Qantas grounding?

[rh200]

Qantas grounds entire fleet - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-29/qantas-locking-out-staff/3608250)

Looks like their really playing hardball, wonder who's going to blink.

[crewmeal]

QANTAS CEO Alan Joyce has announced it is grounding the entire mainline operation effective 1700 Local Time 29OCT11. The oneWorld member is grounding all of its 108 International and Domestic mainline aircraft, and will lock out employee members from the following unions from 2000LT 31OCT11: ALAEA, TWU, AIPA. These are responsible for operating and maintaining the aircraft.

JetStar, JetConnect (operating Trans-Tasman Service) and QANTASLink service will maintain operation.

Just in from airlineroute.net

[Skillsy]

ALAEA, TWU, AIPA members have been informed they are not to turn up to work and will not be paid. Other QANTAS staff have been told to turn up and will be paid.

The full details at QANTAS (http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn/au/publicaffairs/details?ArticleID=2011/oct11/5218) edit: The date appears to be correct however all planes were grounded on Saturday 29th at 5pm or at their next stop)


Sydney, 29 October 2011

Qantas today announced that, from 8pm AEDT on Monday 31 October 2011, it will lock out all employees who will be covered by the industrial agreements currently being negotiated with the Australian Licenced Engineers Union (ALAEA), the Transport Workers Union (TWU) and the Australian and International Pilots Union (AIPA).

This step is being taken under the provisions of the Fair Work Act in response to industrial action taken by these unions. The financial impact of action taken to date has reached $68 million and the action is costing Qantas approximately $15 million per week in lost revenue. Approximately 70,000 passengers have been affected and more than 600 flights cancelled.

Pilots, licenced engineers and baggage, ground and catering staff are essential to Qantas operations and the lock-out will therefore make it necessary for all Qantas aircraft to be grounded. For precautionary reasons, this will take place immediately (as at 5pm AEDT, Saturday 29 October 2011).

Aircraft currently in the air will complete the sectors they are operating. However, there will be no further Qantas domestic departures or international departures anywhere in the world. This will have an estimated financial impact on Qantas of $20 million per day.

The lock-out will continue until the ALAEA, the TWU and AIPA drop the extreme demands that have made it impossible for agreements to be reached.

Jetstar flights, QantasLink flights and Qantas flights across the Tasman operated by Jetconnect will continue. Express Freighters Australia and Atlas Freighters will also continue to operate.

Requirements for employees are as follows:

- Until the lock-out commences, all employees are required at work as normal and will be paid.
- Once the lock-out commences:
- employees who are locked out will not be required at work and will not be paid.
- employees working overseas will not be locked out and will continue to be paid.
- all other employees are required at work and will be paid as normal.

Customers booked on Qantas flights should not go to the airport until further notice. A full refund will be available to any customer who chooses to cancel their flight because it has been directly affected by the grounding of the fleet. Full rebooking flexibility will be available to customers who wish to defer their travel.

Assistance with accommodation and alternative flights, as well as other support, will be offered to customers who are mid-journey.

Customers should monitor qantas.com for the latest updates. The latest information will also be posted on Qantas’ Twitter and Facebook accounts.

Only customers travelling within the next 24 hours should call Qantas contact centres (on 13 13 13).

Qantas regrets that this action has become necessary and apologises sincerely to all affected passengers.

[Hobo]

See QF media release here. (http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn/au/publicaffairs/details?ArticleID=2011/oct11/5218)

[OverRun]

Excellent. This is the only strategy that gives Qantas a chance of surviving. Joyce has big balls.

Who am I?
One of the very few that picked the Ansett collapse before it happened, and after hard work, was lucky enough to have only lost tens of thousands of dollars.

[rh200]

Excellent. This is the only strategy that gives Qantas a chance of surviving. Joyce has big balls.They big, but he should be weary of loosing them, guess Julia will have to get involved now. Am I overstating this, but is it a game of who blinks first, or could they actually shut up shop.

[fdr]

So the leprechaun has thrown a hissy fit!

89 didn't work out so well for the investors, wonder if anyone learnt anything.

When the share price hits $0.02, I think I will buy the company, just need to check my mastercard limit first...

Good news:ok: is that there are lots of jobs out there for people interested in working anywhere but AUS. Bad news is, you will need to work for a living {ROFL}. Hear that Jet star will need lots of pilots, :rolleyes: wonder where they will get spare guys cheaply to abuse in Singapore or Malaysia:=.

Interesting development, once the airline refunds the outstanding fares, pays redundancy to all parties that are not part of the dispute, the shareholders will get a great opportunity to see whether the Jetstar brand can pay its own way without being a cancer on the butt of Qantas. Now that would be a miracle. :}

Good luck boys and girls, fights on apparently.

Virgin, you got a great opportunity from your competitors, [again...] don't fritter it away!

:ok:

[fdr]

68M is peanuts in comparison to the removal of the complete workforce. QFA will take an enormous time to regenerate flight capability should those "locked out" choose to depart. As a group, there is work out there for B737/B744 and B767 guys, as well as A330, with the B737 and A330 being the greatest demand. The engineers are in demand in many areas, but frankly, as a group you have been abused since the early 90's and I continue to wonder why any remain in the industry.

A full shut down will cost in the order of 1.2B in refunds, and around 120-140m a week in fixed costs. QFA may well cease to exist:ugh:, (and of course, in such an event, so will Jetstar:)). The vacuum will be filled eagerly by existing external international capacity, and by virgin domestically. No 3rd party carrier is going to need to provide ACMI capacity to QFA, they do not need to, they will just bury them :D. Open skies, great concept!

To the institutional investors; you are getting what you paid for, your investment is circling the drain, and you were warned repeatedly of the lunacy of the management team and chose to close ranks. Well done. You may well have just killed another Australian icon.

[OverRun]

fdr - good post. Reality is that there may be no more Qantas - ever.

[rh200]

Lucky they got that board meeting and Joyce's pay rise in first.:E

[Nervous SLF]

Sorry to intrude but here in NZ it has been reported that Qantas is losing $15m a week but the CEO has just been given a 71 per cent pay rise. How can they afford that?

[OverRun]

Unless you are running an airline, you cannot fully comprehend the leverage involved.

Cosmic and beyond belief.

A small change in operations - losing a flight - is an enormous amount of money. Lose a flight - 160 seats @ $300 average = $48,000. Lose 1000 flights in a day and that is $48 million. Try that for a week, and it is $336 million. There simply isn't that much in the biccie tin to cover it.

BTW what arsehole said that Qantas should be privatised?

[rh200]

Mind you D!ckie has another view on it

High-cost kangaroo of Qantas cannot continue, says Dick Smith | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/high-cost-kangaroo-of-qantas-cannot-continue-says-dick-smith/story-e6freuy9-1226179961218)

We all like the uber cheap fare's etc.

[HalloweenJack]

could jetstar pick up any of the slack? or qantaslink?

[3 Holer]

This is not new. Ansett and Australian management did the same thing in '89.
Qantas PR are also copying the tactics used in '89 - bad unions, holding hard working Australians to ransom, etc,. etc,.
Difference here is the unions are carrying on with legal, protected industrial action sanctioned by Fair Work Australia.
Once the Airline starts locking out workers and pleading with the Government to step in, you KNOW they are on the back foot.
I am not a betting man but I know who I would put my money on to blink first!

[paulg]

There has been minimal industrial action by unions involved. In fact the pilots have not gone on strike at all. The losses in revenue to date have been mostly avoidable by management. I believe there is an agenda by management to close down the Qantas brand in favour of Jetstar and/or other subsidiaries with a view to reducing overheads.

[fdr]

"open Skies" equates to arbitrage. The Australian public get what they asked for, the standards attained by the lowest workforce, and the associated brown paper bag experience.

Irrespective of what the travelling public may be told, the standards of the visiting airlines to Australia is highly variable, some are competent, some are a disgrace, and the compliance checking that occurs is a white wash supporting the open skies policy, and as well, the "affordable safety" introduced by an australian "character".

Dick Smith is correct in his observation that QF needs to compete, that is not rocket science (fortunately). What is the issue here is that management has undertaken an organised and concerted program to offshore the whole airline, while pointedly refusing to implement the rational cost savings that were readily obtainable, and that have invariably been taken up by their competition.

The bottom line remains that Jetstar Pacific is the poster boy of why the leprechaun needs to make sure that he isn't smoking whatever he is presently smoking while entering Singapore... :=

Win or lose, short or long, the members of QFA have been shown in no uncertain term what your company thinks of you. If you remain in the employ of abusers, then you are your master of your own fate.

[Teal]

It seems that CEO Joyce, emboldened by his 71% pay rise (opposed by the Australian Shareholders Association but endorsed by institutional investors at the AGM last week) is determined to crash or crash through.

Another sad day in Australian commercial aviation and likely to all end in tears yet again.....

[Phalanger]

There has been minimal industrial action by unions involved. In fact the pilots have not gone on strike at all. The losses in revenue to date have been mostly avoidable by management. I believe there is an agenda by management to close down the Qantas brand in favour of Jetstar and/or other subsidiaries with a view to reducing overheads.

Saying you will go on strike so the flights are cancelled then pulling out at the last second is as good as going on strike. If labour was not in power right now the laws would of been changed to recognise this tactic a while ago.

[Archer2002]

The timing of the board meeting and the shutdown co-incidence? I dont think so Tim.

[jpilotj]

I find a few things a bit incomprehensible about the whole situation with the recent turn of events...

The first being Joyce's 71% pay increase. If the company is battling, how can the "leader" justify any of his claims to move jobs off shore, restructure, etc. The revamping of the Qantas structure should see Joyce cop the losses as much as any of the other staff are.

There was an article in the most recent Australian Aviation magazine which talked about re nationalising QANTAS... Maybe this would be the only option now if the government does not want the global image destroyed and the knock on effect to Australian tourism to impact the economy further.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Aircraft currently in the air will complete the sectors they are operating.

As opposed to the crew bailing out mid flight????

On a more serious note. This seems to be a game of who will blink first

[ballyhoo]

As a former employee, (CSM), I watch with interest. What a well timed intervention, to rally the cause to shift the brand, and call on the assistance of a desperate Govt. Last time I checked didn't they remove the independent umpire, oh what was it called, that's right, the industrial relations Commissioner? Should have thought ahead Labour....Last time I checked a Labour govt should be on side with the Unions, not a private enterprise. Which always had me confiused when I was employed by QF why the majority of staff continued to vote for Labour. I can't help but think this has all been orchestrated. QF want to direct their business to Jetstar, and dissolve the QF brand, no brainer! All the financial analysts predicted this when Jetstar was born. WOW! Don't know about the average Australian but I could prosper on an income of $2million, what I could do with an additonal $3million....

[drflight]

I am not sure was wise of Mr. Joyce, the Qantas CEO, to shut down the airline whilst the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting is taking place in Perth. This has now brought Qantas into confrontation with the Federal Government as well as the unions.

[StallBoy]

QANTAS has been an ongoing disaster since it was privatised by the worlds first greatest treasurer:{. The board plunders the profits for itself and has never made a smart decision. :( Good luck to the QANTAS staff you have now joined the brave new world of free enterprise and globalisation that most australian workers faced under the hawk and keating governments. Welcome to the real world. :eek:

[mustafagander]

Ground the airline the day after the AGM, what a coincidence!

I guess red ties really clash with AJ's colour sense!

[topendtorque]

now we will see how good he is as Minister for sheds (for the grounded planes like) more LOL

excellent timing with half of the cabinet and staffers in Perth. heaps more LOL

I remember too well the Ansett strike, very nearly sent us (helicopter tourism at that time) to the wall. 57 businesses in the main street of Cairns did shut doiwn - broke. no bloody laughter here IMHO.

[Cloud Cuckooland]

Friend of mine who works for QF passed on this as the reason for the "lockout".

This was apparently the text of the email sent to QF Pilots:

Take notice that:
In accordance with section 414(5) of the Fair Work Act 2009 (Cth), Qantas Airways Limited (Qantas) hereby gives notice of a lock out of employees of Qantas who will be covered by the proposed Qantas Airways Limited Flight Crew (Long Haul) Enterprise Agreement 8 (EA 8) in accordance with the provisions of this notice below.
The lockout is organised and engaged in as a response to the following industrial action:
• ongoing ban relating to compliance with the Qantas uniform policy and substitution with an AIPA approved uniform policy; and
• ongoing ban relating to compliance with Qantas cabin announcement policy and substitution with an AIPA approved announcement.


