Eurofighter Typhoon for India and Japan?

[AlienfromPaul]

Hello everyone. First I would like to say it is very pleasant to be a member on this forum and I am looking forward to having a chat with you all. :)

I thought I'd might start a new thread rather than jumping in on someones' conversation, just to be polite and all, so I thought it might be a good idea to start one about the potential sales of the Eurofighter Typhoon to India and Japan.

So I'm just wondering what your thoughts are and do you think the Eurofighter Typhoon has a serious chance of winning in these two countries? :)

I'll look forward to chatting with you about this.

Kindest regards

Paul

[Max Reheat]

No chance with Japan. Just look at their commercial aircraft sales.

When it comes to this kind of thing the the Land of the Rising Sun is a satellite of Uncle Sam.

[jwcook]

I'm a little more optimistic re Japan, The Japanese are making the right noises to Eurofighter GmbH, however it does remain to be seen if the Typhoon is being used as a stalking horse for an American product.

(Its having the desired effect, after the shock the US got in India they are offering more than ever before inc local JSF production!! and thats for a non partner country too!!)

[Finningley Boy]

I'd have thought that the sale to Inda would meet with no awkwardness at all. i.e. Offer them a 70% discount as part of the overseas aid package!:ok::}

FB:)

[Dan Winterland]

Japan have been denied the F22 which they were asking for. That's why they're looking at Typhoon.

As for a buy US policy, ANA operate a number of Airbus aircraft.

[LowObservable]

It would surprise me too in Japan went for Typhoon, but...

The requirement is for air defense, which is why they wanted the F-22's acceleration, speed, altitude and load-out. Typhoon is closer to the F-22 in those respects than anything else.

The Super Hornet is good for a lot of missions that JASDF is not going to do with this aircraft (like CAS and FAC-A) and is certainly not the world's speed champion (although the EPE engine and conformals help). The USN, on paper, also plans to start retiring it in 2030. They won't, of course, but questioning the program of record means questioning plans for the F-35C, which is non-career-enhancing.

The F-35 still has no fixed acquisition or operating costs, or IOC date, and equally is not going to win speed records. In stealth mode it carries four AIM-120s, and radar aperture is smaller than the Typhoon.

Result: turning down the Europeans has a higher-than-usual price tag for Japan.

[jindabyne]

Does anyone have a handle on potential timescales for these programmes?

[ICBM]

F-35C has the real estate to fit more than 4 x AIM-120 internally. LM even have a 'demonstration' rig on how they can achieve this and it really is possible to do so. With an external AIM-120 loadout to add to the internal carriage capability, F-35 would match or even exceed carriage capability of modern 4th Gen platforms and still remain more stealthy than Typhoon.

Typhoon has a mech-scan radar designed in the 1980s; F-35 has the world's most advanced AESA radar currently fielded - it's in a different league altogether. So, until a Typhoon export comes with a proven, capable AESA radar it's 'money for old rope'

I'd bet on a deal between the US and Japan, for what it's worth. Why? If the Japanese were prepared to part with the cash for F-22 ($200M per copy?), $$ are clearly not a huge concern in their final choice; 5th gen capabilities are.

[rjtjrt]

Low Obs said "turning down the Europeans has a higher-than-usual price tag for Japan."

Perhaps going with Europe would have a higher-than-usual price tag for Japan

One thing to consider for Japan in terms of price tag will be the potential for Europe to turn it's back on Japan, if Japan and China faced off.

There are still plenty of people in Australia who bitterly recal the attitude of France, Sweden, Switzerland and especially Britain (who we supposedly had a long and close relationship with) during the 1960's when they refused to supply ammunition, parts or support for Mirage, Pilatus Porter, and Canberra bombers in the RAAF and Australian Army due to our involvement in Vietnam.
Japan would be much more likely to have continuing support from USA rather than from Europe.

John

[LowObservable]

ICBM - Real estate's not worth much without plumbing and power, and the 6X internal AMRAAM story is not that simple. If you have a public link to a "demonstration rig" it would be interesting to see it.

