Armed Forces Pension Increase April 2012

[RAFEngO74to09]

The September 2011 CPI rate, which determines the Armed Forces Pension increase payable from April 2012, has just been announced as 5.2%. The pension increase should therefore be 5% (capped).

[The Old Fat One]

Happy to be corrected, but does this not mean that for this year it would have made no difference whether CPI or RPI was used??

[RAFEngO74to09]

The Old Fat One.

Correct - RPI was 5.6% but would also have been capped at 5% hence no difference between using RPI or CPI this time.

[Grabbers]

I'm not a gambling man but I wouldn't put 10 bob on the govt honouring that.

[F.O.D]

Where did the "capped at 5%" rule for the inflation increase in pensions come from that was mentioned by a previous poster?

[Jambo Jet]

It will be interesting what size of pay rise they have planned for next year, or is it another pay freeze to encourage more PVR?

[Biggus]

Jambo Jet,

It was stated from the outset that it was a 2 year pay freeze.

The next scheduled pay rise for public employees is Apr 2013.

It will be interesting to see what the AFPRB recommend for the Apr 2013 pay rise. While they won't be able to play 'catch up' as such, it will be interesting to see if they recommend something like 7-8%, or whether they will be hamstrung by some sort of government/MOD target of 2-3%.

If the latter is the case, one is forced to ask the question, what is the point of having an AFPRB...? :{

[Type1106]

RAFENG - where did you get the 'capped at 5%' from? First I've heard of it.

1106

[RAFEngO74to09]

FOD + Type 1106

Sorry but I can't find a reference now but I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere when I first retired. There are numerous references on line to public sector pension increases being capped to 5%. Obviously I'd be happy to be proved incorrect.

[Tocsin]

Several pension schemes cap at either 5% or even 2.5% - however these are mitigated by carrying forward the cap. So if you get say 4.6% in one year, the carry forward will allow up to 5.4% the next...

Need to look at the regulations (Trust Deed and Rules for company pensions) to see exactly what applies:

1. Is there a cap at all?

2. If so, is there a carry forward used?

(Not a pensions expert, so please excuse the terminology!)

[Pontius Navigator]

I found this link:

Annual Increases - The Pensions Advisory Service (TPAS) (http://www.pensionsadvisoryservice.org.uk/workplace-pension-schemes/final-salary-schemes/annual-increases)

Increases are sometimes limited to a maximum amount. Capping an increase in this way is known as Limited Price Indexation (LPI). This is common in private sector schemes, whereas increases in public sector schemes tend not to be capped.

I also found this link:

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/73C97FDF-BCDA-4B3F-A686-CA8533FD52BC/0/afps75_mmp106_your_pension_scheme_explained.pdf

But the file is scrambled.

[The Old Fat One]

Time for AL R to put us straight.

[LFFC]

Apparently, the Armed Forces pension schemes are increased in accordance with the Pension Increases Act (as amended). That's how they managed to get around the RPI/CPI change.

It would be interesting to see if the Act has been amended to cap increases at 5%; if it has, it would certainly be news to me!

[newt]

I seem to remember that when I retired in 1988, my pension at 55 would be fully index linked! Has that changed or are we talking about the pension scheme brought in after I retired?:ok:

[camelspyyder]

Pardon me for being dull, but how does a 2 year pay freeze announced in 2010 mean no pay rise until 2013??:(

[Al R]

Sorry - when I referred to 'this' seeing us through to 2013, I was referring to any decision made which will relate to any pension accrual increases which are introduced in Apr 2012.

[Chainkicker]

CS- Pardon me for being dull, but how does a 2 year pay freeze announced in 2010 mean no pay rise until 2013??

Possibly depends on when in 2010 it was announced?

Could mean no rise in 2011 or 2012 if it was announced after April 2010?

[Biggus]

The present government only came into power in May 2010.....






2 year pay freeze = 2 years of no pay rises. No annual rise in Apr 11 or Apr 12!

[The Old Fat One]

Three separate questions have arisen from this thread...

1. When will the armed forces/public sector next get a pay rise (and how much)? Unawswerable...I don't know and nor does anybody else. I am a gambling man and will put 50p on Apr 2013 and 1 X CPI.

