Upgrade from 152 to pa28?

[Pilot.Lyons]

Hi all,

I've had a gap for 3 months and am told its best I go up with instructor so was thinking about doing differences training in pa28 warrior.

Question is: what's the actual differences ?

It would be nice to have 4 seats as our airfield doesn't have any 172/182s so it's piper or just a 2seater for me, wish I was fortunate enough to have my own plane if so it would be a 172 or 182

[A and C]

This is no big deal, as long as your skills are sharp on the C152 (up to skill test level) then the PA 28 should be no problem.

The PA28 will take a little longer to slow down than the C152 and I would recomend that you don't deploy the flaps untill about 75kt as this will avoid the aircraft pitching so you wont find yourself having to trim the aircraft twice as you slow down.

Take two or three hours to look at the flight manual and understand the W & B, and the performance settings for the engine.

If your instructor takes more than an hour in the air, says that the cruise power setting is xxxxRPM without giving an altitude or % power number, or says you dont need to lean the engine at any altitude then change him.

The key to knowing the aircraft and how to get the best out of it is to read and understand the flight manual, not to listen to half baked flying club folklore.

[Pilot.Lyons]

Funny you should say that I was taught by my schools cfi and on the 152 my power setting is 22rpm told to never bother leaning!

Can't mention school though for obvious reasons

Thanks for the tips though, so do you think it's worth while? To be honest my family don't really like it so most of the time it would be me on my own with the occasional friend coming up, I'm thinking on longer journeys it could be done a bit faster and the weight issue would be less of a concern In a pa28(I'm no stick insect) ;)

[BackPacker]

Getting checked out in a PA28 doesn't rob you from your (legal or practical) ability to fly a C152. If you school has multiple aircraft types, good for them. If you make sure you are checked out on a reasonable sample of them you'll find that you get better availability, and the ability to choose the plane for the mission.

If you don't fly a lot (say less than 25 hours a year) and don't have a lot of hours, it's best to stick to about three different types maximum though.

[Genghis the Engineer]

A thought or three:

- Read the POH
- No door on the left, so need to be more circumspect about getting pax in and out
- Double door lock, ditto
- More complex cockpit, so spend time learning around it
- Obviously different operating speeds. Don't be tempted to add anything to the POH approach speed in particular
- Does not require carb heat on approach or finals unless there's clear evidence of carb icing (which there never is)
- Read the POH
- CG varies a lot between PA28 mod states, so always do a W&CG for the specific aeroplane you're flying
- Always lean in the cruise; failure to do so pushes the fuel burn up by around 20%
- Read the POH
- Note that you have a proper alternative static, and an adjustable height pilots seat. Both missing from the C152
- Radio/intercom/navaids are usually rather more complex than the C152, so spend time learning your way around those
- Low wing, so poorer view down, much better view into turns.
- No view behind you, unlike the C152 which has a rather nice window in the rear fuselage
- Read the POH
- Performance graphs rather than tables in the manual, which will take a little while to get used to.
- Big mechanical flap lever rather than the electric switch in the C152.
- You have a yaw trimmer, which you don't have in the C152, although most people only use it in the cruise and it can be a bit fiddly.
- MUCH bigger turning circle than the C152 so can be a bit of a pain on narrow taxiways.
- Far less response to turbulence than the Cessna family, so much more comfortable in the cruise.

Oh yes, and read the POH.

G

[Pilot.Lyons]

Ok so do you think i should read the POH?
:D

Does anyone here think its worth it?

I would prob fly midlands to cornwall at furthest... So im not sure what to go with... Stick with what you know or go for the next one?

[Pace]

Pilot Lyons

Hmmm? Not leaning? not deploying flaps for fear of having to trim? One statement says the PA28 is more slippery then another dont deploy flaps which are an excellent form of drag.

All sounds a bit fly by numbers and clinical to me.

My advice get taught to lean properly and be confidenet in that process.
Learn to trim as an instinct and trim for any power or configuration change.
Use flap as required as long as you are within the limiting speeds for various stages.

There is no big deal in changing from a 152 to a PA28!

Pace

[Genghis the Engineer]

I know I sound patronising but a quick story.

Umpty ump years ago, I was a very inexperienced pilot - maybe 300 hours, and had just bought a share in a PA28. My prior flying was in smaller draggier aeroplanes by and large.

I was checked out, but had still not got my hands on the POH.

