Amiens Prison Raid

[Prangster]

Just caught up with the recent programme re the above and wondered what others think of the allegation that the RAF was suckered into the raid by SIS/SOE shenaningans. It was interesting that the documentary made no reference to the near civil war between 'our' resistance fighters and the French communists. It was also seemed that the breached external wall almost seemed to have had a rather neat hole in it not the devastation one might expect if a 500 pounder had blasted it apart. I would have expected to see a rather larger crater unless the bomb had gone through said wall without exploding. Do tell if anyone knows the 'truth'

Remarkable effort on the part of the Mossie crews and sad to see their efforts dragged into the mire. Thank the Lord the Danish raids were free of such political wrangling.

[Lightning Mate]

It was also seemed that the breached external wall almost seemed to have had a rather neat hole in it not the devastation one might expect if a 500 pounder had blasted it apart. I would have expected to see a rather larger crater unless the bomb had gone through said wall without exploding.

Ahh my friend.

You need to know something about weapons ballistics and WW2 warhead fragmentation characteristics to answer that.

...thus sprecht ein Jaguar pilot.................:)

[pasir]

... SOE do not enjoy an entirely high degree of eficiency in their role of
planning and overseeing some operations - In 42 to 43 they sent a total of 53 agents each with radio - parachuted straight into the hands of the waiting Gestapo - many would die - in what the Germans called the 'England Spiel' - whereby they had intercepted the first arrivals and 'turned' them. The unbeleivable height of lunacy achieved when one of the first captured agents to be turned left out the pre-arranged ommision of a check word to indicate he was transmitting while
under arrest - only to have transmitted back from SOE "You left out your check word - Dont forget it next time" !

...

[ColinB]

I thought "Englandspiel" was in Holland. A totally different section to France.
The SOE did not at any time control its own signals, they were in the hands of MI6. Any missed security checks were down to them unless they chose to ignore them.

[pasir]

Mentioning the 'Englandspiel' tragedy was to indicate that SOE was
at times seemingly run on amatuer lines - the Dutch section fiasco being an example of incompetence resulting in the deaths of scores of brave agents and others.

If the British army officer Maj C Blizzard in SOE who failed to recognise the importance and act over the 'forgotten security check' was typical of the standard of 'intelligence' recruited within SOE then there is every reason to suspect that the SOE planned raid on Amiens prison could well have been another serious SOE gaff - resulting in the unnecessary deaths of many brave men.

In the Burgess and Maclain affair British intelligence would repeat such incompetence when in later years they were warned by Canadian Intelligence that a British University trained traitor had infiltrated the highly secret Atomic research establishment - but again chose to ignore the tip off.

...

[henry crun]

pasir: If you are suggesting that SOE planned the raid and the RAF just carried out their instructions, I would like to hear what evidence you have to suggest that.

[pasir]

HC We only know what is on record and has been published about the
Amiens raid


Regarding the RAFs role - Whether or not SOE were involved -
the RAF would have had every faith that "British Intelligence" had carefully
checked and double checked that the mission was vital and essential -
and presumably had every faith that they were being sent on a mission of vital importance - being mainly concerned in the flight planning - timing and precision bombing accuracy. To this day the actual reason
for the raid and from where the idea originated from is clouded in a web
of fog and deception.

If unhappy about the aformentioned disclosures in which SOE were heavily
involved then do feel free to carry out your own researches.

..

[jindabyne]

pasir

In 42 to 43 they sent a total of 53 agents each with radio - parachuted straight into the hands of the waiting Gestapo

Do you mean that ALL agents sent out in that period were captured, or that of the absolute total 53 were captured? If the latter, what then was the absolute total?

[Wander00]

There is a lot about this sad story in "Between Silk and Cyanide" by Leo Marks

[pasir]

... Jindabyne - The actual total numbers of SOE operatives
parachuted into Holland and into the hands of the waiting Gestapo is somewhere between 50 to 60 - although the figures could well be higher
where any captured agents may have been 'induced' to give information
that could have led to further arrests. There is little doubt that most
- if not all of the agents would have been executed.

...

[Wander00]

And as Leo Marks relates, no one in authority would accept it was happening!

[John James]

How tragic that incompetent poobahs run a show like that.. Just read
-' Carve her name with Pride'.
j

[Wander00]

Leo Marks wrote Violet Szabo's code poem, "The love that I have is the life that I have....."

[Warmtoast]

pasir

In the Burgess and Maclain affair British intelligence would repeat such incompetence when in later years they were warned by Canadian Intelligence that a British University trained traitor had infiltrated the highly secret Atomic research establishment - but again chose to ignore the tip off.


"but again chose to ignore the tip off" - a little disingenuous I think.

Presumably you are referring to the atom spy Alan Nunn May who was exposed by the defection of Igor Gouzenko in Ottawa in September 1945.
Igor Gouzenko was a GRU (Soviet Military Intelligence) cipher clerk in the Soviet Embassy in Ottawa who defected to the West in September 1945. Gouzenko passed copies of GRU documents implicating British scientist Alan Nunn May. The British were advised of this.

