JP landing instruction

[chopd95]

Gentlemen, would one of you have a link to that splendid example of QFI'ing in a JP (possibly not standard CFS patter) where the underperforming stude is seriously b......d through the approach and then given the encouraging words along the lines of "you are too tense, just relax".

[TEEEJ]

PM and e-mail sent with video link.

TJ

[blah blah blah]

Any chance of the link being added to the thread?

Cheers

[A2QFI]

Yes Please!

[BEagle]

Yer tiz:

ZWkeRVQAf58

(Starts at about 1:22)

But it was a put up job for the BBC luvvies - not the QFI's normal instructional style at all!

[newt]

Are you sure about that Beagle? I seem to remember being shouted at quite a lot!!

My worst experience was at Chivenor where a certain instructor shouted so much I gave him control and he took us back to base! I thought his whole aim in life was to scare me to death and get me chopped! Funnily enough it did not work and after a flight check with the Boss next day, I never had to fly with that instructor ever again!

The Luvvies would have had a field day!:ok::ok:

[A2QFI]

In early '64 I was having predictable problems landing a Gnat on the 6000 ft wet slippery runway, with a x wind, at Rissy. My Antipodean instructor (B R) thought that bellowing at me was going to help - it didn't. Anybody remember a resurfacing involving some lethal-when-wet material called "Slick Slurry"? It was like oily glass when damp or wet.

[Wander00]

Reminds me more of my Flying Scholarship instructor on Austers at Sywell. JP instructors I flew with all seemed to have a relaxed style, other than the odd one or two

[Arm out the window]

Got to love how he's up him mercilessly all the way down finals, then when they jump out and take their helmets off the QFI comes across all matey! Note the student's nervous response. Thanks Sir, you're a prick!

"Come on, this will just not do! You're making some really stupid mistakes..."

"You're not looking at the right things, I mean, Christ, that's the airspeed indicator, it tells you how fast you're going!"

[ShyTorque]

That QFI makes it obvious why it was called the "cock"pit.

Many of us had to put up with "instruction" like that, or drop by the wayside.
Flying with someone like him could easily set a student's confidence back a month or two, or even worse, destroy it.

I'm sure things in the military are better these days; quality of instruction rather than quantity.

[A2QFI]

The other side of the coin was the CinC Trg who let it be known that there were no bad students, only bad instructors and chopping students was not permitted (64 to 66 ish). We found a way round it needless to say!

[rolling20]

Many of us had to put up with "instruction" like that, or drop by the wayside.
Flying with someone like him could easily set a student's confidence back a month or two, or even worse, destroy it.

Hear, Hear!

[Wander00]

Talking of instructors, anyone know what happened to John Metcalfe - I think he was a creamie, at least he was a fg off when I was his stude. Great guy and taught me a lot, well, everything really. Had a lovely Triumph TR

[Canadian Break]

Anyone remember right hand circuits at Linton on Wednesdays? I had a trip with the Flt Cdr, not long into the course on a Wednesday. After a couple of circuits this idiot was screaming like a banshee and smacking me over the head with his gloves! I really felt like leaning across and pulling his seat pan handle. Man was a complete t**t. I think that put me on the slippery slope to being chopped - but it took them another 60 hours to make their minds up. I wonder if it's still like that in these PC days? CB

[charliegolf]

Seriously, did no-one at least threaten to deck the git for that kind of action? They have all the power anyway: why be knobish too? Did it happen to Jockie Weir, I wonder?

Small people.

CG

[aw ditor]

Wednesday afternoon' was "Sports Afternoon", right hand circuits to avoid overfly of rugby pitches?

[chopd95]

Many thanks TJ and Beagle - that's the one!

The non-standard patter from a Varsity QFI at Oakington went along the lines of

"you are making this too difficult, I like to do everything the easy way - except s....l intercourse which I perform standing on my head in a hammock" !!!

I have long forgotten all else that he said, but somehow that one stuck!

[Wander00]

I recall an instructor at Valley teaching formation (in which either me or the Gnat was very twitchy) -"Be gentle. Just remember - treat the stick like your girlfriend's nipple!"

[TheSmiter]

Might be one of those urban legends I'm imagining, but wasn't the furore over the instructional techniques shown in this series, the main driver for setting up AIC (Aircrew Instructors Course) at CFS?

And no, it wasn't just confined to pilots, my OCU screen (early 80's) was an over bearing bully whose welcoming speech to me and my fellow 'Bloggs' was "I'm **** ***** , and I'm a complete b*****d. I've got a 50% chop rate, so which one of you two is it gonna be?" *

I learnt a lot from about instructing from **** when it became my turn many years later!

