SFT No longer???

[Midland Maniac]

I have just found out via a phone call that SFT have ceased trading! I am currently a student there and have several thousands of pounds invested in the company as do many others of my collegues down there.

Can anyone shed any more light on the situation or offer some advice???

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ 05 November 2001: Message edited by: Midland Maniac ]

[no sponsor]

I'm sorry to hear that MM.

Are you covered? Did you pay with CC, or something similar?

[Midland Maniac]

no, i was on a payment plan, and the final instalment was when i started my IR a week ago....and you know how much an IR costs. I have only flown 10 hours of the IR so it looks like i am shafted good and proper!!!

I am hoping that some of my other mates are not in such a desparate position!!!

:( :mad: :( :mad:

[Scratch One Bandit]

I was also in my first week of IR training. I don't have a clue what to do now, and I can't afford to carry on for the time being.

[F900B]

Sorry to hear SFT going under, if you do a Search in the 3rd week in August you will see 1 or 2 people brought the very fact up that SFT had financial problems, after Sept 11th i'm sure that was the final blow for them.

But i'm curious to know before they shut there doors did they have a many students there.

And what about all the expanasion "Send Clowns" was going on about. Like the distance learning and for integrated courses,and acquiring more aircraft, there Connection with Flordia Air etc.....

I was a 509 student back in the Mid 90's over all was very pleased and enjoyed my time there. But comes to no surprise especially the way things are at the moment

[ 05 November 2001: Message edited by: F900B ]

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

Hmmm.......

Looks like there was some truth to my post back on August 21st!!!
http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=010499

Even though Lightening Ace completed a credit check on SFT that came back great, it goes to show that credit checks mean absolutely nothing!!!!

A little quick to close the thread though - some automatically think foul play!!!!!

A note to everyone - no matter how good the school is pay by Credit Card - you then have recourse.

I feel for all the students that have lost out - I would check with the banks that loaned the money, the schools closing procedures, and then some schools are helping out students that got burned.

Good luck fellow aviators.....

[Midland Maniac]

Not sure if it is as bad as first thought at SFT (trying to be optimistic!!)

From the information I am being given, it seems that the company has closed its doors to prevent them going into liquidation. If a buyer can be found then hopefuly (he says with his fingers crossed!!) business can resume. Not too sure as to how much truth there is in that but i suppose it gives some of us some hope!!!

[MorningGlory]

Sorry to hear the bad news guys. We've just finished our ATPL ground school there, after having the same happen at PPSC.

Unfortunately when called into the classroom nextdoor to ours (when at PPSC) our surprise meeting with the insolvency suit caused us to believe that PPSC might just be bought and that everything would be fine.....

It wasn't, It isn't and it never shall be, Studies without end AMEN!

:( :( :( :( :(

[SkyCruiser]

It seems that Bournemouth Airport is being hit hard by the downturn in aviation, beware Professional air training. :confused:

[spitfire747]

I have just paid them 5000 for training with ambassador over 6 weeks ago, ambassador have had nothing from them,

did they know all that time ago things were going to go pop and did they take my money knowing that

i am due to leave on sat for florida for 2 weeks, i am now stuck with tickets and a hire car with no hotel of flying :-(

what are the chances of getting any money back ??????
How does a bankruptcy work????

[Tristar Freak]

I sometimes wonder why we bother with having a rumour network.

It was mooted back in August that SFT was in trouble and was pretty much an open secret to those of us in the training arena. Unfortunately our esteemed moderators checked around the industry and could find no evidence to back up any claims: Sometime in the last week I had to damp down specualtion that SFT were going bust on another thread here somewhere. I have dug around the FTO industry and can find nothing to support such rumours.
Taken from this thread: http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=010554&p=2

Had WWW been in the training loop he would have heard enough rumours and speculation.

Of course I understand the need for a bit of discretion and the potential legal ramifications but when there were so many rumours going around away from PPRuNe why were we gagged?

Unfortunately I no longer see any point in this Forum if information that may have saved some trainees time money and heartache is to be blocked from public view.

[scroggs]

TF,
the thread you refer to was closed mainly because of the somewhat-bad tempered (but legally relevant) spat between the Silver Fox and myself, although it wasn't me that closed it. However, the point was made in that thread and others that speculation about FTOs, especially without supporting evidence, could have a direct negative and unjustified effect on those FTOs. We at Pprune, of course, didn't want to be the cause of any such effects, and we saw and heard no evidence to support the speculation.
You and others may have had evidence at the time, but you didn't (as far as I know) present it here (or directly to the Moderators), so we couldn't really support the allegations by continuing the thread. We had no grounds for warning people off SFT, and we could have been in deep legal doo-doo if we'd been seen to be unjustifiably casting aspertions on an ostensibly-healthy company.
Even now, I've seen no evidence that SFT was in any trouble in August (although that doesn't mean there isn't any such evidence), and it would seem to me that their demise is closely related to events in the market since 9/11 - which, of course, hadn't happened at the time of the original discussion.
At the end of the day, it's quite a difficult judgement call as to whether 'rumours' are actually damaging speculation, and you'll have to forgive us if we err on the side of caution.

[QNH 1013]

Spitfire747, sorry to hear of your difficulties (and all the other students). You asked how a bankruptcy works and as there are so many training establishments going under at present, I'll try and give the brief outline. I'm not an accountant, just someone who has run many companies (none have gone bust!) so I've seen it happen several times and I've lost money several times. Please excuse spelling but its late and I havent time to check everything...
Limited companies don't go bankrupt, they go into either receivership (liquidation) or administration. The process is started (usually) by one of the major creditors who decides that their best chance of getting some money is to apply for a receivership or administration order.
With receivership, the receiver sells all the assets he can get his hands on to raise the max amount of cash. The preferential creditors i.e. the government (inland revenue and vat and National Insurance) get paid in full. If there is anything left the next lot of preferential creditors (the banks) also get paid in full, or whatever is left. If there is still any money left it is shared between the "unsecured creditors" i.e. you and I. Oh I forgot, the receiver takes his fee (large) first.
With Administration, the system is slightly different in that the large creditor who has applied for the administration order thinks that the best chance of getting his money back is to run the company (perhaps for a limited time) himself. In other words, it is a pretty blunt statement that he thinks the current owners can't do it properly. The company can sometimes be sold in this state, allowing some of the creditors to get their money back.
The chance of any unsecured creditors (you and me) getting anything at all are very small (but not zero). Sometimes a distribution of, say, 3p in the pound is made. Remember, if there was enough money to pay the creditors the company would not have gone bust.
As far as I know, it always has been a criminal offence to carry on trading if the directors are aware that the company is insolvent. This legislation has got tighter over the past twenty years but getting fraud convictions is not easy - remember the Maxwells?
The above is the approximate version. If someone in the insolvency business wants to correct any errors, please feel free to do so.
Tips for future students (or anyone else):
1. Don't pay in advance. Resist the pressure. The more pressure they give you, the more likely they are to be having cash-flow problems. Remember, the only reason companies go bust is because they run out of cash. There is no other reason.
2. If you can, pay by credit card. Be very suspicious if they don't accept visa and mastercard. They may give spurious reasons like it would add to their costs, but a well run business pays very little for accepting credit cards, particularly with high average transaction values. One reason a company might have difficulties in taking cards is if any of the directors have a poor track record. Because the banks have to re-imburse they don't like to give card facilities to companies whose directors might not be completely pukka.
3. Don't confuse all plastic cards with credit cards. The protection you get is only with credit cards. A Debit card (Delta or Switch) might have the Visa or Mastercard logos on it but it gives you no protection against the company being unable to supply the goods or services you have purchased. This is an easy trap to fall into and I haven't seen it mentioned here before. In Law, a credit card is something very specific and it doesn't include debit cards and charge cards. Be careful !

