When to add anti icing to jet a1 f35 Fuel ?

[nellycopter]

Does anyone have a simple rule as to when anti icing has to be added to the fuel ?
Ie below x'c ?

I have read the flight manual which indicates oat <15'c if water concentration is > 30ppm.
Not needed if water <30ppm (-15'c <oat<0'c)

So having read the q8 fuel spec sheet that I received with the fuel It doesn't actually tell me the water ppm....

And what if you uplifted fuel at an airport/airfield How would you find out water ppm ?

Just wondering if there is rule of thumb on the side of caution ?

[nellycopter]

Ps I am new to the turbine world, and this being my first winter !

[nellycopter]

54 people have read it an no answers,
How strange for this forum,
One would at least expect some skitty replies .....

[Kalif]

Well I'll answer it and no doubt there will be someone who will differ, correct, expand my answer.

Don't know what you're flying but take the 355F; speaking from memory here.
In the limitations section it specifies anti-icing additive is mandatory below +4 degs C. So for winter in the old UK go for fuel with FSII added. If it doesn't have it then you need to add the stuff yourself as refuelling takes place. The stuff being PRIST and it comes in an aerosol sprayed in the tank to mix with the fuel. I seem to recall that you may find it difficult to find fuel with FSII pre-mixed so carry some PRIST with you.

[ericferret]

What are you flying Nelly?
Just curious as that temperature seems high for using prist or low considering the second set of figures. Alternative to Prist is DICE.

I think the water content of the fuel is a little of a red herring as you could have free water in the tanks.

Usually you just go by temperature, plus 15 seems high.

[nellycopter]

Ec120 eric,

The figures I wrote are from the manual, this is why I asked...
It's a bit confusing....

Nelly

[fijdor]

Taken from the B205 FM

Here in Northen Canada we operate Jet A1 fuel with FSII all year around, they don't even bother changing in the summer.

JD


ANTI-ICING FUEL ADDITIVE
When operating in temperatures below +40°F (+4°C), all fuel used in this helicopter
shall contain an anti-icing additive meeting the specification requirements of
PFA-55MB. Concentration of this additive in fuel in a loaded fuel tank shall not be less
than 0.035% nor more than 0.15% by volume. The minimum concentration of the
additive in the fuel with which the helicopter is to be refueled should be a least 0.06% by
volume to assure a loaded fuel tank concentration of at least 0.035%.

[fijdor]

This one is taken from the B206 manual.
Don't know which aircraft you will be flying

JD

I BHT-206B-FM-1
ANTI-ICING FUEL ADDITIVE
The fuel to be used when conducting flight operations below 4.4%’
(40°F) must contain an anti-icing additive meeting the specification
requirements of PFA-55MB. The fuel additive marketed
under the trade name PRIST meets this requirement and is
manufactured for blending with ASTM types A and A-l (JP-5)
and ASTM type B (JP-4) jet fuels.

Helicopters equipped with airframe mounted fuel filter do not
require the use of anti-icing additive at any ambient temperature.

The minimum concentration of the additive in a loaded fuel tank
should be at least 0.035 percent by volume.
The minimum concentration of the additive in the fuel with which

[nellycopter]

I have done some more reading around the tinterweb and think I should put the prist in when refuelling, last winter in the Uk saw the temp drop below -10'c.
It seems the norm now that airport / airfields do not have the al 48 anti ice in now as it wrecks the water filtration systems..

Anyone know where to get the priest aerosols from in the Uk please ?

Nelly

[ShyTorque]

I think Nelly said he was flying an EC120 called Eric. :p

Although most jet fuel supplied in UK is of good quality, best advice is to err on the side of caution when it comes to water content because you as an individual have no way of knowing what's been put in the tanks, or what got in last time it rained.

Trouble is, the stuff you have to add at the pump isn't safe in itself. A company I worked for ten years ago refused to allow its use due to health concerns and all stocks of the aerosol sprays were withdrawn.

I'm pleased to be flying a type where it's not required.

[nellycopter]

Can't see how that helps shy,
Sometimes I think you just reply to everything for the sake of replying......
Are you going for a medal or something for the most posts ?

I did say it's my first turbine, and jolly bloody good for you that you don't have to worry about a bucket full of water in the fuel in the type you fly.

Prist isn't. Good for you, nor is smoking but millions do ! Frozen fuel and a flame out ...........

Think I,ll start smoking prist..........

[ShyTorque]

Nelly, why the insult? I posted because I noticed you were complaining that no-one else had offered any (after only one Sunday afternoon at that).

If your flight manual says below plus 15 C then stick by that advice if you want to be certain. If you still want to complain, complain to your aircraft manufacturer for making the advice less than clear. Or, you could ask your maintenance organisation for specific advice, like other pilots do.

And that is the last ever advice you can expect from myself, you will probably be pleased to know.

Regarding post counts, I've been on the forum since it began in 1995. :rolleyes:

[feathering tickles]

Hello Nelly,

I think I met you at Helitech - you were with JS if I'm correct?

Send me a PM and I'll give you the details of where I buy anti-ice additive. I think I've got a can or two that you're welcome to in the meantime.

FT.

[roundwego]

If I remember correctly, in Northern North Sea ops in the UK we got Eurocopter to agree that the criteria for anti icing additive was based on fuel temperature not air temperature. We fitted fuel temperature guages and found that even in deepest winter flying at OAT's down to minus 10deg centigrade the fuel temp didn't drop to less than about +4c. Southern North Sea always had anti-icing additive added to the bulk fuel as the S76 fleet needed it and the majority of the SNS fleet was S76. Don't know what it is like now with all these Italian products around.

