CABAIR - General discussion for those involved. [Archive]

Rflying53

3rd Nov 2011, 15:02

]Historically, the main business of Cabair seems to have been conducted by companies owned by Cabair Holdings Ltd (CHL). In March 2009 (latest available accounts, the March 2010 accounts are overdue) the CHL Directors were Stephen Read, MC Henry, Shahriar Peyami , S Hinton-Lever and MJ Bradley Russell: the latter three were appointed in late 2008. CHL had a positive balance sheet of £5.2M but this consisted almost entirely of the cost of investments in its subsidiaries. Operating profit was £80k.

In May 2010 Flying Pictures Ltd bought 10% of CHL prior to a proposed merger which subsequently does not seem to have happened. Colin Prescot and James Hunter Smart, the CEO and Financial Director respectively of Flying Pictures Ltd were appointed as a Directors of CHL in May 2010 but resigned in October 2010.

In early 2011 three new investors were reported (by Flyer magazine) to be buying the majority of shares in CHL and a new CEO and CFO were appointed. Between December 2010 and April 2011 the entire shareholding of CHL was acquired by Cabair International Aviation Ltd, one of three companies formed immediately prior to this announcement (the others were Cabair (UK) Ltd and Cabair (Overseas) Ltd). No accounts are due to be published yet for these three companies.

Cabair International Aviation Ltd was put into administration in October 2011. The ownership of this company is not recorded as it is too recent to have submitted a return.

CHL subsidiaries are/were - Over The Pond Ltd (which seems to own 65% of the Cabair USA operations), Cabair Helicopters Ltd, World Aviation Holdings Ltd (see below) and Plane Talking Ltd. The latter appears to be an aircraft owning company, with £4.1M of fixed assets on its books at March 2010, but bank borrowings/loans totalled £3.1M and total liabilities exceeded assets by £1.1M, even when a claim of £951k for ‘defective engines’ is assumed to be an asset.

CHL also owns/owned Cabair Group Ltd (CGL). CGL in turn owns/owned Cabair Ltd, Cabair Maintenance Ltd, Cabair Flying Schools Ltd and Cabair College of Air Training Ltd. The latter three are seemingly the active trading companies in CGL. In June 2009 CGL sold European Pilot Training Academy Ltd to World Aviation Holdings Ltd (WAHL - see below) for £2 and sold 100,000 CGL deferred shares to WAHL for £100,000 (but CGL had not been paid by March 2010). CGL also owns about 10 dormant historic companies.

CHL owned World Aviation Holdings Ltd until it sold it in December 2008 for £160k, at a loss to CHL of £176k. Stephen Read, MC Henry, Shahriar Peyami and MJ Bradley Russell were shareholders and directors of WAHL at 31 March 2010. WAHL owns Wycombe Air Centre Ltd and bought 80% of Worldwide Aviation Ltd (aircraft maintenance company) for £280k during the year ended March 2009. As noted above, WAHL also acquired European Pilot Training Academy Ltd from CGL in June 2009. All the WAHL shares were acquired by Cabair International Aviation Ltd in December 2010.

Cabair Consultants Ltd and Cabair International Ltd are dormant companies.

Wee Weasley Welshman

3rd Nov 2011, 15:46

Knowing nothing about the current situation the key question for Wannabes not yet sold on a CABAIR course is; why not go elsewhere?

People will all have their own responses to that question. Those responses will determine the future for the flying school known as CABAIR.

I have no crystal ball. Perhaps I don't need one.

WWW

rmcb

3rd Nov 2011, 16:31

Presumably the replacement will be deemed a new company, subject to the rigours of the CAA approval checklist (form SRG\1175, http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1175Issue1.pdf).

What are the criteria in section 17 that is considered 'evidence for sufficient funding'? Should there be a tick box for 'previous fiduciary history' and 'moral courage'?

My heart sinks.

timeforclarity

3rd Nov 2011, 16:40

G-RICH

My understanding of the current situation is that all the other parts of Cabair that are "unnecessary" to the survival of commercial training at Cranfield have been either wound up, sold off in management buyouts or bought by the previous owners.

The situation for students isn't a bleak as you might think, that's all I'm saying for now.

rmcb

3rd Nov 2011, 16:55

That's probably what the Phoenix partnership told Nu Labour when taking over Rover, before winding up and trousering the last 11 Million squids, driving into the sunset in their - er - BMWs.

porridge

3rd Nov 2011, 20:19

Oh my God it's a train coming!:ouch:

FOUR REDS

6th Nov 2011, 12:17

I had expected to see the Phoenix rise by now.......or at least to see its 'flight plan' (perhaps even to FL 500) :hmm:

timeforclarity

6th Nov 2011, 20:40

What makes you think there isn't a plan.. and that you should be privy to it?

2 Whites 2 Reds

8th Nov 2011, 12:56

WWW....... hit the nail on the head. Why indeed not look elsewhere if you're not yet committed to them?

I feel desperately sorry for the students involved in this mess, yet again the guys and girls handing over the money for training are up for a shafting. Surely time for the CAA to become more actively involved in the regulation of FTO's?!?!?!

As a past student (who left for another FTO along with almost everyone else on my course as soon as we could after completing modular groundschool), Cabair is an absolute shower of brown smelly stuff and having seen first hand how it treats students, I'm not surprised that it's going down the pan.

Best of luck to those involved. I hope purely for your sakes that this is resolved quickly.

rogerthat777

8th Nov 2011, 14:26

@ G-RICH,

But perhaps these "Greek practices" may be of interest to those considering NuCabair in the future ? Those that do their research and come across this thread, that is.

Without turning this into a race row.

Your comments on 'Greek practices' are downright ignorant, uncalled for and frankly racist, be careful what you write and stick to the topic or this will end up a political thread.

FOUR REDS

8th Nov 2011, 18:55

Two events very recently:

1) The lady working in Marketing was, in her words, officially made redundant
today. I got this from an open FB page.

2) In the December issue of FLYER, which came out over the weekend,
there was a short article by Cabair International Ltd CEO about an
imminent (by the end of the week) resolution to the 'restructuring', with
exisiting students expected to pay between an additional £10-15k .
Bearing in mind printing and delivery times I imagine the interview was
given at the end of October. :confused:

I think this ship has sailed. nevertheless I would LOVE to be PRIVY to the info held by T.F.C and others.

G-RICH: Could not agree more! ;)

rmcb

8th Nov 2011, 21:36

I feel desperately sorry for the students involved in this mess, yet again the guys and girls handing over the money for training are up for a shafting.

Seconded here.

Surely time for the CAA to become more actively involved in the regulation of FTO's?!?!?!

Agreed.

Where else do you have the potential for a company to trouser maybe £70k+ in a short period of time without having an effective regulator peering over their shoulder? Bankers probably eye this market jealously.

Time for change.

timeforclarity

9th Nov 2011, 14:35

G-RICH's post from 21:51 is pretty accurate.

Genghis the Engineer

9th Nov 2011, 15:46

Err, Greece has run up massive national debt, and expects everybody else to foot the bill.

Surely, that is the current Greek (national) practice.

I have many greek friends and colleagues who I like and trust, but their nation is not a good neighbour right now and so the term "Greek Practices" hardly seems unreasonable.

G

Jwscud

9th Nov 2011, 19:40

The latest heard at Bournemouth today from some Cabair guys on the degree program is that they can no longer continue with the course and EPTA is finished.

hashdef

9th Nov 2011, 21:31

The Pheonix would appear to have risen. "Cabair International" Ground School resumed operation today at Cranfield. Flight School expected to be up and running next week. :D

BillieBob

10th Nov 2011, 07:57

Administrators can continue running a business while they look for a buyer for the business as a going concern.But the Authority can/will not grant FTO approval to an organisation that is in administration. If Cabair International has re-started approved training then it must be a 'going concern'.

Dofi27

10th Nov 2011, 11:28

Definitly no. I have been in front the door and I haven't seen any car parked on cabair. No people in the bulding at 11:30 am, so I suspect cabair is definitely close or in an invest period with any student/teacher.

Secret Agent Man

10th Nov 2011, 12:16

Cranfield has indeed received approvals as of yesterday for residential ground and modular flying as Cabair International.

The old management (S.R.) have nothing to do with the ongoing concern. The investor group and the staff are committed to doing right by their students, despite the doom and gloom one reads here.

porridge

10th Nov 2011, 13:06

The Instructor staff have always been committed with an excellent sense of customer care & commitment to the students, it is sad that the past “management” could never live up to the example they, the instructors, set. If the new management team want to make an unrivalled success they need to consult with their instructor team and be highly visibly with their customers being seen a the solid support behind their team. Furthermore I would suggest that the “Cabair” brand name is now too toxic, so as soon as practicable there should be a name change. A mission statement that is committed to at all levels and seen to be done, not just given lip service to, must be the key objective from the outset.
I would like to live in hope that the recent cathartic events could lead to new energy being breathed back in to the patient so it recovers more resilient and successful to become a market leader. Delivery beyond market and client expectations should be the daily goal of everyone, not just for those at the coal face. Bona fortuna

chrisbl

11th Nov 2011, 19:05

It will be interesting to see whether the new Cabair International claims to be " a global provider of pilots worldwide for over 40 years".

timeforclarity

12th Nov 2011, 19:02

thank you hashdef - your post is accurate and welcome.

secret agent man - again you are in possession of the facts.

dofi27 - you are wrong.

thank you to all those in this thread and the other large one who wished the students well.

i'd wish this thread closed now - more negative and clearly speculative posting from those not in the know isn't going to help anyone. integrated cranfield students are returning to flight school beginning monday morning.

end of story.

chrisbl

12th Nov 2011, 19:16

So when you add what integrated students paid to the old company and what they now have to pay to the new company, exactly how much will the total be for someone to complete a " Cabair " course or is that top secret and unhelpful speculation.

timeforclarity

12th Nov 2011, 19:51

If you want to ask how much a course is going to cost here is the wrong place to ask.. I don't think Cabair Sale and Marketing frequent PPRUNE.

Call them 9am Monday morning.

timeforclarity

13th Nov 2011, 15:13

G-RICH I think the opposite. The guys at Cabair are very busy right now!

...and so you know, there is no new owner. They didn't bolt out of the stable with a pot of cash, leaving all of Cabair to die. It's a lot more complicated than that. The existing investors have injected more money and their track record and the management's effort in taking care of the student liability in all this speaks volumes for their 'track record'.

The number for Cabair is available on their website. If a prospective student has the intelligence I'm sure they'll find their way there and in doing so be mindful of the BS they may hear, but also the rumours they read here!

Ask questions of the horse and get answers from the horses mouth.

rmcb

13th Nov 2011, 15:30

So students who have been asked to stump up a little extra can relax in the knowledge that the alleged £15k blackmail was purely conjecture in the warped world of PPRuNe?

Lightning Mate

13th Nov 2011, 16:21

G-RICH,

If you care to PM me I will give you my personal telephone number.

Better still, PM your personal e-mail address and I will respond with my private e-mail address.

I am a CABAIR staff member (ATPL instructor).

I cannot be more fair than that. :)

MrAverage

14th Nov 2011, 19:51

So is it all back to normal at Cranfield now?

James Darlington

15th Nov 2011, 13:30

Hi all have been following your posts on the situation at Cabair....has anyone got any further info as to whether or not it would be a safe investment, I am considering it as one of my training providers as it does seem to have a good reputation in regards to quality of training and equipment used and also its very close to where I live which is massively convenient. Many thanks :ok:

mad_jock

15th Nov 2011, 13:46

I would say it is still a possibility to go there but you would have to be stark raving mad to pay for any training up front just like all the other schools.

Also as well there are going to be quite a few schools go tits up when the new regulations come in so it would be a prudent student who waits a bit and see's what the out come is.
But saying that the cost of flying training is likely to increase when they do come in.

jmparis

15th Nov 2011, 14:20

Does anybody here have any up-to-date information about the future of Cabair at Bournemouth? I've made numerous phone calls to Cabair at both Bournemouth and Cranfield but never with any success.

mad_jock

15th Nov 2011, 15:19

There are changes to both the maintenance and the way schools are run. There will be alot more inspections and red tape bollocks such as auditing and qa and the like which is never free.

They have already sent out invoices to all schools out the blue with the option of pay up or stop training.

Genghis the Engineer

15th Nov 2011, 16:08

I did my CPL with Bonus, next door to Cabair, at Cranfield.

I have some issues with them, which I'll not air here. However, they never asked for a penny for anything up front (indeed, sometimes the time it took them to ask for money was mildly embarrassing). And they're still in business. And I passed first time. Those three things would seem significant to the likes of James Darlington.

G

jmparis

15th Nov 2011, 17:07

I have got through on the phone to both Bournemouth and Cranfield but nobody has been able to give me any up-to-date information. I have a suspicion that I have already met Lightning Mate in person but I will not disclose his true identity. As far as I know the staff at Bournemouth are still there but at this moment in time they are unable to continue training. I can only say positive things about the quality of instructing I have received so far. Hopefully Cranfield will sort things out soon.

jmparis

15th Nov 2011, 17:52

Bournemouth do send a daily email but it's been "nothing to report" since Wednesday last week. I haven't heard anything from Cranfield which is where I'm assuming any decisions will be made.

hst145

15th Nov 2011, 18:31

@ James

you have quality modular training providers on your doorstep in Denham, Cranfield, Stapleford and more ...

and in Luton itself for the ATPL theory

spread the risk lower the cost and keep the day job :ok:

jmparis

15th Nov 2011, 18:40

Genghis the Engineer

15th Nov 2011, 21:02

I know that I'm new here so I don't really want to rock the boat...... but isn't Denham part of the Cabair group? If it doesn't work out at Bournemouth does anybody have any recommendations for a modular training provider?

One school at Denham is/was part of Cabair. The rest of Denham is still functioning quite happily.

If you are already at Bournemouth, why not look at BCFT - they have a good reputation.

G

P-LOT

16th Nov 2011, 07:11

Nothing on the flying side going on at Bournemouth. I believe all their planes are still grounded owing money. No-one seems to know anything there.

jmparis

16th Nov 2011, 11:22

@Genghis
Thanks for the advice. Is there anywhere else you would recommend?

