaleye
8th Nov 2011, 20:05
My thoughts are with his family and the team. A terrible year for the Reds. Let's hope they get to the bottom this very quickly.

manccowboy
8th Nov 2011, 20:17
I just wish that they would release the name so I could stop worrying about the couple of mates I know on the Team; or start offering help and support to their other halves.

CPL Clott http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gifAlready named in the Daily Mail, I'm not going to post the name on here for obvious reasons :(

Condolences to his family and the Reds

Red Arrows pilot rushed to hospital with life-threatening injuries after 'ejector seat accident' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2059004/Red-Arrows-pilot-rushed-hospital-life-threatening-injuries-ejector-seat-accident.html)

RAFEngO74to09
8th Nov 2011, 20:26
RIP. My condolences to family, friends and all at RAF Scampton.

fincastle84
8th Nov 2011, 20:29
My thoughts & prayers are with family & friends at this very sad time. I always wear my poppy with pride, even more so on this very sad occasion.

RIP young aviator.

Grabbers
8th Nov 2011, 20:29
So which part of '...family have requested a period of grace...' did the D***y M**l find difficult to comprehend?


RiP, Sir.

H Peacock
8th Nov 2011, 20:38
Landed late this afternoon to hear the tragic news.

RIP Buddy, will never forget your natural 'warmth' and that almost constant and very infectious smile.

To the Boys & Girls at Scampton: - The show must go on!

Jazz Hands
8th Nov 2011, 20:41
This is dreadful news and from the picture I just can't fathom how it happened.


With all due respect, I take it that no-one's considering anything but an accident? :(

neilmac
8th Nov 2011, 20:46
Terrible news, thoughts and prayers to family and friends, RIP.
The D***y M**l didnt even have the decency to respect the families wishes. Dont suppose they will apologise, maybe Stations and Messes should reviewing purchasing the paper.

NM

racedo
8th Nov 2011, 21:03
RIP

Given the photos and details the Mail has I am wondering whether the details were released direct to them to publish.

Mail not worth wrapping Fish and Chips in.

EGLF_base
8th Nov 2011, 21:07
if you want to make your feelings known:

Press Complaints Commission >> Making a Complaint >> How to make a complaint (http://www.pcc.org.uk/complaints/makingacomplaint.html)

i know what im off to do now....

RIP.

Piggies
8th Nov 2011, 21:17
Awful news. May the pilot Rest In Peace.

Daily Mail? Astonishing. Disgraceful.

Trim Stab
8th Nov 2011, 21:20
The D***y M**l didnt even have the decency to respect the families wishes. Dont suppose they will apologise, maybe Stations and Messes should reviewing purchasing the paper.



How do you know they have not respected the family's wishes?

The report indicates that the pilot has been named officially. The Mail would not publish the name (and photo) without being absolutely sure that they could not be sued for falsehood.

If you want to blame somebody, blame whoever it was in the RAF (or wherever) who gave them the name.

500N
8th Nov 2011, 21:23
"Given the photos and details the Mail has I am wondering whether the details were released direct to them to publish."

Steve Hill is a photographer in Lincoln so would probably have been on the spot and sold the photos to the DM.


Very disappointed if the DM published details before they were asked to but not unexpected of the media nowadays.

DX Wombat
8th Nov 2011, 21:39
It sounds as if it was an unofficial source as I have just been watching the BBC News where the gentleman's name has not been disclosed and I'm sure we would have been told.
I've just got politely cross with a poster in the Spectators Forum who claims to be a great fan of the Red Arrows but who has published the link to his name. :mad:

plinkplinkfizz
8th Nov 2011, 21:44
With deepest condolences to the family and friends of an exemplary pilot and officer. Heartfelt sympathies to the wider RAFAT Family. The wings of another fine aviator will remain forever folded. RIP.

igs942
8th Nov 2011, 21:47
Just my opinion but the DM having received permission seems a bit iffy to me. They misquoted Group Captain Simon Blake, missing out the part about the grace period.

Why would they do that if they had permission from the family?

Tankertrashnav
8th Nov 2011, 21:49
First of all my sincere condolences to the family and colleagues of the deceased. The Reds must be totally shellshocked after this year's tragic events.

Secondly, and I am not sure if this is the right thread to ask, but here goes. I have absolutely no wish to speculate on the cause of this accident but I have a general question. When I flew in aircraft fitted with ejector seats (the Jet Provost) these were of the old type - quite literally bang seats, and a zero - zero ejection would in all normal circumstance be unsurvivable. Are current aircraft (FJs that is) all fitted with rocket seats which provide a good chance of survival to anyone ejecting from a stationary aircraft on the ground? This may seem a silly question to current aircrew, but I have been out of the game for 35 years now and I genuinely dont know.

TheWizard
8th Nov 2011, 22:02
That's a 'bedroom website' with a poor translation of the DM article, not an official source.

Capt Kremin
8th Nov 2011, 22:02
With all the safety procedures designed to prevent this sort of thing happening.... one really wonders how it is possible. Particularly considering that it is a zero/zero seat. Perhaps he wasn't strapped in yet?

Very sad....

vintage ATCO
8th Nov 2011, 22:08
That's a 'bedroom website' with a poor translation of the DM article, not an official source.

It's his own forum . . . check out 'Contact Us' :rolleyes:


Sincere condolences to family, friends and all of you.

500N
8th Nov 2011, 22:10
Am I seeing things or have the DM now removed the bits they were not supposed to publish ? I was sure I saw a photo and name in the DM (and not the Tel, Sun or the BBC. Happy to be corrected if I am wrong).

Red Arrows pilot rushed to hospital with life-threatening injuries after 'ejector seat accident' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2059004/Red-Arrows-pilot-rushed-hospital-life-threatening-injuries-ejector-seat-accident.html)

Wander00
8th Nov 2011, 22:13
500N. You are not wrong. Maybe a DM editor is getting his/her wrist slapped as we write. Not holding my breath, but a day (or an hour) late and a dollar short.

TheWizard
8th Nov 2011, 22:14
Bit late now though isn't it. Well done Daily Fail.:hmm:

manccowboy
8th Nov 2011, 22:16
From the DM
'The pilot's next of kin have been informed. Our thoughts and prayers are with the pilot's family and friends at this difficult time.' The pilot will be named tomorrow.

Bit late as they already published the pilots name earlier.....muppets :=

ditchvisitor
8th Nov 2011, 22:16
Have you seen the cr@p he has written on that website, "it looks like pilot error" alright d******d how about you show him and his family some respect and not post stuff based on rumours and your supposed 'knowledge'

LFFC
8th Nov 2011, 22:22
500N. You are not wrong. Maybe a DM editor is getting his/her wrist slapped as we write.

I suspect, and hope, that it will be much more than a wrist slapping!

..........

Such a terrible, tragic loss - my heart goes out to family and friends.

fly_surfbeach
8th Nov 2011, 22:30
Very sad, RIP.

airpolice
8th Nov 2011, 22:35
The "offending" Daily Mail webpage from 22:30 lists the story as being by Ian Drury & Andy Dolan, but the revised page from 22:53 is by a Mail Reporter.

Suddenly the Daily Mail are shy about everyone's name.

AllTrimDoubt
8th Nov 2011, 22:50
Daily Mail

if you want to make your feelings known:

Press Complaints Commission >> Making a Complaint >> How to make a complaint (http://www.pcc.org.uk/complaints/makingacomplaint.html)

i know what im off to do now....

RIP.


Complaint made.

Mrmungus
8th Nov 2011, 22:55
Tankertrashnav

Pm sent to you

MM

Moi/
8th Nov 2011, 22:56
A lot of press will be reading up on Pprune, E-Goat and other RAF military forums.

You don't want to be the person that breaks the seal, and ends up at the end of a unpleasant one-way chat.

airpolice
8th Nov 2011, 23:09
The Daily Mail are still showing the name of the Pilot in the comments section of the page.

TheGorrilla
8th Nov 2011, 23:28
Yes, but the Daily Mail aren't exactly known for technical accuracy...

Ali Barber
8th Nov 2011, 23:44
I can't believe half the drivel on the Daily Mail comments page. RIP, a sad day!

Pure Pursuit
8th Nov 2011, 23:56
Complaint made. Utter t@ssers.

RIP sir, my thoughts are with your family, friends and RAFAT.

Terry K Rumble
9th Nov 2011, 00:00
Just terribly sad news and another dreadful loss to the RAF and the aviation world - RIP Sir.
Jane and I send our love and prayers to everyone involved and associated with RAFAT. You are all very much in our thoughts and prayers at this, the saddest of times.

TKR

NutLoose
9th Nov 2011, 01:22
They're now naming him and showing his picture :ugh::ugh::ugh:


RIP Sir.