So let me see....... wearing red ties with the slogan "QANTAS flight, QANTAS Pilot" and making a 30 sec. announcement seems like a good reason to ground an airline- not.

Militant pilots or militant management - you decide.

[rh200]

Militant pilots or militant management - you decide


I think the pilots action was irrelavent, they where just the cream on the excuse cake. Killing two (or is it three) birds with one stone, and a whole lot of collateral damage.

[cheapendale]

Certainly agree that the timing is bad but I guess that it is tactical. With CHOGM in progress, the publicity ( good or bad ) and the pressure on the Labour government will work in Joyce's favour.

1989 and what's happening now occur under Labour's watch; big business certainly win outright. The guerilla tactics of industrial action by the pilots and other unions certainly played into the hands of the management in that they demonise their actions in the eyes of the public.

Will Australia be bold enough to really kill off QF and really start anew?

[aseanaero]

This is not new. Ansett and Australian management did the same thing in '89.
Qantas PR are also copying the tactics used in '89 - bad unions, holding hard working Australians to ransom, etc,. etc,.
Difference here is the unions are carrying on with legal, protected industrial action sanctioned by Fair Work Australia.
Once the Airline starts locking out workers and pleading with the Government to step in, you KNOW they are on the back foot.
I am not a betting man but I know who I would put my money on to blink first!

Seriously , to give yourself a 71% payrise then tell staff they are being unrealistic with their wage demands is just PISS POOR LEADERSHIP , Joyce is an idiot that needs to be taken out of Qantas.

[Sqwak7700]

Best of luck my friends. I salute you for standing up to greed, which knows no political or geographical boundaries.

These short term managers are more than happy charging first world prices but not so hot on paying first world employees. An epidemic which will soon see them hanging upside down in the town squares all around the world.

I wish you the best of luck and stand strong and united against these :mad:.

[aseanaero]

As a business owner the management have really shot themselves in the foot with massive pay rises , what a truly stupid move.

I'm not an ex Qantas employee but I'm with the staff on this one.

[KAG]

Looks like a very childish decision from the CEO.

[StoneColdJaneAusten]

Hear hear sqwawk, aseanaero. This is obvious and deliberate union busting. There's absolutely no other reason for the shutdown.

Be strong TWU / AIPA / ALAEA members and keep fighting. If Alan's allowed to get away with this we're all screwed.

[Jamair]

I am not usually union orientated but this Joyce guy is just a prize goose. Best wishes to all the workers.

[vctenderness]

Looks to me like Mr Joyce has been chatting to his mate Willy!

I put my money on Qantas 'winning' this one if winning is the right term when both sides will lose in spades.

[pngfop]

Alan Joyce get a pay rise, employees can't pay their mortgage. What a #$!*er

[MaxTOW]

Seriously , to give yourself a 71% payrise then tell staff they are being unrealistic with their wage demands is just PISS POOR LEADERSHIP , Joyce is an idiot that needs to be taken out of Qantas. It would have been cheaper to just listen ....

If other people can't see the hypocrisy that Joyce is exhibiting, the above (quoted) statement makes it fairly clear. I get the feeling that all concerned are making some fair comments here (you won't see Joyce on here will you?); but that opinions like those of Dick Smith are going to play out. DS can see the owners point of view; but in this situation who is the owner? Shareholders? A disconnected CEO who doesn't sound Australian is at the helm and is likely to put an end to the name that was once called the worlds safest airline (thats the bit that cuts). And for extra millions to him ?!? Don't look for leadership from elsewhere; Julia is about to join the ranks of those other two politician fwits in her political past. Oh well - bring on the dumbed down beef trucks that airlines are becoming .. maybe the kangaroo has become a dinosaur. Can't wait to sit in one of those vertical seats and pay for every gram of bags, and get frisked or cavity checked beforehand on my next ride - NOT.

[Dani]

That's the difference between a mighty airline and a doomed low cost carrier: While Qantas is able to ground themselves, Tiger needs for the same some help :\

[coopsanddi]

I was told this was in the pipe works 12 Months ago from a pretty good source within QANTAS. I didn't believe them but it sounds like its all falling into place for the big wigs at QANTAS, they want the airline to go arse up and the unions who thought they had a handfull of aces are in fact playing with a handfull of Jokers, playing right into the QANTAS hierachy hands. Jetstar are to take over apparantly with the 787 internationally leaving the A380 to cover the Eastern Seaboard to LA. Be interesting to see if this happens as my source has been correct so far. It's a shame really, I really love the iconic brand. When your overseas and it's time to return home after a few weeks away, nothing beats walking down the terminal stopping at the gate to see that big white jet with the red tail and the white kangaroo, knowing your heading home. How do we save our Airline? Because lets face it, it is our airline, Australia's airline......or is it????

[fdr]

would think that ASIC would be rather interested in a proposal to wreak havoc on the share price of a publicly traded company... ? Additionally, a preplanned action that materially affects the trading position of the company planned 12 months before the act, that is then conducted the day after the AGM without advice to the shareholders....

[G-CPTN]

Seems they waited until HM the Queen left, but some of the Commonwealth leaders and ministers have been 'caught' I believe.

Commonwealth leaders stranded by Qantas grounding - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-29/qantas-grounding-strands-commonwealth-leaders/3608334)

[green granite]

It's obviously not a sensible strategy otherwise Willie Walsh would have used it in the cabin crew dispute at BA.

[TZ350]

None of the major cable news channels have mentioned that c:mad:t Joyces 71%
pay rise .

I hope the unions put that information out to the world pretty damn quick, that should
sink the "offshore/ outsourcing cost cutting is necessary to save Qantas " arguement.

[gardenshed]

Good luck to all the staff on this one, how many times have we all heard the management speak that they have to pay "top dollar" to obtain the idiots who run these companies into the ground.
Then when it comes to the staff pay "Oh no we cannot afford more that X%" so as to appease the shareholders and allow management to award themselves 71% pay awards.

[Self Loading Freight]

So the Qantas management have chosen to leave many thousands of customers deep in the poo?

That'll work out well.

[Mick Stability]

BA offering rebook concesiions until 31st October.

There you have it then. Three day pissing contest.

Dinosaurs.

[Bobbsy]

The Qantas media machine is attempting to blame the unions.

However, basied on a few non-aviation forums I visit, the reaction from the SLF public is not buying it and most comments are anti-management and pro union.

...a relatively small sample though.

[aseanaero]

Like it or not airlines are a price sensitive commodity and commodities are traded, its all about money . Win or lose Joyce will get a fat pay cheque , Qantas will never be the same and a lot of people are going to lose their jobs. This is not a knee jerk reaction I feel to ground the airline , ducks are in a row . What I think would be interestrng is to see what large purchases and sales of airline shares have been made in the last month . Who is really pulling the strings ?

[thewinchester]

First time poster, infrequent outside observer. Please be gentle.

This is text I posted to another forum of relevance, mainly relevant to flyers, outlining Joyce's remuneration package, the union claims, and the QF issues. I'm reposting it here due it it's relevance to some of the points already raised.

Some of the references are a little Australian, for example the waterfront dispute, but you can find out what these are about with a google search.

And don't shoot me down for expressing a view about Joyce's suitability and results. This was yesterday, and my view has shifted a little since then in light of today's action.

Further, any negative comments expressed are targeted at other unions and not necessarily AIPA, who I note has had reasonable demands and haven't been all that disruptive compared to others.

Having just watched the AGM webcast and seen James Strong (Chairman, Remuneration Committee) lay this issue out in detail - the assertion that Joyce is getting "such an obscene increase" is without merit.


The claims that he is getting a 71% pay rise are false, completely misrepresent the pay structure of the companies CEO, and re-affirms QF's decision to implement a salary package of which the majority is an at-risk component.

For those not familiar with at-risk in the context of salary packages, this means that receipt of a designated amount of the salary is entirely dependant on achieving specific, measurable goals for corporate performance. Think of it as the executive version of commission based pay.

Joyce's salary package for FY2010/11 is set at AUD 6.02m, of which AUD 2.04m is cash salary. Frankly, on the basis of the work he has done to date trying to strengthen the business and diversify to improve revenue, he's earned every cent.

The remaining AUD 3.98m is only payable when Joyce has delivered against the medium and long term targets set as part of his remuneration package, which was voted on and approved at their AGM last year. I wasn't able to discern from the meeting if the allocation of ~1.7m shares (which form part of the Qantas Long Term Incentive Plan - LTIP) is reliant on the meeting of goals and forms part of the AUD 3.98m figure.

Targets set for Joyce to earn that additional AUD 3.98m and the LTIP shares are pretty steep, and include a number of metrics rating QF's performance against the ASX/S&P Top 100, and the basket of globally listed airlines. A bit more info about this can be found in the notice of meeting for today's AGM (See pg. 4, col 2).

Further, any award of shares to Joyce under the LTIP has to be approved by a vote of shareholders at an AGM. I'd happily wager that if institutional investors weren't happy with the CEO's performance, they'd be doing a lot more than voting done a LTIP motion at an AGM.

Further, let's get back to why the airline hasn't reached agreement with the engineers, ground staff and pilots union. It's because these groups are wanting to impose conditions as part of an industrial relations agreement which enshrine old and redundant work practices, and could reasonably prevent the airline from seeking out lawful opportunities to grow the company which would in turn help deliver the job security they so desperately desire.

And I've already covered the legal issues regarding this in another thread, looking at how such conditions could be a plain text breach of the Competition Act subject to the union meeting the criteria for the activities test which would enable this to be classified as restrictive conduct.

Unions in this country have for at least the last 30yrs been heavily resistant to change. We just have to look at the waterfront disputes during the 90's and the significant work done by the previous Federal Government to break apart the stranglehold of the Building and Construction unions.

I'm all for people getting job security, but what I won't, nor do I expect Qantas to stand for, is allowing these groups to hold it to ransom and acting for themselves rather than the greater good. The unions [and not necessarily the pilots whose demands seemed reasonable] need to grow up, and realise it's high time for their industrial practices to move on.

[FlightCosting]

The problem nowadays is that airlines are run by bean counters and not by aviation professionals. You get a CEO (appointed by a board made up of investors who know SFA about the business) who knows SFA about the airline business, who then gets rid of anybody who knows anything about the airline business in case they might show up his total lack of capability. Swiss Air anybody?

I'm glad I got out of that side of the business 35 years ago when airlines where still run by professionals who had moved up through the ranks and got years of practical experience before they took over the top job. It used to be said that Airline industry was one of the few that you could never learn from books, only by hand on experience. Nowadays it seems that you can become chief pilot 10 minutes after you get your PPL:bored:

[JamesGBC]

As a regular long haul passenger I tried booking a flight HGK to FRA this week did not even think of Qantas despite being an Australian expat and Emirates appalling timetable to Europe. Reading of the pay rise before this moment of total madness was bad enough as a business owner (not a CEO) what was he thinking of. I was also so shocked I looked at his employment history and then wondered how did he get this job? He complains that Australia is the end of the line and not an Asian hub when flights from the HK and Singapore airports can be booked another misleading statement. I’m glad I’m booked this month as flights will be premium price now. Maybe get a good discount for next months flight if I book Qantas.

If I was booked on a Qantas flight I would be a bit (words not allowed) never mind being in the queue at 3.00pm after a 3 hour journey to the airport a few hours packing and a week’s planning to be told sorry closed. I only hope that the staff were not abused, Interesting you could still book flights on the website tonight for tomorrow, you can get a nice hotel in HK for $350. Share price Monday morning is going to be interesting given his reported $10 million looks like he just lost his pay rise next two years.

[ABAT4t2]

You can have heavily unionised under performing airlines or you can have cheap flights but not both, unfortunately the travelling public that pay our wages seem to prefer the latter....

utter rubbish and incorrect comparison.

When exactly did southwest last make a loss?

[36050100]

Sorry to be really thick about this, but are Qantas really dumping crews at outstations ?? If so, my commiserations to all passengers and crew left in the lurch...