2. How much will armed forces pensions go up in April 2012...5.2% or 5%. From a financial viewpoint I couldn't give a monkeys...but I do hope AL R finds out because I do enjoy his posts (correct..I have no life:{).

3. Will the government do something (anything) to short change public sector pensioners out of these index-linked rises. Very, very unlikely, for all sorts of reasons which are too boring to relate...but not impossible if we continue to get sucked into a financial abyss.

OK...that was four questions

[Dengue_Dude]

OK...that was four questions

Err . . . What did the Romans ever do for us . . .?

[Biggus]

....law and order, roads (the roads go without saying!), sanitation, the aquaduct..... :ok::ok:

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

and the wine, don't forget the wine!

CWD

[brakedwell]

What about Pizza or was that Napoleons?

[crpierson21]

Yes it has increased by 5.2%
However from a person who has a relative who was a sqd Ldr on departure of RAF on salary of £55K so 2/3rds pension before increase was £701 per week and now £741 per week which he is fully intitled too and earned over the years, it makes me feel a liitle ill to think people are actually complaining when this is the sort of money they can achieve! I understand for the lower ranks, but if any of these former officers on such salarys are complaining then they need to live in the real world! My other relative who also has worked hard all her life has retired on a pension from the NHS of only £360 A MONTH, yes a MONTH!
So get real you officer types!

[m0nkfish]

Not quite sure the figures are correct as a Squadron Leader who retires at 55 on the highest pay level would only be entitled to £27742 a year which works out at £533.5 a week.

[Biggus]

Never let the truth get in the way of a good rant.....


Interesting choice for a first post, welcome to pprune

[BEagle]

Not quite sure the figures are correct as a Squadron Leader who retires at 55 on the highest pay level would only be entitled to £27742 a year which works out at £533.5 a week.

Well, this ex-Sqn Ldr who retired at 53 now has a pension of £28272 a year (before tax), which works out at £542.21 for a (365/7) week.

[Lightning Mate]

Careful Beags.

Now you have really *****d off crpierson21.

I had better not discuss my three pensions then. :E

[Pontius Navigator]

Just got my pension figures and the bottom line shows an increase of 4.11%. However is also gives the GMP amount increased from 6 Apr 12, that figure less GMP nnnn increased by 5.2% and then a new rate from 9 Apr 12 that is larger than the GMP figure it started with.

The amount actually being paid is a few thousands more than the New Rate shown.

Confused!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Careful Beags.

I had better not discuss my three pensions then. :E

Better not mention mine either, and I am only a baldrick :p:p:p

[Lightning Mate]

Sorry, I am a little hard of hearing.

Did you say bald dick?

[Al R]

Well, this ex-Sqn Ldr who retired at 53 now has a pension of £28272 a year (before tax), which works out at £542.21 for a (365/7) week.


Beags, it ain't what you make.. its what you keep! ;)

[jindabyne]

Or what you spend -----

[P6 Driver]

What rise is being discussed here?

I received my "Advice of Payment" yesterday and it confirms that I will receive during 2012/3, the exact same amount I received in the year 2011/2.
:mad:

[BEagle]

Those in receipt of a pension following PVR do not receive any increases until they've passed their original NRD.

My pension was £1781.79 gross per month from the month after my PVR exit date until the month before my 55th birthday over 2 years later.

Did you PVR?

[Tiger_mate]

In about 36 mins time, my pension is optimised by date. That they are going up at all is good news and most welcome. Now got to consider whether to stick the next two years before retirement date or cut and run when I have lost sight of the good bits of military life. For the guys and girls who are less fortunate in retirement either by retirement age or pension value one has to say that we all choose the direction we take in life and whilst admiting that good fortune or luck can play its part so does embracing a career that provides long term security and there is little point in having a chip on your shoulder if you have chosen a lessor path to travel.

[6Z3]

when I have lost sight of the good bits

That's the time to tighten belt or lose a bit of weight, Tiger!

[Tiger_mate]

Your a funny guy...
I like you...
I kill you last!

