Agusta Crash in Mexico City

[BlenderPilot]

An Agusta 109S Grand just crashed in the Middle of Mexico City, this belonged to the State of Mexico Goverment, recent model, excellent maintenance, that division operates about 6 Agustas, all recently purchased, so far 2 dead.

The aircraft was in cruise flight and had a problem, came down in a heavily populated area.

Confusión por víctimas en caída de helicóptero - El Universal - DF (http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/802957.html)

[Jet Ranger]

Two pilots, or pilot & passenger ?

[BlenderPilot]

Four POB, two pax, two pilots, one of each is dead.

[Aser]

http://fotos.eluniversal.com.mx/web_img/fotogaleria/010helicop-voyo6.jpg

http://fotos.eluniversal.com.mx/web_img/fotogaleria/010helicop-voyo5.jpg

http://fotos.eluniversal.com.mx/web_img/fotogaleria/010heli-coyo7.JPG

Any mayday while going down? :confused:

R.I.P.

[Jet Ranger]

Name of the pilot? Does anybody know?

[BlenderPilot]

The deceased was named: Juan Esteban Rodriguez Ruiz, they were in cruise flight and the aircraft had a very sudden problem that caused it to crash, they were up for a 15 minute flight.

[henra]

Any mayday while going down? :confused:

R.I.P.

Looking at the pristine condition of the visible tailrotor blade (also compared to the M/R bldes) I might be tempted to believe in the mechanical problem statement....to some degree

[rotorspeed]

Given that (a) this aircraft looks to be in a condition for the cause to probably be fairly quickly identified, (b) surviving crew, (c) no obvious high risk factors, and (d) no doubt plenty of concerned 109S operators, I'm surprised we've had no further updates here, 6 days on. Blender - any news?

[hillberg]

Damage to the main rotors show damn near Zero rpm,Vertical crushing not good, Bad Maintenance? Bad piloting? No fuel left to burn? Can't stand to see a "New" looking machine the falls out of the sky. It brings up the need to review the people that worked or didn't work with this opperation.

[rotorbrent]

Main rotor tip blades intact and leading edges not damaged. With main rotor aft blade damage means collective up and no or near zero rotor RPM.

Tail rotor picture of TR blade with impact damage but no rotational damage to leading edges TR blades not turning or near zero rpm.

Aircraft had to be desending with collective up and rotors not being driven by the engines.

Aircraft in all one spot so inpact was at near zero airspeed

Dual engine failure, fuel exhaustion?

Tail rotor drive failure, bad Autorotation?

Control system failure?


My prayers for the passengers and familys

[BlenderPilot]

This crash was very disconcerting, this operator operates 3 109S's and several Koalas, all crew had been to Italy at least once a year for simulator training, also all mechanics were factory trained and current, most aircraft are new and in TOP NOTCH condition, Fuel Exahustion is OUT OF THE QUESTION, highly experienced crew, out for a short flight, how can you run out of fuel 3 minutes into the flight when you had about 20 more minutes to go? That aircraft gives you plenty of warning . . . .

People are talking about TR failure, some say something about the ECU, some control system, who knows?

That aircraft had some sort of catastrophic failure that made it come down like that, I hope they find out soon and they let everyone know what happened, unfortunately the manufacturers such as Agusta and Bell take advantage of the fact that in countries such as ours accident investigations are kept very confidential, (stupidly) and this helps cover up many accidents due to mechanical fault.

[Epiphany]

Blender - do you know if they were landing or taking off from one of the rooftop helipads in the city?

[iuk1963]

That aircraft had some sort of catastrophic failure that made it come down like that


I always get surprised to see conclusions like this without any knowledge and/or element; only reading few posts and looking at a couple of photos... :ugh:

[Senior Pilot]

I always get surprised to see conclusions like this without any knowledge and/or element; only reading few posts and looking at a couple of photos... :ugh:

Since BlenderPilot is Mexico based and has an intimate knowledge of the operations there, I suspect that he has more idea than you or I as to what may have happened.

He is certainly not making his conclusions on reading posts here, nor seeing a couple of photos :=

[BlenderPilot]

Blender - do you know if they were landing or taking off from one of the rooftop helipads in the city?

On this particular flight, NO and YES, they had just taken off a ground level helipad and going to a rooftop helipad about 30 miles away in Toluca which had an elevation of 8,700 FTAMSL and were about 7 miles away from there departure point, in straight and level flight from it when they crashed, they were about 6 miles away from Mexico City International Airport, they took off uneventfully and reported their takeoff normally, crashed about 3 minutes later without warning.

I hate it when an aircraft just goes down like that, as I said before, this is a VERY professional outfit, every effort was made to keep all their aircraft well maintained, pilots and mechanics well trained, the aircraft was fairly new. I fly a 109E in Mexico City everyday and I just hope we find out what happened, it would be very unfair not to, for all Agusta operators.