[deltabravo]

Can anyone outline the action taken so far and action planned by each of the groups involved?

This seems like a massive overreaction, not sure how the management can justify it to their customers.

[Viking101]

Well the CEO can blame it himself. If you give yourself a bonus of 2.000.000$ aus, of course you p*ss on your own people. And thats what you get.

What surprises me is that he doesn't seem to care too much about the airline. Willy Walsh turned it around after lots of struggle but can't recall he gave himself a fat bonus during the fights.

What are the odds he gives back the bonus to start fresh with negotiations with the union?

Problem remains with all CEOs, they milk their own airline/ company before they leave. And that I hate with a passion.

Fire the guy!

[malr]

What is the 30 second announcement that the crews were doing that upset the management? Were they slamming on the airline?

[crewmeal]

What will happen to the poor crews stuck around the world. Wouldn't surprise me if AJ chucked them out of the hotels and told them to make their own way back to OZ!

[Class_Y]

For those not familiar with law:

Strikes and lockouts are just different sides of the same coin. Having both, secures the parity between unions and companies.

Both parties start the dispute at their own risk, e.g.:

- The union has to pay the wages out of their own cash box
- The company will loose turnover and ultimately loose customers

Having one side stripped of their rights, will lead to a dangerous imbalance. Take a look at the UK, after the "Iron Lady" manged to destroy the power of the trade unions for decades...

[GrahamO]

The first being Joyce's 71% pay increase. If the company is battling, how can the "leader" justify any of his claims to move jobs off shore, restructure, etc.

Because he is paid to look after the long term interest of the shareholders, not the staff of today.

Some people are incentivised to grow top line figures etc, and like it or not, some are incentivised to cut out dead wood and the like, effectively shrinking revenues, staff numbers and losing money in the short term.

Its not rocket science but many fail to understand his role is about business, not keeping Australians employed in a dying company.

(Sorry of I am not supposed to post here but it does amaze me how many times this misunderstanding is raised in circumstances such as these.)

[STN Ramp Rat]

What will happen to the poor crews stuck around the world. Wouldn't surprise me if AJ chucked them out of the hotels and told them to make their own way back to OZ!

Sorry to be really thick about this, but are Qantas really dumping crews at outstations ?? If so, my commiserations to all passengers and crew left in the lurch...

to save you the trouble of reading the entire thread reply number 3 by Skillsy states that staff overseas will not be locked out and will continue to be paid.

[The Old Fat One]

You can have heavily unionised under performing airlines or you can have cheap flights but not both, unfortunately the travelling public that pay our wages seem to prefer the latter....

Simple, insightful and oh so true. Pity so many people cannot get their head around this simple reality.

[NephewBob]

Yes, if you believe in socialism....not really if you believe in private property.

Alternatively would you like the Federal government (taxpayer) to buy all the outstanding (relatively cheap at the moment) shares? That has not worked, (socialism, or taxpayer bailouts) ever in history by the way.

Actually, the owners of Qantas are the shareholders, so it is not really your airline, and they are the ones risking their savings for profit or loss. Would you like to buy some stock in the company? Feel free, you are only one computer click away from being an owner.

Who did TWA or the Iconic Pan American world airways belong to? (and many others....ad infititum)

Of course nowadays Obama would probably say the unions using GM & Chrysler as an example.

Anyway, the future of Qantas & stakeholders (& shareholders)? I would go long on the stock, about late next week, could be the bottom. (I don't own any Shares, QAN.AX on NYE) as of today)

When I was a youngster......I did not always believe that history would repeat itself....now that I am older, I am not so sure.

"History does not always repeat, but it often rhymes"
-Mark Twain

[lomapaseo]

Interesting read. although quite predictable in an aviation forum.

All parties will be harmed, including the public.

The workers blame management and management blames the unionfied demands of the workers.

But to blame a single person (joyce) is ridiculous, no matter what he is paid.

I doubt that an outsider is going to show any sympathy towards the workers for the CEO pay arguments

If I were the CEO I would volunteer to give up my salary for a year if that were to solve the dispute, it won't so live with the result and arbitrate on different issues.

[malr]

You can have heavily unionised under performing airlines or you can have cheap flights but not both, unfortunately the travelling public that pay our wages seem to prefer the latter....


Simple, insightful and oh so true. Pity so many people cannot get their head around this simple reality.

*cough* Southwest? *cough*

[glhcarl]

Having "no dog" in this fight I would like to ask a couple of questions:

1. What was Joyce's salary before the 71% raise and what is it after he got a 71% raise?

2. Did he unilaterally grant himself the raise?

3. Did he unilaterally shut down the the airline?

4. When a Qantas worker gets their pay check who's bank account is that check dawn on, the unions or Qantas?

[Viking101]

So how will the CEO become a better CEO by giving himself 2 mills as a bonus??????????????

How will that help the company?

Its ridiculous that one man can give himself a pay rise. If he can, why cant I?
And he is not worth that either, to be added...


He is to blame for all this mess Qantas is in. As I said before, Walsh didnt do any of these stupid things during negotiations, and he turned it around.

[yardman]

For those of you thinking of bailing out, Emirates is aggressively hiring pilots and engineers if you're interested. Good luck to you all.

[glhcarl]

Yiking101,
So how will the CEO become a better CEO by giving himself 2 mills as a bonus??????????????

2 mills, dosen't sound like much of a raise?

What is a “mill” anyway?

A. One mill is equal to one tenth of one penny or one 1/1000 of a dollar.

[ExSp33db1rd]

What will happen to the poor crews stuck around the world. Wouldn't surprise me if AJ chucked them out of the hotels and told them to make their own way back to OZ!

to save you the trouble of reading the entire thread reply number 3 by Skillsy states that staff overseas will not be locked out and will continue to be paid.

In the one strike I was involved in whilst overseas, we had been briefed by the strike callers that when asked by local management - and they did ask - that we were not on strike and if they produced an aeroplane we would fly it.

The strike only grounded all aircraft out of Base, those overseas at the time returned then stopped, our hotel bills were met until the local management had had enough of us, then they sent us home on other carriers at their ( management ) expense, so the lads overseas were looked after until they got home, then they had to make a decision.

Not supporting any argument, just saying what happened.

A very sad day, no-one will "win"

[Torres]

Qantas Australian controlled?

1. J P Morgan Nominees Australia 514,714,244 shares 22.72%
2. HSBC Custody Nominees (Australia) Limited 428,322,920 shares 18.91%
3. National Nominees Limited 413,707,968 shares 18.26%
4. Citicorp Nominees Pty Limited 253,053,991 shares 11.17%

Leigh Clifford and Alan Joyce have been planning the grounding for many months with key staff positioned world wide and block hotel bookings confirmed in Australia and world wide weeks ago.

All this a day after the Qantas AGM where Joyce picked up 71% or $3 mill per annum pay increase.

[cactusbusdrvr]

I don't care how bang up a job a CEO does. Making 5 million per year is just bullcrap. When did it become fashionable to pay a CEO a hundred or a thousand times more than your line employees?

What has happened is that management has siphoned profit out of a company for their own gain and have not allowed the line employee the chance to participate in the company's success. Industry after industry have seen this scenario play out. At some point there will be no one left to support all those service jobs that remain in our "first world" countries. We all can't work at Starbucks.

[Pinkman]

What is the 30 second announcement that the crews were doing that upset the management? Were they slamming on the airline?
Flew a couple of sectors with QF (LHR-BKK - 747, SIN-LHR A380) over the last few weeks. I was a bit startled to hear it the first time and made a mental note of it the next. It didnt slam the airline directly but lots of indirect allusion. It basically said that they and their colleagues in the airline strive to be professional, uphold the highest standards of safety for their passengers and were committed to an Australian-based airline (didnt use those words but that was the thrust) etc etc. It went on to refer obliquely to the industrial action and express confidence that the travelling public and passengers would understand and share their aspirations. On one flight it was made by the capt. and on the other by the FO "on behalf of capt. XX". It was about 30 sec as a previous poster said.

[alisoncc]

1. J P Morgan Nominees Australia 514,714,244 shares 22.72%
2. HSBC Custody Nominees (Australia) Limited 428,322,920 shares 18.91%
3. National Nominees Limited 413,707,968 shares 18.26%
4. Citicorp Nominees Pty Limited 253,053,991 shares 11.17%


Bankers, bloody bankers. They stuffed up the US home market, whilst lending funds to countries that couldn't repay leading to the European sovereign debt crisis. How much more of the world's business do they need to stuff up before they get reined in. Join the "Occupy Wall St" movement.

[ZQA297/30]

WW, MOL, AJ.
Is this an Irish thing???? :confused:

[glhcarl]

I don't care how bang up a job a CEO does. Making 5 million per year is just bullcrap. When did it become fashionable to pay a CEO a hundred or a thousand times more than your line employees?


When CEO's have a more than a hundred or thousand times the responsability of a line employee.

The line employed is hired to do a job.

The CEO is hired to run the company.

[Rollingthunder]

Into the ground, it seems, in this case.

Qantas' decision to ground the entire Qantas fleet is "holding a knife to the nation's throat" and CEO Alan Joyce has "gone mad", the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) says.

AIPA vice president Richard Woodward said the move was "premeditated, unnecessary and grossly irresponsible".

"Alan Joyce is holding a knife to the nation's throat," Captain Woodward said.

Advertisement: Story continues below

"No-one predicted this, because no one thought Alan Joyce was completely mad.

"This is a stunning overreaction. It is straight-up blackmail.

"I knew he was trying to kill Qantas, but I didn't know he wanted to do it this quickly.

"This is a grave and serious situation and the board should move to sack Mr Joyce immediately. This is the saddest day of my 25 years with Qantas."

He said AIPA's industrial action has been limited to making brief, positive in-flight announcements and wearing red ties.

"In response to this, Mr Joyce has now locked out every pilot working for Qantas. This is nothing short of crazy behaviour," he said.

"Mr Joyce is stranding thousands of Qantas passengers all across the globe so he can engage in his mad game of one-upmanship. All so he can pursue his delusion that Qantas should be an Asian airline, instead of an Australian one.

"We believe this action is unlawful and we are currently seeking legal advice.

" He has locked out short-haul 737 pilots who aren't even involved in any action at all.

Mr Woodward said this action would have been planned months in advance.

"Let's be clear about this: Mr Joyce would have planned to strand thousands of Qantas passengers all across the globe months ago," he said.

"To ground your entire fleet, when doing so is completely unnecessary, is not the act of a sane and reasonable person.

"He has snatched his ill-deserved millions on Friday and grounded the airline on Saturday.

[jedda]

Does anyone remember 1989?Strong had his face on T.V. every time you turned on.A Labor Government was in power and two great airlines ceased to exist today.
P.S. the Government of the day called in the Airforce.

[aviatorhi]

@glhcarl Well, a base salary of 5 million is just ridiculous. However, if it's based on performance incentives and/or profit margins there's nothing wrong with it.

Given Qantas' financial performance I would wager a guess that this is simply a base salary (making it ridiculous). I can't say definitively though as I haven't found anything saying one way or the other.

Grounding an entire airline though? Over a labor dispute? Sounds like 1870s union busting tactics... or Ryanair.

[Dani]

ok, when an airline takes on against the unions, then it is black mail. When unions black mail the company by endless series of strikes, this is right. Well, now I get it. Strange logic...

[Non Zero]

... and apparently Air France will follow! who else ...

[mmartel]

Anyone know where all the planes are grounded? Would be a good map for our newspaper tomorrow.

[progressing nicely]

alisoncc

1. J P Morgan Nominees Australia 514,714,244 shares 22.72%
2. HSBC Custody Nominees (Australia) Limited 428,322,920 shares 18.91%
3. National Nominees Limited 413,707,968 shares 18.26%
4. Citicorp Nominees Pty Limited 253,053,991 shares 11.17%
Bankers, bloody bankers. They stuffed up the US home market, whilst lending funds to countries that couldn't repay leading to the European sovereign debt crisis. How much more of the world's business do they need to stuff up before they get reined in. Join the "Occupy Wall St" movement.

:confused:

My understanding is that a nominee account is one where the named party holds it on behalf of others which could be individuals, pension funds etc. So although you see the names of banks it is not they who vote or have the economic benefit of holding the shares.

