What punishment would a SofS get for breaching the official secrets act?

[Phoney Tony]

The rules for breaking rules for servicemen are clear and often far reaching. If Dr Fox is found to be lacking in another area of judgement what will happen to him?

I hope the full weight of the law applies equally!

[Pontius Navigator]

An interview with Terresa May and a touch of the cat.

[enginesuck]

Is it not possible for anybody to report a possible criminal act to the police to investigate ? I hope if it has been found that he has breached the OSA, the full weight of the law should be brought to bear on him.

[NutherA2]

An interview with Terresa May and a touch of the cat.

Is that the same as a good kicking with the kitten heels?

[P6 Driver]

1. A much higher pension than I'm going to get.
2. A Knighthood when the fuss dies down.

To put it another way - not much in the way of a kicking.

:E

[Trim Stab]

Nothing will happen to him - there are already clear precedents. When Chris Patten was Governor of Hong Kong, he admitted using raw information from SIS CX reports to pad out his biography "The Last Governor", all profits to himself. It was an utterly blatant and selfish abuse of the OSA, for which he received no punishment.

The OSA is only ever used against low level people who do not have the resources or backers to defend themselves against the might of the state. For example, the TA Interpreter who is still banged up for talking to Iranians, or Milos Stankovich who spoke to some Serbs in Bosnia, or a few low level people in security services who complained about poor treatment.

It is a law that badly needs repealing, because prosecutions have to be authorised by the Attorney General -ie it contravenes the principle of independence of the judiciary.

All Liam Fox needs to do is to buy Dominic Grieve a G&T and he will be ok.

[jindabyne]

Much adoo about nothing IMHO

[parabellum]

the TA Interpreter who is still banged up for talking to Iranians,

Bit of a whitewash from you there Trim Stab? Didn't he actually pass back information that could be useful to the enemy? A bit more serious than, "talking to Iranians".

[tucumseh]

Agree with Trim Stab. Also, the Freedom of Information Act has blurred the line. I've submitted numerous requests, most rejected on security grounds, only for another MoD department to provide them in the next post without me having to lodge an appeal.

I've a feeling Fox need look no further than some retired senior officers he has recently upset. If I'm right, they play a dangerous game because I'm sure Fox has lots of dirt.

And let's face it, there are posts on pprune that, strictly speaking, breach the OSA. But where would MoD be without pprune? It provides them with the Corporate Knowledge they ditched long ago and is demonstrably the source of many policy ideas. :)

[sidewayspeak]

Pull his best man's pants down and spank him? :eek::eek::eek:

[Corporal Clott]

It would be interesting to see what he has allegedly done. Is buying a mate a coffee in the "Pillared Hall" an OSA offence - even private chats in his office if all of the protected material is put away?

I've been to many meetings in MoD with people without clearance - they get an "escorted access" pass and in the meeting we cannot talk above unclassified level. So what is the big deal?

Sounds like Ed B0ll0cks and Ed Millipede trying to muck spread muck as usual to me.

CPL Clott

[BlindWingy]

Would anybody be sorry to see him go? Who's next in line?

[tucumseh]

I've been to many meetings in MoD with people without clearance - they get an "escorted access" pass and in the meeting we cannot talk above unclassified level.


When we moved to ShabbeyWood in 96, a certain favoured "unescorted" contractor was given his own networked computer terminal and password access to the entire Directorate's files and e-mails, which he could (and did) share with his "escorted" mates when they came a-calling. And if he wanted to read the Secret and Top Secret files in our Classified Documents Register, all he had to do was look behind him as they were stacked on the floor - we weren't given storage for the first few months.

I'm no lover of Defence Ministers, but I smell a rat.

[Biggus]

sidewayspeak

The SofS could be told that he is "..a very naughty boy..." and sent to bed early without any tea!

Alternatively, does MOD Main Building have a "naughty step"?

[VinRouge]

Tuc, not wrong there.