@P-LOT
Currently nothing going on at Bournemouth ground-school either.

Jwscud

16th Nov 2011, 15:10

The latest info at Bournemouth (first hand from a student on the Kingston Uni degree course) is that they have been told to take time off as the attempted restructuring is currently uninsured to teach at EPTA and they are hoping to resolve this situation and resume teaching as soon as possible. You may take that with whatever pinch of salt suits you.

Genghis the Engineer

16th Nov 2011, 15:20

@Genghis
Thanks for the advice. Is there anywhere else you would recommend?

Not many people get to fly with multiple schools for commercial, so few people will give you multiple recommendations.

That said, try Wycombe Air Centre. They've always impressed me when I've passed through, and I have done a few training hours with them.

G

jmparis

16th Nov 2011, 15:44

@Genghis
Thanks again for the advice. I might be getting my facts wrong but isn't Wycombe Air Centre part of the Cabair group?

flight beyond sight

16th Nov 2011, 16:17

No they are no longer part of the Cab Air group and are a very professionally run company

jmparis

16th Nov 2011, 16:24

@flight beyond sight
That's good to hear. Do you know if they now do the ATPL theory in-house? The information on the website is out-of-date and states that it takes place at Cabair Bournemouth.

Genghis the Engineer

16th Nov 2011, 16:41

@flight beyond sight
That's good to hear. Do you know if they now do the ATPL theory in-house? The information on the website is out-of-date and states that it takes place at Cabair Bournemouth.

Most people separate theory and flying - go to somewhere like CATS or Bristol Groundschool for your groundschool, then pick your flying school for that.

G

jmparis

16th Nov 2011, 16:59

@Genghis
Thanks again for the advice.

porridge

16th Nov 2011, 17:45

jmparis
From an earlier post it would appear there is some involvement with WAC & CABAIR:
CHL owned World Aviation Holdings Ltd until it sold it in December 2008 for £160k, at a loss to CHL of £176k. Stephen Read, MC Henry, Shahriar Peyami and MJ Bradley Russell were shareholders and directors of WAHL at 31 March 2010. WAHL owns Wycombe Air Centre Ltd and bought 80% of Worldwide Aviation Ltd (aircraft maintenance company) for £280k during the year ended March 2009.
Messrs Read & Henry have been with Cabair since time immemorial. Shari Peyami is the MD at WAC.
Can't comment, this is just for the record

Genghis the Engineer

17th Nov 2011, 09:39

Unless things have changed recently, my understanding was that the majority shareholder in WAC became some variant of Cabair circa 2006ish, with Shari Peyami - already MD, staying in post with a significant minority shareholding in WAC himself. I don't know what SP's engagement with the rest of Cabair has been - but there must have been some.

However, WAC has always continued to be run as a separate and largely independent business from the rest of Cabair, and it's always been profitable. Offering my best guess, the receivers/administrators would be daft to let this successful business get dragged down by the rest of Cabair and are leaving it well alone, presumably that majority holding being the most valuable saleable asset remaining within the group.

What does surprise me is that there's been no talk of using WAC to finish off the existing Cabair students - even if they would be moved from Integrated to Module, it surely would be possible. Then again, maybe that talk's happened, just not made it outside of Cabair.

Regardless, and with the usual caveat of "don't pay up front what you can't afford to lose", I'd still regard WAC as a good place to train.

G

jmparis

17th Nov 2011, 11:55

@Genghis
I know for a fact that Cabair are holding meetings today so I'm hoping to hear more information afterwards.

Genghis the Engineer

17th Nov 2011, 12:11

@Genghis
I know for a fact that Cabair are holding meetings today so I'm hoping to hear more information afterwards.

Given the circumstances, I'd be surprised if they're not holding meetings most days!

G

jmparis

17th Nov 2011, 12:15

@Genghis
One of the meetings today is with the university students from Bournemouth so I should have more information afterwards.

Matt7504

17th Nov 2011, 16:46

Cabair still partly operate from WAC I believe, well at least there is advertising for Cabair there. I am a university student who is currently learning to fly there at the moment. I can only say good things about the centre so far, great instructors and a well maintained fleet.

chrisaviator

18th Nov 2011, 09:01

Not sure how this works, however, I have tried to transfer my money from EPTA in Bournemouth to Cabair Cranfield as they are up and running now. This was, and still is impossible as Cranfield is now Cabair UK and is an entirely new company. So they have offered to help so long as I pay some more...lol...which is not going to happen.

So the question I pose to everyone is how can the old Cabair close, then re-open as new Cabair and till claim to have all the history... please see the below quotes from there new website....

(From a take off nearly four decades ago Cabair are now one of the largest companies operating in the commercial pilot training sector worldwide. and further down....As a major supplier of quality First Officers and future commanders to international airlines, our customers have included British Airways, Flybe, Ryanair, Air India, Kuwait Airways, Royal Brunei Airlines and many others of a similar stature)

As they are a new company surley they have not actually trained anyone yet let alone for any airline mentioned above and how can the be the biggest with only one little school in Cranfield?....surely this is fraud!

It would seem that Cabair Cranfield has escaped scott free and I seem to be one of the many who have paid for this!

They seem to have offered a deal to the Integrated students to continue training and yet have offered me nothing more than what any other flight school has offered me....so NEW CABAIR WHAT DOES EVERYONE THINK NOW?

mad_jock

18th Nov 2011, 09:13

I suggest you put all these points to

ASA - Advertising Standards Authority (http://www.asa.org.uk/)

Its quite a simple process and minimal input apart from the intial complaint by yourself.

rmcb

18th Nov 2011, 09:34

Going to the ASA is the first port of call, although it sounds lilke this is an 'internal' arrangement and not, strictly speaking, an 'advertised' product.

More importantly, I feel, is to check with the CAA that they have given this transfer of training to another provider their blessing. I say this only because the management of the new company, having no connection with the old (?), surely must be liable for fiduciary exchange and the terms thereafter maintained should reflect this.

Of course, this could then justify their alleged £15000 administration fee.

Genghis the Engineer

18th Nov 2011, 16:04

There's certainly something happening at EGTC. Driving past this morning - lights in some of the buildings and people in Cabair logoed clothing walking around.

I didn't see any of their aeroplanes doing anything however.

I know no more than that, but at least it's some sign of life.

G

chrisaviator

18th Nov 2011, 19:13

Cabair UK at Cranfield is deff up and running. I know one ground school student back in ground training there and he has been there since last week Wednesday.

This seems to be the fold and re-open Cabair UK!

Rigger92

19th Nov 2011, 11:28

I have heard Cabair callsigns all week when on EGTC so they are defo operating. It sounds like good news for their current students. I just hope the new management does their job right!

chrisaviator

19th Nov 2011, 14:55

Good news for Cabair Cranfield Students, but still bad news for Cabair Bournemouth and Wycombe students who have been left with no money and no training....lets hope that something goods happens for us too.

porridge

19th Nov 2011, 18:38

Hi G-RICH, I know someone who is affected by this, kindly PM me the FTO you recommend for the "pay as you go" offer. Thanks, P

Genghis the Engineer

19th Nov 2011, 19:50

Surely there should be no effect to Wycombe students regardless? They are with WAC whose business and approvals haven't, so far as I can tell, been effected in any way?

G

Genghis the Engineer

19th Nov 2011, 20:17

Hi G-RICH, I know someone who is affected by this, kindly PM me the FTO you recommend for the "pay as you go" offer. Thanks, P

I can only assume that you are one of the people who got sucked into "Integrated".

All FTOs, bar the handful who do modular-only, offer pay-as-you go.

G

chrisaviator

19th Nov 2011, 22:46

EPTA required you to pay up front for the section of your course undertaken, so you paid in full for the CPL, then multi and finally the IR and got a discount....that's how some students have lost money. So guess the moral of the story is don't pay up front even if they offer you a discount....lesson learnt.

The Old Fat One

20th Nov 2011, 16:00

So the question I pose to everyone is how can the old Cabair close, then re-open as new Cabair and till claim to have all the history... please see the below quotes from there new website....

(From a take off nearly four decades ago Cabair are now one of the largest companies operating in the commercial pilot training sector worldwide. and further down....As a major supplier of quality First Officers and future commanders to international airlines, our customers have included British Airways, Flybe, Ryanair, Air India, Kuwait Airways, Royal Brunei Airlines and many others of a similar stature)

As they are a new company surley they have not actually trained anyone yet let alone for any airline mentioned above and how can the be the biggest with only one little school in Cranfield?....surely this is fraud!

I don't know the specifics of how this business has traded itself, but if it is indeed a new company (as in newly registered) and it is claiming an old (now defunct) company's trading history in its marketing material, then it is quite likely breaking the law in the UK. I would advise Trading Standards as the first port of call as they don't mess about...get on the wrong side of them and they will shut you down!

However, the ASA would also be good bet, especially as new standards for online advertising came intro force in the UK in March of this year.

As a matter of interest, this exact thing happened when a Midlands Flying School went broke a couple or years back...and I'm fairly sure, following a Pprune discussion, the offending web page disappeared...at least temporarily.

PPRuNeUser0173

20th Nov 2011, 21:24

Just been texted the EPTA building has been repossessed and the locks have been changed. Oh dear.

Ivan Taclue

21st Nov 2011, 06:20

On 8 November a deal was concluded, for which negotiations started on 16 September (sic!), the so-called pre-packaged sale.

The following is from a letter to creditors by the Administrators:

"The initial consideration was split as follows:
Stock, funiture and simulators in Cranfield £240,000 of which £40,000 is to be uitilised to discharge the finance outstanding on two of the sims.

Intellectual property £34,000
Goodwill £7 !!!!!!!
Business Names £ 4,200 !!!!!!
the shares in CIUK £ 88
supplier contracts £42
prepay liabilities £1 !!!!!!!!
Company Records £862

In addition to the above, there is provided within the sale agreement for additional consideration in respect of goodwill to be paid in October or November 2013 which is dependant upon the number of students who have paid the instalments in respect of an integrated course. A maximum of £108,000 additional consideration may be payable."

Bold lettering and exclamation marks are mine. :suspect:

jmparis

21st Nov 2011, 13:04

@Golfdriver
I received the same information in an email from EPTA.

Genghis the Engineer

21st Nov 2011, 13:24

I don't see what intellectual property they have. They use ProPilot manuals for groundschool. Perhaps the flying training manuals / approvals etc ?

Any aviation company has a lot of material which took much took much expensive time to put together.

Think of the time it takes to put together a FOB, manuals for any AOC operations, student handbook, company aircraft manuals and checklists, company W&CG sheets, staff handbook, student record sheets... - it all adds up and if you can take all of that from somewhere else and implement it within minimal modification then a great deal of time, and thus money, can be saved.

Given that £34k is maybe half a man-year of total employment costs of a middle-ranking aviation grown-up, this may be fairly cheap.

G

Ivan Taclue

21st Nov 2011, 14:05

The letter referred to is 8 pages long and clearly cannot be copied here in its entirety.

What I find interesting is that meetings between various solicitors (NatWest, CIAL, CIUK) and the Proposed Administrators started already on 16 September and that this pre-packaged deal was on the table before the place stopped operating on 29 September AND the staff were not (and still have not been) paid for September.

Remember that the Court appointed the above Administrators on October 20th as a result of a non-payment claims by Mr. S. Read and some outstanding debentures from other companies in the Cabair Group.

What is the format for proposed administrators becoming appointees for the Court?

All told it smells of Capt. Birdseye :hmm:

Avatar73

21st Nov 2011, 17:56

Ok, I've read through most of this but I'm not 100% clear.

How is EPTA distance learning groundschool affected by all this?

It seems maybe it's all gone down the pan.

Anyway, I paid £895 for their whole distance learning program, but before going on any revision weeks or taking any exams got offered a job at a different location with all training included, along with ATPL exams.

So I'm trying to get a refund on that... will I have any joy? :}

Lightning Mate

21st Nov 2011, 18:33

Yes - but only if you paid via a credit card.

Many apologies.

A CABAIR instructor..........

maximus1982

22nd Nov 2011, 09:01

Hi, yes it's a very sad time for all those involved, flight training is very expensive as it is without loosing money also.

Avatar73

22nd Nov 2011, 16:19

Hmm, therein lies the problem. They were charging a fee to pay by credit card, and never in a million years did I think they'd go bankrupt, so I paid by free bank transfer. Ah well, its not that much in the big scheme of things.

NO TXT SPK THNX
HWB

huh? where did all the rest of my post go? it was in as much good english as the above. well little point in staying here if moderators are that cavalier. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad:

Flying Farmer

22nd Nov 2011, 18:04

If Colin Green is still involved with EPTA and happens to be reading in, I'm watching with interest !

One day Colin you might be held accountable for various things, this is the second company you are employed by/involved with, in the last 10 years to go tits up?

What goes round comes round fella, enjoy your xmas cnut

chrisaviator

22nd Nov 2011, 18:31

EPTA may continue, or may continue under a different name which is more likely, however, I very much doubt that I will ever seem my cash or training again....

Seems like another fast trick by some very squirmy executives...

Watch this space.

waco

22nd Nov 2011, 21:37

bmi are in the process of going.

I will be very surprised if Monarch are still going in two years time.

TCX are reducing fleet size by 6. I bet that number doubles in the next year and thats a BEST case situation!).

Europe remains on the brink of an economic disaster that could yet make the 1930's look good.....and people are still spending money on flight training .

Got to be barking !

mad_jock

22nd Nov 2011, 22:07

you forgot Thompson

And on another thread someone mentioned that BA were maybe thinking about putting a hold on the cadet thing after this round.

chrisbl

22nd Nov 2011, 22:23

The new Cabair has to find about £280,000 for the assets and a sizable amount more to fund the working capital.

That can come from a number of sources, shareholders putting their money at risk in the form of shares, shareholders lending the new company money, less risky, loans from financiers and last of all deposits and upfront payments by students, the chapest form of borrowing and with the least risk for the company.