I agree greedy Banks are partly to blame for lending to bad credit risks but surely greedy governments and individuals wanting to spend beyond their means and taking up the credit are equally to blame. It's all to easy to make a single party a scapegoat so everyone else can feel good but the truth is more complicated and the media is not interested in the truth but in keeping circulation and viewing figures up by telling a story that accomplishes that.

[cyclenorm]

I, too, used to believe that CEOs must deserve the pay the get because of the extraordinary responsibilities they bear and the exceptional insights they've gained from their years of experience and training. Then I grew up. CEOs are paid so much because their self-interests coincide with those of the boards and the remuneration consultants they hire to determine their salaries.

Every time they make a decision, they can call on highly paid consultants to advise them and PR people to spin the results of their mistakes. If they do lose their jobs they will have a golden parachute and they know that other company boards and remuneration consultants will not judge them harshly. Can anyone cite an example of a CEO who was not actually jailed for his behaviour who ended up in the unemployment line?

The pilot, engineer, cabin attendant or customer service rep, on the other hand, has to make decisions without consultation all day, knowing that their actions will be judged from above by people and institutions whose main objective is to protect themselves, rather than to reach a fair conclusion. If they follow the company rule book strictly, they'll be judged inflexible. If they bend the rules to account for reality, they'll be judged insubordinate. Either way, they hit the highway!

Marketing calls Qantas "Australia's airline," when it's really owned by bank holding companies. If Qantas goes bung, the CEO will depart by golden parachute. The holding companies scratch a little value off their funders' assets, though they might avoid that by having bet against Qantas in the share market casino. The board members collect their fees and move on to other companies. If Qantas survives (even in the short term), they all collect their bonus and move on.

Because of deference to authority, the majority of customers will always swallow the management line and blame any inconvenience on greedy staff instead of greedy or incompetent management, regardless of the facts.

We need unions because, without them, employees will always lose in a dispute with management.

[Iver]

Can someone explain why the Jetstar, QantasLink and other "related" pilot groups are not striking in support of their Qantas brothers/sisters? That would be typical here in Europe (more leverage) - why does this not happen in AussieLand?

Do Jetstar and the others not have a union? Sorry, a bit unfamiliar with the situation in your beautiful country!

[marchino61]

The banksrs don't own the shares. Note the word "nominees" in the shareholders' names.

This means they hold the shares on behalf of their stockbroking and other clients.

[bitholder]

@ Non Zero; ... and apparently Air France will follow! who else ...

You now something we don't?
:eek:

[Jabiman]

Alternatively would you like the Federal government (taxpayer) to buy all the outstanding (relatively cheap at the moment) shares? That has not worked, (socialism, or taxpayer bailouts) ever in history by the way.
It worked for Obama's bailout of General Motors.
Maybe Joyce is banking on a similar bailout.....too big to fail anyone?

[Aero Mad]

No doubt this experience will teach the trade unions a valuable lesson.

[bitholder]

This is indeed a sad day without precedent in aviation and whatever happens things will never be the same again!.

It is a watershed and (without knowing the particulars) CEO AJ's reaction appears to be way over the top.

:ugh:His pay-rise (on the face of it) seems outrageous under the circumstances.

Also management/union relations must really have hit to floor for things to have escalated to this extent.

Pistols at dawn!

Lets hope management puts it's gun back it the holster or at least gets a good winging by unions next :D, or otherwise as mentioned here earlier we are all screwed

[tail wheel]

Can someone explain why the Jetstar, QantasLink and other "related" pilot groups are not striking in support of their Qantas brothers/sisters? That would be typical here in Europe (more leverage) - why does this not happen in AussieLand?

Because that would be an illegal secondary boycott. JetStar, QantasLink etc are separate airlines, separate AOC's, different pilot union, unrelated EBA.

The banksrs don't own the shares. Note the word "nominees" in the shareholders' names.

This means they hold the shares on behalf of their stockbroking and other clients.

Yes, but they control the shares and decide how to vote at any meeting of the company, as demonstrated at Friday's AGM.

[morton]

This is what ‘JDI’ posted in the DG&P section (August 24-QANTAS, Thread; Post 702). Interesting speech from a neutral (?) observer who is looking to keep the national flag carrier in place and Australians employed.

Senator Xenophon Speach!!!
________________________________________
Xenophon speech
For those who haven't seen it, Senator Xenophon's speech of 23rd Aug is reproduced below.

Senator XENOPHON (South Australia) (19:37): I rise to speak tonight on an issue that is close to the hearts of many Australians, and that is the future of our national carrier, Qantas. At 90, Qantas is the world's oldest continuously running airline. It is an iconic Australian company. Its story is woven into the story of Australia and Australians have long taken pride in the service and safety standards provided by our national carrier. Who didn't feel a little proud when Dustin Hoffman uttered the immortal line in Rain Man, 'Qantas never crashed'?

While it is true that Qantas never crashes, the sad reality is that Qantas is being deliberately trashed by management in the pursuit of short-term profits and at the expense of its workers and passengers. For a long time, Qantas management has been pushing the line that Qantas international is losing money and that Jetstar is profitable. Tonight, it is imperative to expose those claims for the misinformation they are. The reality is that Qantas has long been used to subsidise Jetstar in order to make Jetstar look profitable and Qantas look like a burden. In a moment, I will provide detailed allegations of cost-shifting that I have sourced from within the Qantas Group, and when you know the facts you quickly see a pattern. When there is a cost to be paid, Qantas pays it, and when there is a profit to be made, Jetstar makes it.

But first we need to ask ourselves: why? Why would management want Qantas to look unprofitable? Why would they want to hide the cost of a competing brand within their group, namely Jetstar, in amongst the costs faced by Qantas?

To understand that, you need to go back to the days when Qantas was being privatised. When Qantas was privatised the Qantas Sale Act 1992 imposed a number of conditions, which in turn created a number of problems for any management group that wanted to flog off parts of the business. Basically, Qantas has to maintain its principal place of operations here in Australia, but that does not stop management selling any subsidiaries, which brings us to Jetstar.

Qantas has systematically built up the low-cost carrier at the expense of the parent company. I have been provided with a significant number of examples where costs which should have been billed back to Jetstar have in fact been paid for by Qantas. These are practices that I believe Qantas and Jetstar management need to explain. For example, when Jetstar took over the Cairns-Darwin-Singapore route, replacing Qantas flights, a deal was struck that required Qantas to provide Jetstar with $6 million a year in revenue. Why? Why would one part of the business give up a profitable route like that and then be asked to pay for the privilege? Then there are other subsidies when it comes to freight. On every sector Jetstar operates an A330, Qantas pays $6,200 to $6,400 for freight space regardless of actual uplift. When you do the calculations, this turns out to be a small fortune. Based on 82 departures a week, that is nearly half-a-million dollars a week or $25½ million a year.

Then there are the arrangements within the airport gates. In Melbourne, for example, my information from inside the Qantas group is that Jetstar does not pay for any gates, but instead Qantas domestic is charged for the gates. My question for Qantas management is simple: are these arrangements replicated right around Australia and why is Qantas paying Jetstar's bills? Why does Qantas lease five check-in counters at Sydney Terminal 2, only to let Jetstar use one for free? It has been reported to me that there are other areas where Jetstar's costs magically become Qantas's costs. For example, Jetstar does not have a treasury department and has only one person in government affairs. I am told Qantas's legal department also does free work for Jetstar.

Then there is the area of disruption handling where flights are cancelled and people need to be rebooked. Here, insiders tell me, Qantas handles all rebookings and the traffic is all one way. It is extremely rare for a Qantas passenger to be rebooked on a Jetstar flight, but Jetstar passengers are regularly rebooked onto Qantas flights. I am informed that Jetstar never pays Qantas for the cost of those rebooked passengers and yet Jetstar gets to keep the revenue from the original bookings. This, I am told, is worth millions of dollars every year. So Jetstar gets the profit while Qantas bears the costs of carriage. It has also been reported to me that when Qantas provides an aircraft to Jetstar to cover an unserviceable plane, Jetstar does not pay for the use of this plane.

Yet another example relates to the Qantas Club. Jetstar passengers can and do use the Qantas Club but Jetstar does not pay for the cost of any of this. So is Qantas really losing money? Or is it profitable but simply losing money on paper because it is carrying so many costs incurred by Jetstar? We have been told by Qantas management that the changes that will effectively gut Qantas are necessary because Qantas international is losing money but, given the inside information I have just detailed, I would argue those claims need to be reassessed.

Indeed, given these extensive allegations of hidden costs, it would be foolish to take management's word that Qantas international is losing money. So why would Qantas want to make it look like Qantas international is losing money? Remember the failed 2007 private equity bid by the Allco Finance Group. It was rejected by shareholders, and thank goodness it was, for I am told that what we are seeing now is effectively a strategy of private equity sell-off by stealth.

Here is how it works. You have to keep Qantas flying to avoid breaching the Qantas Sale Act but that does not stop you from moving assets out of Qantas and putting them into an airline that you own but that is not controlled by the Qantas Sale Act. Then you work the figures to make it appear as though the international arm of Qantas is losing money. You use this to justify the slashing of jobs, maintenance standards and employment of foreign crews and, ultimately, the creation of an entirely new airlines to be based in Asia and which will not be called Qantas. The end result? Technically Qantas would still exist but it would end up a shell of its former self and the Qantas Group would end up with all these subsidiaries it can base overseas using poorly paid foreign crews with engineering and safety standards that do not match Australian standards. In time, if the Qantas Group wants to make a buck, they can flog these subsidiaries off for a tidy profit. Qantas management could pay the National Boys Choir and the Australian Girls Choir to run to the desert and sing about still calling Australia home, but people would not buy it. It is not just about feeling good about our national carrier—in times of trouble our national carrier plays a key strategic role. In an international emergency, in a time of war, a national carrier is required to freight resources and people around the country and around the world. Qantas also operates Qantas Defence Services, which conducts work for the RAAF. If Qantas is allowed to wither, who will meet these strategic needs?

I pay tribute to the 35,000 employees of the Qantas Group. At the forefront of the fight against the strategy of Qantas management have been the Qantas pilots, to whom millions of Australians have literally entrusted their lives. The Australian and International Pilots Association sees Qantas management strategy as a race to the bottom when it comes to service and safety. On 8 November last year, QF32 experienced a serious malfunction with the explosion of an engine on an A380 aircraft. In the wrong hands, that plane could have crashed. But it did not, in large part because the Qantas flight crew had been trained to exemplary world-class standards and knew how to cope with such a terrifying reality. I am deeply concerned that what is being pursued may well cause training levels to fall and that as a result safety standards in the Qantas Group may fall as well. AIPA pilots and the licensed aircraft engineers are not fighting for themselves; they are fighting for the Australian public. That is why I am deeply concerned about any action Qantas management may be considering taking against pilots who speak out in the public interest.

A lot of claims have been made about the financial state of Qantas international but given the information I have presented tonight, which has come from within the Qantas Group, I believe these claims by management are crying out for further serious forensic investigation. Qantas should not be allowed to face death by a thousand cuts—job cuts, route cuts, quality cuts, engineering cuts, wage cuts. None of this is acceptable and it must all be resisted for the sake of the pilots, the crews, the passengers and ultimately the future of our national carrier.

[Kangaroo Court]

Morton,

Excellent post! I think the general public are much better informed than they were in 1989 and are less likely to side with QF management.

The fool at the top might have finally fallen on his sword.

[pjac]

You're right "Overrun", QANTAS should never have been privatised-but I don't feel that Joyce is the man for the job. The "Proof of the Pudding" is a regular return to the shareholders-not a litany of blame directed at unions, who incidentally have no ability to defend themselves in the same manner, on the media-when there is, no such reward. At the end of the day, when the airline is gone-who are the losers? Joyce will trot off with his "Golden Handshake" to be hired by some other company-and do the same bad job once more-and there are a few predecessors out there, with the "Teflon Touch".

[KAG]

glhcarl: I don't care how bang up a job a CEO does. Making 5 million per year is just bullcrap. When did it become fashionable to pay a CEO a hundred or a thousand times more than your line employees?


When CEO's have a more than a hundred or thousand times the responsability of a line employee.

The line employed is hired to do a job.

The CEO is hired to run the company.