The F-35 does not have the world's most advanced AESA currently fielded - because it does not have anything fielded. When it does it will be part of the same technology stream as everything else.

[LOAgent]

LO

I'm not sure of the relevance of your point concerning the smaller radar aperture of the F35 vice the Typhoon. If it's radar capability you are hinting at then I would much rather have the Litening IIs AESA in front of me than the Captor.

I think your point about what the Japanese want a new fighter for is much more relevant however. F35 does not really suit their requirements for a missile truck as well as some other platforms out there.

As for me, I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of an F22 sale just yet. However, failing that I don't think the Japanese would go for the F35. They'd buy the Silent Eagle before then.

[engineer(retard)]

LOA/rjtjrt

LO is correct, the 120 C was initially designed due to a lack of carriage room in the F-35 bay, a 6 shooter would be squeaky. Also a smaller aperture tends to result in less gain and worse target discrimination, although you can play tricks with it. Although it does offer significant advantages AESA is not the answer to a maidens prayer and i would wait to see installed performance before getting too excited.

A run off between Typhoon and Silent Eagle would be intriguing

[Evanelpus]

When it comes to this kind of thing the the Land of the Rising Sun is a satellite of Uncle Sam

Maybe, maybe not but at the end of the day it'll come down to cost and who gives the biggest kickbacks.

The UK also sold Japan 'military' derivatives of the BAe125-800?

[Mr_breaker]

Hey guys im new here so go easy on me... The Typhoon will be getting the latest & most advanced version of AEAS radar by 2014, and it comes with a swashplate. im not sure about the F35 sizes etc.. but the AEAS radar in the typhoon will have the biggest radar out of the latest gen jet due to the size of the nose cone.

Im sure it will be part of the deal with japan. Another key factor for the eurofighter team will be the full technology transferr, something u cant put a price on meaning japan will have a excellent platfrom of tech to build there own next generation of jets.

[LOAgent]

Engineer(retard)

I was not calling into question any internal carriage issues. However, point of order, 't-was not the internal carriage on the F35 that drove the clipped wings methinks.

I'm most definitely not buying the AESA vs M-Scan radar argument though. I am fully aware of the Radar Power equation implying larger gain is better and that this can be achieved through use of large apertures. I do however completely scoff your implication that the smaller aperture on the F-35 (compared to the Captor) results in significant gain losses (again compared to a M-Scan radar) that cannot be regained in other areas of the AESA design. The vast number of advantages offered by AESA radars - beam agility, pulse to pulse frequency agility, advanced waveform usage for example - massively outweigh the disadvantages.

Similar argument applies for target discrimination wrt larger apertures giving smaller beam-widths at the half power point. Completely correct that the larger aperture should win. However to compare an M-Scan to an AESA is like comparing apples to oranges.

I've used both types and am unashamedly an AESA convert!

[engineer(retard)]

LOA

That was how the 120C was pitched to the Brits :mad:

If you re-read my post, you will notice I did not rubbish the AESA concept:

"Although it does offer significant advantages AESA is not the answer to a maidens prayer and i would wait to see installed performance before getting too excited."

There is a long road from a bench to integrated system and there are multiple projects that took a very long time to achieve the required performance.

regards

retard

[LOAgent]

I didn't think for one minute that you were rubbishing AESAs. I was attempting to add some meat to the 'larger aperture equals better gain and better angular resolution' assertion from your earlier post.

No hostile intent, my apologies if you considered my post as such.

We were naive in extremis if we thought the C had been designed for F35. I think we only need to look at the timeline that the C was introduced into service and what other confined space airframe was being developed at the time to find the real driver behind clipped fins and wings.

[engineer(retard)]

No offence intended, the aperture argument was a generalisation but to a degree applies to AESA as well, if you can face more TRM forward.

I cannot go into any detail about the 120C here but there were other factors in play, which is why I had the little censored smiley.

