Vulcan scramble

[airmail]

Hi all,

Took the kids to Hendon today - 3 girls aged under 10 who all loved the museum and what it offered - although it was initially intended to be a daddy afternoon out as I hadn't been there in years! Have to say I'm very impressed with the new hall and what has been done since my last time there.

Whilst there, we saw a video of a Vulcan scramble and I noticed that at one point there were three Vulcans on the runway at the same time. My question (and I'm not a professional pilot) is how could they do this without any wake turbulence having an effect? I did think that it might be due to the shape of the wings but then I thought that there had to be additional separation after Concorde took off?

Answers gratefully received

Thanks

airmail

[Treble one]

Glad you enjoyed Hendon-it's a cracking museum.

Likewise, I am no pilot, but am very interested in the operations of the V force.

I suspect that given the circumstances in which a scramble take off would be used (i.e. an imminent nuclear strike, unless an exercise Mickey Finn or suchaslike) then wake turbulence would be secondary to getting the bombers up and off to strike back at the Eastern Bloc?

There are others on here far better qualified than me, and who actually did it for real, who may be able to give a more definitive answer.

Regards
TO

[air pig]

Try 'Did you fly the Vulcan' thread in history part

[ACW418]

A Vulcan Scramble was no different than a stream take off for a formation. Typically the first aircraft goes high right on climb out, the next low left, the next low right and so on. The sequence is covered at the formation briefing so there are (or should be) no cock ups. These are military aircraft so not constrained by 747 type performance issues or noise abatement problems. Most modern airliners take off using a calculated throttle setting which is not full power to save engine life and fuel and tend to follow the same path. On the Vulcan in my day we used full power (103.5% on the 301 engines) and had the luxury of choosing our climb out path.

Very good fun though.

ACW

[airmail]

Guys

Thanks very much for the responses so far. My comments are:

Treble one - yes it is a cracking museum and I must make sure that it isn't another 10 years before I go back there!

air pig - I didn't (did do a search on Vulcan and wake vortices but nothing came up) will look now thanks for the steer

ACW418 - the video showed the climb out as per your post! However, I thought that wake turbulence came into effect as soon as a plane takes off (when the wings actually 'take the weight'), am I wrong in this?

Thanks

airmail

[ACW418]

I don't know how to answer you on this. It didn't seem to be a problem in stream formation take offs so I guess it is a tried and tested method. In the case of the Vulcan the wing loading is quite low so any wing tip vortices will be small. The exhaust plume disipates with gravity and cross winds. Also the controllability of military aircraft is of a different order to commercial aircraft so issues like turbulence are probably better dealt with. I was once tipped upside down at about 50 feet in a Vampire T11 because we got too close to the aircraft in front on approach - my instructor was flying and we were number nine in a nine ship formation. Much opposite rudder and control column and gentle movement of the throttle to full power got us in erect flight and an embarrassing overshoot.

Hope some of this helps.

ACW

[chiglet]

BoB Day, RAF Finningley, 1967.... FOUR Vulcans on the Runway... last one must have been IMC. The noise was Fabtastic :D

[ninja-lewis]

"A Vulcan Scramble was no different than a stream take off for a formation. Typically the first aircraft goes high right on climb out, the next low left, the next low right and so on. The sequence is covered at the formation briefing so there are (or should be) no cock ups.Very good fun though.

ACW "

Demonstrated in the film A Gathering of Eagles as two actors stand next to the runway while 5 SAC B-52G bombers make Minimal Interval Take Offs.

Boeing B-52G Stratofortress Minimum Interval Take Off (MITO) - YouTube

[Old-Duffer]

airmail,

WHICH RAF Museum are you referring to?

The one at Cosford - with its Cold War Exhibition and a Vulcan perched as if on the end of a flight deck - or the 'original' at Hendon?

I was at a seminar at the latter yesterday and both locations always give me a buzz. Both have a distinct character and it's not a case of doing one or the other; you need to do both.

Old Duffer

PS Listened to Captain Eric 'Winkle' Brown talk about flying the early jets yesterday. Absolutely enthralled by his talk and the clarity of his recollections. I hope the good Lord lets me be that switched on, if the grim reaper spares me until 92!

[taxydual]

The Vulcan Scramble.

Years ago I was a Runway Controller sat in the Leeming Caravan. 6 Vulcans dispersed in.