* Yes, it was I, succombed to his tactics but subsequently sailed through my recourse with a fresh screen, fresh attitude and bags more confidence. As for the bully, well the RAF eventually saw through him and used Options to boot him into touch :D

[culloden]

"What does your mother call you Trenchard?"
"Cuddles, Sir"
"Well Cuddles your chopped!!"

[Festive turkey]

I was chopped in no small way because of an instructor who punctuated his criticism by twatting my bone dome. I went from safe solo to chopped quite quickly - and only 19 years old with a PPL and glider bronze.

[Trim Stab]

I find it very difficult to believe that the video clip truly depicted the standards of RAF instruction at the time, but if it really did, then we must have wasted a lot of money and a lot of talent during those years.

[ShyTorque]

It wasn't fully typical but by no means unknown at that BFTS, at least in my experience in the late 1970s. I was surprised how many QFIs seemed to be non-volunteers for the job.

We had one particular individual with a very nasty reputation. I didn't fly with him for long before I got to the situation where I spent much of my airborne time with him more or less wanting to punch his lights out. I went to the flight commander (Hinch) and asked for an instructor change. I was told "Well, someone's got to fly with him".

I obviously wasn't the first to ask but I did get an instructor change.

[Arm out the window]

In the late 80s RAAF, we had a senior officer (AOC Training Command as I recall) issue a directive to the flying schools that we were to lift our game regarding attitudes towards students generally.

It was an attempt at forced cultural change that involved things like trying to stamp out some of the jargon in use (eg you weren't to say a student was up for a scrub ride, it became an assessment ride or something like that), and we were to focus on helping people pass rather than weeding out the shaky ones.

To some, it wasn't much of a change - lots of us had great empathy for the studes and didn't like seeing them fail, but there were definitely some QFIs whose default mode was pressure and more pressure, a real 'them and us' attitude.

You can't be everyone's mate, of course, and not everyone will pass - we still need to fight to maintain standards - but there were a few shockers around.

I remember one bloke who would berate his students sarcastically and mercilessly. His cubicle wasn't far from mine; the put-downs and rhetoric would come floating strongly overhead and you'd think 'Glad I don't have to fly with you!'

We did have a few guys around the system who would whack the students on the side of the helmet, but I think verbal abuse was more the order of the day for those who leant towards an anti-student stance.

Having said all that, the system worked pretty well on the whole and I think the number of good guys well outweighed the bastards. There was just a less politically correct way of doing things, and less arse-covering paperwork required when someone did get scrubbed.

[Arm out the window]

On a lighter note:

-"Be gentle. Just remember - treat the stick like your girlfriend's nipple!"

Drag it to all four points of the compass to the limits of its travel and then recover from the ensuing UA?

[OK465]

I'm pretty sure some of the world's air forces frown upon touching the stick with a tongue.

[stumpey]

OK465, nearly choked on me yogurt! :D

[27mm]

Canadian Break's post reminded me of the right hand circuits at Linton on Wednesdays and of a certain JP QFI's subtle approach to instruction. On this occasion, one of the mates on my course was sweating his way through his PFL pattern, religiously calling out the checks as he spiralled down the left hand pattern, when he felt the QFI scrawling something on his right kneeboard; he glanced across in a panic and saw just one word - Wednesday. :ok:

[newt]

Now that reminds me of attempting to join the circuit at Leeming one day! As we spiral down in the overhead my Man says "lot of Chipmunks here today" I look down to see a nice row of them parked on the disused runway! "Must be on a landaway Sir" Continues with talking to Leeming tower and positioning for the runway. Eventually overworked brain kicks in CHIPMUNKS!!! Now take a good look at the airfield ! Yes there is the A1 but something is not quite right!

Power on and start to climb! Change frequency to Dishforth Tower and apologise for the infringement!

Not a word said from the righthand seat!! In the debrief was told, "At least you took the hint!" His last student had actually landed at Dishforth!!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Remember an invisible JP with 2 CFS QFIs calling downwind & finals for Leeming
ATC : Check you`re not at Dishforth
JP (after a long pause) HOW embarrassing!

I had excellent QFIs (and QWIs) at every stage of training (NUAS, 3 Sqn Cranwell, 3Sqn Valley and Brawdy TWU in the `80s) - damn sure I wouldn`t have made it otherwise. Mind you, although I only went FJ to keep my bonedome for protection, all physical abuse was delivered with feeling, and in my best interests. Really.