I wonder how many difficult decisions are being forced on SOS's office right now, who, IMHO, has done a fantastic job so far in very difficult circumstances. I dont think its a secret that L Fox has fought hard for the lads, which makes me wonder who gave the daily mail the story.

I would have to ask where did the video footage come from? Smacks to me, either Liam Foxes original story didnt tie up with the truth and the Cameroon media machine is doing a hatchet job (better to lose a finger before you have to chop off an arm), or, more Machiavellian, Fox is being fingered and moved aside for a poodle to take over, in light of further difficult decisions which the current SOS may have issues with.

Why exactly are people baying for his blood on here? Compare him to some of the spineless s0ds labour put in office and he is streets ahead.

[Lima Juliet]

Vin Rouge

Well said, Sir :D:D:D

[Dan Gerous]

Promoted and moved sideways.

[TBM-Legend]

Madam Fox and the "best" man....

I figure fishnet stockings go with the territory.

[Jimlad1]

I am really struggling to see the problem here. Ministers are phenomenally busy people - friends of mine have worked in their outer offices and the hours that many Ministers keep are extremely long, and the small outer office teams are extremely protective of their principal. If this guy was a close friend, then it would make sense to me to invite him into MB for a quick drink / coffee to catch up rather than go to a pub (security nightmare).

I've had friends and family come into the MOD before - providing you have a valid reason for them to be there, and you escort them at all times and dont expose them to things they shouldnt be seeing, then there is no issue.

This smacks of a left wing journalistic attempt to try and batter the Tory Right, and deny us a Minister who genuinely gives a damn about HM Forces.

[wiggy]

This smacks of a left wing journalistic attempt to try and batter the Tory Right

Ah yes, from that esteemed organ of left wing journalism, the Daily Mail :rolleyes:

Liam Fox allegations: Defence minister under pressure over Adam Werritty's job | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046929/Liam-Fox-allegations-Defence-minister-pressure-Adam-Werrittys-job.html)

[VinRouge]

who else would the lefties go to in order to outrage the spoilt baby boomer middle class vote? no point. publishing it in the guardian.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Maybe it's just me. But, other than his leaked letter to the DT prior to SDSR, I am struggling to come to terms with the good work the SoS has done; other than, of course, the removal of our MPA capability, our FW carrier fleet, the reduction in personnel of 30k, reduction in pension and allowances packages... Am I missing something?

Duncs:ok:

[Not_a_boffin]

Oh yes. The alternative is that well known friend of services other than the Army, Mr Nicholas "Fatty" Soames............

Fox is probably the main reason MoD took "only" 8%, as opposed to the 15+ that HMT were after.

His behaviour with his mate appears to be questionable (sorry, f8cking stupid!), but don't conflate that with a desire to punish "someone" for the recent (and still to come) pain...

Be very careful what you wish for.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

BTW, I am not suggesting that the alternatives are any better; simply that the best of a bad bunch is not necessarily good.

Duncs:ok:

[betty swallox]

Och, come on! He's just been on the telly, acting like a schoolboy that got caught with his hands down his troosers after lights out!
I would push for a vote of no confidence in Dr Fox!! He should have stuck to doing the Chart Show on a Sunday afternoon...

[Phoney Tony]

The letter from Ministry of Defence permanent secretary Ursula Brennan to Cabinet Secretary Sir Gus O'Donnell outlining her initial findings of a review into Defence Secretary Liam Fox's meetings with his friend Adam Werritty.

The full report is due to be completed by October 21.