500N
9th Nov 2011, 01:30
Yes, just noticed that.

The DM really are muppets. Look what is in the first sentence ...... "at the stunt team’s base".

:ugh:

Maybe it's time the MOD enforce embargo's on the details.
.

monkeymanagement
9th Nov 2011, 01:46
Another magnificent man and his red flying machine..... My thoughts remain with the family, friends and the Reds. A damn shame.

SOSL
9th Nov 2011, 01:57
Extract from the "Editors Code of Practice" as published by the PCC:

*Privacy

i) Everyone is entitled to respect for his or her private and family life, home, health and correspondence, including digital communications.

ii) Editors will be expected to justify intrusions into any individual's private life without consent......

Evanelpus
9th Nov 2011, 05:13
Sincere condolences to the Reds and the Blues and the pilots family and friends.

Daily Mail, shame on you!

L J R
9th Nov 2011, 05:48
RIP Mate, thoughts are with your Family, Friends and The Team.

c130jbloke
9th Nov 2011, 06:18
RIP Sir.

Before you all turn your ire on the Daily Mail, consider that another fatal accident involving the Reds was always going to attract intense media interest. The DM's business is selling papers, and no doubt some of those who are tub thumping right now have before praised the same paper for pro RAF government bashing. Also, if the DM had not got the scoop, it would have been another paper anyway.
This is especially so when the possibility remained that it may have been Flt Lt Stewart involved (dead female red = way bigger story) and that it was so soon after Bournemouth (2 stories for the price of one).

Don't get me wrong, I am as disappointed as the next man that his family had so short a period of grace before the inevitable media storm. However, the Reds are not a normal unit, their role is PR so it is inevitable that when a bad news story comes along then are going to be under the spotlight.

My question(s) about the management of information would be aimed at the Red's media ops / PR support / chain of command as (IMHO) it appears they are behind the story and possibly not equipped / trained to manage bad news. And whatever muppet has control of the Red's official website needs a foot in their backside too - nearly 24 hours post event and it's unchanged.

I think what I have written is distasteful, but it's a fact of 21st century life.

A2QFI
9th Nov 2011, 06:43
The quality of the reporting, and the terminology, are lamentable. Try this "A Top-Gun crewman has died in an incident involving a grounded jet". Bilge!

Pontius Navigator
9th Nov 2011, 06:43
c130J, I would be cautious in blaming media ops, CoC etc. The Reds are known. It would be easy to check out all their homes, ring phones, shotgun calls to 'relatives'. These papers are well known for gutter searching.

Once, by association of name, we received a call from the Sun as there was something going on with a birth and rescue in the Orkneys. They were ringing everyone with our name in the north of Scotland.

Runaway Gun
9th Nov 2011, 06:46
Bit harsh to blame the RAF PR team as if they are necessarily guilty. I'd take a punt that they are a little more savvy to the release of such information. The Daily Fail could have easily picked up such knowledge via their network of 'experts'. Maybe some photographer simply took shots of each pilot who left the jets and assumed the one missing was the one named. Who knows? I heard TWO names. Regardless if it's a girl or not (and I wish THAT was never raised - unfair on KM), the news is very sad indeed.

teeteringhead
9th Nov 2011, 06:53
Flt Lt Stewart involved (dead female red = way bigger story) ?? ....true - but if you read the Gp Capt's statement, he clearly said his name etc etc

Autorev
9th Nov 2011, 06:54
RIP- another terrible day for the Reds. My thoughts are with the family and friends as well as all of those connected to this accident.

Ref the Daily Mail action; whilst it is undoubtedly unforgivable to not respect the family's wishes, how many Ppruners went straight to DM online to establish who was the victim of this accident?
Lambast away, but I can't help feeling the thirst for instant info in the media drives such behaviour.

Thoughts and prayers....

500N
9th Nov 2011, 06:55
c130jbloke

When I was reading the first part of your post, I was thinking of exactly what you wrote in the second part.

It is up to the RAF (PR, Reds PR or whoever) to control and provide information and if they don't realise it, they need to and get ahead of the game, even to the extent of providing photos to the media so they become the source. It may be a bit distasteful but it would cut down on a fair bit of speculation. As you say, that is the reality of today's world.

.

c130jbloke
9th Nov 2011, 07:01
It was not my intention to overtly criticise their media ops, but the further up the command structure you go then perhaps the more critical questions should be raised.

As PN rightly pointed out, the media will go to just about any lengths to get the scoop, especially when you consider how time sensitive a high profile story can be ( it was 43 seconds from when BA 038 landed short at LHR to it being on the web !).

Life as a Red can be difficult. Life for somebody attached to a Red must be really difficult and the service has an obligation to ensure the whole of the Reds (and their families) get as much protection as possible when things go wrong. I agree that's it's unfair to name a particular pilot, but she has a unique position and the Reds are public property.

They are down, and I am defiantly not kicking. If it came across that way I apologise. And somebody needs to get a grip of their website.

Madbob
9th Nov 2011, 07:49
My condolences go out to the family and friends of the deceased, and also to the rest of the Sqn. But, sadly, tragic accidents like this can and do happen.

Anyone who has flown an ac sitting on any ejection seat, or the armourers/safety equipment personnel who work on them, know how to treat them with respect. Whilst being a potential life-safer they can also be lethal and a seat should only be armed pre take off and then made safe again after landing.

Inadvertant ejections have happened before, both on the line or in the hangar. A zero, zero seat should have worked in this senario (stationary ac, level attitude) but only if the pilot is properly strapped-in and connected with leg restraints, PEC etc. This was the case of a Canadian student pilot who ejected from a Harvard II a couple of years ago. He lived.

It was sadly not the case when a Harrier pilot died in similar circumstances following a display in the 1980's which was well documented at the time and written up in Air Clues. Whatever the cause in this case it is a complete tragedy but only the BoI (sorry SI now) will be able to determine what actually went wrong.



MB

Nige321
9th Nov 2011, 07:57
DM are at it again...:uhoh:

Tankertrashnav
9th Nov 2011, 08:07
Mrmungus - thanks for the info in your PM - just what I was looking for.

AngryDave
9th Nov 2011, 08:20
Have complained. Section 5 - Intrusion into Grief or Shock.

Regardless of who leaked it and RAFAT PR etc, it is still the decision of the DM to publish and to do that when the family has requested a period of grace is shocking.

And just because it has already happened doesn't mean we can't complain. It's very easy to do and might make them think twice about it happening again. We can but dream...

Mrmungus
9th Nov 2011, 08:22
Mrmungus - thanks for the info in your PM - just what I was looking for.

Your welcome

sled dog
9th Nov 2011, 09:13
Is the Wail the only british paper to have published the details ?

500N
9th Nov 2011, 09:49
"Is the Wail the only british paper to have published the details ?"

I haven't seen the name in the Telegraph or the Sun, although I notice that the Sun has added a few other details recently (Rank, length of RAF Service etc) but excluded the name.

Not sure about any other newspapers.

.

Nige321
9th Nov 2011, 09:50
BBC reporting - RAF to temporarily halt flying aircraft fitted with ejector seats like one in which Red Arrows pilot died

vulcanxl426
9th Nov 2011, 11:25
Sadly SKY News have published the name of the pilot who sadly died yesterday .

Under there breaking news banner ,

RED ARROWS pilot killed in an accident at RAF SCAMPTON yesterday named as RAF FLT SEAN CUNNINGHAM RED 5 .

Also in the prime ministers question time the local mp to scampton asked the pm for a guarentee to keep RAF SCAMPTON open for the RED ARROWS his answer was we will see what we can do behind private doors .

stickstirrer
9th Nov 2011, 11:33
Tornado, Hawk and Tucano grounded this morning. Sadly points to equipment problem, at least pilot error now seems more remote.
Condolences and sympathy to Sean's family, colleagues and the team; I knew him and flew with him; he was a lovely man and an excellent example of a Royal Air Force Officer and pilot, RIP.

NutLoose
9th Nov 2011, 11:46
Sad sad day, condolences to his family, friends and Colleagues..

RIP mate.

green granite
9th Nov 2011, 12:04
My condolences also go out to the family and friends, very sad.

I think we also need to spare a thought for the poor armourer who was responsible for the seat, it must be terrible for the guy wondering if it might have been something he did or didn't do or even just missed that caused the tragedy.

cats_five
9th Nov 2011, 12:11
Tornado, Hawk and Tucano grounded this morning. Sadly points to equipment problem, at least pilot error now seems more remote.
....

Maybe, or maybe it points to the RAF being cautious.