[Al R]

Yes it has increased by 5.2%. However from a person who has a
relative who was a sqd Ldr on departure of RAF on salary of £55K so 2/3rds pension before increase was £701 per week and now £741 per week which he is fully intitled too and earned over the years, it makes me feel a liitle ill to think people are actually complaining when this is the sort of money they can achieve! I understand for the lower ranks, but if any of these former officers on such salarys are complaining then they need to live in the real world! My other relative who also has worked hard all her life has retired on a pension from the NHS of only £360 A MONTH, yes a MONTH!
So get real you officer types!

CR,

Welcome. I'm not an 'officer type', so I won't make some class based philosophical statement other than a Sqn Ldr who commits to a long term career that demands and offers much in equal amounts is probably deserving of more recognition in retirement than someone who was in the ranks for 6 years and who may have done less.

I have a few clients who have started pensions for their kids (as did I for mine, a few years back). You don't have to set aside a lot now in order to make a difference in the future and someone in civvy street starting off a personal pension 25-30 years ago would have no reason not to be enjoying a similar retirement to the Sqn Ldr you mention, if they had planned ahead or focused on it properly. I accept that the NHS might pay less and that its harder to save more, but did your relative do that?

The officers of the future will have a more punitive retirement than the SNCOs of today (based on Future AFPS). Despite the incredible demands that are constantly placed on them these days (and far more than in my day), servicemen and women are discovering that their retirement could be a lot less rosy than it was - I hope that unfairness is of some consolation to you..? Finally, lets put all talk of retirement in context.

Inheritance Tax (IHT) exemption for veterans deceased following certain injuries - Echelon Wealthcare (http://www.echelonwealthcare.co.uk/inheritance-tax-iht-exemption-for-veterans-deceased-following-certain-injuries/)

[P6 Driver]

BEagle wrote;


Those in receipt of a pension following PVR do not receive any increases
until they've passed their original NRD.

My pension was £1781.79 gross
per month from the month after my PVR exit date until the month before my 55th
birthday over 2 years later.

Did you PVR?


No PVR here!
I completed my 22 about 14 years ago. When I received my notice a few days ago, I assumed it was on a freeze until reading this thread!

[Pontius Navigator]

Well my increase was 4.2% but then an element was not increased as the increase in that element was paid on the GMP element of my state pension.

[Chainkicker]

No PVR here!
I completed my 22 about 14 years ago. When I received my notice a few days ago, I assumed it was on a freeze until reading this thread!

P6, I take it you commuted your pension and have yet to reach 55? Thats when you start getting the rises.

If, however, you have reached 55, ring paymaster and ask whats up as you should be getting annual increases.

[Not Long Here]

Well my increase was 4.2% but then an element was not increased as the increase in that element was paid on the GMP element of my state pension.

For those in the Commonwealth countries, I have asked about the index-linking on reaching the normal age for receipt of the state pension.

As far as I can see our service pensions index-linked increases should not be abated by GMP post age 65 as our state pensions are frozen as soon as we claim them.

If anyone has already asked that questions a precedent would be nice to know about, otherwise I will let you know what they come back with.

[ExRAFAC]

I've just received my Advice of Payment from Xafinity. The 5.2% headline rate has turned into 3.47% for me, because, apparently, I retired after 27 April 2011. So... I lose nearly £2000 every year to the treasury because I foolishly got divorced. And now I lose another 1.73% each and every year because of another clever bit of manipulative legislation that is, yet again, only beneficial to the treasury. I served my country faithfully for more than 40 years and I seem to continually be kicked in the teeth by an ungrateful set of legislation! Hmmm..perhaps I'm being naive when I believe the hype from our Lords and masters when they say they have our best interests at heart. Wish I'd worked for Barclays now, at least with them the possibility of a decent pay packet isn't dependant upon performance (or loyalty) there!

[Al R]

Its all relative and there is more to retirement life than AFPS.

The 15 year Gilt yield rate has risen 15% since December, meaning Drawdown or Annuity rates have gone back up. That only helps those with a personal pension mind - sorry. In real world terms (although it now costs more for the g'ment to borrow), a saver* holding back £1000 from a 200k personal pension fund from December and acting now instead of last year will reap an extra £900 a year.