With maybe 10 hours on type I flew a longish trip into a shortish airfield, where I f****d up a landing royally and overshot the runway, causing substantial damage.

In the course of the subsequent recriminations I was there when the ground-engineer who looked after the aeroplane handed the POH over to the insurance loss assessor, proudly saying "nice and pristine, we keep it locked away so that the pilots can't mess it up".

I eventually discovered that the checkout I'd received had taught me to fly an approach about 10 knots faster than the POH recommended. So, strangely enough, I used rather a lot more runway than I'd expected from the couple of pages of performance data the rest of the syndicate had decided was appropriate to share.

I learned about reading the POH from that!

After we'd rebuilt the aeroplane, and I'd finally got hold of the POH, the other 120 hours or so I've flown in PA28s have gone very well.

G

[Pilot.Lyons]

Hi pace,

Trim of course i can trim with different flap settings no probs (someone else recommended that)

As for leaning i have done it with another instructor and am comfortable with it i was just pointing out that the cfi told me to not bother! Probably because he knew i was only going to rent one of theirs on the odd sunny day i guess? Cant answer that for sure.
I was thinking.... Anyone flown the robin? I have never even sat in it... What peoples thoughts as i could fly that instead of warrior?

[Pilot.Lyons]

Hi G,

Bloody hell thats scary!

I sometimes think instructors teach whats best for them at their field or a "safety margin" with regards to speed so it makes their time in the cockpit easier rather than preparing student pilots for real flying at different fields with different lengths and surfaces etc

[Pace]

Lyons

It is good practice even in a 152 to lean! As you advance to more complex types leaning is vital and it is a poor show by instructors who are scared students will either cut the engine or run too lean!
The same goes with using flaps or avoiding trimming ? What are these guys scared of that they don't teach properly?

Pace

[172driver]

Funny you should say that I was taught by my schools cfi and on the 152 my power setting is 22rpm told to never bother leaning!

If this is correct, then this person should have his/her instructor rating revoked immediately. Scary :yuk:

As for the PA28: read the POH! And make sure it's the POH for the a/c you will be flying. You also say you're no stick insect. If you bring a similarly built friend along, check your W&B, two big boys up front and full fuel brings many (if not all) PA28s out of C of G.

As others have already said, get your approach and landing speeds right, if you're too fast you will float down the rwy forever.

One more thing: read the POH !

[BackPacker]

Did we tell you to read the POH already?

Here's how I typically prepare my checkout on a new type.

First, flip through the POH to see what sections there are. (Should be standardized.)
Then I'm going to read the "description" sections a bit more carefully, paying particular attention to the various user-controlled systems such as electric and fuel.
Next I'm going to the performance section and run a few mock calculations, particularly the ISA, nil wind, MSL, MTOW take-off and landing performance numbers. Also useful load and expected endurance. I then compare these to similar numbers from other aircraft.
Then I'm going to break out the club-approved checklist, compare it to the checklist that's in the POH and see where/why they differ. (There may be a good and legitimate reason.)
The club-approved checklist will also contain a list of V-speeds and cruise power settings. I will compare these to the POH and if the list is somehow not complete, I update the club-approved list.

At the end of this I've got a pretty good idea about the procedures and performance characteristics of the aircraft, and I have essentially been through all sections of the POH. All that is required is go fly.

Oh, and when I'm going for the clubcheck, I tend to be an hour early so that I can walk round and sit in the aircraft at leisure, going over the checklist again, getting used to the picture outside (important for landing!) and so forth.

[RTN11]

PA28 is quite different to C152 in the feel, things are in a different place (eg trim is right down between the seats) but you shouldn't struggle. Very dosile stall, nice approach with full flap, and just about a 4 seater if you compromise on fuel.

If you bash every instructor who says set 2200 and don't lean, i think there would be a shortage overnight. For a PA28, 2300 rpm leaned is about 75% power for 2-3000' where you will spend most of your time, so instructors generally don't bother pointing out the actual % power you are using.

As for leaning, clubs are generally paranoid about overleaning with high power settings and the damage this can cause. Sure, it's fine to lean at any level but you won't see any massive benefit below 5-6000'.

You don't officially need any training if you have an SEP rating, so differences training is a bit misleading, but most clubs will require a checkout before you fly a new type and you'd be a bit stupid to just go off and fly a completely different aircraft unless you are fairly experienced.