Dear Gus,

Review of the Defence Secretary's meetings with Adam Werritty

1. You asked me for a summary of my interim findings.

Process

2. The information and conclusions in this note are drawn from an analysis of the Secretary of State's diary and from conversations with some of the key parties. There has not yet been time for a thorough analysis of the evidence; this will be conducted this week. I have commissioned a trawl for the email and electronic evidence on:

Overseas trips

- Details from Dr Fox's diary for the 18 trips (including holidays) on which it is believed that Adam Werritty was present. - Details of who else was present on these trips and who attended which formal and informal event. - Emails, diplomatic telegrams, trip reports from the MoD international teams, and Private Office meeting notes from these visits. - Correspondence about diary dates concerning these trips - to establish whether staff from the Secretary of State's Private Office provided information to Adam Werritty about dates, timings and locations of visits. - Emails between the Private Office and Adam Werritty to establish whether information (other than in connection with the diary) was communicated to Mr Werritty. - Security control logs which will show the dates on which Mr Werritty visited the MoD main building.

3. I have also commissioned a series of interviews with past and present members of Dr Fox's Private Office, including special advisers, staff who travelled with the Secretary of State on relevant visits and the Secretary of State himself to confirm their recollections of the events in question.

4. Although there is still further material to be checked, I am already clear that there are areas where the current guidance on propriety and the management of Ministerial Private Offices needs to be strengthened.

Interim Findings

Adam Werritty's visits to MoD main building

5. Further work on the logs showing people who have entered the MoD Main Building suggests that Adam Werritty was present on 22 rather than 14 occasions. I believe this now to be an accurate record of Mr Werritty's visits, but I cannot exclude the possibility that there may have been a visit which for whatever reason was not recorded in the logs. I have spoken to the Principal Private Secretary and other members of the Private Office staff; they believe that Adam Werritty's visits to the Main Building were largely personal conversations with the Defence Secretary. They are confident that the Department did not provide Mr Werritty with classified papers or briefings. This is confirmed by Dr Fox, who pointed out that while on most occasions Mr Werritty came to his office, there were occasions when the two met in the Pillared Hall coffee bar in the MOD Main Building.

6. In the analysis to date I have found only four instances where others were present during these visits. Two of these cases occurred when a Private Secretary and a Special Adviser were present to discuss diary arrangements for the lecture in Sri Lanka. A third occurred when a Sri Lankan visitor called on the Defence Secretary for a discussion which Mr Werritty had organised; he accompanied the Sri Lankans. The fourth was an occasion when Mr Werritty was present during a meeting with the then forthcoming Ambassador to Israel. Dr Fox acknowledges that it was not appropriate for Mr Werritty to have attended such a meeting at the MOD.

7. In the next phase of the investigation I will seek to confirm the dates and times of the known visits and whether there were any other visits where others were present apart from Dr Fox and Mr Werritty.

Overseas trips

8. The Defence Secretary's overseas visits are complex, often involving brief stop-overs en route from one location to another, with meetings being arranged and re-arranged at short notice. Some meetings start or finish with personal time, e.g. when the Secretary of State is on holiday and others contain periods of 'downtime' for personal relaxation during the busy schedule. Some overseas trips include political engagements. Maintaining an appropriate degree of separation between these elements is complex, but is necessary for reasons of propriety. The Department needs to ensure that a clear distinction is made between party political, personal and government business, to avoid the occurrence of actual or perceived conflicts of interest. There is, however, a potential grey area, where personal or party political meetings or events take place during times when the Secretary of State is not accompanied by a Private Secretary; such events can potentially stray into government business.

9. On the question of distinguishing between party political and government business, for the avoidance of doubt, I believe it would be helpful to make it clear that it is the responsibility of the Minister to report immediately to the Private Secretary any instance where there has been discussion touching on Departmental or wider government business at a party political or personal meeting or event.

10. On the distinction between personal time and official business, I have not found any evidence that the rules on paying for personal travel and accommodation have been breached.