[topofthemornin]

You guys all sure that this is the end?

Maybe they'll honour their present students and just stop taking on any more? :confused:

[Tristar Freak]

ToTM,

I have heard, as a RUMOUR that SFT will finish their current students off.

Scroggs, I did hear many rumours in the middle of August about SFT, from some very well placed sources. Unfortunately, the sort of vibes you and WWW were sending out effectively stopped anyone from posting anything further on the subject. I saw no point in contibuting to a topic that would be stomped on by the Admins. I no longer see this as a rumour forum. It seems that only provable fact that will stand up in court can be posted, which is a shame. Changed days indeed.

:(

[Midland Maniac]

lets just hope that the rumour about finishing current students off is correct. Not quite sure how they would do it though if they have no cash flow!!!

I believe that we will know a little more possibly by the end of today.

Thanks for the info on bankrupcy, very useful!!!

mm :( :(

[QNH 1013]

Rich Tea, You asked a very good question and although I'm not a lawyer I can tell you what the lawyer's answer would be.... They would say 'It all depends'
Let me explain. Assume you are entitled to reimbursment for the goods or services you have not received. So you paid 12k for a course to get you (say) an Instrument Rating. When you have only half completed, the establishment goes belly-up. So what haven't you received? Have you not received the rating that you paid 12k to get and are therefore claiming back 12k, or have you got half of the service, therefore only being entitled to 6k back? This is just the sort of uncertainty that lawyers love as its what keeps them in business.
One way to resolve this is to go to another establishment and get a quote from them to train you from your present standard up to and including the rating. If they quote 8k, then thats the amount of service you have not received.
Now then, what if the original 12k was not a quote for the rating but was just an estimate based on average ability? Now the credit card company, or anyone else you are suing, can argue that you wouldn't have got your rating for 12k anyway because you were sub-standard, so what is your loss now? Obviously its less.
My (free) advice:
1. See if anything emerges from SFT or anyone else taking over the training for those in the lurch.
2. If that produces nothing, start your claim for the full amount you paid. Your arguement is that there is no such thing as half a rating. It is all-or-nothing.
3. I don't know if SFT arranged loans for students, but if they did, (e.g.loan companies forms in their office with SFT stamp on the introductions box) you might have a claim against the finance company on the basis that it was a linked agreement. Can't remember the legal term but I did once successfully sue Chartered Trust using this legislation after some sub-standard building work.
All the above given in good faith, but remember I'm not a Lawyer so please make your own checks before acting.

[Atlanta]

Here's a little info that may help. Some weeks ago, when SFT and Four Forces ceased operations, I understand that the CAA got together with the remaining schools and arranged with them to assist students whos colleges had gone belly up. One school to my knowledge was authorised to increase the number of students over the number for which it was normally certified. I don't know what the financial arrangements were though. If you are currently in the porridge I suggest you contact one of these remaining schools and see what deal you can make.

[Speedjeans]

Does anyone know if ETA are in the same boat!

[Send Clowns]

News from the Front (well, from the Horns Inn and Andy's house)

Sorry to hear about those guys that have lost more than I have (a job and some money, as they still owe me some training).

However, Midland Maniac is right there are promising signs for a purchase. Unlike PPSC, SFT have some worthwhile assets and have maintained the goodwill of many students. Partly this is because SFT have not banked any checks for a while (not sure how long, about 10 days), so there is less feeling that "they knew it was going to happen, still took the money". Partly it is because the MD was there to tell students, a sign of the existing goodwill between students, staff and management. Partly it is because staff liked the management - were occasionally in disagreement, but basically did not have the antipathy toward senior management shown in some recently-deceasd organisations, that split the team as soon as the company had problems. SFT's team is still together, pulling for the business.

In a show of loyalty today from both sides there is an attempt in progress to keep the groundschool running until various courses can sit exams or at least arrange alternative instruction. If this comes off then the bills to keep groundschool running will be paid by students and the instructors will work for free for three weeks. Most of the instructors (I included, and I was already redundant last Wednesday) have already agreed to work for nothing.

This has various advantages beyond the obvious help for the students involved to complete courses. It keeps part of the company operating. It keeps student goodwill, and more of SFT's good name. It proves staff and student loyalty to the company. All of these will help towards our ultimate aim : sale of the business.

We, the staff of SFT Aviation have faith in what can be done with the company. The company has a good name, never had the problems of certain other FTOs. The problem is of cash flow, and that is being worked on now by a dedicated team of administrators and directors. When this is sorted we will be the same organisation, with I hope much the same team. As a student and then an instructor I felt that the instructors at SFT are the best team I have ever worked with, and though it may have to be slimmed down, it will still be a great training organisation. Please no dragging the company's name through the dirt, no wild speculation. Wait and see : if the money comes through, which we all expect to happen, SFT will keep up their reputation as perhaps the best flight training provider in the UK.

Thank you for your patience and forbearance.

[BAE employee]

There has been plenty of advice on here about "only pay by credit card" becuase then you have some claim if the company goes down.

A mate of mine lost £35,000 when SECOAT went down about 5 yrs ago - he had to work in Saudi Arabia for 2 yrs to earn enough to finance his licence.

Sorry to hear the news - I hate to see people lose cash, but the credit card advice is good. I would advise the same for people paying for training here or at OATS - too big a risk at anytime, let alone the present (remember SECOAT went down when the market was good!).

[spitfire747]

Hope they can sort things out for current students.