Jackonicko
9th Nov 2011, 12:53
MOD confirms the death of Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham

9 November 2011

It is with sadness that the MOD must confirm that Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham, of the Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team, the Red Arrows, was killed when he was ejected from his Hawk T1 aircraft on the morning of Tuesday 8 November 2011.

A full Service Inquiry will investigate the circumstances surrounding the incident.

Red 5 - Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham, aged 35, was born and raised in Johannesburg, South Africa, and moved to the UK in 1986 at the age of nine. Although a profession in football was a possibility, he followed his dream to become a fast jet pilot in the Royal Air Force. Flt Lt Cunningham attended Ernesford Grange School in Coventry, during which time he qualified for his Private Pilot Licence at the age of 17. He went on to read Electrical and Electronic Engineering at Nottingham Trent University, and completed his Elementary Flying Training as a member of East Midlands Universities Air Squadron.

Joining the Royal Air Force in 2000, Flt Lt Cunningham was selected for Fast Jet Training. On completion of his flying training, he was posted to the Tornado GR4 aircraft serving on 617 'The Dambusters' Squadron at Royal Air Force Lossiemouth. During his three years on the Squadron, Flt Lt Cunningham completed several operational tours of Iraq as part of Operation TELIC, flying close air support missions for coalition ground forces.

After completing exercises in America, Canada, Romania and France, Flt Lt Cunningham joined XV (R) Squadron as a Qualified Pilot and Tactics Instructor. He continued his instructional role when posted to the Weapon Systems Officer (WSO) Training Unit at 100 Squadron, RAF Leeming, before being selected to fly for the RAF Aerobatic Team, the Red Arrows, in 2010.

Flt Lt Cunningham's family - father Jim, mother Monika and sister Nicolette - said:

"Sean was first and foremost a much-loved son and brother who will be dearly missed by all of his family, and his many good friends.

"Since his childhood Sean had dreamed of flying fast jets in the Royal Air Force; through his hard work and dedication he achieved that dream, and the pinnacle of his career was to fly in the Red Arrows. Sean loved his flying and we hope that his life will be an inspiration to all those who share his dreams.

"His fun-loving nature has never failed to put a smile on the faces of those who knew and loved him; this is how he will be remembered.

"We ask that the media please allow us the time and space required to come to terms with what has happened."

Secretary of State for Defence Philip Hammond said:

"It was with great sadness that I heard of the death of Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham. He was clearly a gifted pilot who served his country with honour and distinction throughout his career in the Royal Air Force.

"As a Red Arrow, Flight Lieutenant Cunningham was regarded as among the most talented aviators in the world. Our thoughts and prayers are with his family and friends at this terrible time."

Air Officer Commanding Number 22 (Training) Group, Air Vice-Marshal Mike Lloyd, said:

"The Red Arrows personify the teamwork, professionalism and excellence that is commonplace throughout the Royal Air Force and Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham demonstrated each of these values on a daily basis. His contribution to the Service as an aviator in the Tornado GR4 Force, as a Red Arrows pilot and as an officer, has been outstanding. Sean will be missed by all and our thoughts and prayers are with his family and friends."

Group Captain Simon Blake, the Commandant of the RAF's Central Flying School, said:

"Flight Lieutenant Sean Cunningham joined the team in October 2010 and flew for his first year as Red 3. This year, Sean had commenced training as Red 5 and was the senior member of the 'front 5', affectionately known as 'Enid', and thus had the unofficial mantle of 'Uncle Enid' - a key position in mentoring and helping to train the new pilots to the team.

"His constant smile, energy, and joie de vivre was infectious, and he will be sorely missed by his fellow pilots, the entire Red Arrows team, and his many colleagues and friends in the wider Royal Air Force. Our heartfelt sorrow and sympathy go out to his family and all those whose lives he touched."

ACSfirstfail
9th Nov 2011, 14:22
Just found out today....gutted!! RIP matey...I'll raise a glass tonight.

NutLoose
9th Nov 2011, 15:17
Ladies and Gentlemen, just to let you know, there has been a book of condolences set up,


Please see


RAF Red Arrows - Flt Lt Sean Cunningham Message of Condolence (http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/teamnews/fltltseancunningham.cfm)






.

essexlad
9th Nov 2011, 15:53
Indeed a very very sad day for the reds and the RAF as a whole. My thoughts and condolences go out to all family, friends and collegues of him. I hope the armorers and squippers are doing ok too. Cant think of a feeling worse than finding out the kit you work on has been used and failed to work properly.

Rest in peace

Jayand
9th Nov 2011, 17:55
Condolences to everyone involved, I think people need to be a little bit careful about what they are saying though as comments about technical faults and equipment not working properly might well be completely wrong.
The reason the fleets have been grounded is precautionary and makes complete common sense in case something is obviously wrong with all seats/aircraft.

StopStart
9th Nov 2011, 18:16
RIP fella. :(

Complaint sent to Daily Mail & PCC regarding their premature release of Flt Lt Cunningham's details yesterday. Reptiles.

AGS Man
9th Nov 2011, 20:55
RIP Red 5 again. As I recall Jon Egging flew Red 5. As to the gutter press this mornings Sun said he was a 35 years old Flt Lt. Pretty easy to come up with the name after that clue!

Cornerstone958
9th Nov 2011, 21:16
AGS Man
Not true Flt lt Egging was Red 4.
RIP Red 5:bored:
CS

Ogre
10th Nov 2011, 01:01
While I offer my sympathies and condolances to the family of the pilot, I would like to echoes the thoughts of essexlad.

Having witnessed an armourer colleague almost catatonic with grief after an incident where an ejection seat he had fitted had failed to fire, the first thought of anyone who has touched an aircraft or its role equipment after any incident involving serious injury or loss of life is often "was it something I did?"

eal401
10th Nov 2011, 07:01
Ref the Daily Mail action; whilst it is undoubtedly unforgivable to not respect the family's wishes, how many Ppruners went straight to DM online to establish who was the victim of this accident?


Just what I was thinking. A lot of very self righteous "I've complained to the Press Complaints Commission" and other such ego-swelling stuff, but the numpties posting all the Daily Mail stuff probably don't realise how many people will have gone to that site entirely on the back of their posts. I didn't go to the Daily Mail website, I dislike the paper and have the morals to stand by that dislike, but I only knew they had posted the name thanks to people on here.

If the Daily Mail have disrespected the family, so has each and every poster "lambasting" the paper but in turn directing information seekers to them. A lot of people need to have a long hard look in the mirror today.

My thoughts to the pilot's family.

Jayand
10th Nov 2011, 08:23
I have seen it myself first hand after a crash and they are twats, but our collective lust for instant 24 hr news and breaking stories is what drives them.
Just because in this instant it is about one our own and not Gaddaffi or some banking crisis then it does not mean they play any differently, you cant have it both ways!

StopStart
10th Nov 2011, 11:33
Just what I was thinking. A lot of very self righteous "I've complained to the Press Complaints... etc etc ad infinitum

Mate, have a word with yourself. I'm not looking to swell my ego or any equally crass dribble nor do I need to "look in the mirror". If you seriously think that a couple of comments on a minor internet forum directed at the website of a major national newspaper somehow has any bearing on the traffic of that site then I'd suggest you need to have another think about how the internet works. Mail Online cracks 75 million unique users a month, the highest traffic of any UK online newspaper. An awful lot of people knew the identity of the deceased a long time before his family would've liked them to.

I stand by my sentiment. I have never complained to the PCC before as I normally don't care about what the press get up to and can generally write them off as sad little bottom feeders. On this occasion however they flagrantly went against the wishes of a grieving family to get their "scoop". I saw these crap excuses for humanity pouring all over the families of the crew of XV179 when that was shot down and am frankly appalled to see it happen again. I do not wish to think that my elderly parents would be subjected to this revolting treatment were I to stick my aircraft into a hillside one day.

You can't write off their behaviour as being a result of "our" desire for 24hr news either - Gadaffi getting caught after 6 month+ multinational combat operation and civil war has relevance and is newsworthy; agencies will fight to be the first to break that. A Red Arrow pilot getting tragically killed is of course newsworthy in itself - his identity is not. You cannot compare the rush to get a picture of an enshackled Gadaffi on to our screens to poking microphones through the letterboxes of grieving parents hours after their loss. Every other press agency managed to maintain a certain level of decency on the matter.

I'm not an internet warrior, I don't have Bus, Outrage, Pprune on my FMT600 and I generally refrain from engaging in internet grieving for people I didn't know. I also don't have a vendetta against the Mail although I do think it is a poor excuse for a newspaper. If however you're happy with the thought that your relatives might be subjected to this sort of treatment one day then crack on with your righteousness and pass by on the other side of the road. Careful though, the air can get pretty thin up there on the moral high ground.