11. On the 'grey area', I believe that further guidance is needed to assist Ministers and Private Office staff who are responsible for managing Ministers' diaries. Some trips will cross a week-end; others will have free time because of a holiday in the country in question, or because meetings had to be cancelled. In general, the Private Office will need to know where the Minister will be (for security purposes) and how to maintain contact; apart from this, the Private Office should not intrude on the Minister's personal free time. The evidence suggests that there has been at least one occasion (the meeting with Harvey Boulter) when the Defence Secretary had a planned meeting on MOD business, due to take place during free time. The nature of this encounter was not known to the Private Office and therefore they did not arrange to have a Private Secretary present. To avoid this happening again, Private Offices should ensure that their Minister is clear that any meetings or visits due to take place during personal time should not touch on government business. If there is a risk that a personal meeting may stray into government business, the Private Secretary should ensure that an official be present.

12. It appears that there have been occasions when Adam Werritty was present at informal or social gatherings (eg an informal dinner), in the margins of conferences or other events attended by the Defence Secretary. In future on all Ministerial visits (in the UK and abroad) the Private Office should clarify the attendance of people not part of the Ministerial party (other than the spouse/partner of the Minister) at informal or social gatherings. For dinners, events etc organised by the Embassy/High Commission there will usually be an agreed guest list for any hospitality provided at UK government expense. Where the event is informal (eg the guests are paying their own way) or is organised by the host country, care should still be taken to ensure that there is no confusion about who is and is not a member of the Ministerial party.

Diary information

13. During the course of the review it has become apparent that the Defence Secretary provided or asked his office to provide some diary details to Adam Werritty, in connection with visits where Mr Werritty was to be present. In the next phase of the review I will confirm this from email records. Dr Fox has accepted that it is not appropriate to ask officials to provide Ministerial diary information to a third party. I will make clear to all Private Offices that they should not share diary dates, travel or accommodation information for their Ministers with third parties other than the Minister's spouse/partner, or third parties travelling with the Ministerial party.

Business Cards

14. I became aware of the allegation that Adam Werritty was handing out business cards describing himself as 'Adviser to Rt Hon Dr Liam Fox' following a story in The Guardian on 19 August 2011, when I was on leave. The day after my return to the office (23 August) I raised the issue at my routine meeting with the Secretary of State. Dr Fox confirmed that he had already dealt with the problem and that it was wrong for Mr Werritty to have used such a card. When we discussed the issue again in the past few days I asked if the Defence Secretary had first become aware of the problem in August; he replied that he thought he first knew of it in June, and that this was when he had told Adam Werritty to stop the practice. This is confirmed by one of the Special Advisers, who recalls becoming aware of the problem in June, possibly as the result of an earlier press comment. He recalls that immediately after this the Defence Secretary and the Special Advisers held a meeting with Mr Werritty at which Dr Fox told Mr Werritty that this was unacceptable and he must stop issuing the business cards.

15. I am copying this letter to Dr Liam Fox.

Yours sincerely, Ursula Brennan

[jindabyne]

A change of mind: he has to go. If he took this person with him on many working engagements, without a very senior minder taking note of the discussions, then that is a calamitous breach of procedure and lays him bare. Silly chap becaust it appears he was well regarded at the coal face. Will his boss take the opportunity, therefore, to replace him with a more toe-the-line chappy? Probably. Politicians - young and old, bastards all!!

[Phoney Tony]

Sack him now. He has lost the credibility required of his office. He has lied. His judgement is seriously flawed.

[tucumseh]

I'm struggling to get excited about this. I'd be more interested in what a certain be-robed former Loonie Labour Defence Procurement Minister has to say about a company which he was a director of, and his son an employee of, receiving preferential treatment when contracts were being handed out; despite having a history of delivering crap, unsafe products which had been the subject of a total recall and destruction order. Leading indirectly to deaths of servicemen as the product took 3 years to replace.

Fox and Werrity may have been asses, but so far there is no evidence remotely approaching the seriousness of what is considered the norm elsewhere in MoD.

[TBM-Legend]

"Foxy" might just like a good spanking for his mis-steps.....;)

[Warmtoast]

What punishment would a SofS get for breaching the official secrets act?