I am due to leave for USA on Saturday, i know resident students have had letters, but i have heard nothing just rumour from here

Seems a good school, good posts on here, just hope i can salvage some of my 5000

[Send Clowns]

Finally, in answer to those that quote the August rumours, can you really have forgotten the date the world changed? That was September 11th, well after that discussion.

The effect on the flight training industry is unfortunate and frustrating, especially when discouragement comes from peope posting here who really should know better. SFT has lost students since September. Apparently a very large course was due to start on Monday, a sign of how we were picking up after the twin hit of JAA and NVQ tax relief. Most of those cancelled. If students were not cancelling SFT would still be trading - the company was still profitable, cash flow was the problem.

Yet this is the time to start flying training. By the time a student finishes, maybe on average 15 months time, there is likely to be a desperate shortage of pilots, as the industry is getting back to normal. Notice very few pilots have been laid off. There was a pre-existing shortage, that will be felt again within a year, probably in 6 months.

So all those thinking of training, do it. There is no better time. And if SFT get the capital injection it needs, come down to the best FTO in the UK, with the best weather, the best airport and Bournemouth, a great town.

[Desk-pilot]

Im really really sorry to hear about this. I was one of the ones all set to start an Integrated at SFT this month but the state of the airline industry and a few personal issues caused a rethink.

I have to say though that SFT were by far the most approachable, friendly, honest and well meaning of the schools I visited - far better than OATS in this regard. In addition their pricing was highly competitive and the people superb.

I wish all the students and staff success in rejuvinating their excellent FTO and I hope to start my course with you very soon.

Speak soon,

Jonathan

[QUERY]

'Most of the instructors (I included, and I was already redundant last Wednesday) have already agreed to work for nothing.' and something about SFT being profitable.
Doesn't that suggest that Send Clowns really is a clown?

[Tosh McCaber]

As a matter of interest, how does one manage to get a £7,000-50,000 rating on a credit card to pay by this means up-front? Most credit card companies I know have from the upper hundreds to £2-5000 credit limit, unless you have super- rich parents.

What's the mechanism, other than, perhaps, paying in small whacks, which may be unacceptable to the school?

[Luke SkyToddler]

Send Clowns, mate, you really take the p!ss ... you say you've been redundant since last Wednesday, your company's gone bust, they've got you agreeing to work for nothing, and you still come on here and spend your evening shamelessly spamming the PPRuNe punters to come and rescue your sinking ship!

Much like yourself, I'm an experienced flying instructor that's been made redundant in the last few days, my employer is also making some pretty severe down sizing as the result of the collapse in CPL training post September.

No matter how desperate you and your company's need is however, I reckon it's bloody irresponsible of any instructors to go urging people to commit their life savings to flight training at the moment. Any sane person can see that this industry is still standing on the edge of the abyss ... yeah it *might* recover in 15 months but it only needs one little push (like, say, another hijack episode) for it to go into a state of total collapse from which it might take many years to recover.

And as for you saying 'notice very few pilots have been laid off' ... apart from ourselves you mean? :rolleyes: Do you think people are blind? I do appear to have noticed several hundred more of the poor sods over on R&N ... do the words 'Virgin' 'BMI' or 'Gill' mean anything to you? Plus the several hundred self improvers and people from cancelled sponsorships that will be hitting the dole queue in the next few months? Plus the couple of years worth of FI's that will have been logging the hours and waiting for things to turn round all that time? Have you read a single thing WWW has posted these last few weeks?

The forum moderators are advising people to sit on their hands and NOT commit any big sums of money to training for the next few months, until the medium term job prospects become clearer. I fully support them in giving that advice, even though it's cost me my own livelihood at the moment.

[Sagey]

Tosh you pay the funds onto your credit card!!!

You cannot go over your credit limit say 2,000, but there is nothing stopping you spending 52,000 if you have paid 50,000 into the credit card account.

Sagey

[Send Clowns]

Skytoddler

Part of the point is we are willing to help the company out with no reward. We have loyalty because the company was a good one, and we have faith that it is likely to be bought out. Of course I come here to put my view of this across. There are domesayers like you here and have been spreading gloom for weeks as a ill-juded reaction, the other view needs to be put across.

The airlines have laid off large numbers of people, but relatively few of those are pilots. Yes some have lost sponsorship, some have early retirement, but the point is the latter are uneconomic to employ in airlines. One example you gave was Gill, but when they went bust their routes were taken over within two days - so people still have to fly them. I understand business aviation is doing well, as companies trust their vital personnel to them. Even airline business is fairly buoyant. Regionals lost some at first but reported recovery within two weeks (from an analyst who had spoken to all the UK airlines), transatlantic business and middle-east business has been badly affected, but is recovering. It's nay-sayers in the media that caused the problems - there is no nderlying weakness.

If you talk to the industy analysts (an independent analyst, ex-OATS, came to talk to us weeks ago) this will recover, and fairly quickly. He was talking 6 month to two years. Then there is a forecast of critical pilot shortages. The analyst pointed out that airline sponsorship programmes fell off at every slump, and every time this caused a lack of pilots. He emphasised that this is not unique - he had seen 3 slumps before, and all followed the pattern.

Your comment about complete collapse of aviation was just scaremongering. The only way the airline industry could totally collapse is if the world's economy collapses. Then your money is completely worthless, so you may as well have spent it and enjoyed the flying. And World War III would occur, and we can all join the Air Force. Remember the world's economy depends on aviation. They cannot do without it, and the world's stability depends on money, therefore on the economy.

[Sensible]

Send Clowns,
I appreciate your optimism, I would be in the same position given the current state of the job market. I am however suggesting caution regarding the " worthwhile assets" it may well be that the debts of SFT exceed the value of the assets which you mention. Your offer to "work for nothing" is very noble and in the absence of alternative employment, may be better than sitting at home. What I puzzle over is your statement that "The problem is of cash flow, and that is being worked on now by a dedicated team of administrators and directors." You see, in my experience, cash flow is a problem caused by a flaw in the basic business equation which should read:- money in is greater than or equal to money going out. An example of an equation spelling disaster is:- money in is less than money going out. Generally, flight schools do not have money owing to them since the source of income is from students who pay as they go or up- front as in many cases. If students are paying up-front then the cash flow would be healthy and in fact the company would appear richer than it actually is because of advance payment. Now, what I and others would like to hear is how a profitable company can possibly have cash flow problems when sales payments are up-front ie: no debtors?????

You say "if the money comes through, which we all expect to happen, SFT will keep up their reputation as perhaps the best flight training provider in the UK." now where is that money likely to come from? Finding somebody to throw money into a bottomless pit seems highly unlikely but indeed possible.