With the exception of student upfront payments, the other sources of funding are expensive, and with the track record of this bit of aviation probably carries a substantial risk premuim built into the interest rates. The satisfactory servicing of this debt is vital and when it cannot happen then the pack of cards collapses. The cost of servicing this debt is paid ultimately by the customers (students).

(You can see why getting students to pay up front looks attractive and why a "discount" is offered to make people think they are getting a bargain.)

The problem with a business such as this is that its difficult to control costs. If they own and operate their own kit, then they take the risk, if they dont, then they are subject to others not letting them down. If you are in a strong position then you have more clout, if not then you have to take what you get.

Anyone who deals with the new Cabair will remember what they lost with the old Cabair and try and recover some of that. Who pays for that, the students in the end.

Some musings, thats all.

rmcb

22nd Nov 2011, 22:49

The problem with a business such as this is that its difficult to control costs

This whole industry is based on paying forward - the present students will always be covering the costs incurred by the previous generation (if you're lucky!). If you are going to attract new students with competitive prices, you are going to run with insufficient margins. Eventually you will go bust.

All of us who have been suckered into an FTO for going the cheapest route (understandable) are to blame for this. This is why the CAA needs to be an arbiter and regulator of these organisations and provide a structured payment system with safeguards. After all, we can only train at establishments with their blessing.

The obvious conclusion, I believe, is that flight training is too cheap. Sometimes cheap is expensive!

Contentious, eh?

FOUR REDS

23rd Nov 2011, 04:53

chrisbl and mcb

I like your posts. :ok:

chrisbl

23rd Nov 2011, 09:01

I have heard that what finally sent Cabair under was a winding up order for about £40,000 from a company called "Abraxas Aviation", for "consultancy services"

And you can see who the company director of Abraxas was! (The man who was escorted from the buiding at Elstree and did very well out of the whole deal.)

Stephen John Read - Who runs it? (http://www.whorunsit.org/appointees/00289733)

You couldn't make it up...

He has been involved with Abraxas since 1992 so I suspect that rather than being on the regular payroll, he gets paid consultancy fees into his company and then either pays himself a salary from that or a dividend.
There is nothing wrong with that and it happens all the time. I suspect a lot of freelance pilots operate that way.

I presume once he fell out with them he wanted paying for what was owed, it probably was a valid claim otherwise Cabair would have fought it but for the fact that they were out of cash.

Sometimes you can read too much into things and go off on the wrong track. It does not excuse the fact that Cabair was shaky and making unrealistic claims up to the end. If a £40k debt pushed them over the edge, then they were well short of having a well financed model.

Once one creditor scents blood they all come out, credit is restricted, aircraft chained up until fuel bills are paid, students sent on "study leave" etc etc all with the impact that has on the image and reputation of the organisation.

The problem with wannabe pilots is that they are blind to all of this, they see only the uniforms, the gold bars, listen to sales pitch (polite reference to what comes out of a bull's bum) have the dream of being in the right hand seat of an A320 in 2 years and all that and stump up £70k. The parents are just as bad for not doing a proper due diligence as well. You would not buy a property without proper survey, why make such an investment without proper research.

What really irritates me about this training market is the economy with the truth and the misleading use of statistics. The greatest demand for pilots is in the Far East where being Indian, Indonesian or Chinese counts. Using global numbers and using that as a sales pitch to flog EU training is just rubbish unless of course you are Indian, Indonesian and Chinese.

I cannot believe that people are seriously considering Cabair, and I feel sorry for some of the excellent training staff there.

An old Chinese proverb goes something like this: a good predictor of the future is usually the past.

How often do we see history repeat itself?

Just my 2p worth.

Groundloop

23rd Nov 2011, 09:24

you forgot Thompson

How can so many people keep getting this wrong?

THOMSON - no P!

rmcb

23rd Nov 2011, 12:37

So... is anyone attending Cabair International's 'Gatwick Airline Pilot Roadshow' this saturday? Entry is free - what have you got to lose?:hmm:

Cabair International Aviation Seminars (http://www.cabairseminars.com/sem_signup.php?sem_id=57)

rmcb

23rd Nov 2011, 13:32

In fairness, all they missed out was the question mark at the end...

chrisaviator

23rd Nov 2011, 14:23

Great intensive for all the new student there to get a taste of what they are like before they put any money down....

On the plus side you can't believe the SH1TE sales ploy they gave me and another chap on the course about how they are still the same company, but that we still need to give them more money as ours had been lost....funny as anything....my sides hurt so much because they are clearly so stupid that they think that they can make a fool of me twice....

Come on Cabair...let me introduce myself to your prospective students, let me tell them exactly what you are like and how actuate your lying website is....

smith

24th Nov 2011, 09:11

So... is anyone attending Cabair International's 'Gatwick Airline Pilot Roadshow' this saturday? Entry is free - what have you got to lose?

Cabair International Aviation Seminars

I believe they will be offering some great "pay up front" discounts on Saturday if you pay it all on the day. I'm in.

rmcb

24th Nov 2011, 14:48

Many companies have the opposite problem where they go under because customers have not paid them so why does aviation have these problems ? Is it just very tempting to raid a cash pile to prop things up in the hope that they will get better.

I believe you will find that the fee up front ploy is used to get a big injection of lucre into the coffers to pay for the costs that weren't paid maybe a year before. This is why this type of company, I am sure, would disregard the escrow option. They aren't after guarantees - they are after the cash here, now, fuel bills to pay etc.

It is usually caused by needing to undercut the opposition to get the business; eventually you undercut so much that your margin is nil. Then the directors raid the assets, declare the entity bankrupt and start the same company the next day with no liabilities and a massive startup bung from the Westminster idiots.

Cheap can be expensive - we (the prospective clients) are responsible for this. Chances are you will be OK, but someone always ends up at the end point broke. Look at any Ponzi scheme and you will see the similarities.

I'm in the wrong game...

It would be better to take the opportunity to cut numbers down to say a maximum of two Intergrated providers and a sustainable maximum for Modular, so long as schools agree to adhere to an agreed Scheme of Charges in return and student funds are placed in an escrow account managed by the CAA.

You'd think so; I refer, of course to my post in this thread: http://www.pprune.org/6787712-post10.html

rmcb

24th Nov 2011, 22:41

Anyone from an FTO care to comment on the hoops the CAA put in their way to reassure them as to their propriety with 'banked' money? Anyone with knowledge of the CAA care to comment?

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1175Issue1.pdf (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1175Issue1.pdf)

BillieBob

24th Nov 2011, 23:02

The responsibilty of the CAA in respect of financial viability is limited to ensuring compliance with Paragraph 9 of Appendix 1a to JAR-FCL 1.055 (i.e. A FTO shall satisfy the Authority that sufficient funding is available to conduct training to the approved standards (see IEM No. 2 to JAR–FCL 1.055)). Provided that a snapshot of the FTO's finances at the time of approval (or re-approval) shows that sufficient funding is (or is likely to be) available, the approval will be issued (or renewed). Thereafter, any issues arising between the FTO and its 'customers' are a matter for Trading Standards and not the CAA.

Of course, this depends upon the CAA conducting a full financial evaluation (in accordance with IEM No.2 to JAR-FCL 1.055) of each FTO at each approval and/or re-approval. If this has not been done and the Authority has, for example, simply accepted a statement from the accountants that the company is a 'going concern' then there might be a case for judicial review.

FANS

25th Nov 2011, 04:09

With the exception of those on a tagged Flybe scheme, why on earth would you have started an integrated flying scheme in the last 0 -18 months?

I can understand wealthy individuals doing the CTC wings scheme, and potentially getting a zero hour contract with EZY.

I can't however understand people doing integrated, untagged with Cabair in the current climate. What job did you seriously expect at the end?

That's not to excuse what's happed at Cabair, which seems to work on the pay us now, and we'll try not to go bust before we finish the training that we owe you. These companies should have proper bonds in places or escrow accounts.

rmcb

25th Nov 2011, 06:09

Thankyou for that, BillieBob.

Rflying53

25th Nov 2011, 09:40

The (unaudited) accounts for Abraxas Aviation Ltd for y/e June 2010 show its liabiliites exceeded its assets at that point by £112k. The accounts were signed in February 2011, just after the 3 new shareholders/investors had put their money into 'old' Cabair Holdings Ltd. The fact that Cabair was in trouble and publicly talking about closing parts of the business by mid-2011 will be exercising the lawyers for both the old and new shareholders and management.

Think about why the Flying Pictures CEO and FD pull out of the management of Cabair in October 2010, less than 6 months after getting involved. Ultimately rmcb is right - flying training is too cheap: it's almost impossible to make a sustainable profit in the UK. How many hedge funds and venture capitalists are clamouring to invest in the industry?

The good news is that the lawyers will do well out of this whole sad tale. Career suggestion - wannabes should spend their money on training as lawyers rather than pilots.

porridge

26th Nov 2011, 18:47

Did anyone go to this? If so what was the attendance like?
"One born every minute" (or perhaps 10 when it comes to Aviation!)

directvector

28th Nov 2011, 08:43

You can always rely on wikipedia!!!!

Cabair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabair)

I'm a particular fan of the extended use of past tense in this article!!!!

rmcb

28th Nov 2011, 13:08

limilted space available

This, I fear, relates to the one Portacabin left in their ownership (ex-greasy spoon on the layby just outside Cranfield).

The Saw

28th Nov 2011, 18:06

The rules for a prospective pilot should always be adhered to

1) Pay by credit card (and try to avoid any surcharge for doing so)

2) If you have cash, pay the cash into your credit card account and revert to 1)

3) If you have a bank overdraft and chequebook to spend it, read 2) and write chq to CC company then revert to 1)

This way you are protected if and when they go bust as I'm afraid others will do so this winter then you can get the card co to give it you back

waco

28th Nov 2011, 18:12

Rule 1.....dont even think about it.

Rule 2.....see rule 1.

Dofi27

5th Dec 2011, 10:22

Its not so estrange. Ig I have q company and the last 2 months the things was wrong I would never mentioned this things if I would like start again with the news investors. Otherwise I can get more students on the different assestments around the country but sincerely I think this is not the best way, I think the best way is change location, planes, Name of the company and get a own mantainance because after I have been on uk I ve seen on uk plane has a very bad mantainance (like an africans)

smith

5th Dec 2011, 10:46

The Saw

I always paid cash, full course price, up front. Always worked for me and I managed to get some greta discounts for my trouble :ok:

FOUR REDS

5th Dec 2011, 15:09

Met a current student last week. He carried 3 stripes, so he obviously had passed stage 3 (I believe they call it PT3 there). He was about to start on the twin, followed by IR routes and then the 170A. This guy had paid an extra £6K to complete the course and said this still worked out cheaper than Oxford.

He also mentioned that the MCC course is now done on a B737 sim near Gatwick (?) and I wonder whether FL500 have an input in this.

chrisaviator

7th Dec 2011, 09:41

Well, lets not forget that the old Cabair had shares in Woldwide Holdings. When they went under, they also pulled other companies under with them. (Cabair) EPTA in Bournemouth has now ceased trading as a result and has gone into adminstration. Yes I filled out the form Monday this week to try get some money back....but really do not think that I will!

EPTA will not be reopening as far as I am aware. Shame as the ground school was amazing....

So Cabair has turned out to be a very costly exercise for me and I wish that I had gone else where for my flight training. But There we go....one just has to move forward and try again...lesson is, don't pay up front for any course unless you have some sort of insurance.

I personally would steer well clear of Cabair Cranfield as I don't think that they will be around too long....lets face it, if they have messed things up once, they will do it again as the managers have already proven that they can't do their jobs properly.

Also there is underlying deceit - Check the website, no mention of the problems, and claims to have a long and positive history.....all bullsh*t of course....lol

mad_jock

7th Dec 2011, 10:10

Chris I hope you have complained to the advertising standrads about the web site.

Unless you do they will continue to put out that rubbish.

rmcb

7th Dec 2011, 10:54

28th January 2012, 0930 hrs.

Cranfield Seminar - book while you can, seats going fast.

Integrated Initial Assessment (http://www.cabair.com/integrated/assessment.htm)

Don't forget your chequebooks - deal available for that day only... that's what my independent financial advisor said to me 15 years ago when I was duped into a pension scheme. Now worth 40% of total contribution over time. Thankfully, he is not homeless but can only extend his Fulham mews house upwards. He is not rich enough to move to Buckinghamshire.

Has anyone heard anything about this bunch from the CAA? Any health warnings? Anything you would expect a conscientious regulator might feel is in their remit to contain?

rmcb

7th Dec 2011, 11:02

My mistake - if you go to that link I gave earlier, the 'What would be your ideal course start date?' filter only offers 2011 dates.

Bummer.

You have all missed the opportunity to pay into the Cabair widows' and orphans' fund. And the opportunity to increase it by £6000 because you are so happy with its previous performance.

gpn01

7th Dec 2011, 20:09

There's a legal requirement (Companies Act 2006) that a company's website should include details about its company registration number and registered office. Can't find these on Cabair International Aviation (http://www.cabair.com/index.html). The absence of such basic information makes it difficult to check the credentials of any organisation that you're considering undertaking business with.

rmcb

7th Dec 2011, 22:45

gpn01 - good point, whois search on cabair.com reveals:

Registrant:
The Cabair Group Ltd
Elstree Aerodrome
Borehamwood
.
HERTS, . WD6 3AW
UK

Domain name: CABAIR.COM

Administrative Contact:
Mullen, Adrian
Elstree Aerodrome
Elstree
BOREHAMWOOD, WD6 3AW
GB

Judging from business acumen previously demonstrated this is probably an administrative oversight. There is a lacking in guile with these jokers.

However, bear in mind the Companies Act 2006 was amended by Blair's cretins so it is bound to be flawed. The same crowd that made the CAA a monopolistic agency.

gpn01

8th Dec 2011, 13:12

gpn01 - good point, whois search on cabair.com reveals:

Registrant:
The Cabair Group Ltd
Elstree Aerodrome
Borehamwood
.
HERTS, . WD6 3AW
UK

Domain name: CABAIR.COM

.