-How the simple and basic employee faces his reponsabilities: by the possibility to lose his job.
-How the CEO faces his responsabilities? By the possibility to make his employees lose their job. What a joke.
-The 1000 times more responsabilities you are speaking about here means bullcrap when the CEO just decided to stop operations. What a genius's idea! You need to have a nobel prize to have the smartness to make this decision, nobody could have thought about it!
-The 1000 more responsabilities you are talking about here means nothing as the employees take all the consequences.

[malr]

Thanks Pinkman!

Flew a couple of sectors with QF (LHR-BKK - 747, SIN-LHR A380) over the last few weeks. I was a bit startled to hear it the first time and made a mental note of it the next. It didnt slam the airline directly but lots of indirect allusion. It basically said that they and their colleagues in the airline strive to be professional, uphold the highest standards of safety for their passengers and were committed to an Australian-based airline (didnt use those words but that was the thrust) etc etc. It went on to refer obliquely to the industrial action and express confidence that the travelling public and passengers would understand and share their aspirations. On one flight it was made by the capt. and on the other by the FO "on behalf of capt. XX". It was about 30 sec as a previous poster said.

[bugsquash1]

Can someone explain why the Jetstar, QantasLink and other "related" pilot groups are not striking in support of their Qantas brothers/sisters? That would be typical here in Europe (more leverage) - why does this not happen in AussieLand?

Because when they asked for help years ago and told them what they could see happening in the trenches.
AIPA did not want to know

The domestic pilots were on our side but didn't hold much sway with the captains club on the other side of Sydney airport.

Although QLink are still in the air for now I saw the writing on the wall and left. :ok:

Good luck to the crews your just learning what the QLink crew have put up with for years.
I don't think things are going to improve soon.

BTW the rot set in with Dixon and Jackson, the Irish guy is just the idiot following a dream of Dixon. he doesn't have the background to think of this and cope.

[DoMePlease]

The fact that they've sacrificed the Qantas' name and reputation (eg travellers in Perth for Chogm and the Bangkok floods) means they're planning to shut the company down for good.

[rh200]

How the drama unfolded when Alan Joyce announced the grounding of Qantas | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/top-stories/how-the-drama-unfolded-when-alan-joyce-announced-the-grounding-of-qantas/story-e6frg12l-1226180659591)

QANTAS CEO Alan Joyce telegraphed his snap decision to ground the airline at 2pm when he phoned federal ministers Chris Evans, Martin Ferguson and Anthony Albanese. His attempts to reach Prime Minister Julia Gillard failed because she was locked in the CHOGM leaders' retreat in Perth with world leaders, including British Prime Minister David Cameron.
A senior Qantas source said Mr Joyce indicated the seriousness of the proposed action to the ministers and asked them to pass on the message to Ms Gillard.
Joyce told the ministers he was aware that the proposed move was "unfortunate" but that it was the only legal course of action that Qantas could take under the provisions of the Fair Work Act.
Mr Joyce expected the Government to immediately intervene to prevent the grounding of all aircraft. But they didn't.
Mr Joyce announced at 5pm that he was grounding all aircraft immediately.
They still use Telegraph?

Did it go further than expected, ie He thought the government would step in to prevent the grounding?

[victor two]

Well done and congratulations to all the senior management at Qantas for having the courage to take direct (and correct) action and stop this delibarate union torture of the airline.

The fact he has taken this step is a direct slap across the formerly smug faces of the sooks on any of these anti qantas threads who doubted his ability to lead from the front. He has shown better judgement and command decision making ability than most qantas captains.

Watching the angry ant ALAEU fed sec with his sneering face on the TV and listening to that dribbling sook and terminal cry baby Woodward from the pilots association has completely confirmed that unions only want to play on their own terms. Hope you clowns had a plan B!

Alan Joyce is paid 5 million a year to be a leader and make tough decisions. Thats exactly what he has done. Suck it up princesses!!

[Ascalon]

Some extremely clueless comments in here about Joyce's remuneration.

The package approved at the AGM consisted of a 3% rise to his general salary plus approximately $2m worth of options which are deferred until the end of 2012.

The options are only to be granted if Qantas share price outperforms the ASX. It is highly likely that Joyce will only get some of the options (if he gets any at all, which is a real possibility if the share price continues its current trajectory).

Taking the options out of the equation, Joyce has actually had a pay decrease.

[chockchucker]

Well Victor,


lets hope your little Irish boy can come up with a believeable response to the ASX tomorrow that this was a spur of the moment thing Saturday morning and not a planned action that he failed to mention to the shareholders or the stock exchange. Else he may be in for more than even he bargained for......

[aseanaero]

lets hope your little Irish boy can come up with a believeable response to the ASX tomorrow that this was a spur of the moment thing Saturday morning and not a planned action that he failed to mention to the shareholders or the stock exchange. Else he may be in for more than even he bargained for......


I agree , this wasn't a snap decision , it's been planned in advance.

Read this Pilots say email proves Qantas planned grounding - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-30/pilots-say-email-proves-qantas-made-calculated-move/3609006)

But the Australian International Pilots Association (AIPA) has obtained an email apparently sent by Jetstar CEO Bruce Buchanan last night advising his staff of the actions being taken by Qantas.

The date on the memo was Wednesday October 26 and is addressed to team leaders saying: "By now you may be aware Qantas has announced a precautionary grounding of its fleet from 5pm Saturday", and warned of the Monday lockout.

AIPA vice-president Captain Richard Woodward says the date on the email reveals the extent of the airline's "calculated" plans to freeze operations.

"It is dated Wednesday 26th of October - so this has been planned and orchestrated," he said.

"You don't stop an airline overnight."This has been a long considered plan by Qantas to escalate this dispute, right when CHOGM was happening, damaging our international reputation and just before Melbourne Cup, which is one of the busiest days of the year for the airline."

Jetstar says the date on the memo is incorrect and simple human error is to blame.

The airline says it used an old banner for the memo and forgot to change the date

Oh yeah , forgot to change the date ?

[aseanaero]

http://hfgapps.hubb.com/asxtools/imageChart.axd?TF=D6&TIMA1=0&TIMA2=0&s=VBA

http://hfgapps.hubb.com/asxtools/imageChart.axd?TF=D6&TIMA1=0&TIMA2=0&s=VBA

Virgins share price has been steadily increasing since September while Qantas has been doing exactly the opposite

http://hfgapps.hubb.com/asxtools/imageChart.axd?TF=D6&TIMA1=0&TIMA2=0&s=QAN

http://hfgapps.hubb.com/asxtools/imageChart.axd?TF=D6&TIMA1=0&TIMA2=0&s=QAN

Some insider trading going on or normal market reaction to the preceding industrial action or a bit of both ? Who knows

[rh200]

Is it my imagination or does the peak in Virgin's around around July looks like its giving the finger:p

[aseanaero]

If you look at both share prices they tracked with correlation (similar peaks and troughs) until early September the virgin went up and qantas started going down.

The big share price changes will happen on Monday morning when the ASX opens

There's going to be an investigation I'm sure on how well planned in advance the fleet grounding was and who that info was leaked to and who took financial advantage of it. It's going to get messy , expect lots more 'misdated emails' and 'I have no clear memory of that conversation' type statements.

[criticalmass]

I would not care to predict a victory for Qantas employees or Qantas management at this stage, but this may well be the final straw for the incumbent Primer Minister if she proves incapable, unable - or unwilling - to step in and at least get the two sides together at the conference table.

Does she come out on the side of the unons against management and therefore put the interests of the Federal Labor Party ahead of the national interest, or does she come out for management against the unions and place the national interest ahead of that of the party? Or, can she risk doing nothing at all and being perceived, yet again, as weak, indecisive and an irredeemable failure?

Looks like a case of "damned if she does (either way) and damned if she doesn't". Wonder how she'll try to offload this onto Tony Abbott?

This in turn raises another question; would the destruction of our national carrier be too high a price to pay for the removal of this inept Prime Minister?

[Al E. Vator]

Where in god's name do people like this "Victor 2" come from?

They sure must have had some horrible upbringing or been rogered by a rabid unionist or something to vent such aggressive drivel!

I'm actually getting quite a chuckle at the rantings of these trolls. They are an interlude to otherwise earnest discussion about a serious topic.

What is the intention Victor, that people take heed of your froth-at-the-mouth jibbering and come over to your dark side? Or does it just feel good to bash the keyboard and get that bile vented?

Please dear rabid right-wing trolls, try to make some concession to calmness and eloquence in your posts.

Now how about some discussion on that Commo Gillard and her evil Carbon Tax eh

[Class_Y]

This in turn raises another question; would the destruction of our national carrier be too high a price to pay for the removal of this inept Prime Minister? How about successfully transforming it into an airline, independent of national interests and animosities between employees and management...

Anyone remember swissair?

Sometimes it's better to have a clear cut...

[aseanaero]

As of last Saturday the old Qantas has been mortally wounded , whatever happens from now it will be a different airline. As wrong as this situation is and the way things were done I think management will get what they are pushing for over time.

I think the next Qantas B747 should be named " Alan I.R.A. Joyce " with a big Roo bar fitted on the front

I.R.A. = I Ruin Airlines

[crewmeal]

Look whats happening to BMI. A once proud carrier is about to be broken up, and for what? slots at LHR? OK for some slightly different reasons maybe, but QF could fall into the same trap if management get their way.

British Midland was once a household name that meant something. After management successfully screwed it up 10 years ago it started going downhill to where it is today. Now it's a thorn in Luffty's backside. Please don't let Qantas go the same way!!

[boyracer]

Now is the time for total solidarity of all the union members. Come Monday morning if baring the lockout everybody calls AJ's bluff and stays away the 15 mil a week loss will pale in comparison to the potential loss.
This would mean the back of AJ and a refreshed Qantas. Who will blink first? How long can Qantas survive a total stay away? Risk and reward, Risk and reward there will be one winner either AJ and his hoods or the workers and their families.

Im with the workers.....:D

[aseanaero]

Boyracer , I think a mass strike is exactly what management want so they can really bring the bulldozers and chainsaws in , the workers need to try and turn up for work on monday

I found this airline review on Qantas

Corporate Culture
Qantas has long sat on its hands and relied on its flag carrier status to win itself customers, however the travelling public have demonstrated their dissatisfaction by booking on other airlines offering a superior product. The upper echelon of the company is an old boys club, devoid of ideas, initiative or talent where promotion is based on ‘brown nosing’ and knowing the right people. Corruption and incompetence thrive within the company at all levels. Senior management despise the airline’s unionised staff and the airline suffers from an upstairs/downstairs culture. Ordinary business decisions are celebrated as landmark achievements by Qantas’ mediocre managers. Alan Joyce has been accused of ‘Jetstarizing’ Qantas and many aviation commentators now believe he is the wrong man for the job and predict his demise. Qantas' poisonous corporate culture is the root cause for the airlines decline. It share price is nosediving along with support for the company. Management grounding of the airline is practically unprecedented in aviation and will cause long term damage to the airlines already tarnished reputation. Alan Joyce's 71% pay rise two days before he grounded the airline is a public relations disaster.

Qantas Airways - Airline Review (http://www.destinationtravel.info/reviews/qantasairways.html)

[boyracer]

A mass strike is a very ballsy thing, but what are the alternatives? at this stage if the unions show up on Monday and the company goes ahead with the lockout AJ has won, he can then trim the airline for free. the triming needs to be at the top not the bottom , but if the top is doing the trimming then the bottom goes. Im sure the unions are weighing up the value of Qantas to Australia and the world, Simply put if the Australian economy cant do away with Qantas then the power is with the people and old AJ is pants down over a log. I think the way to avoid a melt down would be if the PM stepped in and fired AJ and got the new management and unions to have a round table chat, at least that would be a safer bet and everyone could retreat to lick their wounds and have a job in the morn. The real concern are the employees who need Qantas to feed their families and AJ knows this, he is not playing fair.
If AJ wins then what? A company who loath their boss, not good for the bottom line and safety.

[aseanaero]

Boyracer , safety ... I bet they have a management discussion paper that says a couple of total hull losses every decade is within industry normals. Welcome to the 'new Qantass'

[boyracer]

You are probably right Aseanaero, they should show up on Monday to show the good people of Australia that they are better than AJ, he would love to point a finger. But in theory with lots of if's I would love to see the workers go on a total strike and witness the management eat S***, they the management would be forever unemployable... I love a good ending.