As for locking the POH away, this is completely inexcusable. I can see why you were perhaps told to come in at 75kts. At big commercial airports you can get away with it, i've know people only use 2 flap and keep the speed up to prevent holding up commercial traffic on the ILS, or to fit more landings into a circuit session, but as soon as you apply that to somewhere with a shorter runway you're in trouble.

[Tinstaafl]

Like Backpacker I start with the manual. There can be lots of interesting 'gotchas' and you need to know them. Sometimes it's something embarassing in normal ops but also potentially life threatening such as how to operate a door from the inside, to more complicated things like the electrical/hydraulic/pressurisation/geared engine systems that must be operated correctly.

Even in simpler types there are things you need to know that the manual is there to provide. A little while ago I was replacing a leaving pilot at a dropzone using a C205. He'd been flying it for nearly a year and couldn't work out why performance wasn't very good for take off or time to altitude. It's a grass-on-sand airstrip with lots of loose sand patches so soft field method would be a good idea. Once airborne, time to altitude seemed sluggish.

First thing I did was read the manual - even though I've flown C205s years ago - where it clearly gives a soft field take off technique (nothing unusual, but it's there) and Vy for various altitudes so easy enough to interpolate to derive Vy per 1000'. I flew the aircraft and could get airborne with a greater load & get to altitude marginally faster. He'd never read the manual & was ignorant of those things.

At the same field an inexperienced pilot crashed a C182A through fuel starvation on short final. He was very, very lucky to escape with minor injuries instead of drowning in a lake in the undershoot area. A read of the manual, and particularly a study of the fuel system schematic, might have shown him the inadvisability of a highly slipped descending turn with minimal fuel on board.

I'm taking over management of a group owned C421C - and here I've been for the last few days with the manual in front me even though I've flown a C421 before and other C3xx/4xx types.


As for leaning: Lean at any & every altitude that the aircraft's power setting allows. 2000' or 20,000' makes no difference.

[BillieBob]

As for locking the POH away, this is completely inexcusable.And, come the implementation of Ops Part-NCO, illegal. The POH will become one of the mandatory documents to be carried in the aircraft (except on A to A flights not crossing the FIR boundary, etc.).

[GeeWhizz]

There are many different things with a PA28 vice C152, but they still fly the same. Ok so a teeny bit faster, and the controls feel a teeny but heavier, but they still essentially fly the same.

The 'real ' difference from a C152 to a PA28 is fuel management.

C152 = on/off simples.
PA28 = left tank, or right rank, or off; and an electric fuel pump. No both as Per C172.

Your instructor will teach what he/she thinks best with regard to leaning, approach speeds etc. And as many have said so far read the POH. Other than that you'll learn how the aeroplane acts differently in different configs, all the fun of flying a new type!

Enjoy!

[Pilot.Lyons]

Rtn11, thanks mate very constructive and total sense

[Pilot.Lyons]

Geewiz,
Thanks mate thats pretty much all i was after !
Hehe i love this forum ;)

[thing]

Hi PL I'm a low hours guy too. A little trick for the 28 you might find useful is that when you turn base and reduce power, dropping two stages of flap will give you 75-80 kts without retrimming. Make sure you're in the white arc of course

Works for me and I'm not a small person either. I fly whatever is available which could be a 152, 172 or 28. There's obviously a difference between a 152 and 28 but apart from the knobs and stuff being different and different speeds you won't find it much different at all. The 28 doesn't respond to gusts as much as a Cessna so is a more 'comfortable' ride IMO but given the choice between the three I think I prefer the 172. It's got two doors for a start and it seems to go better. The 28 is a bit pedestrian and ours is a 161. I wouldn't mind trying a 180 and see how that goes.

Edit: the 28 smells different to a Cessna. Oh I prefer the throttle arrangement on a Cessna as well, far more sensitive to me.

[GeeWhizz]

the 28 smells different to a Cessna.

Quite randomly this was the first thing I noticed when
hopping out of a Cessna back into a PA28 after several years. Nostalgic.

[Pilot.Lyons]

Hi thing,
Thanks for the advice... I need to smell one now :)
Was tenpted by te robin dr400 160 i believe it is... I know nothing about these so i have posted another thread on it and getting lits of pros over pa28 so may give that a go (after smelling a pa28 of course :rolleyes:)

[Pace]

Ok probably going to irritate a whole bunch here but the PA28 is a pretty boring spamcan.
The Robins have a lot more character. Also look at a Grumman Tiger as a fixed gear prop aircraft which gives a good turn of speed, great visibility and character if you can find one.