So, do you know the book value of SFT? I have in front of me a copy of the SFT accounts to 31 Dec 2000 and I would wildly guess that there will be a nil dividend to creditors at the end of the day!! The profit for the year to Dec 2000 was actually exactly NIL and that was before the Sept 11 crisis. There is also a complication with the fact that SFT Aviation Ltd had at 31.12.200 Secured creditors owed £183,930 now that means that these creditors cream off the first 183,930 before the others ie: students paying up front etc even get their nose near the trough!!

If anybody wants a copy of the accounts, e-mail me with a fax number or I can try sending as an e-mail attachment!

I hate to be the prophet of doom but if SFT have your money then don't hold your breath to receive the goods other than from kindly folk like Send Clowns who will deliver the goods to you at no charge to SFT!!!

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

Send Clowns me ole mate

Now let me see - you see that this is merely a set back in the SFT operation and that you still tout business for SFT.

Your writing seems to down play the enormity of what has happened and what some future aviators have lost.

If it was merely a cash flow problem then I am sure if anything it would have been done. Cash flow problems do not happen overnight. It has been almost 2 months since the 9th Sept. Surely if anything could have been done it would have been. Or how about talking to the banks/investors???? Then again, maybe they had already used that option? Yet, you seem confident that SFT will be back again imminently.

Sorry clowns, but something must be clouding your judgement! Suggesting students going to the best FTO when that same FTO has gone under, is the most stupid thing I have heard.

I will say however, good on you for offering your time for free. You and the rest of the SFT crowd doing this to finish up students are noble in your quest to which I wish to all luck. We need to have the competition out there - monopolies will only kill the aviation industry. If SFT do get back up and going, good on them, however SFT must know that the return to greatness will take longer this time.

[Sensible]

Ahh, speaking of investors, it may be interesting to note that there is a holding company which is SFT Europe Ltd. The plot thickens and the likelyhood of a payout to creditors when there is a closely linked holding company involved is in my opinion less likely!!! But then I'm not a fly on the wall, just realistic!! how about a response from the Directors of SFT Aviation Ltd? or have they gone to gound?

[robione]

They say that "what goes around comes around.Whilst i was at PPSC doing my atpl,s i was hearing stories about why the amaligmation between PPSC and SFT broke up. Now Gail must be laughing her tits off.IMHO the place was a recipe for disaster.I mean who would install a bloke as HEAD OF GROUND TRAINING who came out of the RAF worked at ppsc for five mins,speaking from experience,whos teaching ability was almost nil.The ground school alone was a shambles with most of there students leaving and having to go to ppsc to sort them out.I was there i saw it.I sat in the same classroom with them.The best uk training school ?.It would appear for once in my strive to get qualified i made the correct decision.I am not owed any money by them and i have never done any training with them, i went for a look at it i decided no.Very sorry for all the blokes and girls who have lost money to them and i hope it works out for u all.It p----- me off that people trying to get qualified work there ba--- off to reach there dream and outfits like this make some off the worst possible moves to try and stay afloat without thinking of the severe hardship and heartache they are about to cause to countless numbers of students.

[spitfire747]

What is the OFFICIAL word, i have invested 5000 for a trip to Ambassador in 2 days yet i have heard nothing, do i go or stay

[Midland Maniac]

spitfire,

At the this moment, some of the students are in talks with the administrators. No-one is getting straight answers at the moment, so I am unsure as to whether you should go to the USA or not. What I suggest you do is have a look at your travel insurance documentation and see if you are covered for this sort of event occuring and see if you can get at least the momey back for your flight!!!!

Other than that I cannot give you anymore information. I am also in limbo...i am to sit a Met exam in a couple of hours and my mind really isn't on the job...but I am not going to let this beat me!!!!

I should be geting some more info from Bournemouth by the end of the day, so I will keep you informed....but believe me 'you are not alone'!!!!!


MM :mad: :mad: :mad:

[spitfire747]

Midland Maniac

first of all GOOD LUCK with the met, try you rbest under the circumstances.
I spoke to the administrators this morning, he was helpful but had no straight answers for me, if any money of mine went to the USA them ok if not it was in their account and therefore, he said, there was NO REALISTIC chance of getting any back, so i am stuck. Not sure about the US, Naples Air Centre has offered some flying, but all the money i got from the bank i have given to SFT, so depressing !!

[GPS Approach]

Spitfire,

Have you tried going to your Bank Manager and explaining the situation, they may be able to lend you the same amount again, or at the very least give you some more money, so your trip to the States isn't wasted.

Just a suggestion and sorry to hear about your predicament.

[spitfire747]

i think i might still go and go to Naples Air Center instead...looks might i might have to brush the dust off my flexible friend!

[Send Clowns]

OK, on the cash flow problem of SFT. Yes there is a reason for this, including a lean year due to JAA and NVQ, but more importantly a single event before that. Some of you may know of the legal problems SFT encountered. Although SFT in effect won the case, costs were not awarded, so SFT lost a lot of money. The cash reserves were severely depleted. SFT is still trading profitably. It is easy to understand why it may not have been doing so in 2000 with the problems of JAA and NVQ. However both will be overcome, were being overcome, because pilots are needed to keep the airline industry going.

I repeat SFT did not have a problem of underlying weakness, the problem is lack of immediate liquidity, short-term funds i.e. a cash-flow problem, common in small businesses even if profits are healthy. In good times that is easy to cope with, as sympathetic banks look to proven future business, defined here by deposits taken. The training industry will be lean for a few months, and the banks don't like that. They have a very short-term view. I have seen it in another small business when their bank took fright at recession and withdrew a lot of credit. The banks proved stupid, as the business survived despite that problem, and would have done much better and thus paid the bank more if credit had been available to do more business :rolleyes: . Banks do not always see the strength of a business.

Many investors have a longer term view in mind. They can see the underlying strength of the industry and of SFT as a business. There was an offer being discussed recently, but it fell through. Now the same purchaser could buy SFT more cheaply. Who knows if he saved himself £100 000, half a million even by waiting a week. But by the administrator's judgement to the right investor SFT as a whole (part of its assets are its staff who have proved very loyal and its good name) is worth more than its liabilities, and that investors are out there.

Just wait and see. There is no guarantee that SFT will be bought, but people who know very little about the business, and about the people who make up SFT do not help by posting downbeat assesments here.

Edited to correct my terminology.

[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]

[Send Clowns]

Spitfire

I had an email from the company President at Naples Air Centre who is very kean to help out people suffering becase of SFT's problems. Anyone who wants to get in touch with him drop me an email (address in my profile) and I'll put you in touch. Best of luck.