If you're on the verge of annuitising a personal pension or thinking about drawdown, consider dripfeeding the drawdown or only taking an annuity on a portion of it. If you're already in drawdown and move new money into it, the revised annuity rates should apply to the entire amount. Check your scheme rules. Given the Iberian peninsula uncertainty right now, will that situation last? Mmmm.

* Working on the assumption of a 65 year old bloke and various other odds and ends.

[Army Mover]

Received my advice today; 5.2% increase - thank you very much :ok:

[P6 Driver]

Quote:




No PVR here!

I completed my 22 about 14 years ago. When I received my notice a few days ago,
I assumed it was on a freeze until reading this
thread!
P6, I take it you commuted your pension and have yet to reach 55? Thats when
you start getting the rises.

If, however, you have reached 55, ring
paymaster and ask whats up as you should be getting annual increases.


Close - I didn't commute and am a few months short of 55.

[Voxpop]

There is a leaflet on GMP and National Insurance Modification on the Forces Pension Society website - Forces Pension Society - Fighting for the Forces and their Families (http://www.forpen.co.uk)

[Voxpop]

This exchange has been going on on the ARRSE forum too. I posted the following to give people an idea of how pension increases are staged in the first year:


"I am afraid this site will not let me cut and paste the table but, for last year, with a CPI of 3.1%, the table looked like this:

Leaving date CPI % uplift
1-25 Apr 3.1
26 Apr-25 May 2.84
26 Apr-25 Jun 2.58
26 Jun-25 Jul 2.33
26 Jul-25 Aug 2.07
26 Aug-25 Sep 1.81
26 Sep-25 Oct 1.55
26 Oct-25 Nov 1.29
26 Nov-25 Dec 1.03
26 Dec-25 Jan .78
26 Jan-25 Feb .58
26 Feb-25 Mar .26
26 Mar-31 Mar NIL

It demonstrates what I was saying and if I can get hold of this year's list I will post it on this site."

Most people get no choice about when their last day of service is but, for the few who do, early in the tax year is best.

[Not Long Here]

Voxpop,

Its probably me but I can't find the leaflets. Any chance of a link to the items rather than your link to the website?

[Voxpop]

See your PM.

I have just been on to our site and confirm that it is in the Members' Area rather than the public area. Sorry for the bum steer.

[Sloppy Link]

???? Do I need to speak to someone? I am due out 23 Jun 14, from those numbers I seem to proff but I don't know what I've proffed! Help!!

SL (pension numpty)

[Tiger_mate]

SL (pension numpty)

You and me both; you would think that the resettlement process would include a one to one individual specific pensions brief from someone in the know.

[Al R]

TM,

It might be cold comfort now, but the Forces Pension Society is well worth a few quid of anyone's money each year (no, I'm not on a retainer!).

FPS does get involved with resettlement I think, and offers a generic presentation although F-AFPS is going to see a higher level of involvement with 'stakeholders' about what AFPS will bring for members in the future at a far earlier stage of the careeer cycle. At present, there is still quite a high degree of disengagement because thats the nature of the beast - at 20 in the military, who thinks about retirement? I didn't!

Individuals with a relatively short earnings time-span and in such an all consuming military career need to focus all of their energy on excelling at it, because they want to stay alive. The general day to day management of finances becomes a secondary concern and when this happens, in my experience, servicemen sometimes find themselves in situations that could affect opportunities to either save or secure a post career retirement.

[Sloppy Link]

FPS do give a generic presentation and I am a member of said Society and nearer the time will be in touch.....that aside Al R, please could you answer the original question (this is with no sarcasm as I note your posts are always correct and you genuinely aim to help). Thank you.

SL

[Biggus]

SL,

It's not rocket science (actually rocket science is pretty straightforward!)....

Let's take an analogy you will be familiar with. In your last year in the military you won't get the full leave entitlement (38 days), but a proportion thereof. In your case, leaving in Jun 2014, for the period Apr-Jun 2014 you will probably get (without knowing exactly when in June you will leave) about 30% of this figure, some 12 days annual leave.

