Have you ever known both pilots fallen asleep at the controls?

[Stroppalot]

If so, for how long? What (if any) were the implications?

[AffirmBrest]

Whoop Whoop! Journo alert!

(If you are not one of our friends in the media - I apologise. Can't be too careful nowadaze :))

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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...

[Sick Squid]

Sniff, Sniff...

Mmmm. Journalist.

;)

[Stroppalot]

No, sorry - not a journo. If I was, I would be asking for info like what airline, what route, how many pax, etc etc. As it is, I would specifically urge you not to reveal this sort of info! (not that anyone is dumb enough to, anyway)


*** HEADLINE NEWS ***
The Daily Spam can exclusively reveal that airline pilots >>DO<< fall asleep at the controls of their planes. Erm... we don't know which planes, or even what airline. Or even where, or when. But we can reveal exclusively that it does happen, because we've seen posts on the PPRuNe bulletin board. One pilot, by the name of Flaps15 said that he and his FO fell asleep for 30 minutes once! Another pilot, going by the name of Stroppalot said that on one occasion, both he and his Captain were asleep all the way from London Gatwick to JFK in the states.

Come on! Stop being so blinking paranoid!

[Sick Squid]

Alright then, how does "No" sound to you? Not even heard of it happening in quiet over-a-beer chat to someone else. Sorry that's not the answer you want, but in 13 years of commercial aviation never heard of it.

Happy? I can't understand your ulterior motive in posting this; at least journalists' motives are transparent, gawd bless'em. Good luck anyhow...

£6
Paranoid, and proud of it.

[captain marvellous]

I used to have a nice little NASA nap when I was doing single pilot night freight in Metroliners. The radio was very quiet at that time of night and the autopilot seemed reliable enough. The three hour sectors were so boring.

I did do some unplanned NASA napping one day on a passenger charter in a Baron with no autopilot. I woke up after about 40 seconds of slumber to see a 1500 fpm descent and 45 degrees left wing down. I casually looked over at the front seat passenger to notice that he was looking out his side window and had not noticed. He smiled at me and seemed to be quite happy with the way things had been progressing.

That really made me think about a subtle incapacitation scenario (eg falling asleep) and how far the pax would let it get out of shape before they would feel the necessity to have a go themselves. Talking single pilot here of course.

As for two crew ops, every company I have ever worked for has an ops manual requirement that First Officers are prohibited from sleeping whilst in flight.

Sounds very reasonable to me!

[Big Red ' L ']

I dont care what anyone thinks, this guy/girl is a journo....Come back and call me paranoid if you want stropp, that won't make a stitch of differance, i still think your a journo. Most on here can spot 'em a mile off.........

P.S. Why lack of info in your profile..?

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Its not the fall that kills you...Its the sudden stop.....

[Stroppalot]

Yeah, whatever...

Like I said - this is a questions forum. I asked a question. If you don't want to answer, then that's fine. I just don't really see the point of going to the trouble to make a post just to say "oooh, look eveyone - he must be a journo, because he's asked a slightly risque question". Why bother?...

[Sensible]

I did hear a story once of a flight from the East coast of the USA to Los Angeles which flew right on out into the Pacific for about 30mins then the crew woke up and doubled back for a landing. That's very probably a folklore story though!

[SpeedBird22]

Sorry guys I have to back stroppalot up here....

Not only is this an anonymous bulletin board but the answers given to random questions such as these are hardly going to end up on the front page of The Times.

Even if they did, unless someone came along and gave juicy details of airline, route, date etc. etc. It wouldn't harm anyone or any company.

Can I bring your your attention to other forum threads on this board like "The purpose of accident investigation, your opinion" and "Pilots to be drug tested regularly". Despite the fact the person on the former post expressly stated he/she was not a journo, wouldn't you do the same if you actually were, and wanted to squeeze info out of people?

Anyway, this is a QUESTIONS forum, answer the questions, keep it anonymous (if it is a touchy subject) and everyone will be happy.

:) :) SpeedBird22 :) :)

[747FOCAL]

Whats the difference between falling asleep and playing video games??? I have seen pilots on several different airlines playing gameboys??? Or are they miny simulators??? :)~

[AffirmBrest]

You don't need names and pack drill to write an article which says: "A pilot source confirmed that this happens regularly, and even went on to describe one incident where..."; you get the idea.

