C90 fried at mb

[Blank]

Heard that the OAA c90 had been through a bit of torture latley 1000degrees for 10 secs Both sides RHE new hot section LHE making smoke but still checking it out..... Anyone shed some light?

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Cost $250K.........:D

[WannaBeBiggles]

OUCH! Which cadets get the King Air training?

[havick]

it's a training aircraft, these things happen even with experienced drivers...

in a nutshell, big deal.. expensive mistake but I bet you they'll never do it again.

[clear to land]

Have near on 1000hrs in C90' s and lots more with PT6. Got me stumped as to how you could even come close to cooking one like that,let alone 2!:=

[AerobaticArcher]

Start attempt with a weak battery?

[MyNameIsIs]

Start attempt with a weak battery?

Followed by a lack of hot start procedure?
On both engines?......................

You'll notice a weak start even before you put the fuel in. Even if you have half a clue you'll catch it early and cut the fuel before ITT gets anywhere near redline.


Have near on 1000hrs in C90' s and lots more with PT6. Got me stumped as to how you could even come close to cooking one like that,let alone 2!
Too right!
I've started some pretty old PT6s in 40 degree heat on short turnarounds with no wind at various altitudes. Even with a slightly depleated battery they never got over their redline, let alone near the start limit!



1000deg for 10 seconds on both, crikey. Someone f****d up.
Glad I ain't the one having tea n biccies to explain that...... or paying the bill!

[RENURPP]

havick
*

it's a training aircraft, these things happen even with experienced drivers...

in a nutshell, big deal.. expensive mistake but I bet you they'll never do it again.


What absolute rubbish. These things may happen, it is a Big deal, and with this sort of attitude no wonder standards on the decline. It's simply not acceptable.
I would be interested to hear what you actually think is unaccptable if cooking two engines is simply bad luck?
Starting a turbine should be easier than a piston.

[Propstop]

I have maintained PT6 for over 40 years and have started them with varying states of battery charge and have never had an overtemp on start.
If the battery is too weak it will not generally spin it above 10-12% and should be enough warning to abandon there and then. If not then a hot start and CT wheel burning is assured, not to mention the NGV.
I have on my computer very descriptive pics of that and will try and post for the benifit of those who have not seen the damage which can be done with hot starts.

[neville_nobody]

I highly doubt someone would hot start two engines at once. It more likely scenario is on takeoff or a goaround and they're not paying attention and fire walled the power levers, frying the engines. As stated above hot starting a PT6 is difficult as you should see it coming...low compressor speed or rapidly increasing ITT.

[havick]

What absolute rubbish. These things may happen, it is a Big deal, and with this sort of attitude no wonder standards on the decline. It's simply not acceptable.
I would be interested to hear what you actually think is unaccptable if cooking two engines is simply bad luck?
Starting a turbine should be easier than a piston.

I didn't say it was acceptable. You're misinterpreting me. All I'm saying is that cooking engines can and do happen (even to the most experienced drivers), whilst I don't condone these mistakes from occuring I do find it in poor taste that others here lavish in someone elses expensive mistake because of the organisation that it occured to (just look at who started the thread, a newbie on his/her 2nd post).

I have no affiliations with OAA but it seems that anyone will jump on any mistake that occurs with them. I just think that some incidents that aren't safety related should just be left in-house. I'm sure the instructor didn't set out to cook the engines, hopefully they've learned something from their expensive mistake. There's no need to advertise every c*ck up someone makes if it's probably most likely an individual lesson learned.

** Now that this thread has made the incident public knowledge, I would be more interested to know if it was a trend monitoring system that picked up the overtemp, or whether the instructor fessed upto it upon returning to the lines.

** There's a few helicopters that have had the same treatment as the said C90, but you don't see that being flaunted around here or on the rotorheads section.

[notaplanegeek]

t's a training aircraft, these things happen even with experienced drivers...

in a nutshell, big deal.. expensive mistake but I bet you they'll never do it again.

Bull****. It doesn't just happen. And just because its a training aircraft that does not increase the likelihood of having a hot start. You should know your engine, how it sounds, what indications you should expect and always have you own limit of when to cut it. If you are getting close to red line even on a super hot day with a quick turn around the engine is obviously telling you something or you are not preforming the start correctly.

[havick]

notaplanegeek.. did you bother to read my post just above yours?

I'm alluding to the fact that someone pipes up on their 2nd post on pprune to take a swipe at OAA. I don't condone hot starts/overtemps, however it is an occurence that is not unheard of in our industry. I just don't feel that advertising a c*ck up that is really an individual lesson learned really benefits anyone.

My original post was rushed and probably didn't get my point across too well.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

2 engines 'cooked'?.

Maybe the bungs on both sides left in...?.