Which goes to show why company information should be clearly shown on a website as "The Cabair Group Ltd" is a different registered company from "Cabair International Aviation Ltd" which is, in turn, a seperate legal entity from the various other "Cabair" registerd companies.

FOUR REDS

8th Dec 2011, 14:33

which is different from CABAIR INTERNATIONAL (UK) LIMITED, the current provider of integrated training at Cranfield........

zondaracer

8th Dec 2011, 15:36

A young guy who recently went to one of their roadshows said that Cabair was really pushing the integrated course to the time of £80,000 up front. They barely made any reference to modular training (and they definitely didn't mention the cost of modular).

goldenman

9th Dec 2011, 02:33

Sure, they all need cash.

Guys, are you naive or born in a me me me world.

All they want is money they are business not a flying club.

neilgeddes

16th Dec 2011, 07:45

Cabair News (http://www.cabair.com/news/index.htm)

No word of the PPL schools!

Groundloop

16th Dec 2011, 08:00

All of the PPL schools were all marked for sale/closure before the summer.

notlikethat

16th Dec 2011, 08:18

I have been informed that Aviation Career Associates Ltd. is expected to be liquididated. At present there is a proposal to strike this company off the company register. This action has been suspended untill June 2012 so hopefully receivers will be apointed and staff will be able to make a claim for salaries owed under the goverment scheme.

The Ace Pilot

16th Dec 2011, 08:50

The story Cabair have published is a careful choice of words. It ignores the fact that Cabair International Aviation Ltd was already in administration by the time CCAT was placed in administration and that several other Cabair companies have been placed in administration.

It mentions modular but nothing about it's Wycombe operation or Bournemouth. Do we assume this means the only thing to be saved is the business that was CCAT?

smarthawke

16th Dec 2011, 19:49

Wycombe Air Centre is now completely removed from any association with Cabair.

Earlier this week, it was taken over by Arora Family Trust - the parent company of Wycombe Air Park (and Airways Flying Club) operator, Airways Aero Associations Ltd.

I believe the plan will be for WAC to look after commercial training and AFC to do the PPL/hire side of things.

Press release:

Changes in the air at Wycombe Air Park

More good news in these austere times. The previously family-owned FTO called Wycombe Air Centre (WAC), which has latterly been part of the Cabair group, has been rescued by Surinder Arora, whose Family Trust is owner of the airfield operator, Airways Aero Associations (AAA).

The combination of Wycombe Air Centre’s commercial flight training programmes with AAA’s 63 years old Airways Flying Club private flying and training activities will create a formidable force to be reckoned with. The engineering expertise of the two companies will remain in place, delivering services for Cessna, Piper, Beechcraft, de Havilland and Tecnam.

The acquisition of Wycombe Air Centre with its access to the experience and aircraft fleet of AAA, will hopefully allow an increase in commercial pilot training at the airfield. The Airways Flying Club’s well known rallies, outings and social activities will now also have a larger clientele.

A new company name will soon appear on people’s lips, too. Booker Aircraft Operations Limited will be the umbrella under which the various flying disciplines, the aircraft operations and the engineering will be run. Fortunately, for both Club members and commercial customers, links with such long histories will not disappear as the names of Wycombe Air Centre and Airways Flying Club will not change.

AAA reports that it is business as usual with all other Wycombe Air Park activities with both Air Traffic Control and Rescue & Fire-fighting facilities in particular remaining in place.

gpn01

29th Dec 2011, 11:45

smarthawke

29th Dec 2011, 19:59

My understanding (and I'm not privvy to all information or knowledge of things and businesses financial) is that Arora took over Wycombe Air Centre as was after it had gone into administration.

I believe the plan is still that the Wycombe Air Centre name may well live on in name only as the provider of fixed wing commercial flight training at Wycombe Air Park whilst Airways Flying Club will look after all the PPL and private hire side of things.

From what I've seen in the past is that websites aren't necessarily kept up to date when these things happen. Commercial training should resume as soon as the approvals are in place.

felixflyer

1st Jan 2012, 20:51

Does anyone know when Airways are likely to be up and running with the CPL/IR training? I am looking to start this asap and they would be local to me. I also have experience on the P2006T and really enjoy flying it.

Is it likely to take a long time to get approvals etc. up and running or will they be keeping a lot of it from WAC and just changing the name?

Genghis the Engineer

1st Jan 2012, 21:11

WAC have always done CPL & IR; having been at Booker a few times over the last week, they still seem to be operating. If they stick with the same team and general ethos, I think that you could do far worse.

If I were you, I'd go and talk to them as soon as it's convenient to you - just follow the oft repeated "don't pay up front" rule.

G

FOUR REDS

22nd Jan 2012, 08:53

4 integrated students caught up in this mess recently passed their IRTs and will finish their MCC today (with JOC still to follow). Well done them!

However, just before Christmas one very senior instructor abandoned ship and moved in the direction of Kidlington (sic!). Obviously it still is not a totally happy ship.

As this thread has been quiet, is there anyone with further info of interest?

smarthawke

4th Feb 2012, 20:30

To bring things at Wycombe Air Park up to date, may I post the following press release in the name of providing facts and current information (not intended in any way to be advertising, mods):

Although flying continued under the Airways Flying Club approvals without a break, a new set of approvals (under the new company name Booker Aircraft Operations Ltd) were granted by CAA in the first week of January 2012.

The new company (trading as both Airways Flying Club and as Wycombe Air Centre) now runs the whole gambit of Private and Commercial courses (see list below).

The expertise contained within and the experience gained by AFC’s 64 years and WAC’s 44 years counts for a great deal. With highly-qualified career instructors and with 7 CAA Examiners within the staff, not only is the CAA happy but so are the customers who have not left, but on the contrary are appearing in their droves.

The combined engineering department now has 8 engineers and looks after over 70 aircraft.

Commercial Flying Courses will be run under the WAC banner and the exclusive Airways Flying Club will continue all of the Private Flying training and self-fly hire.

The combined aircraft fleet (see below) is not exclusive for either Commercial or Private flyers.... all are available for any course (within reason!) or for self-fly hire.

The one-stop shop for all of the courses is now based under the Control Tower, from where the Airfield Operations continues to be run.

Websites will be amalgamated very shortly, but are found at:

Learn to Fly - Airways Flying Club (http://www.airwaysflyingclub.co.uk)
WYCOMBE AIR CENTRE (http://www.wycombeaircentre.co.uk)
Wycombe Air Park - EGTB | Fly at historic Booker Airfield in High Wycombe Buckinghamshire (http://www.wycombeairpark.co.uk)
Tecnam UK (http://www.tecnamuk.com)

The Aircraft Fleet now comprises

6 Cessna 152
1 Cessna 172 (glass)
5 Piper Warrior
1 Tecnam P2002 single
1 Piper Dakota (glass)
1 Piper Arrow
1 deHavilland Chipmunk
2 Beechcraft Duchess
1 Tecnam P2006T twin (glass)

Private Flying and self-fly hire:

JAR /EASA PPL
NPPL
Night Qualification
IMC Rating
PPL Instrument Rating
Multi-engine Piston Rating
Flying Instructor Courses (Single / Multi / Night / Instrument)
Flight Examiner Courses
Tailwheel conversion
Aerobatics courses
Complex SEP conversion
Glass cockpit transition

Commercial Flying:

Modular CPL
Instrument Rating

Simulators:

FNPT 2 and FNPT 1
for IR revalidations
CPL and IR Military conversions
CPL and IR conversions

keith williams

5th Feb 2012, 13:06

That really is excellent news Smarthawke.

Can we expect a similar announcement regarding EPTA any time soon?

After all, at the time of the CABAIR crash, WAC was the owner of EPTA and the WAC management team were running EPTA.

Or are the losses suffered by the EPTA students, staff and suppliers, viewed as an acceptable price to pay for the resurrection of WAC?

smarthawke

5th Feb 2012, 13:38

I don't profess to understand who owned what, belonged to who, who was a director of what when it comes to the former Cabair group of companies - even after reading the previous very detailed posts). That said, I think you'll find that WAC never 'owned' or 'ran' EPTA though they may have been part of the same group (Worldwide?).

I can only comment on where we are at Wycombe Air Park, as detailed in the two press releases. The basics are that Wycombe Air Centre Ltd was rescued from the administrators by the Arora Family Trust, as a single 'entity' - and that did not include any other part of what was previously under the somewhat broad umbrella of Cabair.

Certainly there is now no connection between the fixed wing flying training organisations at Wycombe Air Park (Airways Flying Club and Wycombe Air Centre - both part of Booker Aircraft Operations Ltd) and any flying establishments elsewhere and nor is that likely to change.

wigglyamp

5th Feb 2012, 15:07

Wycombe Air Centre was not taken over as a gong concern but rather as sale of the trade and assets. As such all approvals were lost (hence the new applications mentioned by Smarthawke) and the trade creditors have NOT been paid.
The press release announcing the take-over by Aurora was issued before any formal announcement to creditors of the administration, so many creditors (us included) believed our debt would be safe and taken on by the new owner as part of a going-concern takeover. I feel we were rather misled!

bornamoth

5th Feb 2012, 18:25

Careful, HL..... KEEP CALM & CARRY ON.... The (secret) creditor-list records that there are those individuals and companies around who were owed much more. An important thing to remember in this difficult World is that if there was any "misleading" about whether owed monies were safe, it was not perpetrated by the rescuers. Guess you know that students' monies have been preserved and loadsajobs retained .... not as bad as history records from other Phoenix risings. Some people are actually pleased that it's all been rescued and look to a brighter future!

gpn01

5th Feb 2012, 21:25

jez d

6th Feb 2012, 10:03

Statement from FRP Advisory, the company that managed WAC's pre-pack administration:

Worldwide Aviation Holdings Limited, previously the parent company of both Worldwide Aviation Limited and Wycombe Air Centre, is a sub-group of the Cabair group of companies.

It suffered severe cashflow problems after intercompany debts were not recoverable due to the failure of two group companies – Cabair International Aviation Limited and European Pilot Training Limited (EPTA) earlier this month.

Commenting on the transactions, Jason Baker said: "World Aviation Holdings Limited suffered as a result of an inability to collect on intercompany debts, which in turn adversely affected sub-group businesses. This had a dramatic impact on cashflow and left both World Aviation Holdings and Wycombe Air Centre in a position where neither business was able to continue to trade as a going concern.

"To preserve each company's value through goodwill, we determined the best course of action would be to proactively market the businesses prior to going through a managed administration process. This process allowed us to protect the companies while a buyer was sought, safeguarding jobs and providing creditors with the best possible chance of a return."

gpn01

6th Feb 2012, 10:16

Statement from FRP Advisory, the company that managed WAC's pre-pack administration:

Thanks Jez. In fact the full press release (FRP Advisory secures the sale of Worldwide Aviation Limited & Wycombe Air Centre - FRP Advisory (http://www.frpadvisory.com/news/frp-advisory-secures-the-sale-of-worldwide-aviation-limited-and-wycombe-air-centre.html)) shows how the whole process started a little earlier and provides a bit more information:

"21 December 2011

FRP Advisory, the specialist restructuring, recovery and insolvency firm, has secured the sale of two companies owned by the same parent group, as a part of a managed administration process, safeguarding the jobs of 55 staff.

Wycombe Air Centre has been sold to Booker Airfield Operations Limited as a part of a pre-packaged administration process, following the appointment of Jason Baker and Geoff Rowley, partners at FRP Advisory, on 12 December - saving the jobs of 35 staff.

Jason Baker and Geoff Rowley were also appointed Joint Administrators to World Aviation Holdings Limited, which entered into administration on 20 December. As a part of a managed administration process, the Joint Administrators secured the sale of shares in Bournemouth based Worldwide Aviation Limited, which was 90 per cent owned by World Aviation Holdings Limited, to D.S. Aviation Limited. The transaction safeguards the jobs of 20 staff.

Worldwide Aviation Holdings Limited, previously the parent company of both Worldwide Aviation Limited and Wycombe Air Centre, is a sub-group of the Cabair group of companies.

It suffered severe cashflow problems after intercompany debts were not recoverable due to the failure of two group companies – Cabair International Aviation Limited and European Pilot Training Limited (EPTA) earlier this month.

Commenting on the transactions, Jason Baker said: "World Aviation Holdings Limited suffered as a result of an inability to collect on intercompany debts, which in turn adversely affected sub-group businesses. This had a dramatic impact on cashflow and left both World Aviation Holdings and Wycombe Air Centre in a position where neither business was able to continue to trade as a going concern.

"To preserve each company's value through goodwill, we determined the best course of action would be to proactively market the businesses prior to going through a managed administration process. This process allowed us to protect the companies while a buyer was sought, safeguarding jobs and providing creditors with the best possible chance of a return.""

Uncertainofposition

7th Feb 2012, 19:56

gpn01

Whilst peddling my sorry backside up from 300' in the bonsai twin on a single wheezing Rotax, the absence of all the light blue Cessnas on the back row became increasingly albeit slowly apparent. It was the domino effect so often seen in these cases. WAC expended a lot of time and AVGAS training for their parent company that was never allegedly reimbursed due to their going in to administration. Not surprisingly their collapse took WAC down with them. They in turn presumably had unmet outgoings to the airfield via BAFC, or whatever they are called this year, hence their interest in acquiring them.

The majority of the singles were leased, hence the tumbleweed now blowing around the almost empty back row. Furthermore of the two Duchesses, which were always a bit tatty and getting longer in the tooth than one of Buffy's friends, Charlie India needs an awful lot of TLC and Charlie Juliet had half a wheels up and may not be an economic rebuild. As the former had what my erstwhile instructor euphemistically explained to me as a negative rate of climb on one engine she may not be much missed. If the Tecnam Twin can get my hefty carcas and an examiner up to circuit height before turning crosswind on one microlight engine, then I have seen the future, and surprisingly it seems to work.

smarthawke

7th Feb 2012, 21:52

Apart from rightly praising the virtues of the Tecnam P2006T, perhaps I can make a small comment or two on the airplane spotting game, Uncertainofposition...