Come the Scramble. All 6 rolling. The ground shook, the Caravan shook, the seat shook, I shook. And promptly 'shook' my breakfast all over the desk.

Messy? Yes, but something I'll never forget.

[Pontius Navigator]

While there may have been specific briefings for displays so exercises it was simple SOP. Intervals were in the order of 15-30 seconds.

A 4-aircraft scramble was one thing but a dispersal was something else again with the first aircraft off in 15 minutes (usually less) and the rest taxying from all the dispersals. At Waddo one year, I can't remember the exact numbers but they used both runways, from the order being given to the last off was just 31 minutes and some 16 Vulcan and a Hastings got airborne from both runways. The Hastings just happened to be on the taxiway and the only clear place for him to get out of the way was the runway.

At Akrotiri, no dispersals, so a main base scramble about 12 arcraft and all off inside 20 minutes.

Finally, the high-low sequence didn't always work if all the engines didn't start!

And a postscript, at Brawdy, on Dick Kharegat cleared the runway departing at low level through the hangars. One way of avoiding wake turbulence.

[Yellow Sun]

Wake turbulence never seemed much of an issue back then, maybe it hadn't been "invented"! It was a bit dark and bumpy if you were No 4 off the ORP but that was about it. The only procedure that I was always a bit dubious about was the abandon takeoff during a scramble. IIRC the SOP was to close the throttles and do nothing else until the 3000' to go marker when you streamed and commenced braking. I saw one at Finningley, not a lot of clearance from the following aircraft.

The only problem I recall on a demo scramble was when the preceding aircraft went on 3 having had a failed start. It was a pity that he didn't find the time to tell us as we caught him up rather quickly and ended up doing what could only be described as a pairs takeoff.

Happy days

YS

[SAMXXV]

Just as an aside, & for hilarity, as a young Acting Pilot Officer (my new Sqn Cdr told me that he had NEVER come across an APO!) being paid less than the SAC Sqn Clerk, at RAF Wildenrath in 1982, I lived in the "Animal House" block outside the Wildenrath Officer's Mess.

I was a new "Engagement Contoller" on XXV Sqn Bloodhound SAM's. I was something of a rarity, being a lowly paid APO, yet driving a 6 week old Capri 2.8 (another story). my immediate room mates were "pongoe's" from a Sigs Regt. The day I arrived they took me to the mess & got me severely drunk on Grolsch. My best mate on XXV was the ever grinning bearded walnut coloured Flt Lt Harry Lewis - an ex AEO on Vulcans. Many of you will know him & I'd very much like to know if he's still alive.. Harry spent all summer lying naked under the bushes directly in front of the mess. He delighted in leaping out of the bushes with just a modesty towel. He existed on a daily bowl of soup & a bread roll. When he was off shift for 4 days he would drive in his tiny Suzuki van to the Dordogne to ingratiate himself with the local French Mayor in Creyssac, where he bought a barn complex in 1993 to convert to "Gites".

Then, in 1982 a young (25!) Vulcan pilot was posted in as OC Harrier Sim & put into the next door room. Happy Days! We used to get pissed then (bearing in mind that for some obtuse reason, the Harriers were at Gutersloh but their sim was at Wildenrath) we'd all troop down & fly the Harrier (I could never vertically land it..) & try to fly the camera through the "cotton wool smoke".

I've met many fantastic characters over the years, but none will beat the "Bear" - flying F4's at 54 years old from Wildenrath, nor a certain Pablo Mason GR4 pilot who caused me inordinate grief over 2 years in Operations at Laarbruch with constant "Flycatcher" transgressions, & sadly who's continude ignorance of the rules caused him to become a commercial ATP then something else when he was sacked. Whenever we had a low flying complaint anywhere in RAFG we looked at the flying programme for PM. Usually it was he.... Sadly we need more like him.

I was lucky to have one of the last Victor tanker flights from Marham. Only because the crews were lovely characters & had no axe to grind. I had to go into the Victor simulator & be "ejected" out of the 5th seat down a chute. I nearly broke my neck. The flight was a revelation. I have no idea how either Vulcan nor Victor pilots could see the runway. The screen was tiny & I take my hat off to them. It was worse than flying the BBMF Chipmunk - which I have done thanks to the gentle Mike Chatterton - the old BBMF Lancaster pilot. Sorry I hurt you Mike with an absurdly tight loop over Lincoln Cathedral :ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

I have seen Vulcan scrambles, both live and on film and agree they were very impressive. I came to Victors after they had ceased operating in the bomber role, but no doubt in their day both Valiants and Victors also took part in similar scrambles. Does anyone know if there is any film of one of these on the internet, and if so could they post a link?