Midland Maniac,

good luck with the exams, mate. At least you passed my subject first time ;)

[Alex Whittingham]

As far as I can tell SFT is in administration. Putting a company into administration ring-fences it from previous creditors. It can be sold unencumbered by its previous debts, the proceeds from the sale pay off the previous creditors in a strict order. It would be very unusual for unsecured creditors (like customers) to get more than a few pence in the pound back. The purchaser may acquire responsibility for the staff, this is presumably why they have all been made redundant, to reduce the liability as much as possible.

The company can continue to trade whilst in administration and it continues to be liable for rent, etc. whether it trades or not.

If a decision is made to go into liquidation it stops trading and the receiver sells off the company in bits for whatever he can get.

My commiserations to all concerned. I hope you find a buyer.

[Send Clowns]

Robione

I find your post distasteful and ill-informed to say the least. You call my colleagues' organisation a shambles when you can't even string a coherent sentence together?

Yes we had problems under the previous CGI (before I joined SFT even as a student) but you don't acknowledge that a new CGI had completely reformed the groundschool. Brian is an excellent and very well-regarded CGI. We all loved to work for him, and would have hated to lose him. We had some excellent instructors, and very good notes. The instructors were some of the best I have seen, ground and flight, despite having been through extremely thorough training in the Royal Navy. Many of the ground instructors had worked for other major schools (OATS, Cabair, Bristow, BAe Jerez), some even had job offers there for more pay. They stayed because they genuinely believed SFT could be the best school, and was the best management to work for. I will argue every time that by the time I started working for them in June it was the best school approved by the CAA for a JAA modular ATPL in the world.

You blatantly lie about "most students" finishing off at PPSC, as most passed the exams without studying anywhere else, because SFT provided good support after courses were finished for anyone struggling to pass (unlike some other schools). Those that did go elsewere went because SFT did not run refresher courses.

I have not only sat in class with students taught by PPSC, I have completed their training when PPSC went out of business. While I have nothing bad to say about their previous instructor (who has a good reputation) they were less well-prepared than our students. In this I would be backed by at least one ex-PPSC student with whom I discussed it. In my opinion this is because they had been rushed through the course - PPSC's course was shorter than SFT's, and structured differently.

The heartache and hardship to students and staff is inescapable, but perhaps because of the way our directors behaved the business can be saved. Blame the banks, the government, Bin Laden, PPSC for the legal action, but unlike in certain other training companies' collapses our directors did everything in their power to minimise the loss to students.

In those other collapses the staff hated the management, vowed never to work for them again. Here the staff were trying to work out if they could afford a buyout, and are working hard, for free, to keep some of the company going. I think all my immediate colleagues will apply for their jobs back if the capital comes and Colin Green is kept on as MD. You understand the difference?

Had SFT not tried to stay afloat the then students definitely would have lost all their money. The effort was to keep the business going, and still is.

[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Sad to see that SFT and PPSC are gone, and so many people have lost their jobs and their hard earned flying money.
What I don't quite see though, Send Clowns, is that you equate working capital with cash flow? I own and run a flying school myself, and my working capital is that which is invested and brings a return, ie the aeroplanes, and which can be liquidated by selling the capital asset if necessary. Cash flow is that which services fixed and variable costs including any hire purchase on working capital.
Cash flow only becomes a problem when debtors fall into arrears, the scourge of small business, and which has to be handled by imposing and enforcing strict credit terms. So...how can cash flow be a problem when the customers are paying in advance, unless the company is hopelessly over comitted financially and therefore insolvent? Most businesses survive without their customers paying in advance, including mine, and many such as retailers also have to carry large amounts of stock in trade, something we flying schools don't have to worry about.
Here in Aus every year the directors have to sign a declaration that they can pay their bills as and when they become due. If the directors borrow money knowing they can't pay it back, they can be held personally liable for the debts if the company collapses, even though the company is "ltd". Is it much different in the UK?

[zoru]

sft had a great bunch of instructors...hope u guys get trained elsewhere.. but be careful...e.g did you know that the M.D of Cabair recently offloaded his shares...best of luck guys.

[henchman]

Can Zoru tell us where the shares went? It might show who does have the confidence to back Cabair.
Or take the advice of RVR800 (on 'Cabair Upbeat' thread) and pay by credit card.

[mintfavour]

I dont believe it. I just recieved a letter from SFT tonight, offering me new courses with extra discount etc if I book now, Also with a leaflet inviting me to attend a SFT seminar on 24th November. The letter was dated the 25th October (trusty snail mail). Was this a last effort by SFT to stay afloat.

This is a bit out of order, I hope nobody fell into this trap, so quickley.

Good luck to all that have lost there savings for their ultimate goal.

mint :(

[Send Clowns]

My apologies for the slip of terminology, CFI. I am a pilot, not a businessman.

Mintflavour

At the time your letter was dated SFT still were in negociations with a buyer. That buyer would want the company in good form, with full order books.

[mintfavour]

Sorry if being a little out of order but risk other peoples 5-22K for a nice looking order book when things are looking so ill anyway.

A little selfish I feel.


:mad:

[zoru]

henchman

v sorry i do not know who the shares in Cabair were sold to. evidently the founder / M.D is a shrewd businessman,last spotted in south america.

[incipientspin]

haven't read the whole thread so ignore this if i've missed something,but the thread i did read there was mention of sft finishing off their courses but from bitter experience (ppsc) i know that once a company has finished it is no longer an approved training organisation therefore cannot continue training......

best wishes to all.

[Send Clowns]

Mint,

If you'd read my previous posts you'd realise that had you paid a deposit your check would not have been presented. Very fair I feel. You cannot accuse the company of any dishonesty there, and I feel it is a little unfair for you to make wild accusations when you have not been wronged.

Incipient

The respect shown by the CAA for the CGI and his judgement is such that he was given authority to keep training an approved course in the interim in a single call to the CAA. There is no approval problem for the next three weeks.

Zoru

Are you very sure of your information? Rumours like that can be extremely damaging, especially in an environment where we are all nervous.

[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]

[David Webb]

Send Clowns,

Welcome to the land of the unemployed. As a much more experienced hand than you in more ways than one (how about twenty six years continuous professional flying and ten years at PPSC?) may I offer you some sound advice?

Keep quiet, head down, don't get involved in too many discussions free to the world wide web (as opposed to "www" whom only we know about).

Incidentally, my e-mail history and telephone calls would completely refute all that you have said about PPSC. You are quite right in that your courses and ours were structured differently........after all, we had been in the game for a lot longer.

To all those caught up in this may I offer my sincere condolences.