Your FIRST, and only your FIRST, pension increase works this way. In Apr 15 you will receive a proportion of the annual rise in pension, directly related to the proportion of the year you have received that pension. So, in your case, in your FIRST year, i.e Apr 15, you will receive about 83% of the total pension increase (which will be the CPI figure for Sep 14). So if the CPI is say 2.5%, you will recieve about a 2.1% increase. In all subsequent years you will receive the FULL increase, i.e. the Sept CPI figure for the preceeding year.

I hope that makes sense - it does to me, but then I wrote it!! :ok:





Yes - leave just after Apr and you get a bigger rise in your pension the following year, but for every month you stay in past Apr you are probably earning at least twice what you would draw in terms of your pension if you were out......

[Al R]

Sloppy,

No snags; no sarcasm detected and I'm sure none would have been intended.

I wasn't too sure what your original question was, sorry. Biggus may well have answered your query - if I can help you at all, and not wanting to engage in guerilla marketing, pm me or e-mail me at work - you'll see my contact details on the bottom half of page 29 of the latest issue of Pennant (which may have thumped onto your doormat today!).

[Sloppy Link]

Biggus,
TQ, I understand now......and, strangely, I understand rocket science also.

Al R,
Gotcha if your logo involves a Typhoon (ugh!)

:) SL

[Not Long Here]

Word from Xaffinity in the mail is that, in countries where the State Pension is frozen, Xaffinity don't make any GMP adjustments to the Service Pension so you get the full inflation increase.

[Voxpop]

For members of the Forces Pension Society, go on to our website and look at leaflet 01 which will explain all adjustments at State Pension Age. Forces Pension Society - Fighting for the Forces and their Families (http://www.forpen.co.uk)

[Al R]

IDS's plans in the Queen's Speech to allow 6 months paid paternity leave might set the cat amongst the pigeons, as will the £155 a week flat rate (from 2020) which will help those who have stayed at home to raise children. But if I was currently in my late 50's or already retired, I might be a bit annoyed at all those additional S2P contributions counting for nothing. AFPS is by default, a contracted out scheme and the member and the employer pay a lower rate of National Insurance contributions - wot, no refund? :(

For general info, the Queen also confirmed the intention to raise the state pension age from 66 to 67 between 2026 and 2028. Bugger.

[El_Presidente]

Count yourselves lucky you're not a police officer. Annual inflation pay freeze until Sep 13; previous annnual incremental pay rise (retention) frozen until Apr 14 - and then awarded only every 2 years; pension contributions increasing to 10.5%; and moving to career average from final salary - for all officers including those on the previous schemes. This makes the police pension sheme the most costly to contributors throughout the public sector. More than teachers, NHS staff, forces personnel firefighters etc...

Most police officers will have had no increase in annual pay for 4 years. This, when the private sector are seeing an average 3% rise this year. Cheers to Dave 'we're all in this together' Cameron.

My worry is, once Afghan is wound down and BFG is slimmed up, we're in for more savage cuts and breaches of the 'convenant'...stand by...

[Art of flight]

Police pension,

For the sake of balance and to put a myth to bed, police employers contribute 23% to that pension, and for the last 10 of the 30 years service, the employer doubles the contribution, effectively giving an officer 40 years worth of pension and gratuity for 30 years served.

I work amongst them and those in their last 10 years are pretty much only doing it for the pension at 50. Police staff pay 10.2 % contribution, the employer pays 13% and no gratuity and a retirement age of 65.

[El_Presidente]

Art, what myth are you putting to bed? I'm simply stating that police pay the highest contributions to their pension of all public sector employees; on a thread about RAF pensions, to which forces personnel do not contribute...a comparison, if you will, of how green some grass can be...

[rarelyathome]

El Presidente

After 33 years, I think I get less than 50% of salary having also had my pay awards abated each year as my contribution. What level of pension do Police Officers receive? I thought I had read somewhere it is 66%+

[Al R]

El Prez,

AFPS is generally considered to be non-contributory but in reality, military salaries are abated by the Armed Forces Review Body to the tune of 4-5% or so.

[Lima Juliet]

As usual, Al R, well said Sir. :D

In fact the Armed Forces Benefits Calculator is quick to crow about our pensions...