The nearest we came to this on tankers was when two aircraft did what was called a snake-climb, taking off IIRC at 30 second intervals. I don't recall there ever being any problem with wake turbulence, but you would need to ask someone like Pontifex or Art Field about this as they were both in the LHS for many of these.

Btw someone should've told Rock Hudson and Rod Taylor not to wear their caps out there near the runway, but maybe they thought they looked more like steely-eyed aviators with the hats on :rolleyes:

[ZH875]

Btw someone should've told Rock Hudson and Rod Taylor not to wear their caps out there near the runway, but maybe they thought they looked more like steely-eyed aviators with the hats on :rolleyes:


No difference to most RAF pilots, most of the aircraft I worked on have had aircrew turn up on the pans with hats on, even if the passed in front or behind aircraft with jet engines running.

Best laugh was at Wyton, where I worked on the far side of the airfield in a building surrounded by portakabins, a bunch of us walking from the car park (dispersal pan on the far side of the peri track) across to the building, was bollocked by Flt Lt T** F**** for not wearing our berets, meanwhile a taxiing A10 blew his hat off and he was last seen running down the peri track chasing his hat. :mad:

[Old-Duffer]

Me thinks we need a new Thread, specifically to discuss one of the people mentioned in Post 13. But I don't believe I wrote that.

[goudie]

But I don't believe I wrote that.

OD
Re post 13. I don't believe what I read! Or something, in similar vein, on another thread, for that matter!

[Wander00]

Remember going to the Hendon Museum with youngest son (now 23 so must be 15 odd years ago) and disputing occupation of the "sit in it" JP cockpit as it was an airframe I had flown in training. Strangely my half-Danish grandson, now 5, wants pictures for his wall of "all the planes Grandad has flown". Nice really.

[NutLoose]

Old Duffer :-
WHICH RAF Museum are you referring to?


They are easy to remember, Hendon is the one you need a torch to see anything.......

If you haven't been before, give Cosford a go as well Airmail, I find it a better museum as they have discovered the electric light bulb there.....
along with some superbly staged aircraft to see. I felt old going round it and seeing some of the aircraft I was lucky to be involved on the running party for a sound recording being produced many years ago........ the ME410, FW190 and Tony were amongst them.......:rolleyes:

[Art Field]

Tankertrashnav.

Yes, did a fair number of snake climbs, not always waiting 30 seconds in VMC or 45 seconds if IMC. Unless the wind was straight down the runway the turbulence would be blown away sufficiently for the number 2 to avoid the worst of it. You could often see the jetwash in the climb but hitting it only gave you a sharp shake. As somebody said, great sport.

[Waddo Plumber]

I remember a survival scramble at Waddo at the end of an exercise one beautiful summer afternoon in about 1978 when (I think) 16 Vulcans did a stream take off, the first 4 from the ORP. I wish I'd been able to film the ladder of Vulcans going up and out into the blue (and you could see them all as they were a lot less smoky than the B52s!)

[airmail]

All

First of all, thanks for all the replies and the stories (and I agree it looks like a separate thread may be required for those!!)

Old duffer - it was Hendon that we were at, if you were around in the afternoon then you probably saw my kids running around although they spent a lot of time either in the JP cockpit or the R22 when they realised that I've flown both in the past (although not those specific airframes).

NutLoose - before yesterday I would have agreed with you about the lack of electricity at Hendon. I have to say that I remember it being very badly lit but I was pleasantly surprised as they seem to have improved it (and I don't just mean the new hall). I've never been to Cosford although I used to spend a lot of my working time in Birmingham and Telford so drove past it an awful lot. Really wish that I had popped in there for a couple of hours now.

As a side note, I was talking to my youngest this afternoon (she is 3) and she desperately wants to go back. Do the RAF pay commission for recruitment!!

Cheers

airmail

[Old-Duffer]

airmail,

The RAF Museum don't pay commission but then you didn't pay to get in (apart from the parking fee).

Do try to get to Cosford, the 'flavour' is rather different with the Cold War exhibition, many more external exhibits and - depending on the day of the week - aircraft buzzing around. You should enquire when the Sir Michael Beetham Conservation Centre is open (it's not Sir M they're conserving by the way!) and you will be able to see the restoration programmes up close and personal.