Not sure that Fox is guilty of any breach of security, but the only major breach that went unpunished (that I know about) dates from 1982 when former Labour Foreign Affairs minister Edward (Ted) Rowlands MP (now Baron Rowlands), in a debate in Parliament on the Falklands War on 3 April 1982 revealed that we (the British) were reading Argentine diplomatic codes. Rowlands was criticised for revealing this intelligence source, as the likely result of his disclosure was that the Argentinians would secure their systems and the intelligence would dry up. Mrs Thatcher called it "utterly devastating".

As Labour MP for Merthyr Tydfil, Rowlands was an experienced former Foreign Office minister in the Labour government who was involved in earlier Falklands negotiations in the late 1970's

He remained a Labour MP and from 1987 onwards served on the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. His "reading the codes" disclosure obviously had no effect on his future prospects as he was appointed a CBE in 2002, and in June 2004 he was given a life peerage, as Baron Rowlands of Merthyr Tydfil and of Rhymney.

As Hansard reported on Rowlands' participation in the debate on 3 April 1982:


Secondly, I have great difficulty in understanding how the intelligence failed. Our intelligence in Argentina was extremely good. That is why we took action in 1977. We found out that certain attitudes and approaches were being formed. I cannot believe that the quality of our intelligence has changed. Last night the Secretary of State for Defence asked "How can we read the mind of the enemy?" I shall make a disclosure. As well as trying to read the mind of the enemy, we have been reading its telegrams for many years. I am sure that many sources are available to the Government, and I do not understand how they failed to anticipate some of the dangers that suddenly loomed on the horizon.


So a public rebuke plus horizontal promotion / elevation to the upper house together with the award of a gong of sorts will be about right.

It'll be interesting to see what happens.

[teeteringhead]

I've been to many meetings in MoD with people without clearance - they get an "escorted access" pass and in the meeting we cannot talk above unclassified level. .... when one was serving in the Ministry about 12 years ago, so was the Duke of York, who was a serving two-and-a-half (or maybe Cdr?). Our work overlapped in some areas.

Bumped into him in the corridors one day, he was with his younger bro Prince Edward, who was wearing a pink (!) Visitors' Pass - must be escorted - rather than the green unescorted variety ....... ;)

[Not_a_boffin]

More like 14 years and in DNPlans wasn't he?

[tucumseh]

I think they created a post for him in DNW, after being an AW instructor at Portland(?) But he soon gained a reputation for being quite diligent. He certainly didn't like those who bowed and scraped to him, or the fact minor meetings would suddenly attract a veritable constellation of Stars who knew nothing about the subject. He did draw the line one day when an ex-RN Chief, now a civvy, asked for an autograph. :ok:

[Al Murdoch]

If we're talking about punishments (aside from losing his job, which seems somewhat unavoidable now), you only have to look back to the case of the Rt Hon David Blunkett MP when, as a home secretary, he fraudulently abused the travel warrant system and abused his position to get his lover's nanny's visa application sorted out. He didn't actually get sacked, he resigned after several months. But his punishment for demonstrating a lack of integrity that would put a journalist to shame was.... nothing. Not a sausage.

[jindabyne]

After my last post, and seeing his schoolboy-ish, blushed performance in the HoC, the man should fall on his sword; sad, because I thought he had credibility. Yet another example of our present-day, weak leaders. But there appears to be no credible successor. I fear for the future- not mine, as I'm enjoying my autumn, but my grandkids'. The kids are already doomed.

[pr00ne]

So, someone likes to take his lover abroad with him and has him stay overnight in his flat, big deal.

[Wrathmonk]

someone likes to take his lover abroad with him and has him stay overnight in his flat

Have I missed something here Pr00ne? Assuming I haven't will you be defending yourself or engaging the services of one of your colleagues....;)

[pr00ne]

Who are YOU talking about?