Two of the six former WAC Ltd C152s are on Annual inspection. One Duchess is also on its Annual (including propeller overhaul), the other awaiting TLC back to flying condition.

The other three singles (that's three out of nine) were leased and have been returned.

Airways Flying Club was named that from 1948, changed to British Airways Flying Club in line with its then parent company. Since becoming part of Arora Family Trust, BAFC reverted back to its heritage name of AFC. So, in 64 years, two (perhaps three if you wish to be a pedant) name changes - not quite an annual happening.

PPRuNe Towers

10th Feb 2012, 21:28

Just so you know,

Just so you can never kid yourselves, here's what goes on behind the scenes:

Dear,

As you will be aware Cabair suffered some financial problems last year but Cabair International (UK) Limited purchased the old CCAT business in Cranfield. We are up and running and providing integrated and modular training to both old CCAT and new students.

There is an old thread which must have had thousands of hits that is still ranked very high on a google search for cabair. This is really restricting our marketing effort when potential students google the new business and see this old thread. We are keen to advertise on Pprune and the new Cabair but cannot do this while this thread is still appearing on page 1 of google. Is there anything we can do to remove this old thread from google or at least stop new threads linking to it.

I really do appreciate your help.

Best regards
Andy Cruise.

attitudeflyer

10th Feb 2012, 22:07

â€œLove is in the air!â€ - courtesy of Cabair - Press Release - Digital Journal (http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/579455)
"If you’re looking for love – Cabair International would love to meet you!"
"for all those looking for love – Cabair International has the career to match!"
This seems to be Cabair's new mission statement. Spend over 70k to get a girlfriend!

Cabair has gone through a transition period recently, is it flight training purely for male students or a new dating agency for the rich and desperate?

Views would be greatly appreciated as I am a very confused newbie.

BillieBob

10th Feb 2012, 22:27

In other words, "The truth hurts!"

mad_jock

11th Feb 2012, 13:19

What exactly has changed from the previous incarnation of Cabair apart from they have zero'd thier debt problem by using students money and then not giving them the training that was purchased.

If its the same managers and setup its only a matter of time before exactly the same thing happens again.

I see from the press release they are doing road shows to "recruite" 100 pilots . How does that work?

The amusing thing is that the PPrune link in google is truncated if you actually click the more from button you actually get 5 pages worth of references about cabair on PPrune most of which are not very pleasant if your on the recieving end as a brand.

To actually get what they want you would have to strip out all those threads. And Cabair doesn't realise how search engines work.

The sooner they realise they now have a posioned brand name (hopefully before they rape any more students of money) the better.

North of the Field

11th Feb 2012, 13:42

Cabair: New marketing strategy
â€œLove is in the air!â€ - courtesy of Cabair - Press Release - Digital Journal (http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/579455)
"If you’re looking for love – Cabair International would love to meet you!"
"for all those looking for love – Cabair International has the career to match!"
This seems to be Cabair's new mission statement. Spend over 70k to get a girlfriend!

Cabair has gone through a transition period recently, is it flight training purely for male students or a new dating agency for the rich and desperate?

Views would be greatly appreciated as I am a very confused newbie.

Hi attitudeflyer!,

Views from an ex Cabair student... I've just read the link and am totally bewildered as to who the hell thought that was a good way of promoting the school! - sounds really quite desperate to me (I suppose everyone is desperate for business at this difficult economic time but cheesy marketing to that level is really quite unnecessary in opinion! - I think when you're spending a lot of money on a product you want facts not bull$hit - e.g. Ferrari don't sell cars with the tagline "buy a Ferrari, attract women"... whether or not that's the enquiring owners motivation is up to him/her!).

If you're looking at Cabair as a potential place to train well I can only offer an opinion based on several years ago. Overall I can't knock the training I paid for (ups and downs - due to one or two what I would call less than professional instuctors but they were just bad apples and the vast majority of them were in my opinion good guys (I'm sure this is common in other flight training establishments)).

I'd say the main problem with Cabair is the lack of support upon completion of training. Whether or not things have changed since I left I can't comment on.

PPRuNeUser0173

11th Feb 2012, 15:39

Mad Jock is right and anyway why shouldn't prospective students know what has gone on before. Its your company history Andy! If ALL students and staff had been reimbursed then that may be different - but they haven't. Some students are out of pocket and so are some freelance staff.

Flaymy

11th Feb 2012, 17:40

Does Mr Cruise not realise what a poor reputation Cabair (management; as far as I know their instruction was OK at the commercial school) always had?

piper88

11th Feb 2012, 17:43

does anyone know if there is the option to do the ir and cpl conversion with this school?

mad_jock

11th Feb 2012, 17:51

A student would have to be barking mad to pay them anything upfront.

I personally don't think they will survive in the current format if the folk in the old Cabair that used to make the commercial decisions still have any input at all.

Its the same with failing airlines the real issue is with the mangement set not the workers on the shop floor however much the finger gets pointed at them.

When it comes to getting shot of that managment or getting real changes that will pick the company up you will hit a brick wall because the incompetent managment would prefer the buisness to fail than someone else make a success of it.

I sure the front line instructors both ground and flight could be used in a successful school. But not one called Cabair or being run by the same managment team.

FOUR REDS

12th Feb 2012, 12:19

I admire Pprune Towers for putting post #157 on here. I doubt Pprune could be 'bought-off' so cheaply.

Let the truth of Cabair be out!!!!!!!

ICEMAN747

25th Feb 2012, 09:17

What's happening with Cabair now ?

chrisaviator

25th Feb 2012, 10:49

Hi there,

As you may already know, EPTA is no longer running in any shape or form. I really miss this school as the staff where amazing! The EPTA building is now occupied by a engineering company. Most, if not all the staff have found positions at other companies.

As for Cabair at Cranfield, they must be crazy to continue with the Cabair name. Cabair did allot of damage to so many companies, staff and students. Did they think we would just forget and put our hands back into our pockets! Funny because when I called them to talk about getting some help with finishing my IR training, they asked me for more money upfront and did not offer any help to complete my course. I told them to go jump if they thought that I would give them any more money up front as they still owed me money at the time.

The website states that they saved students, but does not mention that they required additional funds from each student upfront again to save them! More subtle deceit!

As for Mr A Cruise, before EPTA went in, he could have given me a refund, but would not respond to my letter, emails or phone calls....No surprise there then! Why should Pprune listen to him, he ignored everyone else!

As for the bad publicity....you get what you deserve and Cabair deserves all the bad press it can get.

I do not have any sympathy and on a slightly other note, I know one student desperately trying to finish his IR as he thinks that Cabair may go in again. I would not give them any money at all, do yourself a favour, if you want to do an integrated course, contact CTC of Oxford, not two companies that I have been with, but companies that seem to be around for the long run, plus BAA seems to like them!

Lightning Mate

25th Feb 2012, 15:50

A few days ago I received a mail from someone who was considering enrolling on the Cabair integrated course.

I gave him my very considered views, since I am an ex-EPTA/CABAIR tutor. This was his reply to me...........

Thanks - a few things I've found out in case you're interested

For the course I'm looking for (CPL through to fATPL) they have quoted £34000 which is paid in 2 halves up front then later on. That alone has got my alarm bells ringing as I want to pay by card in £3000 chunks.

It's as much sim time as the regs allow and all the quotes were the minimum possible hour etc so not realistic.

One of the guys from the selection day at Man has an unusual name so with the aid of google it turns out he was the MD with a bathroom company until very recently and suddenly claims to have been a pilot so doesn't ring true. He's in pics at the industry awards for that trade that my old company used to go to so it is the right guy.

He also appeared at the top of the search on a site where women post details of cheating men. Lo and behold more pics of the guy and some of the women say he claims to have been X, Y, Z and a pilot but one woman outed him as 'he just works for a pilot training college'......

Something major doesn't add up so my cash will be going to a different school vouched for by word of mouth from 3 separate people that's local to me in the NW.

Thanks for your reply - just hope other people don't get suckered in.

Go on then punters - stick your money with this outfit!!!!

Lightning Mate

25th Feb 2012, 15:55

Chris,

The website states that they saved students,

Wrong! Alex and the rest of us saved most of them.;)

Croist min - keep de smile min.....:)

chrisaviator

26th Feb 2012, 16:22

Bad times, I just heard that Cabair International Ltd has gone in again!

I send my condolences to all the poor students who have lost money.

I hope that your fortunes turn in the near future.

Lightning Mate

26th Feb 2012, 16:27

Bad times, I just heard that Cabair International Ltd has gone in again!

Oh really!

Where from? Gone into what?

Lightning Mate

26th Feb 2012, 16:39

Thanks mate - it is now time that the world knew the facts before anyone else gets their chequebook(s) ready...................

sent you a private message lightingmate

btw - I am not in the lighting profession!

Lightning Mate

26th Feb 2012, 16:46

For all Prune lurkers - watch this space next week.

mad_jock

26th Feb 2012, 19:01

http://www.pprune.org/flying-instructors-examiners/477780-fte-jerez-comments.html

BTW my alarm bells are ring like hell with them as well.

I can see it going down to OAT and CTC. In the next couple of years.

With oxford trying to go more into MPL contracts.

CTC seem to be having quality issues with the product. But the bean counters at the airlines will still go for that style of product if not just for the revenue it generates.

Lightning Mate

26th Feb 2012, 19:07

I can see it going down to OAT and CTC. In the next couple of years.

I think you are very wrong there............

But the bean counters at the airlines will still go for that style of product

I know a couple of beancounters who have totally rejected the "style".

I will not discuss.

mad_jock

26th Feb 2012, 19:28

Thankfully there are a few out there that won't.

Intail training is a mine field.

BillieBob

26th Feb 2012, 21:14

I can see it going down to OAT and CTC. In the next couple of years.I Can't. I think that there is another integrated option in the wings.

mad_jock

26th Feb 2012, 21:41

There might be but I think there isn't enough money out there to support 3.

And definately not enough for 4.

The :mad: and :mad: marketing is becoming transparent and the customers are becoming more informed.

Unless the airlines are willing to invest in the intergrated product they are screwed. (and thats all of them)

rmcb

26th Feb 2012, 21:48

I give them three months on the outside before they go belly up again, with the senior management wide eyed that they have found a new bunch of mugs willing to fund their Caribbean idyll.

mad_jock

26th Feb 2012, 23:04

The next question is how can the powers that be let you potential pilots get raped for over 50k a pop.

Should there not be an IATA type steup for all training orginisation. Escrow accounts as standard or pay the day you fly.

The training industry has a cancer but nobody cares as long as its some poor mug that looses thier familys life savings.

porridge

27th Feb 2012, 04:48

News on the street is that rmcb was a little optimistic with 3 months and it's all kicking off again!

jmparis

27th Feb 2012, 06:37

Bad times, I just heard that Cabair International Ltd has gone in again!

I send my condolences to all the poor students who have lost money.

I hope that your fortunes turn in the near future.

Thank you for the condolences Chris. At the moment myself and the rest of the students are just trying to work out where we go from here.

jjordan

27th Feb 2012, 10:00

This is really bad for those that stayed there. My brother was lucky enough to leave at the last minute before things went bust. He is finishing off right now at AFT in coventry. Apparently the guys there are getting alot of people from Cabair and have a special transfer program all set up for that.

I really hope it works out for everyone guys!

mad_jock

27th Feb 2012, 10:24

jmparis I too feel for you what ever my views about that method of training.

I still to this day remember being at gatwick doing exams when a school went under, there was 15-20 blokes just wandering around in a state of shock.

The caa were quite supportive in a limited way and got them in to explain what would happen to thier training records etc and what thier options were.

rmcb

27th Feb 2012, 11:10

The caa were quite supportive in a limited way

I find this heartening, but mystifying... A dose of prevention would have cured an epidemic in the first place. Why does the regulator not seem to want to apply regulation to this kind of shark?

mad_jock

27th Feb 2012, 11:19

Because they are caught between the airlines and the consumers.

Airlines want and need a huge over supply and the training industry to continue while they are in a low recruiting period.

That said it was many years ago I saw this. Alot has happened since then and I suspect the individuals wouldn't be allowed to offer advice these days.

jmparis

27th Feb 2012, 12:10

mad_jock

27th Feb 2012, 12:18

jmparis

27th Feb 2012, 13:05

As a ruff estimate how many students is this going to effect.

And if you don't mind telling what was the deal they jigged up to allow you to continue training after the last crash?

I completely understand if you don't want to tell mind.

I joined the newly refinanced company so I honestly don't know the total number of students that continued training with Cabair after the last crash.

mad_jock

27th Feb 2012, 14:40

And how much are you out of pocket?

jmparis

27th Feb 2012, 14:49

And how much are you out of pocket?

I would rather not comment on any financial aspects. I'm only here to find out about experiences at other flight schools and not to make negative comments about Cabair.

mad_jock

27th Feb 2012, 15:03

Get in touch with Alex at Bristol and he will be able to give you informed options.

Unfortunately he has had to deal with this situation before of the fall out of schools going tits up.

And from what I hear he is one of the genuine training providers out there that really does care about the student pilots and will put in time and effort picking up the pieces for very little if any personal gain.

Lightning Mate

27th Feb 2012, 15:17

John,

PM me if you wish and I'll update you on what's happened to us. :)

jmparis

27th Feb 2012, 15:32

Duchess_Driver

27th Feb 2012, 15:43

Contact | Bristol Ground School (http://www.bristol.gs/contact)

jmparis

27th Feb 2012, 15:46

@Duchess_Driver Thank you :)

mad_jock

27th Feb 2012, 16:22

I would take LM up on his offer as well.

Lightning Mate

27th Feb 2012, 18:28

What offer was that.................?

mad_jock

27th Feb 2012, 19:05

PM me if you wish and I'll update you on what's happened to us.

To give the lad some more details.

chrisaviator

27th Feb 2012, 21:08

Hi all,

Perhaps we could get a few other chaps to help out finding new schools to help those affected by the downfall of Cabair.

This is on the basis that these chaps may retrieve some funds (???) or find another means of funding their future training.