Nunn May was questioned at Harwell on 15th February 1946 (the day after it became public knowledge that Gouzenko had defected), questioning continued and on 20th February 1946 he confessed he’d been in touch with a Soviet agent, and had given the agent a report on atomic research and two samples of uranium.

On 1st May 1946 Nunn May was tried at the Old Bailey and after a one-day trial, sentenced to ten years hard labour.

Alan Nunn May’s treachery and investigation is mentioned extensively in Christopher Andrew’s authorized history of MI5 “The Defence of the Realm”.

The National Archives list the relevant MI5 files available for public scrutiny here:

Atom spy Alan Nunn May and related files | The National Archives (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/releases/2007/march/atom.htm)

As regards the "Englandspiel" Christopher Andrew mentions this on The National Archives web site:


In 1942, the operation by the British Special Operations Executive, SOE, to land Dutch agents in occupied Netherlands, was penetrated by German agents, which used the agents' codes to lure SOE into sending more agents and to provide them with intelligence and supplies, both of them quickly snaffled by the Germans.

In all, about 50 Dutch agents were identified, captured and executed, and among the new MI5 releases is the file of Adolf F-, a German agent who took part in the Englandspiel, and was interrogated about it by MI5 after the Second World War, and there are also files of a series of other real or suspected German agents and German intelligence officers in the new releases


See here:

MI5 file release August 2010 | The National Archives (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/podcasts/mi5-file-release-aug-2010.htm)

[jindabyne]

pasir

Do you have any info as to how many agents that were parachuted into Holland during that period did not fall into German hands?

[Warmtoast]

Further info from TNA about SOE in Holland and in particular that the sorry events of "The Englandspiel" have been fully described in M R D Foote's official history of SOE in the Low Countries.


Holland

(KV 6/33-35)

SOE's work in Holland was the most seriously compromised of all their operations, with circuits thoroughly penetrated by the Germans, captured radio sets played back successfully and skilfully to SOE in London with false information, and scores of SOE agents parachuted directly into German hands. The sorry tale is fully described in M R D Foot's official history SOE in the Low Countries, and the story of SOE's slow realisation that its Dutch operations were hopelessly penetrated in Leo Marks' Between Silk and Cyanide.

KV 6/34 relates to Security Service interrogations of two agents, code-named SPROUT and CHIVE, who had managed to escape from Holland and were interrogated on their return to the UK, and to general SOE security in Holland. SPROUT was Pieter Dourlein, a secret army agent dropped into Holland in March 1943 and arrested on landing. Dourlein escaped in August 1943 and returned to Britain. He subsequently wrote about his experiences in the book Inside North Pole. CHIVE was Johan Ubbink, a radio operator parachuted in to Holland in November 1942, who escaped and returned with Dourlein. There is a summary of their case at folio 77a.

KV 6/35 continues the story, and includes a letter of protest from Ubbink at his arrest in May 1944 (which was done to protect Operation OVERLORD) and correspondence relating to the agents' appeals for assistance to the Dutch government in exile. The file includes suspicions voiced by Major Wethered that CHIVE may have been a double agent, and copies of reports of the two agents' interrogations. Both KV 6/34 and KV 6/35 are indexed.

[pasir]

WT - In addition to the excellent info you give on the the defection of the Russian cypher clerk Gouzenko to Canadian authorities I am almost certain that in addition there was an unrelated Canadian sourced tip off to the UK relevant authority to the effect that a University educated traitor had been recruited and was working within the UK - passing secrets on to the Soviets. I can only recollect reading that our UK relevant authority ignored the tip off - but will try and provide further details.

..

[henry crun]

pasir: Assuming you refer to the Dutch section fiasco, I am not "unhappy about the aformentioned disclosures in which SOE were heavily.."

The only reason I queried your statement is that I read a long time ago the French resistance were the ones who requested the Amiens raid be carried out, and since then I have seen nothing to suggest that was not the reason.
.

[ColinB]

The whole SOE operation in France was a can of worms.
There is some credibility in the theory that the actions of Dansey, Kieffer, Bommelberg, Dericourt and Boddington led to the French Resistance and hapless SOE agents being used in strategic deception to fool the Germans that an invasion was imminent in France earlier than D-Day.
I do recall reading that de Gaulle forced a policy of no French nationals being used as SOE agents. So the recruiting base was limited to French speaking foreigners.
There was also the long term problem in that the majority of resisters were Communists and there was a determination that they would not rule a post war France. This allegedly led to Generals Le Clerc and Patton being diverted to liberate Paris with de Gaulle in tow

[pasir]

Rather a belated notice but just a reminder -
'Operation Jericho' - Being repeated this evening
- Saturday BBC 2 1840

...