How to get there as a student

[Poeli]

First, some prehistory of myself. I’m 22 years old, went to college and got a bachelor degree in aeronautical engineering. Now I’m taking classes to become a master in aeronautical engineering. This takes in total two years. In my bachelor I had the choice to begin the theory for the atpl and start the flight training. But the school was the classic ‘lie to the students and put their money in my pocket’ school. To be short: I didn’t like them. So I decided to graduate as engineer and not as a ‘pilot’ (only atpl theory and some flying hours).

Then I was looking out to begin flight training, after my bachelor. I tried the Jetairfly cadet programme and was given a negative response in the 2nd round. So I decided to start the master courses. I’m sure that, when I graduate I will be looking to start flight training again. Maybe I will do it, maybe not.
Now I’m trying to save as much money as possible to train modular. But as a student, it seems impossible. Just yesterday I worked in a car factory with toxic paints without a gas mask. All day long. I had a breakdown in the evening, questioning myself why work that much and why flight training is so ridiculous expensive. Normally I have enough money saved as a student to start my PPL next summer. But that’s only the beginning. Rent an aircraft and go flying for one hour: work 2 days as a student. Rent a twin engined aircraft at the local flight school and fly it for one hour: work 7 days. Is it me or is this crazy?

I feel like it’s- no matter how hard and much I work as a student- it’s impossible to get to my objective. I don’t even get close. I work every summer and save around 80% of it. This for already 3 years. If I would take on integrated lessons (I’m not going to do it) I would have around 5% of the budget needed for it. Are there any other people in my situation? Trying to make it work as a student but feeling they won’t make it? It’s like I’m fighting something I can’t win from, and keep on fighting against it because I’ve set my mind on it.

I’ve thought a lot of putting the whole idea out of my mind. But I have no idea how to do it. Sure, I’m able to do it for like 3 weeks. But when I go to an airport, see an airplane or even see the inside of an airport I know I want to fly and the feeling of ‘I want to but it seems impossible right now’ is there.
Going on like this as a student is crazy I think. If I go further with training the only (cheaper) option Is FAA modular (while I work as an aeronautical engineer in Europe). I don’t care where I would work, whether it’s in Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, the USA or what I fly, whether it’s an old Cessna or a CRJ… But the way it goes right now is just not right. I feel like the only thing I’m doing is studying, working and not living. I’m not the one to complain about working: I’ve worked in car factories, airports, fruit juice companies, meat companies, prepared food companies.

But there are certain limits. I feel like I’m working but not seeing any result of it. Yes my bank account slightly increases, but at the same time the costs of flight training increase.

Has anyone some tips or ideas? Going modular after I have my master degree and work as an engineer? Trying to go for the FAA licences? How to put the idea of becoming a pilot out of my head? I have no debts from college I'm currently taking, my parents have decent jobs (doctor and dentist). But I'm not willing to look my parents in the eyes and ask them for money. They've worked for it, so should I.

[IrishJason]

There's no shame in asking for a small amount of help, The way your going now will lead to you burning yourself out and becoming agitated at the career. That or drive yourself mad trying to make it off your own back while at the very moment it may not be possible. I'm not saying ask your parents for a massive amount of money but anything will help, Its easy to pay them back if they can do it without putting themselves under pressure. :ok: Best of luck in any case

[Genghis the Engineer]

I have a similar background - I started learning to fly when I was an aeronautical engineering undergraduate - got my PPL just after graduating, and then decided that I loved both flying and engineering and was going to pursue both.

And I have - it's 19 years since I graduated with my first degree, and in engineering I've gained CEng and a PhD, whilst in flying CPL & CRI (and needless to say, quite a lot of other things in both fields, including clocking up 97 types in my logbook, 63 of them as PiC).

With a fresh masters you are just about employable in engineering, and with a PPL you're a little behind that in flying but in a position to gain professional qualifications. Under EASA you'll even be able to teach on a PPL and get paid come a rule change next year.

So, I think that you have three choices, and they really come down to your personal aptitudes and passions:

(1) Ditch the engineering, become a full time professional pilot following the usual career route.

(2) Accept just being a keen PPL, maybe doing a bit of weekend instruction, and concentrate on building your career as a professional engineer.

(3) Build parallel engineering and flying careers - which will potentially open up the sort of stuff I've done for the last 20 years - flight test engineering, test piloting, and research flying.


Lots of people can talk about (1) and (2) - (1) in particular is covered by numerous threads on Pprune. On the other hand (2) you'll find plenty about in literature from various engineering institutions and large employers.

(3), which I can talk about with some authority, will make you an oddball - you'll be unsuitable for a lot of mainstream jobs in both engineering and flying. You're unlikely to be expert enough in any particular stress or CFD package to get a top-paid job in a design office, whilst you're unlikely to have the large numbers of hours in particular types / kinds of flying to get a well paid captaincy.

However, speaking for myself - I don't care. Operating a CAD system 40 hours a week, or driving a 300 seat bus 800 hours per year, would strike me personally as narrow and dull.

So, I've back-seated fighters, observed trials on board an aircraft carrier, presented papers all over the world on various aspects of aeronautics, designed bits of various aeroplanes and helicopters (and briefly, a satellite, although it never got launched), crewed 10 first flights of new-build aeroplanes, 6 of them as PiC, given evidence to my country's parliament, never been unemployed, not struggled for money since I was about 30, and continue to have a huge amount of fun. And I still would be unemployable in a stress office or an airline cockpit.