Firstly, before I say any more, anyone reading this should have a look at the beginning of this thread to find out how to protect yourself in the future....i.e. there is allot of advise from other members...please take note of these suggestions.

I can suggest the following link as a good start. This is the document from the CAA with the approved list of training providers.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_lts%20ApprovedSchoolsList_Doc31v105.pdf

I would point out that it is not exactly up to date, in that Cabair is still listed as a current provider, so Cabair can safely be ignored.

So if you want to continue as an integrated student, you only have a few options:

CTC in Bournemouth (Spoke to JB who now works over there, they seem to be fully booked until Autumn, but perhaps to get on the list would be a start) ,

Oxford, - Don't know anyone there, so perhaps someone else could comment?

Flight Training SL - Again don't know anyone there and not heard any reports about them, good or bad....can someone comment?

Oh, almost forgot Atlantic Flight Training - Again don't know anyone there and not heard any reports about them, good or bad....can someone comment?

I don't know the transition from integrated to modular, so If someone know what loop holes need to be met to satisfy the CAA, please could they post them. I am guessing that there may be issues as the integrated chaps may not have a PPL, but have started the ATPL exams?

If these schools don't suit you, then you will need to proceed down the modular route like the rest of us....lol

Lots of Schools to choose from, so I will just put the CAA PDF link and you can have a link for yourself. Same as the link above, just further down the document.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_lts%20ApprovedSchoolsList_Doc31v105.pdf

Hope that this helps some of the guys looking to finish up. All the best on getting this sorted. I have some idea of the stress and and sadness you are going though, you have my sympathy....

high wing harry

28th Feb 2012, 08:33

KermitRulesOK

28th Feb 2012, 08:42

Atlantic Flight Training at Coventry are good. They fly G1000 DA40s and 42s plus it's in the vicinity of Daventry so the if there are any students doing their IR it will be familiar territory for airways stuff.

jjordan

28th Feb 2012, 11:59

@jmparis. There is someone at AFT by the name of Ghassan you can reach him on [email protected]. He should be able to help out with any questions you have with regards to transfers.

Hope it goes well for you!

Lightning Mate

28th Feb 2012, 12:03

PM me if you wish and I'll update you on what's happened to us.

mad jock,

I'm staff mate.

gpn01

28th Feb 2012, 12:04

I also hear that Wycombe Air Centre is putting together a package for those that need them after a load of students went in yesterday asking the "where do I go from here" question

Give flying schools a call and go to the one that gives you the best response to your plight!

Good luck to all of you affected - you have the sympathy from so many people

Did Wycombe Air Centre students lose anything when WAC went into administration? I would imagine that the answer to the question "where do I go from here" depends upon whether they're asking how to continue with their career aspirations (particularly if they were former Cabair, EPTA or BNU students) or seeking advice on how get their money back.

keith williams

28th Feb 2012, 12:37

mad_jock

28th Feb 2012, 12:40

kieth as your alot closer to it than most, how many are actually out there just now for training and whats the current training capacity?

chrisaviator

28th Feb 2012, 13:39

Hi guys,

Just want to clear up some stuff!

Firstly those effected by EPTA and Wycombe including those university students from Kingston and New Bucks have a very different situation from those at Cranfield.

EPTA and Wycombe students will be looking for modular training as the majority, if not all were modular.

Kingston University changed their ground school over to BCFT at Bournemouth and I believe that all the students from Kingston Have been looked after in some shape or form including myself.

New Bucks have a simular plan in place, except that I beleive that they are sending their current intake of students to BCFT and the next intake of students to Oxford....This is what I have heard, so not 100% although Oxford websites indicates that it will be doing so.

Non University students and some of the University student have taken things into their own hands and gone to other schools.

In my post above, I was trying to help the current student crisis, not the first as Cabair has gone in twice now in recent months. These guys and girls were based at Cranfield on the integrated course, so there options are not so straight forward.

I have heard over the grape vine that Atlantic Flight Training in Coventry has got approval from the CAA to take any integrated students with emediate effect, however, please make sure that you double check this information as I am not a student consultant...lol Just trying to help students that got stiched up like me.....

Has any other school done something like this?

Bear in mind that any school taking you on from Cabair will not do it for free, however, there are lots of students looking for a new school and it would be wise for you guys to get together and try get some sort of plan in place to approach schools.

You might be able to set some ground rules in place including non payment up front and get a discount if a group of you join the same school? Just a thought.

Genghis the Engineer

28th Feb 2012, 13:50

EPTA and Wycombe were operating under a single company approval - and Wycombe is now nothing whatsoever to do with Cabair. WAC went into insolvency because of the internal debts forced on them by Cabair, then were bought out by Arora Family Trust - the owner of Airways Aero Association (the other fixed wing school at Booker, and also the tenants for Wycombe Air Park).

Airways and WAC are now being merged under a new "Booker" brand, with the old Airways club concentrating on PPL flying, and the old WAC concentrating on modular/IR and and university (Brunel and Bucks) contracts. So far as I know, WAC's approvals to deliver modular and IR training remain intact.

Sorry, I don't know what has happened to the EPTA students at Hurn. I'd certainly recommend that any "stranded" EPTA students talk direct to WAC who seem to be doing their level best to protect anybody under their umbrella, as well as wisely distancing themselves as far as possible from what little is left of Cabair.

G

FOUR REDS

28th Feb 2012, 15:56

On the Flyer forum pages there is an interesting (allegedly from) CAA statement. If true, it is the first such statement seen from them.

I understand that 3 a/c were put on a chain last wednesday at Hurn,
after having been ferried there for 'maintenance'. Most of their a/c
were leased from there!!!!!

Apparently the Cranfield refuelling people and Cranfield University are not being owed loads of money.

After September CCAT had 24 students on their books, of whom 4 passed their IR and MCC in the meantime. Many of the remainder were 'crying' in their coffees in the Cafe P. yesterday morning.

I feel sorry for these guys and also for the staff for having to go through this again. My symphaties to all!!!!!

mad_jock

28th Feb 2012, 16:25

Don't be daft and if you have paid 200 quid for it you can kiss that goodbye as well.

I hope someone from Cabair has actually emailed the folk that have booked on it so nobody wastes travel money getting there.

Matthew Adams

28th Feb 2012, 16:52

Flyer link to CAA statament saying they have closed :

FLYER Airportal - General Aviation News (http://www.flyer.co.uk/news/newsfeed.php?artnum=1194)

Sad news particuarly for all those students who paid an extra 15k.

Or the slim possibility that someone has their wires crossed because I though Cabair International was the old FTO name which all ready went bust?

mad_jock

28th Feb 2012, 17:28

The company has gone bust. Its gone, insolvent. The woman you spoke to last week is now unemployed. There won't be anyone to answer the phone.

If you payed by credit card you can claim your cash back through that, but if you payed by debt card your money is gone.

North of the Field

28th Feb 2012, 17:35

lgordon1992 they were bust at the back end of last week so the chances of an assessment I'd say are zero (I mean there is nothing to be assessed for as the establishment is no more) and the odds of getting back your £200 are also somewhere between none and no chance.

Whilst I can appreciate this is annoying you should spare a thought for some of the guys who will be out of pocket in the 10s of thousands of pounds!

You've dodged a bullet!

Lightning Mate

28th Feb 2012, 17:56

Some of us have come out of this very well. :)

Guess who...................

mad_jock

28th Feb 2012, 18:12

:D either extremely thick.

Or a troll

Either way good luck

bandie

28th Feb 2012, 18:13

Who? Certainly not the students or staff.

G-STRX

28th Feb 2012, 18:22

Well.....

I am (was) a student enrolled on Cabair's integrated ATPL course.

I would like to thank all 'wannabes', all 'keyboard warriors', all 'part-time pilots', all 'middle-aged crisis suffering dead end job GA pilots in inverted commas with delusions of being a real pilot pilot', all competitors, all PPL's with no hope of EVER moving forwad. ...but....... most of......I'd like to thank all PPRUNE contributors to the old 'Cabair' thread........

Cabair was in trouble, everybody knew it, it wasnt a secret. We live in an age where everyone in the world has a platform to air their minute to minute thoughts....and by god, it looks like we're all using it.....(".....I'm eating a sanwich. LOL".......).

I (rightly or wrongly) started my integrated ATPL course by paying Cabair the WHOLE balance of the cost of the course (£64,000). My rationale was "I dont want anything distracting me from my studying/flying"......

In September ('11) Cabair hit some problems and we were all stood down, for what panned out to be four months.

We were then all asked to pay a 'Top-Up Fee' to keep the company going and to continue our training. Fair enough, thats business and but atleast here was a way forward......

......Enter the 'Keyboard Pilots'......

......the sad middle-aged, middle management, mediocre in every way, GA but wish they were 20 years younger to do a CPL bastards who then proceeded to RAPE the Cabair brand.....

Cabair was badly managed, badly organised and badly delivered, with a deteriorating reputation; but it was still a CAA Accredited school for an Integrated Course trying to make the best of a bad situation.

What Cabair didnt need at this point was 'armchair pilots' chipping in after hearing half of a conversation through their mates and then regurgitating it on this very website and, in turn, making any potential students look elsewhere.

It carried on from there. The damage to the brand to the brand was done. No matter what Cabair's instructors, management, marketing, operations did, they were at the mercy of 'armchair pilots'.

This website (PPRUNE) knew about the predicament of Cabair, its staff, and most importantly its students. Cabair's CEO at the time emailed the Moderator to ask to stop the negative threads as it was damaging the brand and putting current students future in jeopardy..........PPRUNE decided to publish this email.......classy move.

Cabair was far from perfect. Infact, speaking from a students POV, it was bloody awful, but I cant help but to think its demise was accelerated because of 'contributers' to this forum damaging the brand name.

I am £70,000 down. I have no come-back. I dont even have a PPL after 90 hours (integrated courses dont do individual licenses). I am faced with the cold, hard fact that I have lost all of my money, and I have to I cough up atleast another £30,000 to get my license.

This is a life-changing amount of money. People's careers/livlehoods have been dashed. What you post on this forum has a massive knock-on effect to people's lives. So the next time you think about regurgitating a rumour you may have heard 'down the flying club'....peoples lives, mortgages, and future may be at stake.

Cheers PPRUNE.

PS. I will not be monitoring or looking at any responses to this post. I have joined the forum to post this......

attitudeflyer

28th Feb 2012, 20:25

lgordon1992 may actually be a genuinely conned moron who has fallen for the 'love is in the air' advertising campaign. A quick search of him on google shows he likes to trade in 'online fantasy' games - the ones you play by yourself in your bedroom for hours on end, did I mention by yourself for hours on end, so the attraction of becoming an 'eligible bachelor' distorted his brain and he forgot how to use google.
If only HE put ‘cabair’ into this wonderful search engine. :ugh:

mcgoo

28th Feb 2012, 20:26

I know the school I go to has already took on a few students from Cabair today who were left stuck, I won't post the details as it would go against advertising rules but happy to pass on by PM.

goldeneaglepilot

28th Feb 2012, 21:45

So lets get this right - you paid all of your money up front? You did not mind loaning Cabair your money and became a "bank" for them. You took the risk of lending them the money and when it all goes wrong you lash out at others.

You expected others to take the same risk to protect your money. You expected people to follow you like sheep.

At least what was posted on here allowed people to make their minds up from an informed decision.

Frankly I'm glad you did not get a licence, with your clear selfish streak I would not want to fly in an aeroplane with you. You only think of yourself.

I wish you well in your future, perhaps washing cars is better suited to you. At least you wont put others at risk.

mcgoo

28th Feb 2012, 22:00

^ What he Said + 1!

ShyTorque

28th Feb 2012, 22:02

G-STRX won't be reading this but it's a huge shame that he didn't join the forum before parting with his money "up front".

One piece of advice very often repeated here is that one should never put a stash of money up front for flight training, for precisely the reason he has sadly discovered.

rmcb

28th Feb 2012, 22:15

Please be gentle on this guy - he has just lost a shedload of cash and is, I feel, entitled to be a little pissed off.

Despite what he feels, contributors here didn't cause this company's demise - alleged dishonesty, slack management and amorality did that months back. PPRuNe has shown some backbone that was distinctly lacking some years back.

I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the CAA; they put these jokers on their approved list - there must be criteria that are just too loose to let this happen. Do we hear anything from the Gatwick Aquarium? Nothing obvious that I can see...

goldeneaglepilot

28th Feb 2012, 22:24

Cabair was badly managed, badly organised and badly delivered, with a deteriorating reputation

My thoughts are in this case tough sh!t that the poster lost £70k. He should not have paid his money up front and then expected others to follow like sheep to protect his money

Shaft109

28th Feb 2012, 22:31

I recently attended a selection / assessment day with the 'new' Cabair.

Quite impressed with the presentation and zero bull**** style.

'Passed' the selection.

Whilst waiting for quote I found out as much as possible about the school from yes, pprune, but also contacts, aquaintances, and by driving down to Cranfield on a day off and having a nosey without telling the school mystery shopper style.

I couldn't get on site but did see 3 DA42's parked although none moved anywhere.

Alarm bell 1. All the aircraft were leased. Don't know why but it struck me as just a little odd.

2. Quote didn't allow for paying in installments (£3000) at a time.

3. Massive thread on here about Cabair having difficulties as little as 2 months ago.

4. The quote was for the bare minimum hours, app fees and as much sim time as possible.

5. The sage advice NEVER PAY UP FRONT - for anything.

6. A gut instinct that I can't put my finger on from the above.

The result is I saved all of my cash - I'd like to point out that I'm not gloating at the thread starter who lost all his money - but I question why he or she simply didn't keep the money in their bank account if they had that much sitting there earning yourself interest and transfer it as and when required.

I just can't understand the logic; moreover I was in the actual process to give Cabair my money so I'm not a keyboard warrior on this one. Actually I did give them £179 last month but I'll put that down to experience.

Looks like I made the right decision then.

zondaracer

28th Feb 2012, 22:41

I cannot imagine what it would feel like to lose that kind of money. So understandably he is upset, but this is 2012, the Internet has become extremely powerful and that is reality. The wealth of information has to ability to just proliferate on here and there is not much you can do about that.