There are also many other local attractions such as the Telford Gorge and the Black Country Living Museum - I sense a weekend away coming on!!

Old Duffer

[The Oberon]

Not a scramble as such, but anyone present at Wideawake for the first Blackbuck launch could not fail to have been impressed. The "other" sqn. were on shift, but certain members of "our" sqn. were called in for extra "see off snag" cover. Two Vulcans followed by 11 Victors at about 1 min. intervals. Middle of the night, all the noise you wanted and clouds of dust and ash blasting about, quite superb.

[ZH875]

The noise was awesome, but went quiet after each Victor went past the large lump of rock called a hill (name I forget), but not when the Vulcans did.

IIRC it was a Vulcan lead off (XM598), then some Victors, then a Vulcan (XM607) then the rest of the Victors.

[sisemen]

Waddo one year, I can't remember the exact numbers but they used both runways

??????...................................

[Busta]

Display scrambles were great fun; when ordered off, mass rapid start was used, then, when leaving the ORP we were encouraged to keep dabbing the brakes thus giving the impression of " straining at the leash".

Line up was L-R-L echelon into wind, No1 brakes off when no4 was exiting the ORP. During the take off roll the AEO would transmit "60 Knots", triggering next aircraft brake release.

On rotate Hi Lo Hi was used to minimise jet wash effect.

It was particularly important after rapid start that the the throttles were momentarily completely closed to shut off the dipping valve and prevent overfuelling, which could lead to flame out! I do remember rapidly closing on the one in front watching flames in the jet pipe as he relit 2 engines on the runway!

Nothing matters very much, most things don't matter at all.

[Yellow Sun]

It is worth putting practice scrambles into context. Whilst the general public was usually only aware of them through air displays they were a routine feature of V-force training. The monthly group exercise would involve 3 to 5 waves of 4 aircraft being scrambled in succession from each 1 Gp station. In addition a dispersal airfield was usually exercised on a monthly basis with the aircraft being scrambled from it the day after flying in. Looking back I would estimate that the average crew probably participated in a practice scramble on at least 2 months out of 3, quite possibly more frequently.

Scrambles were not a party piece rolled out for air displays and visiting dignitaries, they were a central element of what we did.

YS

[BEagle]

Unfortunately the fun of 'mass rapid' had gone by the time I arrived on the V-force. The best we could hope for was a ripple rapid, or a single rapid / sim. crossfeed start. I never flew a 300-ser jet, so didn't have the fuel dipping valve precaution to worry about - it wasn't such a problem on 200-ser engines, if I recall correctly.

Yes, Group exercises were pretty common and taken quite seriously. One fine day we were on exercise at Sunny Scampton, but the wind was just out of peacetime limits for RW23, so we were all brought to RS02 and taxyed around to RW05 - a string of about 20 bombers all champing at the bit eager to get away from the usual niff-naff and triv of station exercises. Then came the "Attention attention, this is the Bomber Controller" bit as we were given the scramble order. Of course the scramble order was accompanied by a multi cipher authentication code, for example 'Delta Seven Foxtrot'. For 2-man principle reasons, part of the code was kept at the front with the pilots, the other part with the rear crew - you looked at the various unique options until you found the correct line and checked with the back who should have the same line. "Delta blank Foxtrot = line 3!" "Blank Seven Blank = line 3, I agree!" or somesuch. All OK, off you went.....:rolleyes:

However, although the codes were delivered in an envelope marked 'Exercise Top Secret' or similar, most co-pilots and AEOs would have the code sheet all ready in their kneepads ready for a quick check.

On this particular day, as we heard the code, 19 of us released the brakes and began to move, then suddenly stopped - because the lead aircraft was still stationary on the runway. "WTF are they faffing with?", about 95 aircrew wondered - then the lead jet finally began to roll.

The mystery was later resolved when the 'vault' officers took the codes back off us following Endex. Amongst the offerings was rather a soggy envelope which looked as though it had been attacked by a police dog. It seems the lead co-piglet had followed orders and only opened the envelope when the authentication was transmitted - or rather, he'd tried to open it. A stout brown envelope containing codes sealed in heavy duty polythene is quite a challenge to someone wearing flying gloves - so eventually he dropped his oxy mask and bit the thing open, then had to put his mask back on to check with the rear crew! His captain had watched the pantomime in astonishment, but finally the codes were agreed and off they went!