:rolleyes:

This line of discussion detracts from the main issue at hand here and I do not wish to be party to dragging this thread down the usual Pprune latrine of pointless arguments.

lindslow
10th Nov 2011, 12:19
Well put Stopstart! Agreed.

eal401
10th Nov 2011, 16:42
If you seriously think that a couple of comments on a minor internet forum directed at the website of a major national newspaper somehow has any bearing on the traffic of that site then I'd suggest you need to have another think about how the internet works.
Aviation incident occurs. PPRuNe is a well known aviation website believe it or not. I have seen with my own eyes people looking at PPRuNe after an aviation accident has occurred, so perhaps you need to consider the influence PPRuNe actually has.

Or, perhaps we really should get rid of Rumour from this website, it clearly upsets a lot of people. (And while you are at it, Professional and Pilot could do with a rethink!)

OmegaV6
10th Nov 2011, 18:13
From my e-mail in-box ...

Thank you for your complaint to the Press Complaints Commission. We have received a number of complaints in relation to this matter.

Given the nature of the situation, you will understand that we have to bear in mind the wishes of the family of the pilot concerned. In the first instance, we will therefore seek to determine whether the family wishes to complain. We will endeavour to be in touch once we are aware of the position.


self explanatory methinks

Vox Populi
11th Nov 2011, 12:18
From my e-mail in-box ...

Quote:
Thank you for your complaint to the Press Complaints Commission. We have received a number of complaints in relation to this matter.

Given the nature of the situation, you will understand that we have to bear in mind the wishes of the family of the pilot concerned. In the first instance, we will therefore seek to determine whether the family wishes to complain. We will endeavour to be in touch once we are aware of the position.

self explanatory methinks

I don't agree with that logic. While I fully respect the family's wishes, I would hate to see the Mail get off just because the family do not wish to complain. They may quite understandably feel they have more pressing matters to deal with at the moment.

We need to think about the next family who end up having distress piled on distress because of the Mail's disregard for their feelings.

simflea404
11th Nov 2011, 21:37
Having witnessed an armourer colleague almost catatonic with grief after an incident where an ejection seat he had fitted had failed to fire, the first thought of anyone who has touched an aircraft or its role equipment after any incident involving serious injury or loss of life is often "was it something I did?"

At the risk of being ridiculed as a non pilot...but only formerly ground crew (now a designer :))...I would like to say I feel as much for those who are worried about their role in this tragedy...Pity the press put sensationalism before personal wishes...little that can be done about it....:{

simonrennie
13th Nov 2011, 09:02
Earlier replies raise an interesting issue, the loved ones are doing their best to deal with a complete shock and bolt out of the blue and now in grief with no previous thought or training. Everone is very different and their reactions to the situation are totally unpredictable when it actually happens and of course their wishes should be respected if at all possible.

As a new "orphan" having lost my Dad just a few weeks ago at 88 I used e-mail to update those who wanted news updates and other than a very small minority that thought it was too impersonal the over whelming majority where pleased to receive the e-mail's and made comments like really want to hear but don't like to keep phoning and asking and to be perfectly honest I did not want to spend hours making VERY hard phone calls and talking about it. Now we have the CI ditching where my inlaws live, fortunatley (for us) not friends of theirs but we have had people check I was not flying out there to visit. The traggic M5 crash: the large number OMG could xyz be involved? By quickly naming the poor individual quite a large number are saved from worry. Obviously it should be a case by case decision but personally on thoughtful reflection if I was that poor person, name me quickly to save a larger number from worry. The Red Arrows pilots plus the reserves knowing several hundred people each and then their immeadiate families or people concerned because their friend is worried sick. I can see the logic of don't print for a couple of days when families had time to break the sad news to priority people that should know when we still used jungle drums but in the modern high speed world that luxury is in the past?

simonrennie
13th Nov 2011, 09:03
Earlier replies raise an interesting issue, the loved ones are doing their best to deal with a complete shock and bolt out of the blue and now in grief with no previous thought or training. Everone is very different and their reactions to the situation are totally unpredictable when it actually happens and of course their wishes should be respected if at all possible. As a new "orphan" having lost my dad just a few weeks ago at 88 I used e-mail to update those who wanted news updatess and other than a very small minority that thought it was too impersonally the over whelming majority where pleased to receive the e-mail's and made comments like really want to hear but don't like to keep phoning and asking and to be perfectly honest I did not want to spend hours making VERY hard phone calls and talking about it. How we have the CI ditching where my inlaws live, fortunatley not friends of theirs but we have had people check I was now flying out there to visit. The traggic M5 crash the large number OMG could xyz be involved? By quickly naming the poor individual quite a large number are saved from worry. Obviously it should be a case by case decision but personally on thoughtful reflection if I was that poor person, name me quickly to save a larger number from worry. The Red Arrows pilots plus the reserves knowing several hundred people each and then their immeadiate families or people concerned because their friend is worried sick. I can see the logic of don't print for a couple of days when families had time to break the sad news to priority people that should know when we still used jungle drums but in the modern high spped world that luxury is in the past?

BOAC
13th Nov 2011, 09:56
Simon - would you have liked to find out about your Dad from PPRune or the Daily Mail?

The Old Fat One
13th Nov 2011, 11:57
Simon Rennie

I well written thought provoking post...probably deserves a slightly more thoughtful riposte than the one it got.

I suggest to most of us, it would make very little difference as to how we a told a loved one has gone...in some circumstances learning the "wrong" way can be a blessing in disguise.

The essence of this case seems to be the DMs (a newspaper I loathe with a passion) wilful, or ignorant, dismissal of the families feelings. A different kettle of fish I venture, and one that is pretty impossible to defend.

Clockwork Mouse
13th Nov 2011, 12:13
I also despise the DM, though unfortunately I have to buy it for the Boss (Mrs CM). However, my gut feeling is that, in this particular case, it was probably cock-up rather than conspiracy.
The article they published on the web was withdrawn within the hour, only to be reinstated a couple of hours later. It was a fairly factual article with a photo of Sean not readily available to the public. It looked to me to have come from a MoD source.
I suspect that MoD PInfo may have given the details to editors to ensure accuracy, but with the request not to publish until given the OK. Editorial staffs prepared the article, but some twit then pressed the wrong button and it went on line. It was quickly taken down, but the damage having already been done, the DM editors decided they might as well go ahead anyway, so they republished.
This would make them sloppy and unprofessional but not malevolent.

Wander00
13th Nov 2011, 16:39
Whilst I hold no remit for the DM, nor any other newspaper, I cannot help but feel this thread has all got abit off track. Is it possible to separate press bashing (with which I would usually concur) from condolences, commiserations and memories of Red 5. Just a thought.

simonrennie
13th Nov 2011, 17:15
No of course not, that would not be my preference or anyone elses but you miss my point. We don't live in a perfect world and never will but in my own little way I would just prefer the wider worry is kept to a minimum if possible. Disaterous news however it arrives will always be disaterous news, simply a personal choice if I was the centre of the issue. I would add I will never forget the phone ringing in my little self employed office is it a client or that call I don't want or if the carer had come through the door, it would not have made the day any better!

Timelord
13th Nov 2011, 18:54
The appearance of the pilot's name on line could perhaps be down to a minion pressing the wrong button. The presence of Daily Mail reporters at the family's front door in time for it to be reported in the morning edition could not.

500N
13th Nov 2011, 19:05
"The appearance of the pilot's name on line could perhaps be down to a minion pressing the wrong button. The presence of Daily Mail reporters at the family's front door in time for it to be reported in the morning edition could not."

Are you saying that they turned up at the front door of Red 5's home or what has happened in the past in general ? (Asking as I didn't see that reported).

Vox Populi
13th Nov 2011, 19:35
I am as angry about the DM's action in this case as anyone else on the forum, unlike most other 'pruners my background is as a member of the press.

For us, not being the source of a NOK finding out about the death of a loved one was a matter of company policy that had no room for negotiation. I came close a couple of times, but it was always cock-up rather than conspiracy as has been noted.

In this case it reads as if the NOK had been informed but asked for some more time, possibly to contact another relative who was proving difficult to reach. Remember that as Red 5 was married even his parents would not count as NOK but they too deserve to hear this dreadful news through proper, dignified channels.

Contrary to popular belief the biggest danger is not that a relative reads the news on the DM website, or sees it in the paper, it's that a friend who has read it calls to offer condolences only to find out they are inadvertently delivering the bad news, making the relative feel like they are the last to hear of the event that will change their lives for ever.

'People matter and stories don't' was my basic feeling on the issue, which is probably why I was never particularly successful at the job.

Dawdler
13th Nov 2011, 20:01
I am as angry about the DM's action in this case as anyone else on the forum, unlike most other 'pruners my background is as a member of the press.