OP is not the first to lose his money, and won't be the last. Hopefully, the message "don't pay up front" will reach out to more folks that wouldn't have heard it if it were not for the Internet.

rmcb

28th Feb 2012, 22:49

Cabair was badly managed, badly organised and badly delivered, with a deteriorating reputation; but it was still a CAA Accredited school for an Integrated Course trying to make the best of a bad situation.

So why does the CAA feel that this company should be allowed to take massive, huge, life changing 100% deposits up front? Their fiduciary nous was distinctly lacking in the recent past. What about a CAA funded escrow? Sure, it will put up the cost of flying but it's the only way I can work on for delivering peace of mind.

I am sure there will be lots of 'that's all we're required to do' responses (Nuremburg defence?). If that's the case it's inadequate, pathetic and disgraceful from a monopoly doing the bidding of our legislature. Who, incidentally take a lot of our gelt throughout the process of training.

gpn01

28th Feb 2012, 23:02

Although lots of companies will express their sympathy and offer to "take on" the victims of the CABAIR disaster, it is probably the case that most of these offers are driven by the self-interest of the companies rather than anything more altruistic.

All of the FTO’s are likely to be struggling to find business at the moment and some will be struggling to remain afloat. CABAIR will not be the last one to fail. Students looking for a new FTO should take great care not to get bitten again.

It is also worth remembering that EPTA was owned and managed by WAC when it went down.

Don't think the latter point is correct. EPTA was owned by World Aviation Holdings Ltd, a holding company set up from Cabair International Aviation Ltd. WAC was also owned by World Aviation Holdings Ltd. EPTA wasn't therefore owned by WAC.

When Cabair went into Administration, EPTA went into liquidation and WAC went into administration. Worldwide Aviation Ltd, another company within the WAHL holding also went into administration and was sold through a pre-pack deal to DS Aviation. WAC was sold as a pre-pack deal Booker Aircraft Operations Ltd. Booker Aircraft Operations Ltd is owned by Booker UK Investments Ltd.

gpn01

28th Feb 2012, 23:13

Well.....

Cabair was badly managed, badly organised and badly delivered, with a deteriorating reputation; but it was still a CAA Accredited school for an Integrated Course trying to make the best of a bad situation.

What Cabair didnt need at this point was 'armchair pilots' chipping in after hearing half of a conversation through their mates and then regurgitating it on this very website and, in turn, making any potential students look elsewhere.

It carried on from there. The damage to the brand to the brand was done. No matter what Cabair's instructors, management, marketing, operations did, they were at the mercy of 'armchair pilots'.

Do you not think that the brand was in any way damaged by the characteristics you described as "badly managed, badly organised and badly delivered, with a deteriorating reputation" ? Do you really believe that more harm was caused by posts on PPRUNE?

H'mmm.

When a company like this, which operates a financial model that sees much of its income come in well before the expediture (pretty much nirvana for a company as it shoudn't need to worry about cashflow!), goes bust it's only to be expected that remarks will be made on websites to forewarn others. Even if nothing had appeared on PPRUNE I would expect that if it had an untenable business model that it would fail anyway.

lap1104

29th Feb 2012, 00:19

I recently attended a selection / assessment day with the 'new' Cabair.

When I saw this thread, I couldn't help but join the forums. I had just applied to Cabair and was due to go to my assessment day next Thursday. Oh well, there's £179 down the drain, better happen now than it being tonnes more!

It has also been a learning curve, as although I knew Cabair had been in difficulty last year, I was under the impression that this was a 'all new Cabair' - clearly not.

I was kind of hoping that the assessment day would still go ahead, not that I would accept the place if offered (which obviously wouldn't happen), rather just to gain the experience to take to flight schools that I would apply to in future, and to at least get some sort of assessment day experience out of my £179.

BigGrecian

29th Feb 2012, 01:17

. So the next time you think about regurgitating a rumour you may have heard 'down the flying club'....peoples lives, mortgages, and future may be at stake.

They weren't rumours. They were true - and they've had a shoddy reputation for years - morale of the story do your research!

Flaymy

29th Feb 2012, 11:56

The damage to the brand to the brand was done.The brand had little left to damage. I did my training many years ago, and was irritated by their management (I must emphasise that this was a management problem; I know of no criticism of instructors) even before I learnt that there was often an "S" added to the name of the company.

The irritation I felt is quite relevant here. They tried to sell me an integrated course, despite the fact that I had nearly 200 hours already. They never even mentioned modular courses. They never gave the option of paying in more than two instalments. So I saved my money, and went to a school that allowed me to pay much less up-front and of course much less in total.

The point is G-STRX is blaming people here because they persuaded others not to be as foolish as he was. Had he done sound research before spending an eye-watering amount of money (I was wary of spending half that!) then he would have known that integrated courses are ridiculously costly, are not appropriate for most people unless in some sort of scheme aimed at a particular employer, and that Cabair had a bad reputation on the commercial side.

Very sad that he lost an extra £15k, but by human nature it is almost inevitable to throw good money after bad, to think that without that little extra £15k then the original £64k is wasted.

jmparis

29th Feb 2012, 13:19

CTC in Bournemouth (Spoke to Jane Brookfield who now works over there, they seem to be fully booked until Autumn, but perhaps to get on the list would be a start)

@chrisaviator Would you be able to put me in contact with Jane Brookfield? I know her from when she used to work for EPTA in Bournemouth and I'm currently considering transferring to CTC.

jmparis

29th Feb 2012, 13:22

Dan the weegie

29th Feb 2012, 13:27

My thoughts are in this case tough sh!t that the poster lost £70k. He should not have paid his money up front and then expected others to follow like sheep to protect his money

Wow man, that's seriously cold. The poor guy is lashing out because he has nowhere to go. You sounds like the kind of chap who would walk up to a guy that lost his legs in Afghanistan dancing around him telling him he shouldn't really be surprised because there's folk that get blown up there every day.

People make unwise decisions all the time and what a terrible shame that this guy lost that money on a bad decision.

jmparis

29th Feb 2012, 13:33

if you are referring to the same one i think of, today a dozen of ex-cabair students walked in with logbooks and other relevant documents seeking assistance. Another half-dozen is expected for tomorrow morning as well.

Whilst 'this school' is very busy and has a commensurate fleet of a/c to cope with its current students, i'm pretty sure everything possible will be done to assist any Cabair students, from CAA transfer paperwork to possibly some free time in the sim to help. Even temporary leasing extra a/c to supply more (unexpected) training is considered.

@windforce Would you be able to give me the name of the flight school? I'm also an ex-Cabair student in need of assistance.

FOUR REDS

29th Feb 2012, 13:34

Cabair.net:

quote -

This domain has just been registered for one of our customers!
Domain registration and webhosting at best prices.
OneandOne

Unquote

So quickly after the event, who would want THAT name?:confused:

Lightning Mate

29th Feb 2012, 14:08

The man said it!

Flaymy

29th Feb 2012, 14:39

Someone who wants to redirect searches to their own website /cynic

FOUR REDS

29th Feb 2012, 15:48

You Tube: See

Cabair International Aviation UK LTD Farewell (Goodbye)

A student says 'thanks' despite the hardship!!!!!!

goldeneaglepilot

29th Feb 2012, 15:50

Wow man, that's seriously cold. The poor guy is lashing out because he has nowhere to go. You sounds like the kind of chap who would walk up to a guy that lost his legs in Afghanistan dancing around him telling him he shouldn't really be surprised because there's folk that get blown up there every day.

No Dan,

You have that very wrong, my attitude would be total sympathy and support if the guy had lost his legs because no one had told him the area was bobby trapped. However if there were signs up saying beware you might get blown up if you walk over there, and the man was annoyed that a load of other people had not walked through the minefield with him to protect his legs then I would show little sympathy.

Even less sympathy if he then attacked the group who put the sign up, claiming it had stopped others getting their legs blown off and as a result he had been more liable to injury.

Andy_20

29th Feb 2012, 18:00

Well said GoldenEaglePilot. Rule 1. NEVER PAY THE FULL AMOUNT UPFRONT.

Id be gutted if i lost that much money, but maybe a little more research might have saved him some heartache. Id prefer to keep hold of my money and know where it was going, no need to pay £68k straight away. He had no "get out" clause. what if something happened to him after day one in the school and he couldn't fly anymore... would he get all his money back!? NO...:ugh:

Lightning Mate

29th Feb 2012, 18:06

Adios

29th Feb 2012, 23:42

G-STRX Writes
This website (PPRUNE) knew about the predicament of Cabair, its staff, and most importantly its students. Cabair's CEO at the time emailed the Moderator to ask to stop the negative threads as it was damaging the brand and putting current students future in jeopardy..........PPRUNE decided to publish this email.......classy move.

What Cabair actually wrote in that email was that they would like to ADVERTISE on Pprune, but couldn't until the moderators killed the thread. Why G-STRX can't see how offensive this would be to any self-respecting moderator with half an ounce of journalistic integrity is lost on me. :ugh:

Besides being tasteless, this offer of a quid pro quo could be seen as an attempt to bribe Pprune, which would be a violation of anti-corruption legislation. This is probably least of the management's offences though.

L'aviateur

1st Mar 2012, 05:29

The Cabair situation has been developing for the last 18-24 months. A little bit of research online would have shown that.
That being said, there are still many people who don't really use the internet for background knowledge. I've met many people around flying clubs and schools who have never heard of pprune, and are working through the ATPL's based on knowledge gleaned from flying clubs, schools and a friends.

Artificial Horizon

1st Mar 2012, 07:03

I am sorry but this has to be a wind-up. Don't come running to blame someone else because you were stupid enough to pay that sort of money upfront to a flying school of all places!! :ugh::ugh: If you had bothered to do any research you could have easily found out that the Cabair Group was in serious trouble. NEVER NEVER pay a large upfront sum to ANY flying school unless you do so on a credit card which will offer you protection against bankruptcy of a service provider. To then put in another lump sum to try and keep Cabair going is just totally bizarre. You can blame anyone you like, the fact of the matter is though that plenty of people were capable of doing their research and as a result didn't go to Cabair.

talkpedlar

1st Mar 2012, 07:16

..it takes balls of iron to publicly announce how grossly stupid, naive and braindead you've been.

I can't feel sorrow for this guy..just despair. He has only himself to blame..no-one else.. not Cabair..not Pprune... no-one. Period.

wiggy

1st Mar 2012, 09:23

That being said, there are still many people who don't really use the internet for background knowledge.

Agreed.

One afternoon last Autumn at LHR T5 I met one not so young but very keen idealistic wanabee who was about to attend one of the pilot fairs that was doing the rounds at the time. The guy was very clued up about the airlines, knew what he needed to do in the way of exams, flying and the like.....in fact it transpired he'd already booked himself a course of some sort at Cabair...:eek: .... No, he hadn't heard the stories about Cabair that were circulating, and he had never heard of Pprune :ooh: Needless to say a bit of advice about money and then useful websites was offered, so I really hope he isn't G-STRX.

Sad to say it's innocents to the slaughter, intent of "living the dream", thinking that all in aviation are knights in shining armour and totally unable to believe that some people prey on that naivity.

I know Pprune is scorned by some "proper" pilots but this section alone is worth it's weight in gold, if only because it allows us old f**ts, long out of training, to keep our ears to the ground and have something useful to say when asked for our advice about becoming a pilot....

MCDU2

1st Mar 2012, 09:49

lap 1104 (http://www.pprune.org/members/383037-lap1104)- Please bear in mind the following general rules regarding flight training:-

- assessment days are an old marketing ploy to try and get your business. By making a course "appear" difficult to get into a course provider can then price it accordingly. They can also keep out the wasters that although would provide some much needed cash would more than likely cause trouble and bring down the tone of the school.

- you are the customer and they need YOU, not the other way around.

- the GAPAN assessments are the only truly independent ones that I am aware of. Bear in mind that most other assessments are either marketing ploys or else they are run by outfits such as CTC who have a particular "mould" that they are looking to produce.

- never pay up front to avail of discounts etc. Put it onto your credit card.

mad_jock

1st Mar 2012, 11:06

the way I read the post is its just a moan that the OP got stitched over by CABAIR and not some other poor sod who hadn't payed their money yet.

Very understandable to be honest.

As for the rest you can't expect people outside to allow innocent gullable wannbies to piss there familys capital up the wall.

Personally I am glad PPrune towers posted that email. It showed everyone what people were dealing with.

The fact that 20 of you have lost life changing amounts of money is very sad and to be honest I don't think anyone is any way pleased that you have. What we are pleased about is that potentially another 100 students haven't been pulled in to loose money as well.

The more experenced pilots will have other views about the reduction of training capacity. I recon its about 150 a year been taken out the system. Another 2-300 places removed and there might be a change to current recruting proccesses

porridge

1st Mar 2012, 17:53

Has anyone considered getting together and launching a Class Action against the CAA regarding Cabair? Better do it before the 1st of April (EASA Doomsday tho') You could just win. Time to get the legal vultures in on this one. My opinion is that the CAA has a severe dereliction of care, maybe not the first time, but definitely the second. Just my humble opinion mind!

rmcb

1st Mar 2012, 22:46

Class action - cracking idea... unfortunately the CAA have not technically done anything wrong. The only reference that I can find to becoming an approved CPL/IR FTO (in a financial sense) is:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1175Issue1.pdf , section 17.

What do they do with that data? The Lord only knows - from the recent past history it seems irrelevant, other than for apologists at the aquarium to deliver platitudes and say 'all was done in order'. As in:

FLYER Airportal - General Aviation News (http://www.flyer.co.uk/news/newsfeed.php?artnum=1194)

I, for one do not want them to start policing the financial acumen of directors and company finances. Stick to doing a damned good job of world beating safety regulation. However, it intrigues me that the statutory requirement to provide a [limited] safety net to passengers (ATOL) seems to be fairly well run, yet they cannot (will not?) provide a minimal safety net for trainees who can only train at the organisations to whom they have given the nod.