Truth is, I'm a good but not exceptional pilot, a good but not exceptional engineer, and have also discovered that I'm a good but not exceptional manager - but I'm lucky enough to be able to be good at al three at the same time, which has been my edge so far.


So, I'd say work out which of engineering and flying are where your real skills and enthusiasm lie - and then work out which way to go. If you have enthusiasm and a high degree of skill in both you might want to consider following me, if you have skill as an engineer but only really enthusiasm as a pilot - become a professional engineer and keen PPL; if you have real skill and enthusiasm as a pilot and only really tolerate engineering - ditch the engineering and become a full time professional pilot.

Which is a problem only you can solve - the rest of us can just present the options for you really.

I'll offer one other opinion however - at 22 you really don't need to be in a screaming hurry. Use the next 4 years or so to get yourself on the right path, without killing yourself or destroying all joy in life. There are plenty of people who have established themselves as professional pilots or professional engineers in their 40s - you are well ahead of the game.

Actually one last opinion, don't work anywhere that might jeapordise your flying medical. A paintshop with no respirators available is definitely one of those.

Okay, yet another opinion having re-read your original post. All three of the options I've laid out start with a PPL. I'd recommend getting your PPL reasonably soon, and discovering how well you can fly, and how much you really enjoy flying. Stop mucking about with ATPL exams until you've got that and done at-least a bit of flying as a licenced PiC. Until you do that, you really don't know how good you are as a pilot, nor how much you really enjoy it. Saving up to do your PPL in the USA with one of the JAA schools in Florida *may* be the way ahead there, although do recognise that the USA is not Europe so you'll have to do some instruction when you get back to learn how to fly at home.

G

[Poeli]

Thank you for the advice, if I could combine the two it would be fabulous! I love engineering, but the two combined would be heaven.
I'll start to look to get some little jobs every saturday and save the money to start the ppl training in the beginning of next year.

You are right, there is no hurry, but sometimes it feels it goes too slow. We are allowed to work 50 days a year here as a student with 2,70% of taxes. That gives me a net total of around 4k, of which I at least save 3k to fly.

I have to go to the car company again tomorrow. I'll say that I'll quit (was the first time I worked over there) because my boss didn't even speak my language, nor did they give me the right protection. (I already said during the work to my co-workers that it was the first and last time I worked there).

Yesterday I was riding back with my bike from work and was just thinking about it. Maybe it was because the work was really *****, they didn't give me the right equipment and ect, but I felt like stupid and naive.
First things first, concentrate on the engineering degree and later on the PPL.
Thanks again

[Poeli]

I've been looking at some of my options. I've stumbled on a topic here where people were saying the FAA licences were may be worth looking at. Or isn't this a good idea as an Eu citizen?

[PPRuNeUser0180]

Have you thought about getting your gliders license?

From what I've heard it's a cost-effective way to learn to fly, but it's also a great tool for networking (one of the most important things in aviation).
It will definitely cure a bit of your addiction (in the sense you won't be counting down till your first flight as it will drive you mad!) and over the whole budget you will definitely earn the money back on the first hours for your PPL !

With your a&p license in your hand , why not look for a weekend/vacation job in avation? Why not try a small company that services cessna's and the likes, that way when you get a modular CPL there will be chances opening up around the world with experience as pilot and mechanic 'on type' ?
That is if you are open to things like bush flying, or would you rather hope for a spot doing 'bus driving'?

About the FAA license, I think it depends what type of flying you are open to:
If you want to jump straight into a jet aircraft or are happy to live a few years on a minimum wage in Africa (trying to pay for your flight school)...
A JAA license can be converted easily to FAA, the other way around is going be costly, will take time and not being eligible for a job in Europe means all your networking in the world won't be able to help you!

In your case starting to work as an aviation engineer/mechanic while doing a modular CPL/IR in Belgium makes a lot more sense than going to the US and blowing all your money in a year's time (at the same expenses eventually if you add up the travel and accomodation expenses etc).
At least that's what I have in mind, but there are many routes to Rome (although the one heading South will be a lot easier than setting of North from here...)

Kind regards,
Koen

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've been looking at some of my options. I've stumbled on a topic here where people were saying the FAA licences were may be worth looking at. Or isn't this a good idea as an Eu citizen?
An FAA licence is only really useful to you, certainly where professional licences are concerned, if you are able to work in the USA. Otherwise stick to JAA licences.

That said, there are a number of JAA schools in the USA, so training for your JAA licence(s) is potentially possible in the USA at a substantial cost saving.


With your a&p license in your hand
The man is doing degrees in aeronautical engineering, not a certificate course in maintenance engineering. Absolutely no resemblence to an A&P qualification.

In some English speaking countries there are too many variations on the word "Engineer". It is certainly clear to me that the OP is not doing a mechanics course.

G

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

I have just read your post and sympathise, it brought back similar feelings I had as an up and coming wannabe professional pilot.

I must say there is some absolutely sound advice from Genghis the Engineer.

One thing, on a positive note is your age. At 22 you still have a number of years to work through your mission and achieve your goals. I worked as a professional engineer from the age of 22 to the age of 27. The money I had earned I invested in my flying training to achieve a career of a professional pilot. I guess in a nutshell, my point is that with your skills in engineering you have the potential to utilise these to generate cash in that industry to use for your training, however, it will take time.

Your comments about being around aircraft, airports and aviation in general obviously lets us all know that aviation is in your blood and makes you feel a certain way. I and many others that read these forums share those emotions, which is one of the reasons a career in aviation is for you.

Keep focused mate, be positive and realistic and I am sure your dreams and goals will unfold.

I wish you all the very best, go for it.