[Pontius]

Boyracer,

What is this fascination you have with the PM charging in to save the day? This is not a nationalised airline and the red-headed one has no sway in the hiring and firing of the Board. She may well have an opinion and she may well make that opinion known but if the Board choose to ignore her and do something completely different then she doesn't have a leg to stand on (and given her performance in every other facet of Australian events I'm glad she doesn't). This will, ultimately, come down to AJ convincing the Board he has done the right thing for QF (I'm NOT saying he has, just what he has to do) and the Board backing him. The PM is a red (headed) herring.

[fdr]

The Board comprises a majority of Independent Non-Executive
Directors who, together with the Executive Director, have an
appropriate balance of skills, experience and expertise. The
Board endorses the ASX Corporate Governance Council’s
Corporate Governance Principles and Recommendations with
2010 Amendments, 2nd Edition (ASX Principles).
THE BOARD LAYS SOLID FOUNDATIONS FOR MANAGEMENT
AND OVERSIGHT
The Board has adopted a formal Charter which is available
in the Corporate Governance section on the Qantas website.
The Board is responsible for setting and reviewing the strategic
direction of Qantas and monitoring the implementation of that
strategy by Executive Management, including:
— Promoting ethical and responsible decision-making
— Monitoring compliance with all relevant laws, tax obligations,
regulations, applicable accounting standards and significant
corporate policies (including the Qantas Code of Conduct & Ethics)
— Overseeing the Qantas Group, including its control and
accountability systems
— Approving the annual operating budget and monitoring the
operating and financial performance of the Qantas Group
— Approving and monitoring the capital management strategy,
including major acquisitions and divestitures
— Appointing and removing the Chief Executive Officer (CEO)
— Monitoring the performance of the CEO and Executive
Management, including the Chief Financial Officer (CFO)
— Developing Board and Executive Management and succession
planning
— Ensuring a clear relationship between performance and executive
remuneration
— Monitoring the Group’s system of risk management and internal
compliance and control
— Ensuring that the market and shareholders are fully informed
of material developments

QANTAS boards charter, Sept 2011.... So QFA management has been planning this action for an extended period, yet fails to comply with their own standards of behaviour.

[aseanaero]

I think a total strike would show both sides of the dispute are being pigheaded , the unions need to show they care more for the survival of the airline than the management team and that work will continue while pay and conditions negotiations are going on.

Having thousands of people wanting to work locked out at the gate will make good press for the staff.

[aseanaero]

So QFA management has been planning this action for an extended period, yet fails to comply with their own standards of behaviour.

This is the key issue , is the grounding a snap decision as the management claim or has it been planned. Unwind this question with some hard evidence that it was planned and that key stakeholders and shareholders weren't informed and the current management team will lose all credibility and possibly open to some criminal charges.

Or even worse key stakeholders and shareholders did know and used that information to their benefit.

I bet the corporate office is busy covering it's tracks over the weekend if something isn't within the law.

[Gretchenfrage]

posting from very far away.

Remeber some other strikes in other places, e.g. BA, the govt stepped in and ordered the employees back to work per decree, citing the wider economical and national interest.

My question now: Why hasn't the Aussie govt done the same? Wouldn't they have ordered back unions, in case national interest was at stake? Too cosy with the board and the little man?

I guess there is more meddeling around, at least it stinks right over the oceans.

[Class_Y]

Despite all the quarrel, the financial market seems to be fundamentally pleased with the current situation. Stock price is going down for more than a year now, but QAN did not have have single vote for "Underperform" or "Sell" within the last three month.

Wondering why? Analysts might suspect a takeover...

[aseanaero]

Class Y , this is what I suspect also , a lot of speculators, investors and current shareholders who are 'in the know' , this is all about short term monetary gain and this years bonus cheque. They needed to pay the assassin before he pulled the trigger.

Tomorrow is going to be interesting

[rh200]

I have know idea what is going to happen. But something has to be done long term for Qantas. In my whole life the only time I have ever flown Qantas is when its been paid for by the boss. Any other times its been with anybody but.

You know you have to weigh up the emotional feeling as an aussie for Qantas to the practicalities of the hip pocket. Every time I have had to fly and its had to come out of my pocket I have looked at the website and went nope, not even close. You are prepared to take a bit of a hit, but not a lot. I don't know, maybe I just couldn't find the right prices:(.

[PilotEv]

Does anyone know the specifics of the union demands? I'd love to hear more info. Think this would make a fascinating movie if all the backroom conversations could be made light. Anyone interested in co-writing:)

The AU government has intervened asking Fair Work Australia (FWA) to halt the strikes & lockout on the grounds of the threat to the Australian economy.

FWA is Australia's workplace relations tribunal. They met late last night and the hearing with QF and the unions continued this afternoon.
For twitter users @leigh_howard is giving excellent real time updates.

Looks like either a suspension of strikes/lockout or all action ceasing permanently with FWA arbitrates and makes the final decision.
Unions wanting 3-4month suspension of industrial action, QF wanting all action terminated including lockout with FWA to arbitrate.

They've just adjourned to reconvene at 2045 AEDT / 1145zulu

[progressing nicely]

Quantas were a highly profitable company but they are now beginning to suffer from increased competition. Companies exist to make profit and they do so in a dynamic environment hence they need to adapt and respond to changes if they are to survive. For example IBM has been reborn brom the brink several times. You probably know it for pc's and laptops but it has exited that market and is now a major business advisory/ consultancy business and produces high end hardware.

The management are right to look for strategies that secure Quantas' future. Employees should be involved constructively but at the end of the day the decision lies with the management that the owners of the company (shareholders) have appointed to act on their behalf.

I understand that employee have to ask for pay rises and better conditions as they won't get them unless they ask for them. However, they need to understand the context of where Quantas is at the moment in terms of profits and future prospects and also in terms of what realistically they can get package wise at other airlines. I get the feeling that on this point the unions have failed to comprehend what management are saying (or that management have not expressed it clearly or strongly enough) hence the lockout is a move to send the message loud and clear.

Unions need to understand that Quantas need to come out of these with a agreement that enables a winning strategy to be implemented otherwise they will succeed in getting jam today only to find themselves feasting on dingo droppings tomorrow.

The anticipated 1000 job losses from the creation of a new airline based in asia seem to represent 3% of the workforce which I am sure can be absorbed by natural turnover and retirements.

[wiggy]

Remeber some other strikes in other places, e.g. BA, the govt stepped in and ordered the employees back to work per decree,

:confused: When was that?

[tail wheel]

Further strikes or a company wide strike is not on the agenda and not even a remote possibility. Neither is nationalising Qantas.

FWA is the umpire and their decision should be known later tonight or in the morning.

The only question that appears to remain and will be decided by FWA is whether PIA (protected industrial action) will be suspended (for 90 or 120 days) or terminated. Qantas are seeking PIA is terminated and claim they won't lift the grounding unless PIA is terminated.

[Mr Pilot 2007]

Sorry to intrude but here in NZ it has been reported that Qantas is losing $15m a week but the CEO has just been given a 71 per cent pay rise. How can they afford that?


Because joyce got his 2.5 million $ payrise approved before he grounded the airline.
Unlike QF employees, I guess his contract has a clause stating, if QF closes, or goes bankrupt, he gets paid miilions regardless.

I suppose some silly airline will employ him when he doesnt have a job.

Maybe to destroy QF was in his mandate.
Corporate greed anyone?

[aseanaero]

Maybe Joyce can run a power utility next and turn all the power off to a major Australian capital city ...

[taufupok]

What is this fascination you have with the PM charging in to save the day? This is not a nationalised airline and the red-headed one has no sway in the hiring and firing of the Board. She may well have an opinion and she may well make that opinion known but if the Board choose to ignore her and do something completely different then she doesn't have a leg to stand on (and given her performance in every other facet of Australian events I'm glad she doesn't). This will, ultimately, come down to AJ convincing the Board he has done the right thing for QF (I'm NOT saying he has, just what he has to do) and the Board backing him. The PM is a red (headed) herring

Hey, what's your beef? I love that ginga!

If FWA rule that AJ had acted in bad faith; then his position would be untenable paving the way for Julia to recommentd to the QF board to dump that little napoleon.

[cessnapete]

I think it is time the Aus airline unions stepped into the real world again.
I was based in Sydney by my UK airline during the last big stike in the 80's. Positioned Syd -Perth on a Dan Air 727 that was operating instead of the striking crews.
We operated Syd- Adl -Perth with same flight crew, something the Aus airline crews would not do, too long a duty they said and insisted on a layover in ADL !!
We all know how that strike ended.

[Trinity 09L]

Quote of BBC news: Australian PM can "decree" that QF restarts its operation and staff to go to mediation.

[emeritus]

Cessnapete..

What a load of b/s.

Frequently operated Syd-Adl-Per in a 727. Once even operated a DC9 Per-Adl-Mel-Lst-Hba-Lst-Mel !

[ozzy_bruce]

Hmm, I have been reading the 2010 Qantas Annual Report. Some interesting figures...Qantas + Qantas link Fleet = 191 Aircraft, Jetstar Fleet = 59 Aircraft. Profits Before Tax (PBT) by group in $Million for 2010

Qantas ---------------------------------->67
Jetstar --------------------------------->131
Qantas Frequent Flyer ------------------>328
Qantas Freight -------------------------->42
Jetset Travelworld ----------------------->14
Corporate/Eliminations ------------------->(114)
Underlying EBIT ------------------------->468
Net fi nance costs ---------------------->(91)
Underlying PBT -------------------------->377

So, 191 Qantas aircraft make $67 Million profit, 59 Jetstar aircraft make $131M. Im not taking sides, but if I was a shareholder, its a pretty easy to agree to the argument that the CEO would make for a strike..even if it did interupt my sat arvo footie!

If I was only interested on the return on my investment, for sure I would paint a big orange star on the 191 Qantas fleet and make the $2.2million per aircraft per year than Jetstar makes (an extra $357 million profit anyone?)

Also, how does Qantas Frequent Flyer make $328 M profit?!

Also part 2, net cash on hand was c. $3.7 Billion - or 185 weeks of strike at $20 million a week. Put that way, plenty of cash to keep grounded for a few weeks (ignoring loss of goodwil etc...)

Oh yeah, I agree with a previous poster, I fly them all the time for business, but never when I am flying for leisure and paying myself - my last return SYD-PER on qnatas was over $1000 for economy....! Nice new A330 though...

[308GT4]

Skwak7700 wrote on page 2:
"Best of luck my friends. I salute you for standing up to greed, which knows no political or geographical boundaries.

These short term managers are more than happy charging first world prices but not so hot on paying first world employees. An epidemic which will soon see them hanging upside down in the town squares all around the world.
I wish you the best of luck and stand strong and united against these http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif."

I would like to mention in passing that I have thought along these lines for quite a few years now. Further, it is refreshing for me to note over the last few years now, particularly post 'Lehman Brothers" collapse, that quite a few people on various platforms around the world feel similarly.
I have said before, during the 18th century in France, it was practically impossible for the greater majority of the French people to "negotiate" an improvement in life/plight with the ruling royalty. The ONLY way to improve their conditions was to literally chop-off their heads! Problem solved thereafter. Period.
The "great" bankers and ludicrously paid "executives" of today will in the exact same way, not negotiate or relinquish economic power, ever! Why should they?
3, 4, 500 years ago and back, we (civilization) used slaves. A person was 'allowed' to remain alive by the 'owner' and fed enough to 'function'. However, the slave was not permitted/allowed to think or function in any way whatsoever other than what the 'owner' dictated. (sound familiar?:E)
The frog in cold water being slowly heated does not generally hop out of the pot immediately.
I can very well see the "Captains of industry" being brought to task eventually over their utterly insatiable and voracious pure greed. Greed? What is greed? A synonym for "Loser"? I can just imagine these slave owners thinking.....
How will they be brought to answer? Well, one will eventually have to go hunting them down on their Bizjets/islands/condos/fortifications-in-the-cities/etc.
Will they be able to be targeted? Difficult to say. They own the defence and security and police forces which they fully utilise to protect themselves and their families and friends. But, the forces they use are comprised of "slaves".........
Certainly, like in all history from ancient times forward, the biggest adversary to contend with in attacking these oligoths will be the "traitor". Always present, on both sides luckily......