The Armed Forces Pension Scheme is a non-contributory pension scheme; this figure, therefore, provides you with an indication of the amount of money the MoD contributes annually on your behalf towards your pension. The value quoted is based on SCAPE rates, which are routinely valued by the Government Actuary’s Department. However, this figure is illustrative only, and does not represent the value accruing to your pension. SCAPE rates represent the amount the MOD contributes per person for the total cost of Armed Forces pensions, not the amount payable to individuals.

If you wish to calculate how much your annual pension might be worth in terms of income, you may wish to visit the Armed Forces Pension Calculator, or if you would like to gain an idea of what a pension might cost in the private sector, you may wish to visit the Consumer Financial Education Body (CFEB) Pension Calculator.

LJ

[El_Presidente]

Al-R, I know, I have one...and still felt well renumerated after I had a couple of years service under my belt.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not knocking anyone...I'm just saying understand what you're getting and do the maths before you start hopping over the fence.

The old police pension is based on 1⁄60th of your average pensionable pay for each year of pensionable service up to 20 years, and 2⁄60ths of your average pensionable pay for each year over 20 years, up to a maximum of 40⁄60ths. Officers will pay 12.75% for this now.

The newer scheme, NPPS, is based on 1/70th of your final pensionable pay for each year of pensionable service up to a maximum of 35/70ths. Contributions of 10.5% by employee.

[Al R]

:cool: - I got what you were saying.

On the plus side, at least they now care enough about you to allow annual fitness tests?!

[Al R]

Leon,

Someone might want to tell them that the Consumer Financial Education Body no longer exists!

[mlc]

Just for accuracy. Police pension will be rising to 14.2% of gross wage. Officers will now have to work till 60 (which will be fun fighting with 18 year old feral chavs). From 2015 the old pension scheme is being closed and a vastly inferior one put in it's place. Significantly more years,paying significantly more money for far, far less.

Surprisingly and despite what Cameron and the Daily Mail state, they do not retire at 23years old with a £500'000 payout.

I wish I'd stayed in the mob. I'd have completed my 22 years and be living very nicely thank you. As it is, my pay, terms of service, length of service have all been decimated by a Prime Minister who has every intention of privatising every aspect of the Police he can. That nice man Tom Winsor, who has recommended this privatisiation, just happens to be a partner in a law firm that advises G4S on bidding for.....privatised Police work.

Cameron wants to reduce Police numbers from 135'000 to 80'000. He treats his protection officers with complete contempt. I have voted Conservative at every election since I was 18. Never, ever again. In fact, I can't see anybody that doesn't have the aim of ensuring Politicians trough remains full at the expense of everyone else.

[Climebear]

The AFPRB's last review of the pension valuation was covered in their 36th Report 2007 (http://www.ome.uk.com/Document/Default.aspx?DocumentUid=360492BA-69DC-4768-9712-BBBADF806D1A)

We conclude that:

• With revisions to reflect changing circumstances, our methodology to determine the relative pension value and how we apply that value to civilian
comparator pay remain appropriate given that the Armed Forces have non-contributory pension schemes;

• The value should be 4 per cent; and

• The value will be deducted from the civilian pay comparisons from 1 April
2007, which will be part of the evidence for our 2008 Report.

This was a reduction from the previous (2001) valuation of 7%.

Final salary recomendations are: 'civilian pay comparator value' - 'pension value' (4%) + 'X-Factor' (14%)

[El_Presidente]

MLC, I hear you...

Cameron has similar intent with the armed forces also...hence why I cautioned about what the future holds post Afghanistan. I doubt Labour would cut so deep either the police or the armed forces; I'm no red banner man myself, but these ConDems are a right bunch of choppers...

As for the Daily Mail, if you read that .... erm .... publication .... the police are all baby killers too...

:suspect:

[Al R]

2 options. You count your blessings or you don't count your chickens.

DC and NEST raised as future for public sector pensions | News | Engaged Investor (http://www.engagedinvestor.co.uk/dc-and-nest-raised-as-future-for-public-sector-pensions/1465207.article)

What has struck me recently, is Danny Alexander's daft statement that these reforms will last for 25 years.

[Al R]

mlc

You probably won't have enjoyed listening to this one then..?