As a former(?) member of the press you will also be aware of the tactics used by some of your colleagues.

A friend of mine was unfortuante enough to have his daughter murdered during the Hungerford massacre (as it was called at the time). She was one of many victims of the crime. The press would simply not take "NO!" for an answer. Days and weeks after the event, some one would telephone, or call round to his house, trying to get my friend to talk to the press about his daughter, her life, his reactions to the event etc. They simply could not seem to understand that they did not want to talk to the press at all. At the anniversary of two, three six months, they turned up on his doorstep in an attempt to get an interview. This was followed by annual calls up to the point where the fifth anniversary was reached.

The press would simply let him and his wife alone. So the temtptation to steal a march on their competitors drives their willingness to intrude where they are clearly not wanted. As it happened, my friend had absolutely no idea that his daughter was in that town on that day, so if her name had been printed before he knew, I can only guess at the upset it would have caused.

In the case of Red 5 thousands of people know the names of not the individuals concerned with the team, so there might be some justification for early publication of the name of the deceased, but not before the family have been told.

Timelord
13th Nov 2011, 22:21
"The appearance of the pilot's name on line could perhaps be down to a minion pressing the wrong button. The presence of Daily Mail reporters at the family's front door in time for it to be reported in the morning edition could not."

Are you saying that they turned up at the front door of Red 5's home or what has happened in the past in general ? (Asking as I didn't see that reported).

Yes.

The story printed in the next morning's edition of the DM proudly recounted that their reporters had been turned away from the family home by "an MOD Official"

Good for him.

500N
13th Nov 2011, 22:31
No wonder newspaper reporters are rated lower than used car salespeople.

NutLoose
14th Nov 2011, 01:20
The story printed in the next morning's edition of the DM proudly recounted that their reporters had been turned away from the family home by "an MOD Official"


shame they couldn't turn them away with a baseball bat..... Glad someone thought to put someone there to dissuade them.

Tinribs
14th Nov 2011, 09:25
I and many of my service colleagues will never forgive or forget the day the DM published a photograph of my good friend Laurie Davies' body on fire in a gutter in a Cambridge housing area

They had crashed a Canberra at night from Wyton

The Journo was called Geoff Garrat

He justified the photo by saying of interest to the public and then published again in the AP.

Sadly I was never able to leave him somewhere horrid on Christmas eve

Gerontocrat
14th Nov 2011, 13:26
The DM has form on all this.
At the outbreak of GW1, I was (for my sins - and, in retrospect, not proud) the newly appointed Defence Correspondent at the DM. When the first Tornados were shot down, the DM went into overdrive vis-a-vis the crews and their backgrounds, including doorstepping the relatives. Please bear in mind that this was the product of instructions from the News Editor and nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the specialist correspondent.

Once the paper started publishing details of family, etc, I marched into the Editor's office (Sir David English) to point out that this would not help if the crews were 1) interrogated (hopefully you understand what I am saying here) and; 2) if they were placed on public display. And I told him why.
I was, therefore, present when he called in the News Editor and told him, in no uncertain terms, that the hounds were to be called off - without saying exactly why. (I suspect he felt that this was 'need to know'.)

Now we know what subsequently happened. I continued in my belief that the Editor's instructions were being obeyed, so it came as a huge surprise, some time after the end of GW1, when I found myself chatting to one of those who were paraded on TV who, in no uncertain terms, told me he would not speak to anybody from the DM as their reporters had continued to doorstep his wife for weeks!

I should add, too, that as the specialist correspondent, I wrote what I wrote as honestly as possible. On more than one occasion I was forced to defend my reputation by showing the subject the original, as submitted by me, compared to what had appeared in the rag over my byline - with changes that had been made without my knowledge and which I only saw once they were in print!

To be honest, agreeing to move to the DM was the biggest mistake of my career post leaving the services. I subsequently left the journalism game, totally, a few years later: it seemed that integrity was a word that was unknown in most of the press.

soddim
14th Nov 2011, 13:55
A very revealing post, Gerontocrat. It should be enough to cause all readers of this forum to desist any spurious urge to buy said DM - even for the missus.

Unfortunately, it is not the only paper out there to use such tactics in order to get half a story that is subsequently mis-reported.

Wander00
14th Nov 2011, 14:00
Nothing to do with the press, but wondered if the Mk 10 seat had been cleared for non-operational flight yet

Gerontocrat
14th Nov 2011, 14:08
Couldn't agree more. There were (and still are, I am sure) some honest folk around in Fleet Street. On the whole, I found the specialist correspondents (with a background in that speciality) were a good bunch, as were some of the senior correspondents who had been around a while. In addition, personalities change, so I can not speak to the current crop with any degree of knowledge, except to say that some of the really good guys who were at the DM in my time have gone on to other, sometimes greater, things.
But enough of the thread creep ...

500N
14th Nov 2011, 14:12
soddim

Add what Gerontocrat posted to what the NOTW has done over the last few years, I think it shows where the majity of the media are at.

"There were (and still are, I am sure) some honest folk around in Fleet Street."
Maybe, but as was shown in your post, even if you are a good egg, your editor may not be so it doesn't matter what you write, they will still change it.

.

lj101
14th Nov 2011, 14:15
Nothing to do with the press, but wondered if the Mk 10 seat had been cleared for non-operational flight yet

No - maybe tonight, maybe not.

Wander00
14th Nov 2011, 14:28
OK, thanks. Just interested as former jet jockey, current glider pilot, aviation person. Hope the Reds' armourers are in the clear.

EGLD
14th Nov 2011, 17:26
Seat was inspected by Martin Baker at the weekend, no idea what the outcome was.

cazatou
14th Nov 2011, 18:11
I would suggest that any "Findings" in respect of the Ejection seat would be "Sub Judice" at this time. There are several possibilities which would have to be investigated - including the possibility of evidence that would point to a possible Criminal act.

NB I am not suggesting that there was a Criminal act!!

jamesdevice
14th Nov 2011, 19:26
are only the UK Mk10s grounded? Or all aircraft fitted with them?

E-Spy
14th Nov 2011, 20:11
We didn't ground the German Tonka fleet. They were obviously aware of the accident, and I'm keen (obviously!) to make them aware of any findings that come out.

500N
14th Nov 2011, 20:18
"are only the UK Mk10s grounded? Or all aircraft fitted with them?"

I thought the original MOD Statement stated 3 types of aircraft
but can't find where they announced it.

jamesdevice
14th Nov 2011, 20:23
MOD would only state which UK aircraft were affected
When you look at the list of types worldwide using it, the potential problem becomes much larger
Martin Baker - Mk. 10 (http://www.martin-baker.com/products/Ejection-Seats/Mk--10.aspx)
Click the "variants" tab for a list of users
(http://www.martin-baker.com/products/Ejection-Seats/Mk--10.aspx)

oldmansquipper
14th Nov 2011, 22:38
Without a doubt M-B will have been inundated with questions from their prolific Mk 10 customer base from day one but, of course, they will not jump to any conclusions nor will they pre-judge this tragic incident.

However, it is good to see the MAA have called them (MB) into the investigation early. (I assume it is the MAA - not the MOD, by the way).

Corporal Clott
14th Nov 2011, 23:02
Been wracking my tiny brain over this...


- Seat firing handle pulled causing seat initiation cartridge to fire
- Harness retraction unit operated, command firing initiated
- Primary cartridge fired causing inner and intermediate pistons to rise, releasing top latch
- Seat rises up guide rails
- Miniature detonating cord trip initiates canopy fracturing system
- Secondary cartridges fire in turn as seat rises
- Electrical connections separate disconnecting seat actuator circuit, IFF
switch and oxygen regulator supply lead
- Aircraft portion of main oxygen generating system block separate
disconnecting main and back-up oxygen
- Personal equipment connector aircraft portion disconnects from seat portion
- Anti-g suit hose disconnects
- Leg restraint lines draw back and restrain aircrew’s legs
- Leg restraint lines become taut and rivets shear, freeing lines from floor brackets
- Trip rods withdraw sears from drogue gun and barostatic time-release units
- Emergency oxygen trips
- Remote rocket initiator operated by static line, cartridge fires to ignite rocket pack

- Rocket pack sustains upward thrust of ejection gun, diverging trajectories for front and rear seats
- After delay mechanism has operated, drogue gun piston fires
- Ejected piston withdraws closure pin from closure flaps of drogue parachute pack and deploys drogues.
- Deployment of drogues stabilize and retard the seat and aircrew

- Low altitude/High speed -
- Seat descends stabilised by drogues
- Barostatic time-release unit completes run and fire

- High speed/high altitude -
- Barostatic capsule operates to prevent parachute deployment above pre-determined altitude
- Barostatic controlled g-switch delays parachute deployment above 7000 ft until speed and g-force are reduced
- Barostatic time release unit operates below pre-determined altitude, completes run and fires

- Manual separation (override) used if automatic system fails
- Gas from cartridge used to
- Free drogue shackle link
- Release parachute mechanical lock
- Operate upper harness locks and lower harness release mechanism to free lower harness lugs, negative-g straps, leg restraint lines and personal equipment connector man portion
- Drogues withdraw parachute from container
- Sticker straps momentarily hold aircrew in seat
- Parachute develops, lifts aircrew and survival pack from seat and pulls sticker clips from clips causing aircrew and seat to diverge
- Normal parachute descent follows
- Aircrew releases either of two quick-release connectors to lower survival pack to end of line
- Survival pack opened manually when necessary

If the rocket was fired unintentionally, would the rest of seat work? I don't believe it would, but anyone care to correct me?