In the mid-to-late '70s, the V-force really was a great life!

[Waddo Plumber]

A certain well known captain at in the mid 70s at Waddo on being given a non-exercise code and OC Ops rapidly appearing on the airfield?

[BEagle]

In his underwear, was he not? In case he was some Spetsnaz stooge, or so the captain said!

[Fareastdriver]

Do try to get to Cosford,

Before you go make sure that the WHOLE museum is open. I went there one day having travelled down from Aberdeen and found that the Battle of Britain Exhibition was closed.

It had been rented out for a corporate lunch.

[Yellow Sun]

A certain well known captain at in the mid 70s at Waddo on being given a non-exercise code and OC Ops rapidly appearing on the airfield?

I don't know about that incident but there was an entertaining little one somewhat earlier. After QRA was stood down we retained a standby duty that was tasked to quickly generate a QRA force if required. One Sunday afternoon this contingency was exercised, the crews were called in and set about combat checking the allocated aircraft. All went well until an over enthusiastic MT driver rolled a crew coach with one of the crews on board. Fortunately no one was seriously injured and the crew continued to complete the combat checks. However a subsequent stock take with the MO resulted in the captain and plotter being declared hor's de combat. The Station Commander who had turned up to watch proceedings; clad in sports jacket and slacks; now stepped into the breach. He collared the wing NBS officer; a plotter; and appointed himself replacement captain allowing the station to signal 1 Gp that the required aircraft and crews were now available at RS15. this was followed in short order by the Bomber Box announcing a change of RS to 05. In response the crews proceeded to their aircraft lead by the newly (re)constituted crew in the Station Commander's Austin Maxi complete with flag!

So far so good, all crews checked in at 05, a "start engines" was declared, accomplished and we all waited. After a short time air traffic broadcast a reversion message and this is where things started to go wrong because it did not correspond with the contents of the sealed envelopes and the crews remained resolutely in their aircraft.

In the Station Commander's aircraft the wing NBS officer appeared on the ladder between the pilots' seats:

"I know what's gone wrong" he said, "They've broadcast the exercise termination code, the ops officer should then have been issued with the reversion code for air traffic to transmit"

"So why haven't they done that?" says Station Commander

"Because they can't get into the vault to get it" says NBS officer dangling the key he had on a lanyard round his neck!

Happy days!

YS;)

[BEagle]

Here's Mike Rondot's painting of a Vulcan scramble:

...http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z409/5dilly/VulcanScramble.jpg


You can almost feel the noise!

[Old-Duffer]

When I was merely 'stepping out' with the current Mrs O-D, she was based at Finningley and invited me to a BofB display.

I was nicely settled in the staff marque and the 'Bomber Controller' was broadcasting his various messages over the loudspeaker system, building up to the scramble itself.

When this came, the din and smoke from 16 engines doing a simultaneous start (played havoc with the engine life BTW) was never to be forgotten. Out the beasts rolled and away they went. At the end of it an ex-Vulcan nav was jumping up and down shouting; 'It's a record, it's a record' and waving a stopwatch about. Can't remember the time but one minute 13 seconds seems to ring a bell - but someone out there will put me straight.

Anyway, after about 34 years, thank you Sqn Ldr Tony B....... and all those behind you for a memorable display!

Old Duffer

[alisoncc]

When this came, the din and smoke from 16 engines doing a simultaneous start (played havoc with the engine life BTW) was never to be forgotten.

You want to try standing underneath the buggers when they do that. This was before ear defenders became standard issue as well. Did get some funny little ear plugs, which I still have. I think I should have taken them out by now.:ok:

[cornish-stormrider]

Beags - thats for putting up the painting....

To coin a cheesy spam saying - BRING THE RAIN!

Although more appropriate would be to bring the noise, in the words of the Beastie Boys.
That is an awesome sight. I remember being Very late home from an Air display at RAF St Mawgan - all due to the Vulcan, IIRC it was the display farewell after Black Buck shennanigans down south.

apologies to all those who were held up by the bus being late coz of me. But I could not miss that howl.

[green granite]

But I could not miss that howl.

Especially the night that the controller scrambled the 4 Vulcans from Bedford at 0300, the locals were less than impressed (the siren woke me up so I knew what was comming)