BBC News - 'Take share' of cuts, Theresa May tells police (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18091338)

Theresa May's address to the Police Federation conference comes as forces in England and Wales face budget cuts of 20% and are in line for some of the most radical reforms for 30 years. Officers need to "stop pretending" they were being "picked on", she added.

More balls than most of the Cabinet though!

[mlc]

May spoke utter garbage.

West Mids Police have currently put out an invitation to tender, inviting companies to bid for the following work.


— Assure service – manage performance, maintain professional standards, assure compliance, manage risk, provide legal services,
— Bring offenders to justice – investigate crimes, detain suspects, non-judicial disposal, develop cases, support prosecution,
— Deal with incidents – respond to incidents, manage scenes of incidents, investigate incidents, manage major incidents, support victims and witnesses,
— Lead service – supports the Leadership of the organisation to develop strategy, policy and plans, manage change, and manage partnerships,
— Manage public engagement – patrol neighbourhoods, manage public relations, manage customer relationships, report on performance, manage contact,
— Manage resources – manage suppliers, manage finance, manage people, manage ICT, manage fleet and livestock, manage equipment, manage facilities,
— Protect the public – manage high risk individuals, improve communities, protect vulnerable people, disrupt criminal networks, manage planned operations, protect vulnerable places, manage licensing, manage road safety,
— Support operational services – manage duty and tasking, manage forensics, provide specialist services, gather police information, manage property and evidence, manage intelligence.

If that's not privatisation, I don't know what is.

[Melchett01]

— Assure service – manage performance, maintain professional standards, assure compliance, manage risk, provide legal services,
— Bring offenders to justice – investigate crimes, detain suspects, non-judicial disposal, develop cases, support prosecution,
— Deal with incidents – respond to incidents, manage scenes of incidents, investigate incidents, manage major incidents, support victims and witnesses,
— Lead service – supports the Leadership of the organisation to develop strategy, policy and plans, manage change, and manage partnerships,
— Manage public engagement – patrol neighbourhoods, manage public relations, manage customer relationships, report on performance, manage contact,
— Manage resources – manage suppliers, manage finance, manage people, manage ICT, manage fleet and livestock, manage equipment, manage facilities,
— Protect the public – manage high risk individuals, improve communities, protect vulnerable people, disrupt criminal networks, manage planned operations, protect vulnerable places, manage licensing, manage road safety,
— Support operational services – manage duty and tasking, manage forensics, provide specialist services, gather police information, manage property and evidence, manage intelligence.


I'm not being funny now, and this is a genuine question ... but isn't that pretty much everything that the police should do? If you privatise all that, what exactly is left for the West Mids Police to do?

[mlc]

The only thing not mentioned is actually making the arrest, for which a small core of warranted officers will be needed. But who will they get to do it, when pay and pensions are being slashed and whole units disbanded.

The point to remember is that all of the above will need to be done for PROFIT. the unprofitable stuff will just be ignored.

So when Cameron and May say they are not intent on privatising the Police, THEY ARE LYING.

I wonder if the FAA need any more 40+ years old Lts. My uniform still fits!!

[El_Presidente]

It's frustrating at how the ConDems have stitched everything up ...

The first thing on their agenda was 5 Yr fixed term parliaments - so joe soap can't kick them out early. Then they pillage the Public Sector.

The irony is I genuinely believe their real mission (hidden) is to break the police service in order to make privitisation a given. They will hack away at terms and conditions, and pay and pensions, so many late service officers will take early retirement. Thats the old and bold gone. Then the middle men will get squeezed and will jump ship as soon as they can secure other employment. So the experinced boys and girls will be gone; the forces will suffer from a chronic lack of experience and resourcing levels will drop through the floor...

Sound familiar so far...?

Then anything not requiring a sworn constable will be privitised, leaving you with a hoarde of specials and PCSO's, and a small core of essential but highly in-experienced and autocratic police officers - perhaps as much as half the number we have now.

Hang on, carbon copy of what's happened to the Armed Forces...

:suspect:

[Biggus]

El_P,

Before pointing out any other holes in your argument (of which there are many - but I probably won't be bothered to address them as a bottle of red is calling...) I would ask on what basis "joe soap could kick them out early"?

To the best of my knowledge, prior to this change there were only two routes to a general election, neither of which was under the control of "joe soap".