The south coast? - WATCH THIS SPACE!

[spitfire747]

Thankyou all for all your posts.

Does anyone know the answer to this :

If SFT is now bought as a going concern and starts trading again, will the new owners honour my training agreement, ie the 5000 i paid for training in the usa for a night, imc and 35 hours, or will i just lose that completely

[Midland Maniac]

Once again Spitfire, i seem to be attempting to answer your question!!

From what i believe (and people can correct me if I am wrong) is that if the company is sold as a going concern then, the buyers will carry on trading as a FTO. From what I am hearing, if this is the case then they may AND I MUST STRESS....MAY!!!....offer some money back to the students or training at a reduced rate. Not the best solution for people who have lost 5 figures like myself, but if it does happen it is better than nothing.

I think that the best thing we can all do at the moment is to see what happens over the next week. I personally will be persuing all avenues to get some money back but i suppose only time will tell.

Spitfire, I am going back down to Bournemouth tommorow, so if you want me to ask any questions for you, then email me with your tel. no. and I will see what I can do!!!

Hope that has helped slightly......

Met exam wasn't to bad either...just hope that I have passed it this time. Could do with a bit of good fortune at the moment!!

MM

[Sensible]

Send Clowns ol chap, I have told you that SFT made a NIL profit last year and you say "SFT is still trading profitably" It is impossible to say this without bursting your bubble so here is the hard fact:- SFT IS NOT AND HAS NOT BEEN TRADING PROFITABLY AND THAT IS WHY IT IS THE MESS THAT IT IS! The banks do NOT pull the plug on profitable setups!

Have you heard of the mushroom system? Feed bul**** and keep you in the dark?

Anybody else who considers throwing more money into SFT should reconsider it! Personally, I would spend it in the USA at the present time BUT NOT WITH PAYMENT UPFRONT!! Everybody including myself learns the hard way that this is a bad way forward.

[robione]

SEND CLOWNS.
Sorry to find that u found my post not to your liking,but then the truth is often hurtfull.I stand by my every word and i have never told a blatant lie,that i find very offensive.That said,in your reply u admitted that yes i was correct in my posting by saying the ground school alone was a shambles"YOUR WORDS WERE" YES WE DID HAVE SOME PROBLEMS"Well again i will state that they were arriving at ppsc whilst i was there in the droves.It would appear that most of the postings here seem to be having a pop at u,and you have been given some sound advice to keep your head down,you might want to give it some thought.

David Webb-we shall be watching the South coast with interest.

[Barcli]

david Webb ?
good to hear from you , will definately be watching anything you are connected with on the south coast and wish you well with it...
You did me and my wife proud many years ago...

[ps121]

sorry to hear the news - and sorry for the guys at SFT - if its any help i just got finished off at Aeros in Gloucester - also did my BCPL there a while ago - done in two weeks mainly because there are only two students assigned to one instructor and there is always plane availability. Hope u guys all get sorted - good luck ;)

[zoru]

Send Clowns

re :offloadidng of cabair shares.

it is a rumour that i heard...perhaps someone from cabair could enlighten us all ?

[StudentInDebt]

Its true that the ex-Group Chairman of Cabair is in south america, taking part in a car rally of somesort in Brazil as part of a long holiday/retirement.

As for his shares - who knows, he isn't running the company day to day anymore, but Cabair haven't seen the last of him.

[MorningGlory]

My best wishes go to Chris Riley ex ppsc now ex sft instructor.

This teaching lark just isn't going your way, hope whatever you do next works out better.

Best of luck.

From an ex ppsc and sft student.

[David Webb]

Hi Robione,

Do that!

[Metsys]

Clowns,

That is exactly what you appear to be. I agree with Dave Webb....Shut Up!

You have no experience whatever, like Dave I have 6000+ hours, Civil and military experience am ex BAe Saudi Arabia military QFI, ex CAA Examiner and lots of etc's.I am a post-graduate but have a lot less groundschool teaching experience than Dave, only 5 years but about 16 if you add my University lecturing experience.

However, I have had bus loads of SFT students on my private weekend courses, turning their lack of knowledge into a pass. I can list names and pass marks. SFT groundschool was a disaster.

The best thing you can do is stay quiet, your future possible employers might be reading your posts, like Glasgow!

GROUND Instructors should be seen and heard only in class!

John Standen

ex SECOAT & PPSC

[ajaz]

Well guys i was a student there too.. I was also a student at PPSC and they whent bust too lost £5000, there and now SFT whats happening and where can i continue to finish my course.. :confused: :confused:

[ajaz]

GO JOHN !!! GO JOHN GO JOHN.. I am a ex student of John Standon, :p I have in excess of 10,000 flying hours in Fast jet and 3000 hours in sitting with john discussing his pile problems .. But i will still back him.. By the way john the offer is still open if u wish to get them seen by a Docter in BRADFORD>>>> :p :) :( :cool: :o :rolleyes:

[pj997]

In today's FT

The Administrators have but up for sale SFT Aviation Ltd & SFT Europe Ltd (both in Adminnistration)...

Advert states:

Turnover c.£3 million
£1.3 million forwards order book
11 refurbished aircraft
state of the art simulators
modern dedicated groundschool
JAR145 operation

[ 09 November 2001: Message edited by: pj997 ]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its always sad when an FTO goes down.

Lets try not to become fractious.

Some people have moaned that this forum did not give enough advance warning of SFTs demise. A few months back when it was floated as a rumour I checked with a friend of a friend that SFT had students. They did and they had bookings as well.

It looked like they were in no danger of going bust that week.

Obviously there was more to the story than that. But hey, PPRuNe doesn't employ Roger Cook on the sides to look into these things...

Over the years through countless email enquiries I have never recommended SFT as they seem to have had a series of problems. For the last year I always viewed them as the weakest of the big four. If people emailed me directly then I said as much. But it is/was not my place to do down a FTO publicly unless they are engaged in sharp practice at students expense which SFT certainly weren't.

I am very sorry to all those that have lost money. If I were paying crica £50k for a course I would only do so with an organisation that was the 2nd largest defence contractor on the globe... But the advice, as always, remains DO NOT pay upfront.

My feeling is that Wannabes should stay out of big time flying training for the next 6 months or so.

Cheers,

WWW

[Winkiepinkie]

Does WWW have the same recommendation for the current BE sponsorship?