Seems the only rational explanation from 2000hrs of sitting on Mk10s various.

CPL Clott :confused:

The B Word
14th Nov 2011, 23:20
Clott

The rocket initiator to the rocket pack is a "one way street" in this diagram and is initated by a lanyard:

http://www.ejectorseats.co.uk/martin%20baker%20sju5a_files/image001.jpg

If set off, I don't believe the rest would function. I seem to remember this in groundschool as well.

The B Word

Easy Street
15th Nov 2011, 01:11
If the rocket is fired then the 2 trip rods which activate the BTRU and the Drogue Gun are pulled as the seat rises, so the post-ejection facilities should work as advertised. However if the handle is not pulled you would not get harness retraction and the Man Sep handle would be locked in.

dctyke
15th Nov 2011, 06:29
I have voiced a concern over ejection seats on this forum before. I did three tours in Seat Bays servicing them and three tours on Sqn's fitting them.

Up till the early 80's seats went to the seat bay every 6 months, the 6 monthly was mainly a visual with a complete strip-down every 12.

This then changed to every 12 months, it was not unusual to go out to the Sqn's between this period to carry out minor repairs to mainly fabric parts and very rarely damage caused by the many people getting in and out of the seat (there are levers and linkages along either side of the seat that could be damaged if stood on).

It was then changed to every two years (more bay call outs)

As I left 4 yrs ago I cannot confirm 1st hand but believe this is now every five years and some seats are crated up and serviced centrally with no bay expertise on units.

I remember a senior officer telling me it was 'acceptable risk management' and not a money saving exercise........................ !

Tinribs
15th Nov 2011, 13:41
Provided we don't pretend to know what caused this tragic accident to a
superb flyer it seems reasonable to make a list of possible causes

I seem to recall an event on a RN Harrier in which the drogue gun was set off by the seat being lowered onto a stray wander light on the floor of the aircraft

The unfortunate pilot was thought to have dropped the wander light on the floor and while trying to recover it by the cable set the drogue gun off pulling him and his chute through a small hole in the canopy

We must avoid making silly assumptions but it is worth considering the seat as a unit rather than a group of bits

VuctoredThrest
15th Nov 2011, 14:26
I think the incident you refer to was a RAF Harrier on air test from BAE Dunsfold with a test pilot ( T Scott (RN) RIP) and it was never proved what happened as the seat was never recovered. Although post the accident blocks were put around the saet linkages to stop them from being accidently bent and firing the seat uncommanded. One scenario was that the seat might have been being lowered over an unknown obstruction that bent the seat linkages (preventing the correct firing sequence being followed).
I was there at the time.

thunderbird7
15th Nov 2011, 15:13
I would expect that all operators who need to be informed of problems will be informed via official channels rather than PPRuNe.

BGG

You cheeky monkey ;)

John Farley
15th Nov 2011, 15:21
In the Taylor Scott accident the seat stayed in the aircraft.

The evidence that finished up on the ground near Boscombe allowed those who understood the seat mechanisms to be certain of what operated (fired) but not why they did because that required examination of components that stayed with the seat.

NutLoose
15th Nov 2011, 15:27
Are the front and rear canopy MDC independant of each other?

H Peacock
15th Nov 2011, 17:11
Are the front and rear canopy MDC independant of each other?

Yes, if operated by the relevant seat moving up the rail; no if you operate the internal or external MDC firing handles.

lj101
15th Nov 2011, 17:32
Wander00

Check your pm's

Wander00
15th Nov 2011, 18:13
lj1o1, I have and replied. Thanks. W

Photoplanet
15th Nov 2011, 21:59
From the photos I have seen, the ejection gun had fired..... The front cockpit MDC had either fired or been ejected through, whilst the rear was intact. From my distant memory of hawk sysems, I believe the MDC safety pins are fitted about the mid point on the canopy, on the stbd, by the hinge line .... Are there 1 or 2 pins, not sure whether 1 pin for all MDC, or 1 pin each for front/rear MDC..?

Regarding the question of the rocket pack firing unintentionally, and in isolation from any other ejection sequence events, I would speculate (I'm a rigger, not an armourer) that there would have been huge amounts of scorching in and around the cockppit area, as the rockets don't normally fire until the seat is on it's way up the rails powered by the ejection gun. To launch the seat by rockets alone would result in loads of fire damage to the interior and exterior of the cockpit areas, and a short range ejection result.

At work, I have heard other rumours, that have neither been seen in the press, or aired on PPRUNE, so I will leave them as speculation for the moment. The official enquiry should be definitive, there will have been several witnesses, and, although I have elaborated upon a technical point in response to a point raised by another member.... I will not speculate upon the causal factors.

iRaven
16th Nov 2011, 07:49
Photoplanet, there are scorch marks in this picture...
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/11/08/article-2059004-0EB8335A00000578-184_634x383.jpg

The Mk10 bang seat jets were still grounded on Monday night so they must have found something serious or cannot fathom what happened.

iRaven

airsound
16th Nov 2011, 09:18
Local (lay) people reported hearing a very loud bang - which would suggest cartridge firing, would it not?

airsound

csde_armourer
16th Nov 2011, 10:18
I've been following this since the accident happened. I maintained, fitted and removed, and occasionally flew in a number of Ejection Seat types whilst serving in the Royal Air Force: 4PB - Jet Provost 5A; 4H series - Hunter T-birds; 6MSB - Buccaneer. I also had knowledge of all Ejection Seat types through my role as Spares Forecasting Officer - Conventional Armament Systems - at CSDE. I also did the 10A - Tornado F3 Ejection Seat as part of the Tornado AD Wpns Q course as part of the FI prep; in the end I didn't go down south, but that's not relevant here.

B Word - thanks for posting that schematic; very useful.

Something that I don't believe has been mentioned is the phase of flight, i.e., was the aircraft on the ASP prior to engine start; post engine start, taxy for take-off, etc. This could have a bearing - fully admitted speculation on my part.

On the question of inadvertent initiation of the Rocket Pack, I asked the question regarding whether or not an Ejection Seat could go up the rails without the normal Primary/Secondary Cartridge initiation sequence having taken place. The consensus from Bay/Line Armourers, CSDE Wpn Spec Flt and a number of M-B engineers I spoke with was: maybe.

If the Seat Pan were to be positioned in its highest position - this being the most beneficial for maintenance access to the cockpit floor areas - there could be sufficient space available for the blast and reaction forces to be dissipated. Were the Seat Pan to be in its lowest position there could be sufficient reactive force from the rocket efflux acting on the base of the Seat Pan to overcome the Ejection Seat Top Latch - please note: the Top Latch is not "released" - thereby pushing the Ejection Seat up the Ejection Gun and Guide Rail Assembly. It would depend on the position of the Seat Pan, and whether or not the Ejection Seat was occupied at the time.

My thoughts are with Sean's family and friends, and the Red Arrows, especially the Armourers. RIP

Photoplanet
16th Nov 2011, 12:14
My point was more geared to the fact that the rocket pack is a booster to supplement the energy from the gun. Being lanyard operated, the rockets are fired towards the top of the seat rail travel, not burning away right from the start. For a rocket only incident, I would expect much more heat and flame damage than seems visible in the photos. The discolouration on the right hand fuselage side may even be from the MDC initiator cartridge....

lindslow
16th Nov 2011, 12:40
I'm not a professional pilot but this is a network and I have heard this rumour - "that the desicion on lifting the grounding of Hawk and Tornado is due at some point today".

Anyone else able to comment on that one please?

csde_armourer
16th Nov 2011, 12:47
I would expect much more heat and flame damage than seems visible in the photos. I agree...