1) The government loses a vote of no confidence, which subsequently results in a general election. This is likely to occur with minority governments, those with small majorities, or occasions when MPs within the government consider an issue so important that they rebel to bring the government down. In no way is this instigated by Joe Soap.

2) The government of the day elects to call a general election, anywhen within its 5 year term of office.

Point 2 allowed the government of the day to call an election at a time when their standing with the public was high, thus giving them the advantage in terms of being re-elected. Indeed, Gordon Brown was urged to call a general election not long after his term as PM had started, when his ratings, and his party, were high. However, as a non "risk taker" he elected to wait, with the subsequent result that saw his party lose..

While I'm not a strong advocate of the coalition government, I hardly see fixed terms for governments as a major issue. Every party now knows exactly when the next election will be, and can plan their strategy, funding, etc, accordingly. Going from a system slanted in favor of the sitting government to one fairer for all is hardly the mark of a devious administration.

As for cuts to the public sector, wake up and smell the roses, watch the headlines in the next few weeks as the situation in Greece unfolds, the Euro potentially collapses, unemployment in Spain reaches 25%, banks go under etc....

These are not normal times, or headlines we can ignore just because we aren't in the Euro. We are potentially in for 10 years of recession, perhaps even depression, and you want our government to continue spending as though nothing were happening....

Labour were planning on making cuts too, and were starting to admit it just before the election. Some people do realize the size of the issues involved, but then NIMBYish creeps in. "Yes, we need to make cuts, but not in police/military/NHS/Civil Service...(delete as required)" is their sort of approach!

[El_Presidente]

Biggus, you said many holes but only state two, of which both pertain to the point I made re-fixed term parliaments; the remainder being your point of view on the situation in Europe, and party politics.

To counter...

Fixed term parliaments, fixed at the maximum allowable of 5 years...DC wanted to scrap the ability of government to call elections when it was 'politically convenient' to do so. However, they have elected to fix their parliamentary term for the longest possible, I would guess in the hope that by the time the electorate vote once more, all the pain and hurt would have been forgotten. By the way, this bill had the support of a majority of just 15 in the House of Lords - many are still unconvinced. Hole No.1 countered.

Joe Soap not being able to kick them out early - semantics here. Harshly negative opinion polls, defeats in local elections etc leading to pressure from the opposition has in the past succeeded in forcing government to the polls by encouraging ruling MPs to show no-confidence in their party. I think we tie on this one depending on your perspective.

Europe et al. Believe me I have been smelling the roses for sometime having quite substantial funds invested in a smorgasbord of stocks and investment trusts of varying risks; and also as one of those entrepreneurs which this administration claim to back so much. Shame the banks do not see eye to eye with the PM, despite his constant pleading to them to do so. As Miliband quite concisely pointed out to DC at PM questions today (I'm not a Labour fan by the way) the Conservative manifesto pledged to protect the numbers of both police and nurses - not the proportion of front line. Since they have come to power, the numbers of both have dropped markedly. Now, is this the mark of a devious government (not that I used this term in the first place - I think you did...)?


Now, Labour admitted they too would be making budget cuts. But not so deep and not so fast. Only time will tell which strategy was best. However, time is currently showing that austerity has done nothing to kick-start the economy. Yes we may have (temporarily) protected our AAA credit rating. But has this inadvertently made GBP a safe haven thus pushing up the value of the pound and therefore making us less competitive amongst our peers? Well, the evidence is certainly indicating this...double dip for us, yet the Euro zone is in growth...

I'd love to share that red with you; I think we could seriously bore each other senseless.


:ok:

[mlc]

Cameron knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing. The points I've made about Policing are NOT nimbyism. YOUR policing service is being privatised. It's happening.

You cannot watch the eradication of our country's infrastructure, using the argument that there's no money, when at the same time overseas 'aid' is increased 40+ % to £12 billion and Cameron continues to throw billions at 'green' projects (which his wife and father in law do very nicely from).

I'm angry at seeing my pay cut and my pension slashed despite a massive increase in contributions. I DESPAIR at what is happening to the Police. G4S is soon to be a very big and very, very powerful company. With full access to all Police databases. You should be worried.