W

[Harvey SM]

Just thought that I'd put in my 2 pence worth.... I too am an ex PPSC student... I lost money there, but fortunately none lost with SFT (just sat my exams yesterday). With both schools, there are many pro's and con's, but at the end of the day, SFT did bail a lot of us out when PPSC went under..... We didn't have to go there :rolleyes:
MIRAGE 2000 SQUADRONMate,give SEND CLOWNSa break, atleast he and the others at SFT are willing to work for free. It was only Roger who was willing to give up his spare time (whilst most others wanted to charge sky-high tutorial rates). :p
I'll email you later I hear there's some donkey's on the lose in Bradford!!
Both Nav instructors (PPSC and SFT) were, in my opinion excellent.
;)

[F900B]

Billy,

As WWW as said all along pay as much as you can with a Credit Card. If you dont have a large credit line, maybe you could ask a family member. That seems to be the only and best way these days to pay for flight training.

[Send Clowns]

Thanks Harvey, was a pleasure to teach you.

I had written a long reply to all those involved who seem to peronally attack me as "representing" SFT (in the post incidentally commenting on how I had enjoyed teaching the ex-PPSC students even if they were a little boisterous!) before my computer lost it, but now it hardly seems worth it.

WWW thanks for your support too. I agree that SFT behaved honorably, and also that we should not be fractious. SFT staff, students, directors and administrators are pulling together to pull what we can out of this. Can't we all pull together, maybe to put pressure on the government to assist the flying training industry they seem to have done their best to destroy with the misbegotten JAA and short-sighted removal of NVQ tax relief?

I'll just say to David that I did not say the students we took on from PPSC were ill-prepared, and in fact in my mock (and hopefully the exam this week) they did as well as the students who only studied at SFT. I was defending SFT's reputation as an FTO (we had developed a fine reputation as well especially in groundschool, against the tide of earlier problems) and aserting that students did not go elsewhere due to deficiencies in SFT.

Robione, most students (under JAA, the relevant time for judging recnt quality of schools) at SFT never studied anywhere else. Hence your assertion was untrue. Your rant covers a 6-month period over two years ago, so you cannot defend your assertion.

Sensible, assuming you are neither an administrator for nor director of SFT I will believe their assesment that SFT was profitable rather than yours that it was not. I read your assertion, so no need to repeat it.

You have a rather touching faith in banks. They do pull the plug on profitable businesses (I mentioned one that actually survived the plug pulling if you read, and is now doing rather well. The owner is a close friend of mine), and fail to reign in unprofitable ones. It is their in the sorry news. You spend in the US if you like, but at the time I trained the only approved school wanted more money than SFT did.

P.S. I am unavoidably away for the weekend so probably cannot reply until Monday or Tuesday, so perhaps Metsys will get his wish that I "shut up" without having to take the ridiculously excessive step of simply not reading my posts

[ 09 November 2001: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]

[ajaz]

Well I thought i better put my 20 pence worth too..!!!!! SENT CLOWN..!!!!!!!! MATE i have to admit that you did help us students from PPSC alot and if it wasent for u i dont think i would of got bye.. Mate I do apprectiate ur support and i hope you do get a job elsewhere if not ..You might as well join me at KWICKFIT..Hey guys i think you should leave sent clown alone Hes been through alot over the last weeek and i will fully support him right down to the bone ..Good luck guys and HARVEY MATE... The DONKEYS HAVE BEEN GOUGHT AND ARE ON THE MIAMI FLIGHT ON SUNDAY>>HEHEHEHEHEH :D :D :eek: :mad: :mad: :

[David Webb]

I cannot believe some of this, especially the spellin and gramer! Let us all just hope that someone, somewhere, is trying to do something positive about it all....

"An experienced pilot is one who uses his superior skill and knowledge to avoid situations which would otherwise require the use of that superior skill and knowledge"

Aye,

David

[Midland Maniac]

Hi to John Standon....the legend!!!!

Nice to see him puttng his vew forward ona topic I started!!!!

Just like to say "John, thanks for the info that you gave me on the MET videos...bloody expensive but they helped me a lot!!! cheers!!!! "

To the rest of you "Stop arguing!"

MM

(a man heavily in debt!)

[ajaz]

HELLO DAVID WEBB ...MATE SERIOSLEY MISSING YOUR HPL....How ya doing Dave..From JAZ...!!! :D ;) :D

[David Webb]

AYUP JAZ

I do not see why you have a problem with HPL.
Did not SFT sort it out for you then?

....do not, I repeat, do not, flare a delta!!

Hope to see you around, but it has to be in daylight!

Dave

[ajaz]

David the only HPL lesson we got was about 7 weeks ago.. dont blame myself if i fail HPL..!!!! Mate do you know nullIf any body is looking for pilots i got some lessons of Metsys to fly straight and level..!!!!HEHEHEHEHEHHE...TERRAIN TERRAIN.. WOOOP WOOOP PULL UP PULL UP.. WHAT NOW DAVE???..YOU HAVE CONTROL..!!

[Sensible]

Send Clowns, you assume absolutely right with your posting Quote:
"assuming you are neither an administrator for nor director of SFT"

I am indeed nothing to do with either of those but then you go on to say Quote:
"I will believe their assessment that SFT was profitable rather than yours that it was not"
You don't say who "their" is and I assume that you don't these claims of profitability in writing! I was quoting from the SFT Company Accounts which were raised by the SFT accountants and signed by the directors and then filed at Companies House!!! are you now claiming that there was a conspiracy by the directors and accountants of SFT to conceal profits? I hardly think so. If the directors and accountants at SFT have published the fact that they made a NIL profit in the year ending 31 Dec. 2000 then that's good enough for me but not you apparently!

E-mail me your fax number and a copy of the SFT company accounts will be with you.

You go on to say Quote:
"You have a rather touching faith in banks. They do pull the plug on profitable businesses (I mentioned one that actually survived the plug pulling if you read, and is now doing rather well. The owner is a close friend of mine), and fail to reign in unprofitable ones. It is their in the sorry news"

I would be interested in reading the accounts of the company which you mention as "doing rather well" because quite simply I don't believe that the company accounts would support the reality of profitability at the time that the bank "pulled the plug" Often unprofitable companies continue to trade because they choose to deceive banks/creditors as to their true level of solvency.

You go on to say Quote:

"You spend in the US if you like, but at the time I trained the only approved school wanted more money than SFT did"

Wouldn't like to quote sums and names there would you? I for one would read your post intently and with great interest!

Hope you enjoy your week-end, I can imagine that you need a well earned break at the moment!