[rotorrookie]

Chill out guys with the speculation's, how can you state something like "Bad Maintenance? Bad piloting? No fuel left to burn?" from just two photos cmon. It could just been sabotage given its a government aircraft in a country that had been fighting organized crime for years, just another out of the blue speculation.

[Savoia]

Blender

Has there been any feedback from any sources on the possible cause of this tragic indicent.

Rgds

Sav

[BlenderPilot]

Apparently they had an engine overspeed due to a line in the engine control clogging up, the pilot at the controls had 30 hours on type and on a similar helicopter.

[Savoia]

Blender, thank you for this.

Your initial concern over this incident also raised my own concerns - hence my enquiry.

What (please) is the standard procedure in a twin .. shut down the overspeeding engine and land with the assistance of the remaining one?

Is there a 109 mechanic who could elaborate on the engine control components most likely to 'clog up' and what pre-flight precautions (if any) can be taken to alert of systems/component failures capable of inducing an overspeed.

[ROTOR BLAST]

The A109S Grand has two engines doesn't it?

[grumpytroll]

a109s Grand

[Non-PC Plod]

Standard for an overspeeding engine is to put it into manual, and back off the power to a useful level. Shouldnt have caused a crash unless the overspeed protection failed for some reason, and the engine oversped so much it had a catastrophic event.

[Savoia]

NPCP: That was my thought also, something like a rotor burst but .. it would seem unlikely!

[Shawn Coyle]

Note - there is a fair degree of supposition in the following, but it may be worth considering.
If the engine oversped to the point of the power turbine wheel bursting (but not the compressor turbine), with this engine there would be no indication of an engine failure, and hence no access to the contingency power ratings.

This has happened before - the power turbine wheel disintegrated, and the compressor ran up to maximum fuel flow in an attempt to get the N2 signal back to 100%. Needless to say, since the compressor was working just fine, there was no engine failure declared by the computers, and the 2 minute and 30 second power ratings would not automatically be avaiable.
In the earlier incident, the pilot had time to look inside and figure out something was wrong and selected the correct engine to shut down. This allowed the contingency power ratings to be used and he landed safely. But the cockpit indications would be very confusing -on 'bad' engine- N1 and TOT maximum, zero torque, zero N2. 'Good' engine would have N1 and TOT appropriate to torque and good N2 signal. Probably have both low rotor warning and overtorque warning on at the same time. (Could you figure this out if it happened to you??)
Like I said, quite a bit of supposition here, but it may help someone who is trying to sort this out.

[Shell Management]

This has happened before Was that on a PT6?

Would there not be visible damage to the engine cowlings?

[Jet Ranger]

Do we talk about FCU failure on that flight?

[Savoia]

Shawn, that is an adept supposition, but it would be a rare thing, and SM is correct in that there would indeed be visible damage in the vicinity of the engines.

As you alluded; 'managing' (presumably shutting down) the correct engine would be crucial - there are enough examples where this procedure has been fouled-up even when the cockpit displays were blindingly obvious (or not .. as in the cases referred to!).

I would be keen if there was someone who could provide a brief overview of the mechanical (and other) factors which influence the onset of engine overspeed.

[hillberg]

What ever happened to GET the Collective DOWN on any low Rotor rpm?
Studied the history on the S-58. The single 1820 had a better survival rate than the PT 6 twinpac, Get back to basics & quit studing to death the engines & keep the rotors turnin. Rotor RPM is life.

[aegir]

There is a (interim) report pubblished, yet?

[ShyTorque]

What ever happened to GET the Collective DOWN on any low Rotor rpm?

That comes across as very arrogant and belittling, especially as we don't know the details of the failure. How do you know the failure involved low rotor RPM? If it was a runaway up, rather than a rundown, the opposite might have been true. There are other scenarios which could possibly result in the aircraft ending up looking like it did. The rotor rpm might have been used up in the last few feet, cushioning the touchdown over what looks to be a very restricted area.

Having flown this sole type for the past five years I have to say that that the engine display (strip gauges) are not the clearest ones I know.

[Shawn Coyle]

If the N2 wheel disintegrated, it's not a given that parts would fly out of the side of the engine, so there may not be any damage to the cowlings.

[hillberg]

Look at the damage as seen-No mistery-Even If you pulled pitch at the top of the trees the rotors show no rotational/inertial damage=Low or no Rotor rpm. It fell like a stone.Vertical crushing impact .Arrorgant? Belittling? Just looking at a wrecked Agusta with no post impact fire ,Vertical crushing , a rotor system with little if no leading edge damage. In any helicopter RPM is life-This example had None.

[Gemini Twin]

Especially with the containment rules we are required to comply with. Bits may come out of the exhaust though.

[ShyTorque]

In any helicopter RPM is life-This example had None.

So, bearing in mind there were survivors, how far do you think the aircraft fell with no Nr? The 109S has very good OEI performance and it looks for all the world that this was no straightforward engine failure.

[hillberg]

Look at whats left.

[rotorspeed]

Just over a year on from this, anyone know the final verdict? Has an official report been published? Blender?