[Wrathmonk]

Nice try .....

[airborne_artist]

I doubt there's a sexual element - seems pretty clear it's probably about money, but until they make clear who has made what money and how, the rumours about sex will continue.

Perhaps they want them to continue so we forget there might have been a financial, not sexual motive. It'd be much easier to say "OK, I'm gay/bi-sexual, even though I'm married" than to say "We've/he's had our/his snout(s) in the trough and it's all in a Swiss bank account".

[Clearedtoroll]

I think it's sad and surprising that a minority here seem to have subconsciously absorbed the tabloids and decided he's guilty. He may be guilty (though I'm not sure what of? Upsetting the Guardian?), and certainly nothing is proven yet.

Given the circumstances, I think he's done a pretty reasonable job compared to his recent predecessors, most of whose names I can't even remember. Whilst that shouldn't stop him going if he is proven guilty of something serious, it would be frustrating to see him go because he had coffee with his mate one too many times and may have had 'a man stay in his flat oh he must be gay'.

[racedo]

Not sure that Fox is guilty of any breach of security, but the only major breach that went unpunished (that I know about) dates from 1982 when former Labour Foreign Affairs minister Edward (Ted) Rowlands MP (now Baron Rowlands), in a debate in Parliament on the Falklands War on 3 April 1982 revealed that we (the British) were reading Argentine diplomatic codes. Rowlands was criticised for revealing this intelligence source, as the likely result of his disclosure was that the Argentinians would secure their systems and the intelligence would dry up. Mrs Thatcher called it "utterly devastating".

As Labour MP for Merthyr Tydfil, Rowlands was an experienced former Foreign Office minister in the Labour government who was involved in earlier Falklands negotiations in the late 1970's

He remained a Labour MP and from 1987 onwards served on the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. His "reading the codes" disclosure obviously had no effect on his future prospects as he was appointed a CBE in 2002, and in June 2004 he was given a life peerage, as Baron Rowlands of Merthyr Tydfil and of Rhymney.

Or the alternate view was that it was sending a message, done it such a way that HMG would proclaim outrage but completely deniable. The agreement done with MP well in advance, thus forcing Argentina to spend time worrying about what secrets were being read and which were not but the real Human Intel info sources still kept under wraps. Classic disinformation technique.

The clear fact that the MP didn't suffer or get abused from press for ever after have always brought me closer to the latter.

[LFFC]

Who's the Boss?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/14/article-2048963-0E4AFE4E00000578-807_634x358.jpg

Adam Werritty and Liam Fox in 2007 in Middle East (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2048963/Liam-Fox-quit-Adam-Werritty-admit-Tories.html#ixzz1alUnotgg) - MailOnline

[Grabbers]

Fox resigns. You'll have to provide your own link.

Good or bad for us?

[Willard Whyte]

Liam Fox and Adam Werritty: latest - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8819554/Liam-Fiox-and-Adam-Werritty-live-blog.html)

Good or bad?

Not sure. I'm unlikely to get my job back as a result of his departure so ultimately I don't give a to55.

Philip Hammond rumoured to take over SecDef. Don't know much about him.

[Kluseau]

Philip Hammond? Who's going to present Top Gear then?

The Beeb link for the resignation story is here:
BBC News - Liam Fox quits as defence secretary (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15300751)

[LFFC]

Why don't you make up your own mind?

The new Secretary of State, Defence may well be:

Philip Hammond (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/philip_hammond/runnymede_and_weybridge)

Conservative MP for Runnymede and Weybridge
Secretary of State, Transport (since 12 May 2010)

Although he seems to have an interesting stance on Trident.

[BOAC]

I see he has voted 'strongly' against the Hunting Ban - there you go. Job done.:ok:

[WPH]

No doubt he's supported Fox hunting this week!

[fantom]

Good or bad for us?

Good.

Longer runways; more beer; bigger wimmin and no nite-flying.