[LindbergB767]

308 very good post
For those who do not understand why Jetstar is making more money than Qantas and those who are thinking that the management is doing well to screw the workers GO BACK to read post #98

[lurker999]

Bruce,

i can make accounts sing any tune i want them to. it's unbelievably easy.

only take the consolidated accounts and group profit without copious amounts of salt. the individual results mmmmmmmmmm

and how much did QF domestic make? not listed.

there you go.


what the QF board has done is trash the brand. brands are built on trust. abandoning clients with no warning (often O/S and into bad situations (Bangkok) ) does more damage than the unions could ever hope to do.

I run my own business. you do not cut off you nose to spite your face, no matter what the circumstance, esp in a service based industry such as this.
the guy from Rio on the board may have been able to do this in mining, but this is a much different industry, with much more damage done to the brand.

[J.O.]

ozzybruce:

Suggest you read post # 98 of this thread. It may help to explain some of those "numbers".

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/467611-qantas-grounding-5.html#post6778379

[Rananim]

Unions.There is no better friend than a fair and just one and no worse enemy than a greedy and dishonorable one.

[Scuffers]

love him or loath him, he's played a blinder, just over 24h and it's effectively over...

What the fallout of all this will be is yet to be clear, but the unions have shot themselves in the foot without doubt.

[canadansk]

Try not to make the same mistake the "dispute pilots" made!

[ABAT4t2]

The situation is very simple. Currently no winners. Some here seem to forget that the unions did not ground the fleet, Joyce did. He has been told by the government to shut up and get them back in the air again.

No decisions on any industrial claim by the unions. Therefore that can only be a massive defeat for Joyce.

Now in 21 days things may be different, time will tell.

Some of you anti unionists need to wake up. Instead of thinking in the singular, i.e. only Qantas, you may do well to start thinking gobally.

Do you really support the global commercial drive to the lowest common denominator or are you a bunch of big mouths because the dumbing down hasn't hit you yet?

[bizjet inmate]

Qantas and BA same mentality.......who would have thought the pommes and the roos would agree on anything......my opinion.....and only an opinion.....which I believe we all have a right to, is times are tough, and us...(as pilots) not exempt. I think its about time the last of the dinasours in the left seat realize that its not the honeypot career it used to be and knucked down and did some work........

[Lantern10]

At two o'clock this morning, after a decision by Fair Work Australia, all employees are to go back to work, lockout is over.

Qantas Grounding | Flights to Resume | Fair Work Australia (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/live-coverage-qantas-ordered-back-in-the-air-20111031-1mqtm.html)

[77]

Qantas and BA same mentality.......who would have thought the pommes and the roos would agree on anything......my opinion.....and only an opinion.....which I believe we all have a right to, is times are tough, and us...(as pilots) not exempt. I think its about time the last of the dinasours in the left seat realize that its not the honeypot career it used to be and knucked down and did some work........

If your name is an indication maybe you have little experience of airline flying, unions, and union/management relationships. In the recent BA dispute a small group of employees went on strike, and if the postings on pprune are to be believed were prepared to bankrupt the airline, The majority of BA employees disagreed and did the jobs of the strikers. Same mentality?? I think not.

Senior Captains in the left hand seat not doing any work?? Most of these guys graduated through short haul multi sector days. Crew complements in large commercial airlines have been reduced over many years in line with automation etc.

As you say nobody is exempt and in my experience pilots have made a huge contribution to airline efficiency over the years. Whether management has been as efficient is another argument.

Because we use a seniority system most airline pilots are very keen to work for a profitable, sucessfull and well run airline and are willing to contribute to its sucess. In fact, in my experience, they achieve the max hours allowed in a year.

[Scuffers]

The situation is very simple. Currently no winners. Some here seem to forget that the unions did not ground the fleet, Joyce did. He has been told by the government to shut up and get them back in the air again.

No decisions on any industrial claim by the unions. Therefore that can only be a massive defeat for Joyce.

massively disagree.

way I see it, he either put up with months of random strike action causing massive un-certainty, and thus death by slow torture, or force the issue, which he has, now they HVAE to go back to work, no more strikes, job done.

21 days to sort out a settlement, or have one imposed, no way is this anything but total defeat for the unions position.

Yes, not ideal from Qantas's POV, but given the choice, the better option, and it worked in 24h, job done.

(I should say at this point I am no fan of Joyce)

[ABAT4t2]

forcing the issue isn't a victory because we don't know the outcome yet. Some of the wording of the fair work report is clearly not supportive of Joyce's behaviour.

We will need to wait 21 days or possibly 42 to determine the eventual winner.

[lomapaseo]

I'm confused (no surprise).

So they go back to work, still grumbling and the Guv claims leadership and vistory for the travelling public and tourism.

But how will we know that it is over and done with:confused:

How will vistory be measured?

If AJ gets sacked and the unons don't get their demands met will that be victory for both sides and the Tsunani warning will be relaxed?

I need to understand the rules of the game

[fdr]

The underlying complaint is that the ROI is poor. Quite.

QFA has about 19.9B in non current assets, and against that, the 500m is somewhat poor as a ROI. however, there is only 5.981B in equity.


If you get $5 return for an investment of $200, it is sad, however if the $5 return comes from $60 of yours, and your talking the banks to loan you $140, and you are servicing the loans, and still making $5, then that is a fair return. Particularly when the rest of the world is in exceptional circumstances and generally making losses doing the same old thing. Is it sustainable, depends if the banks still want to fund leasing of operating leases.

then of course, if in your accounting you have also taken a book charge for 1.2B for depreciation (longhaul.... remember everything else os leased), which means that the actual return is somewhat better... ie for the example, you are getting $17 back for $60 of equity.

even better, charge the costs of the competing sibling companies to the parent, and then bitch about the egregious situation, citing the relative "performance" of the family members. Even better, neglect to mention that your grand design has been trialled, and part of the management went to jail as a consequence, and the project made a massive lost against equity introduced, and the controlling interest has been passed on by your "partner" to your competition.

QF, with enemies in the management, you are in need of spring cleaning or a career change.

[aterpster]

Rollingthunder:

Not seen worse since Don Carty.

Guess you've never heard of Carl Icahn.

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Joyce has performed BRILLIANTLY in this move. At first it seemed like a huge, high stakes gamble but he has come out of it utterly gutting the Unions of any power. An absolute win for Joyce and a complete loss for the Unions. A strike is your only real power and recourse as a union and now that right has been taken away by the FAIR labor board. It remains to be seen the unions reactions but clearly they have been the big losers here. This will go down in the history books as a Home Run for Joyce.

[Torres]

I don't think that is correct.

The Qantas matter will play out in the coming months but it is highly unlikely there will be any winners, not the Qantas Board, not the shareholders, not Qantas apssengers and certainly not Qantas staff. The only winner at this stage appears to be Virgin.

I seriously doubt Joyce and the Qantas Board has any friends on either side of Parliament after the stunt they pulled at 5.00 pm on Saturday. Joyce highlighted a fatal weakness in the Government's cherished industrial relations legislation.

The game is only at half time, at best........

[ABAT4t2]

Might be useful for some like wyoming to actually read the decision before spouting uneducated nonsense.

A few quotes:

We heard unchallenged evidence from Mr Mrdak, Secretary, Department of Infrastructure and Transport and Mr Clarke, Secretary, Department of Resources, Energy and Tourism as to the importance of airline passenger and cargo transport to the economy and the effect of the grounding of the Qantas fleet on the aviation and tourism industries. The tourism industry, including aviation, was estimated as contributing 2.6 per cent to GDP and as having 500,000 employees. The value of inbound tourism is estimated at $24 billion per year.

It is unlikely that the protected industrial action taken by the three unions, even taken together, is threatening to cause significant damage to the tourism and air transport industries. The response industrial action of which Qantas has given notice, if taken, threatens to cause significant damage to the tourism and air transport industries and indirectly to industry generally because of the effect on consumers of air passenger and cargo services. The Qantas evidence was that the cost to it alone is $20 million per day.

It is apparent that a suspension of all action on an interim or short term basis is not appropriate and in the end no party supported that course. Some of the principal issues in the negotiations have so far proved very difficult to resolve. Other matters may be easier to resolve.

On the evidence there is significant uncertainty arising from the protected action initially of the unions but in particular arising from the lockout and the grounding of the airline. We should do what we can to avoid significant damage to the tourism industry.

There is a need to balance this issue against the fact that protected industrial action is permissible under our system and has been now for many years and has been taken relatively frequently in the airline industry with successive bargaining rounds. It is also important that encouragement of enterprise bargaining is also part of the system. In that respect, what we have heard indicates there are still prospects for a satisfactory negotiated outcome in all three cases. The prospect of a negotiated resolution in relation to the three proposed enterprise agreements still remains.

Not quite the Joyce home run. I suspect there will be change at the top shortly after this is finally sorted.

[flite idol]

Smells like a prepackaged deal to me. Joyce got his termination decision instantly and the binding arbitration has probably been decided already too. Check-mate! Another sad day for the folks in the trenches. I certainly wish you all the best.

[herkman]

I think QANTAS should take the chance to look long and hard at why people are voting with their feet and they are not getting the customers that perhaps are theirs.

In 50 years of travel I have noted the scene change greatly, some of it driven by penny pinching and some of it coming from the bean counters and perhaps some of the staff taking advantage of the change in things.

The bean counters are running this airline and like it or not, they are not the be all of marketing, an certainly understand little about using aircraft in an proper manner. 20 years ago a new aircraft brought into the fleet was sold long before it came into the market, so high was the standard of our aircraft. As such the airline had a good idea what each aircraft was going to bring upon disposal.

I have observed a lowering in cabin staff standards, not all staff I hasten to add, but there is now a a rude element and the cabin service I think should be looked at. Qantas used to be famous for its meals and soon I can Mcdonald type meals being served.

All the 100 and 1 cost saving factors impact on the pride that people used to observe by Qantas staff. I suspect that we are seeing a lowering of staff feelings under the new style management.

If I was in charge I would start and implement a review of all factors that impact on the business, sometimes a change may not be a good thing.

AJ and some of those who went before him lack the people skills to deal with
all people and that includes staff and public.

There is a chance for Qantas to wipe their slate clean, get rid of all the fancy accounting moves which fail to show the real picture and focus upon running a proper business.

What was that rolling noise, just Sir Hudson rolling over in disgust.

[bakutteh]

My 2 cents...Alan Joyce has succeeded in undermining the Qantas brand, a deliberate move so that JetStar can now emerge singularly to challenge VA. Qantas will eventually fade away and the unions can cry for all they want.

It's not Alan Joyce's battle to lose; its's the QF board's war to win. Alan had secured a handsome pay rise and should he come off badly in this battle, he will go away with a wonderful severance package based on the new pay. He can go away with all the curses and brickbats; but he has won the war for the QF board.

Alan Joyce will be nicely rewarded elsewhere; he has gathered ordnance for Tony Abbot to bomb away at Julia Gillard's government. Soon we will have many hug a ginga days!

[grounded27]

This is not "airline management", there is no love for the industry here by Quantass. It is cold modern corperate culture. Shut down your legacy airline with well trained well paid professionals ASAP, upper MGT gets paid well, the banks get paid, the workforce gets what remains (killing many pensions/other bennies)

They sell all assets and start up paying slave labour wages with a clean slate.

The workforce folding to this lunacy would only delay what MGT wants.

[Tipsy Barossa]

bakutteh, what an astute observation! You must be consulting the mumbo jumbo mediums in your backyard to come up with this drivel.:rolleyes:

[grounded27]

Why not just be honest, come out and say we are shutting down operations because we are greedy. Oh yeah, there is less financial benefit to it.

[OverRun]

Is it Alan Joyce, or is someone else the "Bain" of Qantas - someone who has been here before and nickle-and-dimed another Australian airline to death :rolleyes:

In May 23, 2011 Scott Rochfort of the Sydney Morning Herald had this to say

The airline, which for years has used Boston Consulting Group, is rumoured to have invited Bain & Company into its offices to prepare a few pie charts.