Pace :E

[thing]

Got to agree with you, they just about fly themselves.

[WestWind1950]

variety is the spice of life!

I can't even count how many different types of planes I flew during my first years of flying... high winged, low winged, taildraggers, 4-seaters, 2-seaters. It's in many ways better to keep to one type but not necessary. And even the same type's vary (PA28 with or without retract gear for examble).

Just be sure, when flying a type you haven't flown a while, to sit a while and review the check list thoroughly and have the POH ALWAYS handy! Most of the clubs I know make copies of it for their members, either free or a small charge...the original stays with the plane!

The Robin is a very comfortable plane which I enjoyed flying.

Get checked out in whatever aircraft is available.... and don't forget to read the POH! ;)

[A and C]

Quote:-Hmmm? Not leaning? not deploying flaps for fear of having to trim? One statement says the PA28 is more slippery then another dont deploy flaps which are an excellent form of drag.


If you had taken the time to read my post you might have understood that the recommendation was to not deploy the flaps until about 75kt, if you wait until you reduce to this speed you will find that this technique minimizes the pitch change to almost zero and avoids the pilot having to make large trim changes.

The object is to give the passengers a smooth ride with the added result of putting less strain on the airframe and spending less time with the engine fighting excessive drag.

[Pace]

A and C

You should use whatever the flap limiting speeds are for various flap settings. I have never known an aircraft where you make your own flap deployment speeds?
The Citation I fly has a flap app speed of 200 kts. Gear and full flap follow at 176 kts.
Take full flap in one go and as you said for the PA28 there is a massive amount of drag and lift.
What I do is to bleed in the remaining flap like slowly extending an airbrake! This also makes things smooth for the PAX as well as the autopilot.
I havent flown a PA28 for a long time but taking flap extension in increments would allow you to control drag while eliminating the huge pitch change you talk of.

Pace

[Piper.Classique]

Pace, I don't think a and c was suggesting making up a flap deployment speed, just saying don't drop all the flaps the moment you are down to the limiting speed. Certainly on the MS 893 I wait until the speed is well down, on a long days tugging it is a lot easier on the arm muscles, and I suspect the same could be said for a flap motor :E. Also, as you mention, on the airframe.

[A and C]

The flap limiting speed is an airframe limitation not a deployment speed, so it follows that if you deploy flaps at a lower speed than the limit you will put less load on the airframe as a whole.

I did not as any time say that the flaps should be deployed all at once, I said to delay the flap deployment until about 75kt, I did not think that anyone on this forum would interpret this to mean zero flap to full flap in one move. Quite plainly that would result in a very large pitch change, however the selction of the first stage of flap at 75kt produces next to no pitch change and minimizes the trim changes that are a result of further flap deployment.

The flap deployment schedule of the little jet that you fly has little in common with any SEP due to the high residual thrust that is the result of the fligh idle requirement of turbine engines as just shutting throttle on an SEP will have a much greater ( comparative ) effect than shutting the throttle on a jet.

The jets residual thrust is the reason that jets have speed brakes to enable the aircraft to be slowed if the ATC plot changes, It is generally considered good practice to avoid the use of speed brake as it is not good energy management practice and results in higher fuel consumption but in the real world it is difficult to fly the aircraft using only power and flap to manage the energy in a busy air traffic environment.

[Pace]

The PA28 will take a little longer to slow down than the C152 and I would recomend that you don't deploy the flaps untill about 75kt as this will avoid the aircraft pitching so you wont find yourself having to trim the aircraft twice as you slow down.


A and E

I didnt suggest or imagine you meant flying clean down to 75kts then pulling full flap all at once.
In the quote above you refer to the aircraft taking longer to slow down. Flap is one form of drag available to assist slowing down.
Hence when in a position to add that drag ie within the flap deployment speeds then use it in my book.
Going from flap approach to full flap may cause a large pitch change but you have two choices there! the first as you say to reduce the speed where full flap is taken.
The second is to take that stage of flap slowly and in increments rather than dumping it in one go as many do!
Finally I am fully aware of the characteristics of my "little jet" I have flown the type all over the world as well as Captaining the current one for the last five years.

Pace