[LOAgent]

I definitely agree with the 'more TRM is better' argument.

I suspect there are many issues involved with the 120C on the F35 for the UK, not least of which I imagine would be the introduction into service of the Meteor.

[Gravelbelly]

Typhoon has a mech-scan radar designed in the 1980s

Rubbish, it was the 1990s (I was there designing it, I can assure you that we were pushing the boundaries of what the ASIC foundries could offer us in 1995) and that was just Tranche 1. The Tranche 2 radar included early 2000s technology, and involved a pretty comprehensive redesign of the processor path.

F-35 has the world's most advanced AESA radar currently fielded - it's in a different league altogether. So, until a Typhoon export comes with a proven, capable AESA radar it's 'money for old rope'

Obviously, the 2007 flight of CAESAR in a Typhoon passed you by...

[LOAgent]

Whatever happened to CAESAR?

Whilst Captor is definitely not 80s technology and is a bloody decent radar I firmly believe that not having an ESA (I'd go as far as to say AESA) is a large achilles heel for a modern fighter when pitted against modern threats. No just to secure FMS but, far more importantly, to ensure that the operators have the right kit for the job.

I suspect the answer is the same as usual. Money, money, money. Not that it is an invalid reason, just an infuriating one.

[AlienfromPaul]

@LOAgent,

CAESAR is the Captor-E that is being proposed to India and Japan too I'm certain. It's radar antenna will be mounted on a Repositioner giving it 220~degree total field of regard. 110~degree left & 110~degree right. Considerably more degrees than the current Captor and the AESAs' of the F-35 and F/A-18 Super Hornet - many experts believe that the Captor is better than the Super Hornet's AESA.

Also, Japan aren't going to get the F-22, the US has made it clear. The Silent Eagle is out of the question because it ain't in the F-X bid.

@Gravelbelly,

if you really were a part of the design team of the Captor, you'd be pleased to know that the IAF pilots were "very impressed" with it's performance. They like your work.

@Mr_breaker,

2015 is the planned introduction year for the Captor-E, not 2014.

With regards to India. An interesting article was article was released a few days ago mentioning the L1 bid, heres what it stated in one paragraph;

"However it is understood that the procurement policy has a provision that allows MoD to discard L1 lowest cost bidder for 'strategic benefit' that the next highest bidder offers . The policy document is deliberately vague on what qualifies as strategic benefit, an exceptional ToT offer or partnership may be considered strategically beneficial."

MACHINIST - MoD approves offset proposals for India's 126 MMRCA deal (http://machinist.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3807&Itemid=2)

Could this place the Typhoon at an advantage? I think it might.

-Paul

[jwcook]

Whatever happened to CAESAR?

Caesar was a success, and from that Captor-e was developed, thats a lot of the back end of Captor-m but with a AESA front end.

Its being offered to India and any of the partners who want it as a retrofit.

Cheers

[ion_berkley]

Rubbish, it was the 1990s (I was there designing it, I can assure you that we were pushing the boundaries of what the ASIC foundries could offer us in 1995) and that was just Tranche 1. The Tranche 2 radar included early 2000s technology, and involved a pretty comprehensive redesign of the processor path. Not to be argumentative, but I can remember us doing the backend on those particular ASICs in the 1991/92 timeframe, so you might be a bit confused on that one....CLA7000 was the technology I think.

[Gravelbelly]

Not to be argumentative, but I can remember us doing the backend on those particular ASICs in the 1991/92 timeframe

There were a fair few ASICs across the design - and some got completed earlier than others. While the design started around then, some of the processors didn't get completed for another couple of years. There was one where the foundry apparently sucked air in through its teeth at the size and speed requirements, and asked for another six months; another that had to be respun very late on because the foundry had decided that they knew best, and had substituted their own design of multiplier block in place of the specified one (it took the affected team months to track down the root cause of that bug...).

Certainly, we still had HDL designers working hard through the mid-90s.