Lack of info in the profile, coupled with simultaneous, journo-like Qs on other topics in this thread and getting a bit too stroppy when your request for info was declined - not the typical behaviour of a polite, keen spotter, wannabe or aviation enthusiast.

Sorry if we have been mistaken but spend some time on this forum or do a search o R&N for 'journalist', 'journo' etc. and you will see the reasons why a non-regulated, non-censored industry with carte blanche to write whatever misleading scare-mongering sensationalist crap it likes, making our lives a misery and often costing the jobs of our colleagues, would perhaps not be popular.

Try lurking a bit before leaping in - you might find the information here anyway. BAW22 IS a real wannabe - it's obvious from his politeness, honesty and previous posts. Take lessons.

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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...

[Stroppalot]

Thanks for the backup Speedbird.

Thanks also to those who gave a sensible response.

[Stroppalot]

Well AffirmBrest, I have to respond to your post.

You said <<You don't need names and pack drill to write an article which says: "A pilot source confirmed that this happens regularly...>>. Well yes, you are probably right. But then if I was an underhanded journalist, I would just post whatever sensationalist replies I wanted to my own question using a different nickname!!! (or has your thought path not gone that far???)

You said <<...Lack of info in the profile...>> - well, yes. That's my right, I'm afraid. Any anyway, would "Occupation : Electrician, Email address : [email protected], Interests : Aviation" be proof that I'm NOT a journalist?

You also said <<...coupled with simultaneous, journo-like Qs on other topics in this thread...>> Huh? What papers do you read pal? My other questions include "How do trans-atlantic flights navigate" and "How far away is that airliner?" Hardly going to get Rupert Murdoch excited is it?

You also said <<...getting a bit too stroppy when your request for info was declined...>>. Now come off it! Scroll up the page and take a look at the pattern of posts. 1:I ask a polite question. 2:I get a response <<Sniff, Sniff...Mmmm. Journalist.>> Followed by <<Whoop Whoop! Journo alert!>>. I then responded with <<No, sorry - not a journo. If I was, I would be asking for info like what airline, what route, how many pax, etc etc. As it is, I would specifically urge you not to reveal this sort of info!>>. Could you perhaps highlight where I was getting stroppy? Do I not have the right to say that I am not a journo?

You also said <<Try lurking a bit before leaping in>>. Well, sorry buddy - I've been 'lurking' on PPRuNe (albeit as a non-poster) for two years or more.

I can understand your concerns, and yes, you do have valid reasons to be cautious of Journalists, but what I can't understand is the need to go to the trouble of posting an 'insult' when you don't have the facts. If you don't trust the post, then GO TO ANOTHER TOPIC - DON'T PARTICIPATE! What right do you have to call me a journalist? How the hell do you know? If you don't want to give information, then that's entirely your perogative, and I respect that. But let others decide for themselves if they want to post a response or not.

I have noticed over the last couple of years a decline in the standards of postings on PPRuNe. Some of this is because of the pretenders "I am a BA captain on a 747", who happen to be schoolkids posting junk. A lot of the problem, however, is because of people slagging other people off when they don't know the facts and don't know how to keep their thoughts to themselves. You will kill PPRuNe. This is a QUESTIONS forum. I have a right to ask a question without getting accused of looking for sensationalist gutter-press stories.

Anyway, lock the thread, delete the thread, reply with flames or other unfounded accusations... I don't really give a hoot !

Love and Kisses, Stroppy!

[TyroPicard]

Yes, Once in twenty years. The flight engineer woke us up; he couldn't sleep because of the snoring.

As for falling asleep driving home, that happens about once a month.

[This message has been edited by TyroPicard (edited 21 March 2001).]

[AffirmBrest]

Easy Stroppalot - wonder how you got your name?

Nowhere in my post was there anything intended as a personal insult - it was merely meant as an explanation for why some would hesitate before answering questions such as yours on this forum. I have high regard for only a few journalists (you may have gathered) - hence my initial cynicism (and apology if I had got it wrong).

Your subsequent responses were flippant and sarcastic to say the least 'Yeah, whatever..' and 'stop being so blinking paranoid' - My 2nd post was to explain why those who had been cynical in the first place held those views.