[Scruffy Fanny]

So funny if it wasn't true!!- having shouted at the stude the QFI says- just relax your all tense...i wonder why!!!- They still existed when i was at Fenton in fact I'm sure all these QFIs ended up on the LTF!!!- If memory serves me the said QFI must have been at 1 FTS Linton about 1979-1980...any names??

[reacher]

BFTS T'worth. Mid to late 2000's. Still had a bit physical going on in the cockpit with one QFI. Pretty sure he was eventually put in his place......

[Arm out the window]

Military or civvie?

[BEagle]

The sharp banter some QFIs issued was much more amusing - and got the message across:

(Ballsed up approach): "Shall I overshoot, Sir?" "No, let's just f***ing crash!"

(Flapless approach): "I've been in the red/reds before, Bloggs - but that's the first time I've been in the green/greens on a flapless approach!"

(Forgottten checks): "Wheels might help....."

(Early IF): "How is it that you little buggers can fly at precisely 1377 feet, but never at 1500?"

(Student unable to land on the centreline, get progressivly further right - there are workmen on the grass): "Well, you certainly got their attention that time!"

And, of course, the classic: "I've told you how to do it, I've shown you how to do it. I can do it, the aircraft can do it - SO WHY THE F*** CAN'T YOU DO IT?"

[beamer]

Whatever happened to Messrs Oxborrow and Jamieson after their starring roles in the aforementioned clip from 'Fighter Pilot' ?

[spekesoftly]

Whatever happened to Messrs Oxborrow and Jamieson ..........Mike Jamieson was a Captain with easyJet for a number of years. He featured in the Airline TV series at least twice - once dressed as "Father Christmas", and on another occasion with Tony Underwood in a simulator converting from the B737-300 to the 737-700.

[truckie]

Beamer,
Mr Oxborrow spent most of his time on Hercs ( some of it while you were there) his last tour was at Northolt. He left to run a hotel with his wife I think.

[OvertHawk]

That kind of instructional technique is not confined to the military...

Whilst line training with a well know North Sea operator i spent 20 hrs with just such an individual who took me from happily above the curve down to barley coherent. He would constantly criticise every action to the point that you spent so much time listening to him berate you that you then made another cock up - which he would then lambast you for........ ad-nauseum.

As for wanting to punch him.... He'll never know how close he came to being mowed off his bike on the way home one dark rainy night. (Seriously! - i actually accelerated towards him before i came to my senses).

But....... I look back now and i did learn from him - not the stuff he was trying to teach me, but important things none the less.

I met the retired head of the training school shortly afterwards and asked - "why the f*** was XX a line trainer?" - his response - "you come back in ten years and tell me".

OH

[Canadian Break]

Scruffy
The man in my post went by the initials ML.

[chopd95]

Towers '68, Sqdn Ldr B J in RHS, above cloud, attempting a DME fix, "never mind that - look over there - building cumulus means a mass of rising hot air -can only be Trenchard Hall "

Many years later, taking a mate for a bimble in a PA28, crossing the Wirral, friendly call to Liverpool -extremely lovely female response " G-B... we have an air display over Hoylake - suggest you either do something very interesting or change your route" !

[ShyTorque]

took me from happily above the curve down to barley coherent.

Sorting out the wheat from the chaff? :E

;)

[OvertHawk]

i deserved that Shy :O

[Fortissimo]

Happy memories as a B2 QFI (well, memories anyway) of a JP3 stude doing a reasonable job in a fairly strong crosswind. I let him persist (mistake) despite his having drifted onto the downwind side of the runway. Imagine my surprise, and his, when he decided to kick of the drift with a good boot of the wrong rudder. With me now flying (ish...) as we left the runway sideways at 0ft 6", I can still remember wondering which would come first, the stall or what passed for power, and why the runway lights were now 3 ft high!

I learned from that experience and so was ready to seize control in good time from one of his course-mates, a gentleman of Middle Eastern origin, who (unusually) followed some of my my instructions to the letter. With a gentle 5 kts down the strip, he produced an immaculate 3 degree approach at Dishcloth that would have resulted in a touchdown just past the numbers had I left him to it. Sadly, I must have omitted to mention earlier that it was traditional to point the ac somewhere down the runway when landing. He was not pleased when I suggested that 30 degrees off runway heading was perhaps a bit much on this occasion...

[diginagain]

I had the temerity to ask my IRE if he'd burnt his breakfast toast midway through a PAR at Odiham, as the close confines of our Gaz had become rather fetid. The debrief was short, and was followed by an interview with OC ARW, who apprised me of the fact that, the previous afternoon my companion had torched the AAC balloon.

Our paths would cross several years later when he was BALO at 3 Bde, and would have to ask me (nicely) to release aircraft held by JATOC.