The discolouration on the right hand fuselage side may even be from the MDC initiator cartridge. Was the MDC initiated? Have to wait for the report(s), etc. Discolouration from MDC initiation would be evident around the canopy frame, would it not? The discolouration evident in the image "appears" to be from the Rocket Pack efflux. Is the discolouration evident in images showing the other side of the aircraft?

soddim
16th Nov 2011, 12:52
Truly amazing to see a public inquiry in action on the internet - and all from photos!

lindslow
16th Nov 2011, 13:09
Truly amazing to see a public inquiry in action on the internet - and all from photos!

People will always speculate and theorise and let's not kid ourselves that any unfounded theories or assumptions based on photographs freely available in the public domain will affect the findings of any subsequent enquiry. The FACTS will be investigated and checked and the people involved in that process will no doubt examine the available photographs themselves anyway.

What they WON'T do is reach an evidential conclusion based on anything anyone on here may speculate about.

I sometimes wish this place would lighten up a bit and treat it for what it is - a forum.

Tinribs
16th Nov 2011, 13:30
I heard a hawk seat go off at RAE Bedford in about 82.

Pete had ejected v close to the ground

The sound was distinctive as abnormal and clearly an ejection but none of could say which part of the seat process we had heard

The gunfire and very short rocket burn are almost suncrinous

Often lay people make sense of what they have heard with words like bang, gun and rocket since their experience is limited

We should make due allowance for this in the witness comments describe above

Yellow Sun
16th Nov 2011, 14:07
Often lay people make sense of what they have heard with words like bang, gun and rocket since their experience is limited

We should make due allowance for this in the witness comments describe above

Indeed, I was told a story by a member of the BoI into a Harrier mid-air about his going to interview an eye witness to the accident. The observer had indeed clearly seen one of the aircraft involved crash quite close to him and was able to describe the event in considerable detail. Unfortunately he was totally unaware of the "accident"!

YS

airsound
16th Nov 2011, 14:30
Often lay people make sense of what they have heard with words like bang, gun and rocket since their experience is limited

We should make due allowance for this in the witness comments describe above Yes, but allowing for the unreliability of eye- (or ear-) witnesses, my point about the 'loud bang' was that it would suggest that a cartridge had fired, either with or without a rocket. The rocket presumably makes a much more whooshy sound (technical term) - even to laypeople.

airsound

Pontius Navigator
16th Nov 2011, 14:31
According to our local paper, a bit more factual that the DM, members of the Horncastle Rotary Club witnessed the incident. "We thought it was a firework going off."

They then went on to say the RAF confiscated cameras and memory cards.

More likely they requested to borrow cameras and memory cards.

lj101
16th Nov 2011, 17:30
I'm not a professional pilot but this is a network and I have heard this rumour - "that the desicion on lifting the grounding of Hawk and Tornado is due at some point today".

Anyone else able to comment on that one please?



The UTI was signed off this afternoon. Checks in progress.

Clockwork Mouse
16th Nov 2011, 17:32
What is a UTI? I assume it's not a urinary tract infection?

longer ron
16th Nov 2011, 18:06
Urgent Techical Instruction

lindslow
16th Nov 2011, 18:50
So what does it mean when the UTI is 'signed off'? Pardon me for being a bit dense here!

longer ron
16th Nov 2011, 18:58
The UTI has no relevance to any discussion on here I am afraid ,you will perhaps understand reticence about posting technical information on a public forum.
But it must be fairly obvious that technical checks will be carried out on bang seat equipped a/c before they are allowed to fly.

rgds LR

lj101
16th Nov 2011, 20:05
So what does it mean when the UTI is 'signed off'? Pardon me for being a bit dense here!

The UTI is written, someone disagrees, rewritten, someone disagrees, rewritten etc etc... until finally, everyone agrees, and it is signed off. This process involved quite a large chain that includes various civilian companys and RAF risk holders.

lindslow
16th Nov 2011, 21:37
The UTI is written, someone disagrees, rewritten, someone disagrees, rewritten etc etc... until finally, everyone agrees, and it is signed off. This process involved quite a large chain that includes various civilian companys and RAF risk holders.

Thanks for that - answers my question nicely, and without any reference to technical information, which I quite understand won't be posted (or shouldn't be) on here.

whisperer
16th Nov 2011, 21:52
And then, after all the bunfighting, the UTI gets released on or about 1300 on a friday......

oldmansquipper
16th Nov 2011, 22:58
In my day they were PWIs (Preliminary Warning Instructions) - and, yes, it usually took 3 or 4 days to investigate an incident (which usually included stopping the "starred" staffs jumping to conclusions), determining the fix and penning the instruction. This meant that the end of the week was normal and such instructions were referred to as the "Friday PWI". In those days of course, there were enough experienced engineers in blue suits etc to keep it down to 3 days or so.

Sadly....I am not sure that is still the case.

spekesoftly
17th Nov 2011, 12:11
From the BBC 17/11/2011

A ban on non-essential flying in Tornado attack jets, implemented after the death of Red Arrows pilot, has been lifted, the Ministry of Defence says.
Flt Lt Sean Cunningham, 35, was killed after being ejected from his plane while on the ground at RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire on 8 November.
The RAF is still reviewing evidence regarding Hawk T1, Hawk T2 and Tucano planes so the suspension of flights in those aircraft remains.

Red Line Entry
17th Nov 2011, 12:18
CSDE Amourer (oh, I miss Swanton, lovely stn!),

On the limits of my knowledge here, but isn't the 'wedge' shape of the Top Latch Plunger specifically made such that as the INNER piston moves up, it pushes the TLP sideways against its spring and this does 'unlock' it from the top latch window. If the rocket pack had fired then the seat as a whole would have experienced an upward force but the inner piston would not have extended and there would have been no 'unlocking' of the TLP, thus only if the window fractured would the seat have been free to move? (and, of course, we wouldn't have seen the ejection piston fully extended?)

Green Flash
17th Nov 2011, 12:26
speke, I can confirm that a bunch of Moray Land Sharks were working the Great Glen this morning, I bet there are alot of busy but relieved people at Lossie at the moment.

CathayBrat
17th Nov 2011, 15:03
Emergency MPD 2011-008-E: Martin-Baker Aircraft Company Limited: Inspection of Ejection Seat Drogue Shackle Connection to Scissor Shackle | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=4766)

Any bearing on the incident? Although it still does not explain why the seat went bang in the first place.

Alber Ratman
17th Nov 2011, 16:36
The CAA EMPD seems to be due to the tragic incident. .

oldmansquipper
17th Nov 2011, 18:17
Mk 10s in UK Tornados were modified and fitted with gas shackles in the 90s. Hence the clearance to fly?

Fox Four
17th Nov 2011, 20:31
Are they saying that if you over tighten the bolt on the drogue shackle while in the scissor shackle it clamps it shut?

csde_armourer
17th Nov 2011, 23:34
Red Line Entry:

oh, I miss Swanton, lovely stn!

Me too, mate. CSDE "Walkabouts", getting a new SWO shouting at you for walking on the grass! Happy days - then the Brown Jobbies go planting trees on the airfield!! Eejitts.

isn't the 'wedge' shape of the Top Latch Plunger specifically made such that as the INNER piston moves up, it pushes the TLP sideways against its spring and this does 'unlock' it from the top latch window

Pushing my memory here also. I don't believe the force require to overcome the Top Latch has to come from the pressure build up in the Main Gun "tube". This is sort of related to the 10A Tornado requirement - documented, I believe in Marham incident thread - of trying to lift the fitted seat - handwheel removed - up the rails to determine whether or not the Top Latch is correctly engaged. I understand your use of "unlock" in this context - the M-B site and the description provided earlier in this thread - just before the schematic posted by B Word - uses "releasing" which I don't believe is correct -

Post 188 by Cpl Clott Primary cartridge fired causing inner and intermediate pistons to rise, releasing top latch

- as the Top Latch re-engages with the Inner Piston once through the "Gate". On one of the Ejection Seats that came out of the JP5A out of Cranditz that crashed at Swinderby - 81? - the Inner Piston was still in situ between the Main Beams, held in place by the Top Latch, when I disarmed the Guillotine Assembly prior to getting the remains of the Seat back to the Control Point.

However, if the Ejection Seat in the Hawk had a feature similar to the "Bottom Latch" feature of the Type 3, and earlier seats, then yes, there would have had to be Primary Cartridge initiation as the expanding gases in the Gun Tube did "release" that Bottom Latch.

I don't know if this answers your question - as others have noted here, we will all have to wait for the investigation specialists to do their stuff and for the reports to be released. BTW, are/were you an Armourer? Just interested...

NutLoose
18th Nov 2011, 00:05
Guys let the BOI do it's job, all this speculation about why it didn't work still does not explain the ejection in the first place......

dervish
18th Nov 2011, 05:30
I don't think it does any real harm discussing such issues NutLoose. After all, this forum is full of examples where the BoI/SI has been lacking to say the least, only for the underlying problems to be revealed here. Chinook, C130, Nimrod are good examples. I suspect the MoD keep a quiet eye on pprune for any help they can get. There is almost certainly more collective knowledge among the retired guys on here than MoD employs these days!