My assumption that you had done little lurking was based only on the fact that I know that similar queries, with answers to all your Qs, have been posted on these pages in recently history - certainly in the last 2 years. I apologise for this, your PPRuNing credentials are safe!

As for an answer - try David Beatys Book 'The Naked Pilot' - lots in there about Fatigue/Tiredness and some examples such as those you seek. Personally, I have taken it in turns to take naps on long night charters - with the express pre-brief that should the awake pilot feel even slightly droopy, he wake the sleeper without hesitation, and if we are both having trouble staying awake we put the lights on and get one of the cabin crew in for conversation. Never had a problem with it.

Sorry I rattled your cage, but as me old pappy used to say: it's better to be a pessimist than an optimist - you are always less frequently disappointed.

Rgds, AB

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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...

[captain marvellous]

You've got cabin crew who can hold a conversation? GOSH!

[Alien Shores]

So lets see if I've got this right stropman...

You ask a question which wouldn't be out of place in the National Enquirer, and everyone just rolls over and barks like dogs in the rush to answer you. Is that the script?

Get real. And no, I've never heard of it happening either. One at a time, two in the bunks even, but never at the controls.

Congratulations on winning the most appropriate user name award 2001, however. Other aliases include Shortfuse and Unreal_Expectations, perhaps?

[AffirmBrest]

Capt M - I didn't say the conversation wuz WITH the cabin crew, I sed they wuz there FOR conversation :)

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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...

[WOODENTOP]

Stroppalot.

I also have noticed that, If you ask a question or respond to one you then spend time posting in order to justify yourself.

You can ask whatever you like mate !! and should not have to put with pathetic insults.

There are a minority of ppruners that like nothing better than to spoil the question in hand, I believe they are known as w**kers.

I agree with all you had to say in that lengthy post of yours.

[WOODENTOP]

Stroppalot,

Before you take offence at the insults that Alien Shores has directed at you, take a look at his personal page.

People in glass houses should not throw stones (Mr. A Shores).

Beam me up Scotty.

[Alien Shores]

er....Woodentop; where exactly are the insults in my posts? I merely state an observation and opinion, never insulted the gentleman. He's entitled to his opinion, I'm entitled to point out where I disagree. If I choose to suggest other user names, is that an insult? I thought it was quite subtle.

Sorry, but life is way too short to take offence....

Night night...

edit...

oops... and the edit is to point out that I actually answered his question in my post. More than you did, my wooden friend.

Also, I never referred to anyone as a "w star star star star star -ers," (unlike you) whatever that means.

That line about insulting people... run it by me just one more time, please; I obviously don't understand what an insult is....

Sweet dreams.. don't let the woodworm bite!

[This message has been edited by Alien Shores (edited 21 March 2001).]

[Cosmo]

SpeedBird22,

Good point, but the reason I expressly stated that I was not a journalist was that someone would have at some point in time probably questioned it. I'm just a good old student thinking I might get informative comment to a legitimate question: which I did and for which I'm grateful.


Cheers,
Cosmo

P.S this reply is not intended to be defensive nor critical of SpeedBird22's reply above. ;)

[SpeedBird22]

Right. Hello its me again. Just a couple of points to make before I get a brew on and get back to the TV. :)

1) I think it is quite amusing that a thread titled 'Have you ever known both pilots to fall asleep at the controls' has turned into a full on journo debate. Hehe.

2) AffirmBrest - I fully appreciate that you have been around for a while and most likely know exactly what you are talking about. However, just like you can smell a journalist, I'm beginning to pick up the scent of a bit of an old boy network going on here. "BAW22 IS a real wannabe" - Don't you think its taking this whole thing a bit far when we start scrutinising other peoples details and decide they aren't genuine and don't deserve a normal answer? One of my first posts here was a question about engine failures. I got a great response and went away happy. Lets just keep it that way and (without sounding like I'm a preacher) treat everyone as equals. Please don't think I'm having a go, as I realise you made good in your last post :)

3)Cosmo - G'evening buddy. I agree with what you're saying...just picked it out as an example :)
But (are you all bored yet??) I find it a bit sad when we have to include disclaimers in our post like "I'm not a journo" and in particular "this reply is not intended to defensive nor critical etc etc". I realise you're probably joking but this leads me nicely onto my final point. I don't have any authority to say it at all and please don't hate me but I hope this'll be the end of it:

*** ENOUGH paranoia about journalists.
Enough arguing over whether someone was
insulted or whether they have the right
to have a seemingly legit question
answered in a mature way. I really feel
people take this site too seriously. It
IS important, but hey, focus on your
flying rather than typing or arguing
skills! ***

I rest my case. Have fun.