The appointment of Bain is not likely to go down well with Qantas's heavily unionised workforce. The blurb on the management consultancy's website notes: ''In this challenging environment, airlines can take steps to improve their business - but it requires decisive action.

''Bain's approach to consulting - focused on strategies with the highest impact and effective implementation - is well-suited to the airline industry, where there is no time to waste.''

Bain boasts that the returns of its airline clients ''have outpaced the S&P by 4 to 1''. Bain might be able to apply some of the expertise it built up helping the now defunct Ansett.

''Bain's expertise in airline consulting includes work in strategy, mergers and acquisitions, turnarounds, fleet and network optimisation, pricing, labour relations, operations restructuring and business plan formation,'' says the website.

[J52]

As a former LAME, I long ago learnt that any airline will screw their engineers (and employees) to make a profit. So I left the industry 30 years ago and found my experience quickly made me employable in other fields.

When I fly it is with the cheapest, safest and most reliable operator possible. I long ago also stopped having any loyalty to Qantas. If they cant give me a low fare I go elsewhere. In the past 2 months, every Qantas flight I have taken (which has been the cheapest fare on offer at the time I booked) has been delayed at least 2 hours due to the union slow roasting. So one way or another this nonsense by the unions and Qantas had to stop (or be stopped).

So if Qantas went offshore or closed down permanently I would say that is part of the process of aviation evolving. A business is a business and if it can't be run to make maximum profits then it goes out of business.

To the loyal Qantas workforce. You have all been part of a company which has been something that you can be proud of, but start facing reality - quickly. The aviation world has changed since you snared your job for life and when you come into work tomorrow, the job you had might no longer be there for you.

[finestkind]

The wee laddie was hired for one thing and that is to send Qantas overseas.
You are highly delusional if you think there is any loyalty to name brand, staff or customers and this runs every way. If a customer can get it cheaper they will go elsewhere. If staff can find a more accommodating job they are off.
Its unfortunate that we no longer want a high standard on our flights but would rather travel and be treated like cattle.

[Microburst2002]

IBERIA did the same with the same result (effectively eliminating the right to strike) about 12 years ago.

Qantas workers have been :mad: and their rights wiped out.

There is only one way to overcome this, and nobody wants to take that way.
Besides, a massive Qantas workers resign would be too difficult.

[billabongbill]

Tipsy, lay off the stuff from the valley and smell the coffee. Bakutteh actually took the words out of my mouth; AJ is the water boy who has taken the piss from the board and slam dunked it to all unsuspecting Aussies. Aussies in the aviation industry and pilots in particular will have adjust to the new ( I hate to say this over used word ) paradigm!:{

[limelight]

In another thread is this http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/467710-qantas-a380-crew-honoured.html

'nuf said?

[kinteafrokunta]

The QF board and the public are not easily fooled by the disingenious claims of the unions. The recent QF engine problems looked mighty suspicious; deliberate attempts to demonise outsourcing. With people becoming more knowledgeable and aviation savvy, those grandiose pronouncements by dunnunda pilots about their safety skills hold no water. People do read aviation safety reports from dunnunda and people working with manufaturers and safety regulators do know about boos boos made by all segments of airline pilots in the world....there ain't much of a difference if all relevant factors are accounted. People ain't easily fooled by all the swagger, self aggrandizing awards, etc

[topendtorque]

Its unfortunate that we no longer want a high standard on our flights but would rather travel and be treated like cattle


That'd be five star treatment then with less mortality than on the Cunard or P & O cruise ships.

[GrahamO]

Its unfortunate that we no longer want a high standard on our flights but would rather travel and be treated like cattle. We do want high standards, but not at any price.

We do not want to be treated as cattle unless we pay a very low price.

Where Qantas staff have it completely wrong, is that they think we want to be treated like cattle and pay for the privilege of paying over the top prices. There other carriers who offer slightly less than high standards at slightly more than a cattle class price and so people use them instead. It is simple as that, even though its a painful truth for Qantas staff who think the world (still) owes them a living on their own terms.

Sorry folks, but thats Dodo talk.

[Bullethead]

Tie me bloody Kangaroo down, Joyce

Tie me bloody Kangaroo down, Joyce | Article | The Punch (http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/tie-me-bloody-kangaroo-down-joyce/:p:D)

[topendtorque]

Tie me Kangaroo down indeed, this article below is better balanced and shows up the red cow as lacklustre in extreme.

Shows Minister Ferguson as the only man with brains in the whole outfit. Had they listended to him it would have been better handled for sure.

As for trusting the Minister of 'no conequence', it would be folly indeed to take any notice whatsoever of his pontifications.

Noteworthy is that the socialist cow only acted when she perceived that her prescious unionists would get no pay while locked out. What the bleeding 'ell did she expect? Everyone on full pay while the comapny went broke?
That seemed to be happening already as Ferguson notes, which was easy enough to see for those capable of passing a Class 1 eye medical.

How the Government failed to lead - and then tried to cover up | Herald Sun Andrew Bolt Blog (http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/how_the_government_failed_to_lead_and_then_tried_to_cover_up/)

[MTOW]

The recent QF engine problems looked mighty suspicious;kinteafrokunta, tell me you're joking - PLEASE!!!!!! You can't be serious to assert that professional engineers, even (shock, horror) unionised engineers, would purposely sabotage the engines of their company's aircraft, can you? If there was even a hint of that, the company (quite rightly!!!) would have had the offender(s) in a court of law before they had completed their shift, and every other engineer - and pilot, flight attendant, even bloody baggage handler - in the company would have supported the company 100%.

I'll leave it to someone closer to the QF coalface to explain, but from what I've heard, many of the problems QF's engines have suffered of late might be explained by QF's almost unique 'by the hour' leasing arrangements for some of their engines. (Another QF management 'money saving' venture.)

[mickjoebill]

Anyone seen a the survey or stats that reveal why the public choose to or not to fly with Qantas?

Qantas has 14% of the international market, I'd suggest that the majority of passengers don't choose Qantas based on cost of the fare.

Cabin crew and pilots are the human interface with the ozzie accent but engineers are hidden from view.
No question that the Qantas safety record is a selling point where the unique factor, compared to other airlines, is the nationality of the engineers.

Lets say that Qantas can increase their share to 20% of the market by lowering fares by using non Oz engineers, in the event of a prang would they lose 6% of market ? I reckon the numbers have been crunched and the answer is no.

[Taildragger67]

I'm not sure I'd be accusing anything penned by Andrew Bolt of purporting to be "balanced". I doubt he would, either.

[Jetjock330]

What will the little Welsh red haired lady do about it now?



Australia's Julia Gillard furious over Qantas action (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-15532836)



Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard has hit out at national airline Qantas, in her strongest criticism yet of the firm's decision to shut down its operations at the weekend.
Ms Gillard said Qantas bosses had taken "extreme and irresponsible" action.
In a surprise move on Saturday, the airline locked out its staff and stopped all flights in an attempt to end months of strike action by workers.
The firm said most of its flight schedules had now returned to normal.
The country's industrial regulator, Fair Work Australia, stepped in to end the dispute, ordering both sides back to work on Monday after emergency talks.
Ms Gillard has said she supports the right of workers to take industrial action, and on Tuesday made it clear that she was still angry with the company.
"Qantas on Friday was talking about continuing to negotiate this dispute. On Saturday it made the decision to strand tens of thousands of passengers around Australia and around the world," she said.
"It needs to take some responsibility publicly for that decision."
The airline gave the government three hours' notice of its decision to lock out its own workers.
Unions representing Qantas workers have been infuriated by the firm's restructuring plans, which will see a large part of its operation moving to Asia.
The firm's bosses said the lock-out was needed to end the dispute, which had been costing millions of dollars every week.
All domestic flights are running as planned, and international schedules will be back to normal within the next 24 hours, the firm said in a statement at midday on Tuesday (01:00 GMT).

[VH-Cheer Up]

An interesting take on the situation from Alan Weiss (http://www.summitconsulting.com/), the world's leading independent management consultant in his Monday Morning Memo yesterday (http://summitconsulting.com/databack/index.php):

This week's focus point: I've never seen a company or institution with unhappy employees and happy customers. Employees are assets, not expenses, yet many executives think they should be investing in equipment maintenance but not people maintenance. Among the worst offenders are banks, newspapers, and airlines. Apparently, Qantas would rather close its operation, ground its fleet, and inconvenience tens of thousands of customers than try to resolve its people issues. TWA, Eastern, and others were all driven out of business by horrible management-labor relationships. Neither unions nor management are always right or always wrong, but when you decide to take your ball and leave the playground you are a child, not an adult.

Enough said?

[gulfairs]

Has joyce really won?
The cost of grounding all of Jumping Dog airline was $30M a day for 3 days is about $90M
How much would the union demand have cost over say 3 years?
Does any body have a clue??
I bet it wouldn't cost a tenth of that.

[subyroo]

Is there any truth to the rumour I heard today from Bne Airport that Alan Joyce wants to fly in Chinese workers for 5 days at a time and back home again for $400.00/mth?

[Tankengine]

Well they won't be A330 Captains since China Southern pay more than Qantas!
[with an Aussie base]:D

[ITman]

According to the local news here in Singapore QF are going for a major advertising session with discounted fares on domestic an international flights..

[finestkind]

TTQ / Go

Getting a bit off topic but it does point to a dwindling lack of suuport from the punter. Qantas has a bit of a captive audience with the occassional traveller from OZ. The more frequent traveller will punt for a better option ref not only money but service. Happy to pay say 10% more to support the local brand but would also expect equal service to that of the rival brands. This does not occur. Normally there is a significant saving elsewhere and Qantas is way down on the list for service or in my experience its self service with the cabin crew working to a schedule and after that you look after yourself.

[topendtorque]

Maybe the drivers did not go on strike but broadcasting by any means to anyone outside the company messages contrary to company policy, is a sackable offence in all company operations manuals that I have read.


I'm not sure I'd be accusing anything penned by Andrew Bolt of purporting to be "balanced". I doubt he would, either.

Perhaps not you should ask him, he is a very approachable person. Certainly a fair quantum of his work is sourced from other writers unlike this post here; where he makes the point that both Hawke and Keating were much more responsive, perhaps even more responsible officers of the crown.

Column - Gillard’s four excuses won’t fly | Herald Sun Andrew Bolt Blog (http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_gillards_four_excuses_wont_fly/)

As far as newspapers go you could of course concern yourself entirely with the punchy one or that other socialist shadow the aged one and be unable ever to find any balance. Or you could read the vast majority of scribes in this country, take your pick.

Besides what is freedom of the press here now anyway other than nearly a mockery?

The catallaxy files is a good starting point for more balance and for a bit if humour laced in with it a very clever scribe is Tim Blair.

I don't know what the Q shareholders read but for my money their actions with share prices up, shrieks far louder than words.

They haven't been paid a dividend in three years and then they demonstrate that confidence.

Go figure!
have a nice day
tet

[OverRun]

Excellent satirical cartoon; from the West Australian today. Alston is the cartoonist. If you want to get it for the crew-room wall, signed copies from phone +61 8 9482 2378

Qantas Cartoon (http://profemery.info/cartoon1.jpg)

Cheers,
OverRun

[aseanaero]

There's going to be an investigation I'm sure on how well planned in advance the fleet grounding was and who that info was leaked to and who took financial advantage of it. It's going to get messy , expect lots more 'misdated emails' and 'I have no clear memory of that conversation' type statements.

I posted this on 30 October , Hockey is the first one to say it "I can't recall"

Now Mr Hockey has confirmed Qantas told him a grounding of the fleet was on the cards.

Advertisement: Story continues below
He was asked on ABC TV when he had first heard from Qantas that it was considering grounding its fleet or locking out workers.

"(Qantas has) been saying it around parliament house for the last few weeks," Mr Hockey replied.

"They've been saying it privately and publicly around parliament house for weeks."

Pressed on when he first heard it himself, Mr Hockey said: "I can't recall"

Qantas told me of possible action: Hockey (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/qantas-told-me-of-possible-action-hockey-20111101-1mtws.html)

[notlangley]

Don’t chance it with Ansett - link (http://www.theage.com.au/business/mystery-flight-of-ansett-accounts-20111120-1npaz.html)