This is stuff for corporate law to be amended and the FSA to actually do their job and examine the finances of FTOs who are, to all intents and purposes, behaving as banks.

MCDU2

2nd Mar 2012, 15:17

There is a very easy solution to all of this. First get the schools to register a bond with the CAA. This cuts out the muppets for a start. And secondly have the CAA operate an escrow account whereby the trainee lodges money with them and in turn cash is drawn down as lessons are flown or costs incurred. Given the technological age we live in it would be very easy for all the parties involved to access account details and find out balances and undertake all of the required checks and balances.

The CAA can get interest on the money held to offset their administration costs and if necessary charge a small transation fee to make up any difference.

Of course we know they won't do anything about this issue as they have argued for years that its not in their remit. Until someone affected challenges them in court then nothing will happen.

Genghis the Engineer

2nd Mar 2012, 16:15

To be honest any bank could do that, it doesn't need the CAA to get involved.

G

goldeneaglepilot

2nd Mar 2012, 17:31

Using a commercial Escrow service would work. The compny providing the training would be able to make arrangements with their bank for facilities based on the safe knowledge that the fee's would be secure in Escrow.

The student would be protected against the demise of a company (such as Cabair) payments to the supplier could be triggered by key performance achievements (Exams taken, hours flown, ratings issued etc). The money would be held securely by an independent third party company protecting both supplier and student.

So the obvious question, cost? For such an arrangement normally 3 - 10% of the total value. Yes, it would add a cost to the course, but in my mind that cost should be regarded as insurance by the student against loosing all the money paid up front.

There are more obvious questions like how can the CAA issue a TRTO to a dormant company? If you read CAA Standards document 34, then that should not be possible. Recently it came to light that is exactly what happened with another company (not Cabair). In its own standards document the CAA talk of minimum financial requirements for a company, yet it clearly made a huge mistake by issuing a TRTO to a dormant company.

rmcb

2nd Mar 2012, 17:35

Genghis - I agree - but seeing as the CAA believe finance is of interest to them when approving the FTOs, I believe they should put this at the top of their 'to do' list.

It isn't good enough to abrogate all responsibility with this approval privilege. They regulate students very strongly and earn a not inconsiderable sum from the training process.

MCDU2 has raised an interesting point, but I don't think the interest earned would cover the cost of administering an escrow scheme. The cost of flight training will have to go up, but I believe peace of mind is an important part of the training process.

Another point he mentions makes me wonder... Why is it there is no standard training curriculum? If this was the case, you could just take up with a different FTO from the point you had reached before. No sending of records from a now defunct organisation who mightn't care less if the records are transferred.

rmcb

2nd Mar 2012, 17:41

goldeneaglepilotyet it clearly made a huge mistake by issuing a TRTO to a dormant company.

Quite right. They are trying to appear to do the right thing - everyone becomes accountable, you split the accountability, nobody is accountable.

This is commonplace in public service these days, a legacy of the 'let's make ourselves cute and cuddly', HR driven platitudinous Tony Blair PC brigade nonsense era.

I can feel my blood pressure rising...

mad_jock

2nd Mar 2012, 17:49

Why is it there is no standard training curriculum?

Because the development of it is one of the hoops that you jump through to get the approval.

The caa make you have each one different. If you use an already appoved one it will just get thrown back at you.

Its the same with AOC's and it gets to the stupid position that the same bloke writing the part A's and B 's get them knocked back and told to change something which they had been previously been told to put in for another AOC.

chrisbl

2nd Mar 2012, 17:59

MCDU2

Interesting idea but unnecessarily complicated. The escrow account gets rid of the advantage of the upfront payment, ie the use of the cash by the training provider.

By the time you get to something like this, pay as you go (preferably by credit card) achieves all of this without any added hassle.

The reality is that these training providers need to be properly capitalised where the shareholders are taking their fair share of the risk, not loading the financial risk onto the students and suppliers.

Personally I think its immoral to take advance payments like this. If a builder did this they would be chased all over the place on some consumer programme.

I think it is time that one of these consumer protection shows exposed the commercial flight training racket that was Cabair just to better inform the public.

We might not like it but it is necessary.

rmcb

2nd Mar 2012, 18:02

Ok - I'll bite...

If that is true, Genghis, a great shame - I respect the CAA immensely for its other commitments.

Will anyone at the CAA explain how that is good practice, a valid use of its proportion of the fees I have paid them over the years? Until such time, I shall treat the approval department with the contempt and derision it seems to have worked so hard to earn.

lilpilot

2nd Mar 2012, 18:13

"Cabair was in trouble, everybody knew it, it wasnt a secret. "

... and they still managed to lure victims to pay upfront

I (rightly or wrongly) started my integrated ATPL course by paying Cabair the WHOLE balance of the cost of the course (£64,000).

... with the above knowledge you gave them all that money

"My rationale was "I dont want anything distracting me from my studying/flying"

..... which you had to rationalize from the getgo

"Cabair was badly managed, badly organised and badly delivered, with a deteriorating reputation;"

..... so you and many more "students" clearly took a gamble

"but it was still a CAA Accredited school for an Integrated Course"

...... more rationale to throw money at them

You paid 70k for 90 hours of sightseeing flying because you where told with money you can bypass GA, as it seems you look down upon GA pilots and have no clue what flying is about. Bit ironic.

For years, not months this forum has been trying inform wannabe students that sCabair is running a pyramid like scheme, whether it's been said out loud so frankly or not. It has also been conveyed that once the bubble bursts, the last ones will stand to loose the most.

Go ahead call me an armchair pilot, but let me tell you I have a little blue book on the lamp table, next to the armchair. Never pay upfront. Visit at least ten schools before commencing any training.

goldeneaglepilot

2nd Mar 2012, 19:11

The advantadge to a company having in place an escrow payment against a student is that provided they provide the service the student has paid in front for to the escrow scheme then they WILL get paid - no chance of an issue with credit limits on a card. Due to this a BANK will release funding to a company, providing its credit worthy.

It replaces the tried and failed way of using students as the companies bank. Much safer than a company wondering if the funds are availible against xyz credit card. It is a two way method of protection

rmcb

2nd Mar 2012, 21:41

Interesting idea but unnecessarily complicated. The escrow account gets rid of the advantage of the upfront payment, ie the use of the cash by the training provider.

What an escrow account will do is to give the FTO peace of mind knowing there is a commitment from the student and they can model their future expenditure knowing, barring things going horribly wrong, that student will spend his/her money with them.

Personally I think its immoral to take advance payments like this. If a builder did this they would be chased all over the place on some consumer programme.

I don't know a single builder who doesn't fund their closing projects with cash injections from new signings.

I think it is time that one of these consumer protection shows exposed the commercial flight training racket that was Cabair just to better inform the public.

I agree wholeheartedly.

There seems to be a distinctly nasty reaction to the OP; I, for one, can only think 'there but for the grace of God...'. Can you honestly say that you haven't laid, say, £1500, in your 'account' up front when buying a car, for example? If you haven't, you are a canny super genius and flying has robbed the banking sector of the next George Soros...

G-STRX

3rd Mar 2012, 06:49

Okay....

I know I said I wouldnt bother looking at this, but suprisingly (or unsuprisingly), I have managed to have a few beers (hitting the bottle!) and have looked at the replies and discussed them with a few of my peers......

Well this thread has obviously caused a stir; touched a few nerves and, provoked a reaction from people involved Commericial Flight Training and 'almost' involved alike.............and, inevitably..... wound-up the GA 'Jeremy-Clarkson-alikes' Community..(!)

First of all, I've seen a few posts from lads/girls who were 'about' to join Cabair.....I'm glad you haven't lost any (serious) money. However, I also wonder what would have happened if y'all had not have been put off joining.......

I completely understand the hostility from the GA guys.....bore off part-timers: this thread is about us youngsters; nobody wants/needs to hear your embittered opinion on OUR situation that you have NO basis for commenting on....I would suggest, unless you are an ATPL FI, CFI or an ATPL or CPL Grad or a current student....dont bother continue reading. There's nothing here that concerns you, and nothing that you have any basis on commenting on. Although, I'm sure that wont stop you.........

I can understand the criticism from the "if you'd had done some research, you'd have known" and the "I have no sympathy 4 u because you were stupid enough to pay up front" guys...so I'd like to address these head on.

For a start...when I wrote the initial post I was/am ANGRY at the world and ANGRY and want/ed ANYONE to listen. I have lost £70,000 of my family's money.....we are not a family that can cover this and move on quickly.

Secondly, mine is not an isolated case...a great many of Cabair students paid up front. And why wouldnt we????.......(wait 'til the end of the post to tell us how stooopid we were)

So....with regards to research....okay......lets take this one on first.....

I went to the Flyer trade fair at T5; sat through the seminars by FlyBe who COMPLETELY AND UNRESERVEDLY endorsed Cabair. The Chief of Air Crew who stood and said they were sending their Cadets to Cranfield because of "Cabair's stellar reputation for training 'excellent' Pilots" (DIRECT QUOTE). This was in 2010. I was duly impressed by this. I then did my pre-selection with GAPAN - something that was NOT necessary, and something that I did not want to do but something to keep my dad happy (an ex-RAF pilot and my main 'sponsor', whose confidence in GAPAN was unshakable, because it was "just the same as OASC @ RAF CRANWELL") after paying a few hundred pounds.

So...like most of my peers...I embarked upon the 'selection' for the only four 'blue ribband' training providers of Integrated ATPL(A) courses. Some were 'harder' than others; atleast one was EXACTLY the same as the RAF's Officer and Aircrew Selection Centre at Cranwell. I threw myself into all of it. In six weeks I had EASILY passed three of the UK based selection centres, the RAF OASC and the further AIB. I did not complete the process for the 'Spanish based one...'... because it was taking too long...I hope you'll respect me for not naming names of FTO's.

"......Ive got no sympathy.....you should have known that a financial outlay of that magnitude would have come with inheritant risks......"

Yep, fair enough....all I can say in response of that is this.....I am not Business/Financial minded. I am a Maths Graduate. Cabair had been training Airline Pilots for over thirty years. Why would I be suspicious? Cabair seemed just as good as the rest...albeit for their shoddy Ground School premises (but was run by one of the finest gentleman I have ever had the pleasure to have met, PAUL HARDIE).

It would seem that the "solid research" you are all referring to....... is to this site's 'comments' and 'forums', which amounts to little more than gossip...??

I was approached at the T5 fair by J**_****** of Greece who offered a complete Ab-Initio ATPL(A) with a Type Rating for £50,000. I obviously did my research on this and made the conclusion that anything that sounded "too good to be true" probably is..... (Incidentally, this school is still operating....how..??..in Greece....?...Surely the Govt. cant cover the extra thousands and thousands of pounds its students will face?????). Cabair, in comparison to this fly-by-night operation, and others like it... EagleJet et al, seemed like a decent BRITISH, reliable and stable set-up.

So, if you or your son/daughter were in my position, at the time..... FlyBe announcing they were sending ALL of their cadets to Cranfield etc....BA's Chief Pilot announcing there was to be a "Pilot shortage by 2025" (whilst dotting the I's and crossing the T's on BA's first 'sponsorship scheme in almost 15 years).......a completely reputable Integrated Training Provider explaining that if "you paid everything, you could just burn through it quickly and have no stress or distractions, or fuel surcharges"....would you not have been taken in?......

....I'm sure GA """"pilots"""", who stoke rumours and who can work with hindsight because they obviously have an ability everyone else doesn't could have predicted this....."

........but I think, as a 22 year old, dealing with a 40 year old reputable, CAA accredited, integrated FTO, who has trained Pilots for EVERY decent airline in the world could not have seen this coming.

You all can slate me, take the pi$$, or hammer me, my peers, and our parents for "paying up front". Perspective and Hindsight are wonderful things when, and if, you have them....

I make NO, and I repeat NO, NO, NO, NO, NO apologies for any 'hurt' feelings or pride from my first post. If you are not "in the know", in the industry, a student, an instructor, someone who can help.....why bother chipping in?

My message to any of you 'keyboard warriors and arm-chair pilots' is this.........

......over 40 Cabair Students are over 50K down. Cabair WAS a respectable, if cheaper, brand. Maybe we were naive to pay all up front. I'm not the only one who paid in advance, and I doubt any of my peers who have lost life-changing amounts of money will be posting here. BUT, we are committed, bright, young lads/girls and we WILL make the best of this. I'm sure in two years you bitter, twisted people people will still be reading this and still be thinking of a 'witty retort'.

GOOD LUCK GUYS. KEEP THE DREAM GOING AND DONT LET THE BASTARDS GET YOU DOWN.......

BigGrecian

3rd Mar 2012, 15:10

Cabair WAS a respectable

When? In the 80s and 90s yes - but not for the past 5-6 years.

You may have brought into their "marketing" but if you had asked around you would have found this simply wasn't true anymore.

G-STRX

3rd Mar 2012, 16:54

I may have "brought" into their marketing?......(dubious face to your dubious grammar)

Kuwaiti Airlines, RBA and our very own FlyBe may have an issue with your argument against Cabair's 'recent' reputation......

Dan the weegie

3rd Mar 2012, 17:58

Thing is though, I've known the writing has been on the wall for Cabair for 3 years and it really has - not on the basis of what I've heard here but the same thoughts have been echoed here by people who, as you will come to find, may well be 'keyboard warriors' but are also experienced airline pilots, engineers and instructors. One of the the problems with many pilots is they feel the need to be "right" all the time and it's often very black and white for them. The rightness of anything is always dependent on the situation.

I wouldn't say that your assessment of the training situation was wrong, I wouldn't have been shocked if the quality of training is fine - it usually is at most flying schools in the UK. But your understanding of the financial situation was flawed and your need to be right about how good the training was may well have blinded you to that very fact. What you need to do now is decide whether you want to keep on training, if you do then fine but remember the following.

The Internet is indelible and it's most definitely not anonymous. The flying industry is extremely small. You would not believe the number of "important" pilots that read and post on this very forum so before you post anything, have the good sense to temper it with a little humility. You may get found out and at the moment you're not coming across well at all.