:) :) SpeedBird22 :) :)

[Big Red ' L ']

Stropp...........I am sorry. You are clearly not a journo.

Seriously though, have you thought about a career in journalism when you leave school...?

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Its not the fall that kills you...Its the sudden stop.....

[AffirmBrest]

BAW22 - No sign at all of an old boy network from where I'm sitting - when I mentioned that I believed you were a 'geniuine' wannabe (please don't take offence - I wuz won wunce) I meant to illustrate to Stroppalot that there were polite and humble ways to phrase a query which lend themselves somewhat better to a polite and humble response. I have explained the reasons behind the initial reactions to some of SLs posts, and apologised if those were misplaced.

If someone asks me a question, fine. I reserve the right not to answer, if I am at all sceptical of their credentials or motivation for asking. Once their credentials are established, I will answer to the best of my knowledge and free time.

The effort required to establish ones credentials, however, will vary from person to person and question to question - and the manner in which the poster subsequently responds will affect future replies and may even draw others to their own conclusions. Much like a 'real' conversation. That's how it goes.

I am a personal aquaintaince of one the 'infamous' BA pilots who were unjustly (IMHO) sacked thanks to a muck-raking journalist. My scepticism on this matter can be understood. No further explanation needed.

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...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...

[Pom Pax]

Jouno or not somewhere out there in the distant past is a reference to this problem, so do a bit of home work.
A long haul captain openly reported he woke up to find he was the only person awake on the flight deck.
Probably a long time ago as I seem to remember he was in an area which is nowdays avoided.

[Honest Frank]

Talking to an exRAF pilot whilst on a course recently he told me this story,"flying the Nimrod,they would take it in turns to have a kip on long sectors- he remembers waking up to find the other crew fast asleep too????"

[SpeedBird22]

AffirmBrest - Yup I can understand your scepticism and no offence was taken about calling me a genuine wannabe :) I am, and thanks for your other comments.

SpeedBird22

[Capt Claret]

Had a skipper fall asleep once, with his guest in the jump seat. I only realised when the snoring came over the interphone.

I was told by another F/O, that the same skipper fell asleep whilst hand flying. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

[Rogaine addict]

I had just finished my F/E checkride that evening, my IOE instructor recognized that I was very tired and offered to take the trip out(I would observe). At top of climb the CA fell asleep with head on the back of his chair. The FO fell asleep with his head up against the glare shield and the SO (IOE instructor) kept falling asleep and almost hitting his head on the desk. I was the only one awake, but I didn't have a mic at the JS station. Personally, I prefer that the naps are planned and one-at-a-time.

[Bullethead]

I clearly remember once that both of us were awake for at least five minutes!?! :) :) :)

[flyblue]

It happened to me once ( I was a Cabin chief), after a 24 hours LH layover following a 2 sectors O/B, and during the 2 sectors I/B night flight, to find both pilots asleep. The FO was on his planned nap hour, and the CPT just fell asleep. I was embarrassed for him, and I asked him loud if he needed some coffee too wake him up.
Of course you must know as a FA, that those things may happen when pilots (and FA)are treated like robots and not human beings, and check on the FD more often (thing that helps you too to remain awake!).

[Stan Evil]

Back in the early seventies an entire Vulcan crew (5 people maybe plus a crew chief) fell asleep on the way back across the Atlantic after a very heavy few nights at the Goose. They eventually woke up to find they'd coasted-in to the UK on the wrong side of Ireland (south of it instead of north). Needless to say all of them were wide awake the next day when they had a very one-sided conversation with AOC 1 Group!

[Invaribly]

Stroppalot,
In answer to your initial question AA pilots are notorious for falling asleep at the wheel so to speak because they generally work v.long hrs -especially the MD 80 crew.The crash in june '99 in little Rock was due to 'pilot fatigue' - a nice way of saying that both guys (incl capt Bushmann)was very tired after a near 14 hr shift - bloody awful if you ask me,but hey thats America for you.Thats why they get paid so much;so they can be worked like slaves.