Prist is nasty stuff if exposed to it without adequate PPE. If you are a rat your testicles will fall off if exposed to enough of it - allegedly!

[zorab64]

Hi Nelly.
I, like ST, am also happy that I fly types that don't require additive unless my bits are being affected by the traditional brass monkeys - but, in this case, I've put my personal, jovial, "I'm alright Jack" comment at the start of my post instead of at the end. It's my personal-comfort-view, not a "looking down my nose at others" comment, as you seem to have taken it. One needs a little levity on this forum sometimes! :D

Whilst I don't know if I know ST, I do feel that insulting a "multi-poster" like him (I presume) is not in the spirit of pprune, especially as he had posted valid advice to your, rather impatient, post #3 just 2.5 hours after your initial question on a Sunday afternoon.

The above aside, and in answer to your original question, I think you'll find both aircraft & engine manufacturers have different requirements. For instance, it appears Pratt & Whitney engines in the MD902 require additive at -10c, but the almost identical engines in the EC135 only require it at -30c, with Turbomeca mandating it at -20c! No idea of the logic but, as ST has already suggested, following your manufacturer's advice will most probably keep you safer than not doing so.
Personally, I've not seen any advice that mandates additive at positive temps, nor any that links it to a water content.

The bottom line is that a "rule of thumb" could be a rather foolish rule to follow, with the singular exception that, if you're freezing, think about fuel additive a little more closely than if you're just wearing a T-shirt.

My personal cold weather additive is Drambuie! :ok:

[EN48]

From my E480B RFM (RR 250-C20W):


CAUTION:
Avoid using anti-icing/biocidal additives packaged in aerosol cans. Failure to exactly follow the additive mixing procedures during refueling can result in incorrect additive concentrations, fuel system contanination, and possible engine stoppage.


You may want to check if this applies to the EC-120. I suspect it does as it is related to the aerosol packaging and its correct usage. Preblended fuel would be your best bet if available.

You may want to read the material safety data sheet (MSDS) on Prist before casually blowing off the cautions offered by others here.

[RVDT]

it appears Pratt & Whitney engines in the MD902 require additive at -10c, but the almost identical engines in the EC135 only require it at -30c, with Turbomeca mandating it at -20c! No idea of the logic

Check which models of the engine have fuel heaters. 135 PWC = Yes

[FloaterNorthWest]

From memory the EC135 with Arriel 2B1/2 routes the fuel around the oil filter so it is warmed slightly therefore a lower temp for addition of anti-icing additive.

Not sure on the EC135Ps.

nellycopter,

AEROSENSE do an anti-icing additive. Aero Sense (http://www.aero-sense.com/en/home)

FNW

[s1lverback]

Might be worth checking with club/maintenance/fueller...I seem to remember when I last loaded EC120 at Redhill in winter that the fuel already had the additive in it.

[EN48]

Does anyone have a simple rule as to when anti icing has to be added to the fuel ?



This will typically be spelled out in the Limitations section of the RFM. If in Limitatiions, it is mandatory to do it as stated.

[nellycopter]

shytorque and all the good people of this forum....

i do formally appologise publically for my comment to shy comming accross as insultive.

it becomes frustrating that people on here that fly round in big expensive twins - seem to be-little the lower end of the market like myself.....

i asked, like many times on here - what i thought was a sensible question !
not too many months ago i asked a question about my R44 which is the machine i started out with - and one of the answers was 'buy a turbine'
a 'propper helicopter....
i know its a public forum - and one should expect this kind of banta - but i am sure that nearly all if not all on here - did not learn to fly in a big expensive twin ??? ..... you were where i am now ... one day in your past !

again Shy ! sorry !

nelly....

[ShyTorque]

Nelly,

Thankyou, I accept your apology.

However, I don't "swan about" in a big expensive twin, I fly a medium twin for a living and have been doing similar work since 1977. I don't find it glamourous, it's often damned hard work, especially when things don't go to plan such as weather or tech issues but the passenger still wants to go to his destination. There is no place for "swanning". In fact the particular type I fly is only one third the weight of the ones I used to fly. I feel privileged to have the job and I have worked hard from a very early age to get to this place; it's taken a very long time and an unglamourous lifestyle to achieve it (my wife will agree). I don't have many years left to retirement and I certainly don't feel I have to try to belittle anyone to improve my ego. I don't believe I've ever done this, at least not intentionally.

You will have to accept the "banter" because it is part of the way of life. Having said that, my earlier comment that I was pleased not to have to worry about the fuel icing issue was genuine and certainly not meant to be any sort of put down. It is a problem now that more fuel suppliers don't feel the need to provide an additive.

As I said earlier, and others have said since, "PRIST" is a potentially hazardous chemical so take the proper precautions if you have to use it yourself whilst refuelling.

The reason some aircraft have different limits despite having the same engine/s fitted is because it depends mostly on the LP fuel filter location and its exposure to ambient air temperature.

[Sir Korsky]

Helicopters equipped with airframe mounted fuel filter do not
require the use of anti-icing additive at any ambient temperature.

We regularly flew the 206 bs down to the jet A mins of -32c and always added prist just to be on the safe side, a little extra piece of mind on those dark lonely nights.