Red Line Entry
18th Nov 2011, 07:57
Nutloose,

Take your point, but we have this issue on pprune every time there's an accident, and particularly a fatality. It's human nature to speculate and this is a rumour network. Let's not kid ourselves, this discussion is taking place in crew rooms up and down the country.

Of course, pprune is far more open than a crewroom and we need to bear that in mind, but having a debate about how the seat works and what COULD go wrong (as opposed to what did) increases flight safety awareness and I think that serves a worthwhile purpose.

Journos will write rubbish whatever we say, so I don't think that self-censorship here will make any difference.

oldmansquipper
18th Nov 2011, 08:17
Good points, chaps.
Well made. (both Dervish & RLE).

APG63
18th Nov 2011, 08:59
Quite right! What's point of a discussion forum if we don't discuss things?

What this thread really does illustrate is just how much real knowledge members bring to the table. Readers are quite entitled to decide what is idle speculation and what is well-considered, fact-based opinion. Personally, I enjoy the speculation too.

Well done all. Keep posting!!!

Dengue_Dude
18th Nov 2011, 09:51
In my opinion there are too many thread police who reach the edge of their comfort zone then 'encourage' the rest of us to stop dicussing the subject.

Poke off - it's a rumour network like it says in the forum name.

Don't like it?

Leave . . . Simples

BEagle
18th Nov 2011, 10:27
In contrast to the Microsoft Flight Sim warriors and other know-alls who infest other PPRuNe forums, discussion by knowledgable folk on this sad event has been very considered. No-one has posted wild-ar$ed guesses or claimed to know what actually happened; it has been refreshing to see such a mature approach on PPRuNE.

So, in this particular case, yes, the thread 'police' should indeed combine sex and travel!

talkpedlar
18th Nov 2011, 10:59
FWIW and IMHO, there must be hundreds of us old-timers with hands-on experience and clear(ish) memories of mil-kit. Following incidents and accidents we tend to follow discussions with interest and only contribute when we have something constructive to bring to the table. It would be a crying shame if over-vigilant censorship resulted from the "don't speculate" crowd. You folks still taking the Queen's shilling seem to be doing a fine job despite widely publicised cutbacks. Well done and thank you to you all. TP

APG63
18th Nov 2011, 11:46
Yeah. Waht you guys said. That's exactly what I meant.

NutLoose
18th Nov 2011, 12:14
What I was trying to say is the BOI will establish the chain of events, as to why the drogue appears to have failed to deploy is secondary to the main issue, true it has a bearing on a successful outcome, which this sadly wasn't, but the main concern surely must be as to why the seat and rocket (If it did) fired in the first place, you can speculate all you like but please remember members of the families involved may also be reading this thread.

And far from being a "thread Police" I simply prior to this linked the thread to the Condolence book out of a mark of respect to the poor guy.

Alber Ratman
18th Nov 2011, 16:26
As Nutloose says, the facts that seem to have arisen that the CAA's Permit Directive (that most propably, and and that is my opinion) is a parallel pathway to the UTI raised against the RAF Mk 10 (and varient) seats. Fairly clear then why the accident ended the way it did, but the top and tail of this tragic tale will definately have to wait until the BOI issues its report. That could be some time I think, because other investigations will be occuring IMHO.

ShyTorque
18th Nov 2011, 17:14
Of course the BOI will establish the cause (we hope so, they don't always).

However, will a quietly reasoned discussion about the details of how the seat works (by folks with some professional knowledge) really upset the family any further? Because of the circumstances of this particular accident, I doubt it. The bereaved family might even take some solace over the fact that the accident is under discussion. They will understand that we're all very concerned about their tragic loss and that many of us share their grief. I attended a seminar last week where we held a short period of silence for the deceased.

However, sometimes, the circumstances of an accident are very different and more caution might be exercised.

In this case, the cause of the accident seems reasonably clear cut - the ejection seat appears to suffered some sort of technical problem. It obviously went off when it shouldn't have and appears not to have worked correctly afterwards, with terribly tragic consequences. All that is being discussed is why this occurred.

I once flew for a living sitting on a bang seat, now I don't. Even so, I'm still interested to read about this technical stuff.

jindabyne
18th Nov 2011, 17:37
In this case, the cause of the accident seems reasonably clear cut - the ejection seat appears to suffered some sort of technical problem.

Really? That seems a tad assertive at this stage.

ShyTorque
18th Nov 2011, 17:45
You have an alternative assertion?

Note the words "reasonably" and "appears".

I'm not going to argue with you. I'm completely open minded to alternatives.

longer ron
18th Nov 2011, 17:46
The cause of the chute not deploying appears to be clear cut but the actual initiation of the firing sequence may not be so clear cut and I am not sure that endless speculation will get to the bottom of it,I am sure that we all have our theories of possible causes.
It was such an unusual scenario - I don't think anything quite like this has ever happened before (of course I am aware of other accidental ejections but they were very different).
In this (tragic) particular case I am on the side of waiting for the official report,anybody who 'needs' to know will be kept in the loop.

Easy Street
18th Nov 2011, 17:47
I, with others, think the discussion on here has been very reasonable (and having had a brief professional acquaintance with Sean I would be among the first to shout 'STOP' if wanton speculation was underway).

The drogue and scissor shackle malfunctions suggested by the CAA document are one thing, and I hope that the evidence that will be available from the seat itself will allow reasonably quick progress on that aspect of the investigation. The more puzzling aspect of this sad accident is why the ejection happened in the first place; photos of the aircraft on the line showed no evidence of anything which might cause a stationary ground ejection (such as a major fire) and I suspect it is this aspect which the BOI will find much slower to unpick.

jindabyne
18th Nov 2011, 18:42
Shy

Neither am I - please see PM

Jinda

RileyDove
18th Nov 2011, 18:50
Its worth pointing out that there is a wealth of evidence to examine. The seat itself will reveal what parts have been activated. The aircraft and in particular the canopy and the position of various items of kit will give a fuller understanding of what happened i.e did the MDC fire or did the seat punch through the canopy .

I dont recall any instances of seats being fired off on their own in aircraft so the important thing to find out is what was different to any other crew in.

Alber Ratman
18th Nov 2011, 22:40
cazatou, the two accidents are not related in any form whatsoever.
Until we are informed by the first BOI, it is unknown if AAES operation was attempted or not.

As for the Scampton accident, Zero-Zero ejections are exceedingly rare, usually the preserve of Harrier incidents in the hover (and the zero in height is always a negative due to sink rate, although the aircraft is positive in height). Ejections at zero speed on the ground are usually only test fires by Martin Baker or other seat manufacturers. Only other I'm aware of was Greg Nobles in 1996. However the seat was fatally compromised by impact damage prior to his attempted ejection. I saw the remains of the seat and the aircraft as crash guard, 1 hour after the accident happened, with all items where they ended up. In a zero-zero ejection, other dynamic forces that would affect the seat on engress and parachute deployment in other flight regimes do not exist.

back end o' the bus
18th Nov 2011, 23:59
Sad times for the team again, can any one enlighten us;-

1 Was the aircraft parked on the line and being crewing in or taxiing...before or after display practice?
2 Can accidental pulling of the rocket pack sear alone initiate the ejection sequence?
3 The Drogue has a static line so should have initiated.

Its been a while since the seat phase at Cosford.....25 yrs...

sitigeltfel
19th Nov 2011, 05:40
I dont recall any instances of seats being fired off on their own in aircraft so the important thing to find out is what was different to any other crew in.

A link to the technical issues is embedded in the later part of the article.

Irish Luck - Surviving Partial Ejection from A-6 Aircraft (http://www.gallagher.com/ejection_seat/)

tu chan go
19th Nov 2011, 07:09
I personally welcome the discussion on this topic as I would not have seen the CAA EMPD if the discussion had not existed. (I may have seen it through being shown it on the Squadron but I doubt it). As a current flyer using the Mk10 seat, I need ALL the information I can get to make a reasoned decision as to whether to trust the seat.

Longer Ron - we have asked for information as to why the seat failed to operate AFTER it left the aircraft - we've been told that the info is not cleared for release!! I am supposed to be flying an air test on an aircraft thats been sitting on the ground for 11 months tomorrow - I want to know whats going on but its very difficult to get the required reassurance.

Nutloose - as long as no-one badmouths or slanders anyone, whats the problem with discussing the technical aspects of the failure with some extremely experienced people? If it had been me in the accident, I would want my family to know everything about the incident.