Before anyone suggests "off-the-shelf", they should remember that in those two-decade-ago days that if you wanted high-performance electronic kit, you had to design it all in-house. Clock speeds were in the low double figures of MHz; a single megabit of memory was utter luxury. From a software point of view, there were no commercially available, and robust, real-time operating systems; optimising compilers for C were still in their youth; there were no standard libraries; there were only one or two ADA design environments for our data processor team. There were no NATO-standard avionics platforms; commercial backplanes in processor chassis couldn't cut it from a mechanical or bandwidth basis; there were no COTS boards capable of handling the data volumes concerned, at the reliability required, with the specified levels of built-in test.

Of course, most of this had changed by the late 90s, by which time we'd been flying ECR-90 in DA5 for a year or two? I moved to a technical demonstrator that was using COTS boards and a proper OS in the flight kit, while the team writing the data processor software for AMSAR was a quarter of the size of the ECR-90 team, (because they were using more advanced tools to do it).

[Mr_breaker]

MACHINIST - MoD approves offset proposals for India's 126 MMRCA deal (http://machinist.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3807&Itemid=2)

Could this place the Typhoon at an advantage? I think it might.


@ Paul..

what i found intresting from that artical was this comment.

foreign vendors bagging deals will have to invest back 50 per cent of the worth of the deal in Indian defence industry

This will help Eurofighter consortium as they plan to build a factory in indian to help build the 700 typhoons ordered by UK, Germany, Spain, Italy etc..

[t43562]

Gravelbelly, I am a programmer so I find what you are saying fascinating. There are huge changes in tools and hardware happening all the time and it's hard to keep up with the full spectrum of it. I wonder how it's all going to affect defence - if there could be a situation where there is a big advantage for the country which spends it's money last rather than first.

I make tools, of a kind, hence the interest. :-)

[Boogeyboard]

Reportedly Typhoon comes with AESA in Japan.

[Boogeyboard]

Safe with the US? Tell that to Taiwan. Read the newspapers. China blocks US F16 sales.

[backseatjock]

Re timescales, Indian MoD says it will reach a decision during November (we'll see) but it is an EADS/Cassidian lead and not BAE there.

Bids have gone into Japan (BAE lead) and the general view is Japan will take the F35 and possibly a number of Typhoon. Considering the fact that Japan was never actually seen as a potential customer, any number would be a bonus.

Ongoing Typhoon campaigns in Malaysia, Qatar and Oman too with Saudi rumoured to be considering an additional purchase. All of these markets are BAE leads.

Interest in Typhoon, from potential export customers, seems to be higher than ever at the moment although budget is obviously an issue for a number or potential customers.

[AlienfromPaul]

Even though EADS/Cassidian are leading the Indian bid BAE have seemed to have quite an influence also.

From going through various peoples comments and articles to get something of an Idea of what is thought about Japan's requirements for their F-X fighter. Obviously theres the odd Yank boasting that theres nothing better than the "proven" F-35 and the "carrier capable" F/A-18 Super Hornet and have narrow minded views of the Eurofighter Typhoon. However there is a lot of decent folk that look at things at different angles to get more of a perspective view & quite a few seem to reckon the F-35 is too much of a risk to order now when so much is still uncertain of the programme.

Indeed the price of the Typhoon may be a concern, however I find it slightly odd that the likes of Oman, Malaysia, Japan, Turkey the UAE to some extent etc have seemed to put orders back slightly, just after when India are due to announce the winner of the MMRCA competition. Of course if India selects the Typhoon of 126+ aircraft production costs would come down making it more of an attractive offer.

With India being the 5th member of the Eurofighter Consortium and involved in production and manufacturing of the Typhoon, they would have their fair share from sales to other counrtries such as Japan, Malaysia and other countries in the Middle East.

With such an attactive offer for India would it be arrogant to think that EADS/Cassidian have this deal bagged?

[LowObservable]

Or to put it another way - if India selects the Typhoon, the price of the Rafale will come down.

Countries with smaller fleet requirements might do well to see which way the cat (tiger?) jumps.