[Lightning ace]

Well just got back from a gaunt over to Venice MP. More security than fort knox outbound.
so SFT are no more. sad to see another FTO down and more anger at the lying bastards behind it.
Is was in the office with polly in late August. Being told that the bank where there that day just to introduce a new loan scheme for students and how all student money is safe because the MD was a trusting fellow who put it in a holding account..
Anyone else been told that now the liquidators are in.
Any further comments on what you told me ?
polly.
Pilot training needs a shot in the arm. ALL training funds held in trustee accounts only. If the FTO's out there wont organize it they must all be crooks.
Also the govenment must look at nil VAt on training and even genuine NVQ schemes.
Good luck to all. :rolleyes:

[Sensible]

Escrow or holding accounts are not in the FTO's interests quite simply because the money is not available to them to use so where is their incentive to hold money in accounts which stop them from using the dosh?

[Rob 747]

Can only say:

Pay with a credit card

We all no what MOST schools are like!!!!!

We have yet to see what SFT Will do!!

Sorry to everyone who lost monet :( :(

[Midland Maniac]

It is all well and good saying that you should pay by credit card......but not all of us have a credit limit of £12,000 to pay for an IR!!!!

Not sure about you, but I have no job as I gave it up to follow my dream, so a bank would be bloody stupid to give me a card with that sort of limit!!!

The people that have been stung by SFT did think about this eventuality before commiting themselves to the course. I checked out there credit status and took provisions to hols all of my money in a separate joint account. If the company had closed before I had started my IR, then I wouldn't have lost so much money. As I was only ten hours into an IR at the time, I lost all of my IR and MCC money.

So it just shows that you cn be as carefull as you like but sometimes 'S**t happens' and there is not a damn think that you can do about it!!

I just hope that something can be done to secure students money. Help from the government, or maybe even a governing body for Commercial Pilot Students?? I just hope that people can learn from what has happened to myself and my close friends, and that it doesn't happen again!!

MM

[Sensible]

Dead easy really (assuming that you have access to 12,000 quid, just phone the credit card company (number on back of card or statement) tell them that you are making an advance payment of 12,000 or whatever into your account and then pay the merchant by credit card - hey presto, you just paid 12.000 quid by credit card when your limit is only £500 !!

It's when you spend the money but don't have the necessary funds to repay them when the fun begins!!!

[captainkilner]

Good luck to you boy's and girls from SFT hope things turn around for you all .

Good luck from up north !!!

:) :) :)

[QUERY]

Any news of the rescue of 'profitable' SFT from its receivers?
Is there likely to be anything left for the SFT students and other creditors?

[rolling circle]

Just heard from a well-placed source within GAPAN that the CAA are progressing plans to force training organisations to ring-fence customers' pre-payments (escrow accounts or whatever)

The word is that they will make the approval conditional on suitable arrangements being in place. No safeguards - No approval. This will also apply to PPL schools overseas when they come under the approval umbrella next year.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I can understand paying a deposit to secure a place on a course, but paying for the whole lot up front is just giving them an interest free loan. A solvent organisation wouldn't need payments in advance to continue trading so these holding accounts shouldn't worry those who have been able to survive the costs of JAR etc. But why have a holding account? Give them your money in installments, in the meantime see if you can earn a bit of interest on it yourself.
If I was doing my training now I would consider seriously picking only organisations who don't insist on one up-front payment. When I did do my training ten odd years ago I never paid a penny up front, that was the norm then, so it can be done. And yes all my training was done in Bournemouth with organisations that are mentioned on this thread, and recently demised.

[QUERY]

What does/did the S stand for in SFT?
On the paying up front point, obvious that you wouldn't want to pay a huge amount for a long course over months/years. On the other hand, for a short cheap course, the saving may be justify any risk. Also, from the flying schools' position, you'd be a bit anxious about anyone who could disappear without any realistic chance of collecting what they owe.

[EddyCurrents]

Querry, the S stands for Simulator. From the days when that was just what they did. Before my time though.

As a student, SFT came over as the best school. Later as an instructor on their Aztecs, SFT was by far the best+ to work for. Colin Green really tried hard, both to keep students and staff happy, and to run a profitable business. If more students had passed their exams and got onto flying,(I'm not blaming them), then the school would probably still be running.

If you read this Colin/Chris good luck in whatever new venture you go into. It was a pleasure to work for you in 99. I really did feel bad leaving for an airline job.

[Julian]

The school I train wiyth requires you to credit your account with at least £500 at a time (although you could credit more if you liked!), this was run down until it reached about £75 and then you had to top up again to a min of £500.

Great idea as if anything did happen you did not kiss goodbye to the whole of your piggy bank! And of courese you paid the amounts using your CC so you can claim the money back if you did get stung.

Julian.

[QUERY]

Thanks for that history, Eddy, but I don't understand the 'If more students had passed their exams and got onto flying'.
Surely SFT was paid for people training for, not passing, exams? Or do you mean that poor results have led to reduced business for SFT?
I cannot comment on the quality of instruction at SFT, but it doesn't surprise me that there wasn't enough flying. When I went there, admittedly years ago, SFT was obviously a nine to five place, even in the Summer.

[driftdown]

When I did my IR there and GFT's it was certainly not a 9-5 operation. Airborne in the Warrier at 0600 - lovely summer weather great memories . Sad to read that so many people are now very worried about the financial consequences. Good luck to you all.

[QUERY]

Not long ago, on this and similar topics, Send Clowns & Co (but no-one official) were blathering about 'profitable', 'promising' etc. S...FT.
Since then- NOTHING.
So what's happened?

[Midland Maniac]

Query,

I think what was meant about 'if more students passed there exams" was the fact that not many people were transfering from the groundschool to the flying side!!! This meant that SFT could not take any money from those students on the groundschool module. The problem being the conversion to JAR from CAA and the fact that the CAA came up with some bizzare rulling that you must pass all of you ATPL subjects before you could attempt the CPL GFT!!!! (not sure of the rule as integrated students pass the CPL before the second set of ATPL subjects!)

I was stung by this one. I had two subjects to complete but decided to start my flying. Other students decided to get their groundschool finished first. Over the last few months (anyone from SFT can correct me if I am wrong!!) only a few students transfered to flying...which inturn caused cash flow issues.

I am not defending SFT as I have been stung very badly, but I cans see that there are many factors that have contributed to there downfall. I just hope that lessons can be learned from others misfortunes!!

MM

[ 16 November 2001: Message edited by: Midland Maniac ]

[Sensible]

Yes Query, Send Clowns seems to have exhausted his act!! Has the reality and hopelessness of SFT struck him I wonder?

[QUERY]

Send Clowns was probably naive (a sucker not a shark) but why the sudden and continuing silence from the pro S...FT camp?

[PPRuNe Towers]

Sorry folks - hit the hundred on this one so it's time to close it. You may well want to save a copy for future reference and you're more than welcome to restart the thread.

Rob Lloyd