[Wally Mk2]

This event flaws me:ugh: It's a reflection on the training as well as the poor system knowledge of the user. PT-6's are amongst the most idiot proof turbines around even a kid could start one if he/she remembers the basic figures!
Hopefully someone has learnt big time on this one!

Wmk2

[Jack Ranga]

You'll notice a weak start even before you put the fuel in. Even if you have half a clue you'll catch it early and cut the fuel before ITT gets anywhere near redline.

Or not put the fuel in to start with

[JustJoinedToSearch]

This is obviously false.

100 hour cadets are good enough to fly A320's, so there's no way they could be responsible for such a 'rookie' mistake.:E

[notaplanegeek]

notaplanegeek.. did you bother to read my post just above yours?

I'm alluding to the fact that someone pipes up on their 2nd post on pprune to take a swipe at OAA. I don't condone hot starts/overtemps, however it is an occurence that is not unheard of in our industry. I just don't feel that advertising a c*ck up that is really an individual lesson learned really benefits anyone.

My original post was rushed and probably didn't get my point across too well.

Well yeah I don't think you would be expecting a pat on the back for advertising a stuff up like that.
new
This is was never intended to take a dig at OAA. I have supervised new pilots starting turboprops and if one of my students did that I would be physically moving their hand into the idle cut off position for them if they we not to react. Still don't understand how it happens and yet there were two sets of eyes? Do they have BGT training there?

1000deg for 10 seconds on both, crikey. Someone f****d up. I don't know if this is true or not but whats going on? And not just one, TWO. wtf????

Ok easy explanation... disgruntled instructor/cadet saying something to management? Yes I have heard of that before, but somewhere else.

[m.r.a.z.23]

I heard it was in-flight, possibly during a go-around, not during the start.

[Jamair]

RFG - leaving the bungs in won't cause an overtemp, have seen it done by a certainer pprooner who will remain nameless - gets the oil a bit hot though! The bung will end up on top of the oil cooler.

[VH-FTS]

Possibly used the piston technique of firewalling the throttles/power levers. Over TQ/temp - oops! :o

[T28D]

#19 (http://www.pprune.org/6795716-post19.html) (permalink (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/468382-c90-fried-mb.html#post6795716)) m.r.a.z.23 (http://www.pprune.org/members/297780-m-r-a-z-23)

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sydney, NSW
Posts: 14


I heard it was in-flight, possibly during a go-around, not during the start.


Wow would have to be the over torque of the century

[Toruk Macto]

Can anyone explain why you would start the second one after over temping the first one ? :ugh:

[VH-XXX]

Maybe they busted through the tabs and went full military power like in the movies.

[Checkboard]

How about: "Hmmm ... I wonder if I can save time by starting both engines together? .." :ouch:

[MyNameIsIs]

Nice theory Checkboard.... but really how much time would you save?

Seeing as though it is possible to start two PT6s on a KingAir in two minutes without rushing, you'll save more time by chosing an optimum level!


If the reported 1000 for 10 seconds occurred on both, my money is on something like takeoff, a go-around or getting way too enthusiastic with the reverse. It's just not 'easily' possible any other way.


It does beg the question- how did it get that far gone in the first place?
I've been a little ham-fisted once or twice and seen the ITT just about poke redline, but still FAR below any transient or sustained limiting temperature.


Rich-Fine-Green, if somebody left the bungs in they havn't done any walkaround, let alone a proper one- and they ballsed up big time. But doubtful it would cause two cooked engines.
But then again, you'd be amazed at some people I'm sure. After frying one on start, they probably would think the other will be ok after a recharged battery :rolleyes:
*not saying whether or not that the cooked engines in this case were a result of a start, but its just bloody unlikely!*


Electronic trend monitoring helps sort these capers out!

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

SWING!!!!
batter batter batter.......

T28's close.

14,
3,
1.
:cool:

[morno]

It's a Proline 21 equipped C90 isn't it?

If so, I'm assuming the trend monitoring is the same as the B200's. If an overtemp had occurred, once the trend monitoring picks it up it sends the data via satellite to the US which then sends an email to the appropriate person at the operator. Happens so quickly, the operator would have known about it before the aircraft got on the ground.

How you cook 2 engines though, is beyond me. The only way would be a go-around or take off that got seriously f**ked up!

And people think turbines are fool proof..... Nearly, just so long as you don't have fool's not watching and thinking about what they're doing, :E.

morno

[megle2]

Morno
Isn't the Proline 21 trend data download an option rather than standard issue
I doubt the C90 had it but I could be wrong

[morno]

Not sure megle, I don't buy the things, I only fly them. All the one's I've flown work like that.

morno

[bankrunner]

It'd rely on the owner of the a/c caring enough about the data to pay the ongoing charges to have that happen.

[KABOY]

Looks like the next MPL's course cost has gone up. It alright though, the airline will recover the cost from their currently qualified pilots!:ugh: