PPrune – Military Aircrew - Half Glass Empty, Almost total Doom and Gloom!!!

[SRENNAPS]

I am sorry, but I feel it is time to post this thread and if I get banned, so be it.

It seems to me that just about every other thread on “Military Aircrew” these days is total doom and gloom, written by people who have a half glass attitude to just about everything associated with military life.

Times are hard for everybody at the moment and it does not look like it is going to get any better. But what is needed is people who bring something positive to the situation; a laugh, a joke and motivation & inspiration. If some of you here are actually in charge of people then God help us.

I only left the RAF 4 years ago so I am not that out of touch. In fact I am still very much in contact with many people serving on several Sqns. Most of the people that I chat to on a regular basis are still quite happy with their lives. Those that are not have applied for redundancy or PVR. That has always been the case and it will continue.

What really annoys me on this website is that some of you really think that you are the hardest done by people in the world. Well I suggest that you open your eyes, look around, read a bit of history, listen to some of the older and bolder posts and start living. Oh, and the other thing that annoys me is the number here that live on the backs of those that really do get it tough in Afgan or Iraq etc. It always tickles me that some of you don’t seem to have any time with your family because of your commitments away, but you are able to spend half your live here on this website, even when you come home (if you have really been away in the first place).

I spent many a year with 5 to 7 months away from my family and in those days we had no internet or even mobile phones. A Goals call once a week and that was if you were lucky. We begged, borrowed and “acquired” certain bits of uniform and kit to survive. We made our lockers and cupboards out of cardboard (yes I know – brown paper bag and all that) and our SEPAL was boll@cks in comparison to what you get these days. But I tell you what we did it, just got on with it and we had a great laugh.

So, lets have more positive threads about the RAF and less threads about how hard done by you are. Of course, if you don’t like it you can always leave instead of infecting the rest with your disease.

Yours, totally frustrated with some of the crap I read here.

P.S. My opinion is that a lot of the posts on this website do not reflect the true opinion of the majority serving in the RAF

[Charlie Time]

As I approach 25 years in next month I can say honestly that it has never been so bad. My experience is all I have to judge against and IMHO the tone portrayed on here largely reflects the reality of a grim situation.

[L J R]

I was positively happy to leave last year.

[SRENNAPS]

Sorry mate but the reality is that the situation is pretty grim just about everywhere. That also includes the police, the fire service, the nurses and just about all that work in the civil sector. It is also not too good in certain aspects of the private sector, especially the defence industry. Everybody involved is hurting!!

[Lima Juliet]

Yup, I joined 21.8 years ago and there were 98,000 of us. Now there's just about 35,000. Also, there were 11 Air Defence Squadrons - now just 3. There were 3 times as many mudmovers and there was a far better command structure, flight safety ethic and "work hard, play hard" really was to the fore.

In my 21.8 years I have watched it be dismatled before my very eyes and now enough is enough, I'm voting with my feet - whilst it is still an option!

Come on SRENNAPS, I dream of 'RAF yesteryear' - GOALS Calls, proper allowances, clerks you speak to about admin matters, TACEVALS, global exercise detachments, weekends away in RAF Germany/Honkers/Goose Bay/Akrotiri/Gib (only 1 left now that is a shadow of its former self), indulgence flights and Squadron Lunches into Happy Hours where we were allowed to break almost anything as long as we paid for it!

LJ

[seafuryfan]

Times change: I recently saw a very interesting talk on the DLP website (an AOCs forum, I think) by Sqn Ldr Steve McCann, presenting his view on Generation Y (for the military, read the present youth going through the training system and onto the front line). One point that came across was their need for credible answers to their frustrations, and in a timely fashion. Another was how their world is a lot more connected by technology than ours used to be, and they use it to share their experiences, good and bad.

So they, and us old 'uns, use this forum to vent our frustrations. Let's face it, in the crewroom we share funny war stories and whinge about whatever. And this place, I think, is sort of the same.

It may also be that the forum attracts those wanting to discuss stuff that in the old days, just wouldn't have happened. There are also probably plenty of servicemen and women who don't use Pprune at all. Face**** entries from them are stuffed with snapshots of ironic humour and moans.

Bottom line: I sympathise somewhat with your view, but it's not a bad foil to oppose the offical line / RAF News.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

SRE,

If you find the views of current service folk so distasteful perhaps it's time to let go and fully embrace your life in civvy street :ok:

[blagger]

Where there is mass moaning and disgruntlement and change, in the chaos there's always opportunity for the canny!

[SRENNAPS]

Seldomfitforpurpose

That's the big, huge, massive point you miss. I speak to far more people in all 3 services, face to face, phone and by email in real life than I do here on Pprune. And to be quite frank they dont have the "views of current service folk" that is portrayed here.

My other half also directly works with all 3 services in a rather larger establishment and overall she does not see the doom and gloom that is reflected here.

Dare I say that many (and certainly not all ) people here on this website have nothing better to do than moan behind their keyboards instead of getting on with the positive of real life. Have a look at the post count to spot the really sad people!!

[Corporal Clott]

Well all of the stations/establishments I have been to over the past 12 months have been the same - pretty p!ssed off...

DE&S Abbey Wood, RAF Waddington, HQ DRA, MoD MB, HQ Air Command, RAF Odiham, RAF Honington, RAF Kinloss, RAF Leuchars, RAF Brize Norton.

I met far more people that represented the views reflected on here than not. You're not an AOC are you - you know the type that only meets the sycophants in the Mess for lunch and sees white kerb stones wherever you travel?

CPL Clott

[Admin_Guru]

Mate, if you left the military 4 years ago, you have no idea what it is like to have the job security that we have all taken for granted for decades taken away. Most people are now looking for the announcement in Mar 2012 that will announce whose job is on the line for next year a situation that gets repeated a further two times in the coming years. Every redundancy tranche that includes volunteers who do not get redundancy introduces hundreds of discontented people who spread their discontent like cancer over a long period of time whilst those who get volunteered for redundancy against their will do the same over 12 months. For sure, the atmosphere within the service has changed beyond belief in the last 4 years. The 'man up' tone of your post is born of ignorance whilst nobody denies that civvy street is sailing the same boat. Many posters here are passionate about preserving the positive attributes of service life almost all of which have been deleted. In the absence of a Union or general right to protest overtly in public, this forum is the relief valve whether you like it or not, and SFFP will always argue that as an ex serviceman (I prefer 'former' myself) you have no right to an opinion inside this forum. If you are a troll: :ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Seldomfitforpurpose



Dare I say that many (and certainly not all ) people here on this website have nothing better to do than moan behind their keyboards instead of getting on with the positive of real life. Have a look at the post count to spot the really sad people!!

Can you spot the irony in that :p

[SRENNAPS]

If you are a troll:

Well that made me Chuckle;):ok::ok:

Have a look at the dates of when we joined!!

I am desperately trying not to get into a personal slagging match here but, why do some of you think that because we left the mob a few years ago we have no idea what is going on!!

SFFP

Can you spot the irony in that

Oh Yes........

[ShyTorque]

Hey you military folk, stop whinging.

I stopped whinging about how bad the military was, years ago.

When I left, years ago. ;)

Let's face it, whinging is probably the only decent perk the military get these days :p

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Well that made me Chuckle;):ok::ok:

why do some of you think that because we left the mob a few years ago we have no idea what is going on!!


Why do you think that having left the mob a few years ago you are right :confused:

First tranche of RAF redundancies saw that of the thousand or so required around 50% were volunteers, sort of says it all really :ok:

[Admin_Guru]

why do some of you think that because we left the mob a few years ago we have no idea what is going on!!

If you were still in, and not a spectator, you would not have made the original post as you would know exactly how much heartache there is on all levels of service life. Would you tell the baby pilots chopped just before their wings flight that all is well?

Take my own situation. I did not feature in the trawl list for redundancy; no issues there, but I did see some frankly bizarre decisions made concerning compulsory redundancies in addition to both students and first tourists whose whole life had been structured to meet the entry demands of their chosen service and career removed (badly) by Postman Pat of that fatefull day. The concetina effect of the changes in manpower is affecting me directly. Set aside 'people' and view 'capability' instead and the loss of elements of airpower in recent times is bad news for everybody not least of which civilian defence industry. If we were invited to a cat fight in the South Atlantic or Norway we would lose, because we have become too Afghancentric. A letter to Parliament (as I do not just bleat on Pprune!) was met with spin from Liam Fox about now to 2015 restructuring (read butchering) followed by 2015-2020 restoration of capability. I think he is confusing the Armed Forces with a bloater on a fitness bender. No personal slagging matches from me; you are entitled to the rosy specs and it may well be that those with whome you communicate are happy chappies, but I put money on the people at manning getting a bit fed up of listening to a (PVR) bell ringing all day.

[SRENNAPS]

Why do you think that having left the mob a few years ago you are right


ehmmm, cause sometimes I think I have never actually left. Do you really think there is a difference on my perception of attitude because I wear civvies or a uniform? You really are not that special you know. Let me remind you:

I speak to far more people in all 3 services, face to face, phone and by email in real life than I do here on PPRuNe


Kreuger flap

Martin, pprune isn't real. It's just a chat forum. Don't get so stressed

Yes I know you are so right......I just cant help it sometimes;);)

one about the fitness test that will get everyone going.

...........now dont get me started:E:E

Hey I am just after the hits....thats what many do here, right????

450 views and 16 replys in just over two hours, well happy with that........not that I have changed my opinion.............

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

ehmmm, cause sometimes I think I have never actually left. Do you really think there is a difference on my perception of attitude because I wear civvies or a uniform? You really are not that special you know. Let me remind you:

[quote]I speak to far more people in all 3 services, face to face, phone and by email in real life than I do here on PPRuNe[/quote


So therefore you are right and everyone else is wrong, little arrogant wouldn't you think?

Just to remind you in the first trench about 50% of those selected were volunteers with some suggestion that many others who volunteered didn't get it, so do you still think everything is rosy in the garden :confused:

[SRENNAPS]

SFFP

Look mate I am not looking for a deep and meaning full argument with you. Truth be know I have always enjoyed your posts and agree with you in just about all occasions …..respect!!

The simple matter is that the military are not really being as hard done by as they would like to think they are....and that is the point I am trying to make.

Just to remind you in the first trench about 50% of those selected were volunteers with some suggestion that many others who volunteered didn't get it, still think everything is rosy in the garden

I work for a defence type company. We have just had a redundancy of 200 out of 800. The truth is that over 300 applied for voluntary redundancy. 100 got it and 100 got compulsory. Almost 100 have since resigned. Everybody is pissed off and it is lack of leadership (not management) that is the problem.

My suggestion is that true leadership shows positive-ness and not doom and gloom.

I don’t see a lot of that on this webb site??

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

SFFP

The simple matter is that the military are not really being as hard done by as they would like to think they are....and that is the point I am trying to make.

I don’t see a lot of that on this webb site??

Could not agree more on both points :ok:

Problem is that there are only so many ways for a boss to try to disguise the "cup of cold sick" that many of his/her people are currently facing.

I am as a happy as a sand boy with my lot, I genuinely am, for a whole host of reasons I won't go into on here but I know from my daily dealings that many others are not in the same boat.

[Pontius]

Enough of the serious stuff; I just want to know what a 'half glass' is. Surely a glass, while being half the size of another, is still a whole glass.

Okay, light-hearted moment over, crack on filosofists :ok:

[The Old Fat One]

OP

There are two issues here (leaving aside any discussion on who uses internet forums and why)

One, the real or perceived state of armed forces moral currently.

Two, the comparison with life (specifically economic circumstance) outside.

It seems quite clear that moral as an absolute has taken a hit over the past two years and in that respect pprune has probably bent towards the reality of overall service opinion.

On the other hand, the economic (and other) benefits or service life have improved relative to the outside world, especially in the most important of all area of pensions.

Lot of service folk on here rightly disgruntled with what has happened to the military in recent history...and who can blame them?

On the other hand any service folk on here whinging about here pay, conditions and pensions, do not have a very firm grip on reality (and are in for the most massive shock when they leave).

PS

Here is weird pprune thing. I agree with most of what the OP has written and also most of what SFFP has written, and yet here they are having a pop at each other???

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I can assure you there have been no pops from this end :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

I don't think the moral values have changed at all :)

Morale on the other hand will have changed. It is all a matter of managing expectations. The cut for 135,000 to 98,000 was just as painful. The loss of all the old transport types in the 60s was as painful as was the loss of TSR2 and F111 and the Javelin.

There subsequent replacement with new types, C130, VC10, Lightning, F4, Buccaneer and Jaguar addressed the issues for a time but not of course for those aircrew and engineers wedded firmly to the obsolete types.

A big issue was the lack of communication. Of course overseas things were even slower as often the only news came days later by newspaper as wireless was also rarer than a 3D-TV.

Managing expectations remains the key issue. Things then were in drawdown and decline. Things now are in drawdown and decline. Jam tomorrow will not satisfy those that have no cake today. Is there a solution? Not really.

[Whenurhappy]

There is clearly a Curet's Egg out there - good in parts.

I met a young, twice injured Capt of the Parachute Regt on a commercial flight a couple of months ago (and has jsut recevied a gallantry award). Top bloke, increadily positive, increadibly inspirational, and I don't imagine he's hanging around the Bn Ops Room whinging on about CEA, LOA etc etc - because he is having the time of his life - at the prime of his life, albeit with a pronounced limp.

Meanwhile, when I was back in MB a couple of weeks ago escorting a foreign delegation, I was struck how miserable everyone was. The expression that several staff officers who I know used was 'There's no good news'.

And both parties are right. If you joined for fighting, charging stark naked at the enemy (read: Marines) and delivering a world of hurt on to bad guys, well, this is the hour. However, for many of us, the cruel realities of blunted aspirations, plateaued careers, an asinine promotion system, a shrinking pay packet (in real terms) and strategic decisions that seem to defy logic, well, no wonder so many of us are pissed off. We also see the financial services industry (which I plan to join) causing massive economic upheaval - and having a direct impact on our operational capability - but still offering 6-figure salaries for new - and often quite mediocre - staff.

SRENNAPS, I think I understand where you are coming from, but in my 25+ years with an increadibly broad experience across the Services, HMG and wider (if I say so myself), I have never seen morale so bad. Ironic really, given that we are at war. Ironic, because usually in wartime morale is boosted - unified - because of a common threat. We now have many threats - internal and external.

[Admin_Guru]

If you have seen the video/DVD "Failing Aviator" you may recall that military aviators being a breed used to routine (SOPs) do not appreciate change on a good day even if they understand the logic behind it.

Therefore logic would suggest that a period of managerial turbulence is an aviators nightmare. Uncertainty is any thinking mans nightmare. Pprune is an aviators forum and the response and tone of conversation here is/was predictable. I do struggle to accept that even Handbrake House occupants are 'happy' in this day and age, especially as the recent round of CS redundancies appeared to have many parallels with the military staff redundancies.

The youngsters are often heard to respond the whinges with "We do not now anything different" which is of course understandable; however even they do not have any job security nor incoming loyalty, both of which have been sufficient for a great many over the years to put their lives on the line.

Perhaps it might be a good time for the OP to steer the thread with what he believes in 'good' about military life in the 21st century. The pension I grant you is worthwhile if not generous when compared to the majority of society. Pay, allowances and pension are pants compared to Civil Service and the Police in particular. Retire on full pension at age 50; yes please. ....and I have just completed a detachment in which I had to pay to attend (PAYD & Messing fees), what is all that about?

[Red Line Entry]

Pontius,

The Treasury view is that they have no opinion on whether Defence's glass is half full or half empty.

However, they take it as proof that Defence has wasted more money by purchasing a drinking container that is twice as large as it needs to be.

[Pontius Navigator]

Adnin Guru, very true. We have had continual change all the time.

Perhaps a more worrying indicator is the stick at the top of the forum. Only 3 wanabee posts in 3 month, the last 12th Sep and not answered. Suggests things outside are not comletely dire and inside . . .

[OldnDaft]

We need to put the morale issue in perspective - those who are unhappy always make more noise than those who are content. An interesting stat could be to identify those who actually applied from the list of eligible personnel - it could be a more useful gauge of the strength of feeling. After all not every eligible individual applied so one could deduce that not all pers are desperate to leave. The RAF is significantly different to the organisation I joined, but is it still a good life? Yes, and the opportunities to do things not available in civvy street are numerous (Sport, AT, FD etc etc).

[AGS Man]

I have to admit that since I left 22 years ago and took the Kings Riyal I have lost touch with most aspects of Service life although I find this Forum very interesting in hearing the current views, good and bad. One point I would make is that when I left personnel strength would have filled Wembley Stadium (with a waiting list for spare tickets), now it would not even fill White Hart Lane!

[Yozzer]

Yes, and the opportunities to do things not available in civvy street are numerous (Sport, AT, FD etc etc).

Change that for accuracy to:

FP-CCS-RAFFT-Deploy-RSOI-PODL-start again.........

People with a mortgage to service or are wearing the pension leg iron (timing) or have debts to pay will not volunteer for unemployment but may well be royally hacked off (and vocal) in the meantime. I have heard too often of late "Be thankfull you have a job".

[Wrathmonk]

SRENNAPS

I'm guessing you really enjoyed your time 'in'. So, purely out of curiosity, why did you leave at 46 (assuming your profile age is correct) to seek a career outside?

You do make some valid points regarding the apparent down beat view aired on this board - but lets be honest everyone loves a good moan!!!.

PS - Have you seen this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8754601/Morale-in-armed-forces-plunges-to-new-low.html) news report?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Yoz,

The thing is that when looked at in context with what is happening all around them service men and women should be thankful they have a job.

The point that a few folk, almost all ex service folk it would appear, seem to fail to grasp is that there is huge gulf between having a job and being happy in the job you have.

Just one brief example. I work alongside 3 outstanding individiuals who have pretty much sold their souls in search of promotion. They are at the top of their professional tree and have devoted hours and hours of their own time toward real and meaningful secondary duties both on and off station. Despite all that effort none of them were promoted last year, none of them expect to be promoted this year and none of them expect anything to change anytime soon.

The three of them are happy go lucky stoical individuals who fully understand what is going on all around them but manage those expectations if you will when the reality is that promotion has pretty much stopped in some trade/areas/types.

Thats just one tiny example of where some of the old and bold who have long gone are missing the point. It matters not how many phone calls you make or who your wife works with the facts are that there are a lot of unhappy folk about and it matters not what level the glass is at the roses are not very red at this time.

[Pontius Navigator]

Despite all that effort none of them were promoted last year, none of them expect to be promoted this year and none of them expect anything to change anytime soon.

While I would not disagree with a word you say, just years ago promotion was the aspiration of very few. Unless you went to Cranwell your career stopped at flt lt and ended at 38; some didn't make flt lt. Only those Cranwell flt lts that were unlucky enough to have a poor ADC tour stuck at flt lt.

That all changed with overborne sqn ldrs in the early 70s and the single list. Now, particularly in the gnd branches sqn ldr is an aspiration and potentially open to all. So once again you have the issue of management of expectation. In the 60s, no expectation, from the 70s expectation.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

PN,

In my 37 years promotion has always been the aspiration of the many many folk but only ever been the realistic aspiration of the few.

At the moment the perception which often turns into reality are that many of those realistic few are going to miss out yet again due to lack of openings.

[Pontius Navigator]

SFFP, again true. My SiL was lucky and got picked up at #5 ahead of 1-4 which was lucky for him. It will take a while to settle down again. The SOs that retire or were retired will sooner or later be replaced (if not in the JFH or LRMP roles). Once the dust settles there will be a period of stability and improvement. This might take 2-3 years and last for oh, 6 months or so :)

[SRENNAPS]

All I can add is that I would suggest that all in all the Royal Air Force is still a good place to be for so many reasons that should be obvious.

There is nothing new in cuts and I have lost count of how many times over the years that the statements “we can’t cope”, “this round of cuts will break the camels back”, “morale has never been so low” have been made. Dam they were saying it in the seventies when we pulled out of the Far East (my old man also did nearly 30 years).

The point is that I see this website as an extension of a crewroom, and when you had some barrack room lawyer spouting doom and gloom all of the time in your crewroom, he could have a devastating effect on the morale of your shift or even the entire Sqn if he was left untouched. Sadly I see too many instances of that here on this website.

If I can be honest I think the doom and gloom mentality is a problem in this country, not just in the Armed Forces. Maybe it is because too many people watch “Eastenders” or read scandal after scandal in trashy newspapers. I don’t know what the answer is, but I do think we are going horribly wrong somewhere as a country.

As an aside, on the topic of promotion, I remember an incident that occurred many, many years ago when secondary duties, etc became the new political correctness.
We had two Cpls on the Sqn. Same trade, about same age and about same seniority. Both were absolutely superb at their jobs and both were totally dedicated to the Sqn and the RAF. One was married to a wife that did not work and had two young children. The other was married to a serving member. One dedicated his spare time to his kids and as they were not that rich, sometimes struggled to make end meat. The other spent most of his spare time participating in adventure sports and other recreational duties that could cost quite a bit of money.

During assessment time, one of them got a Spec Rec and one of them got a High Rec. Can you guess which one got the Spec Rec and was subsequently promoted when posted from the Sqn?????

I tried to intervene but was told to wind my neck in as so called secondary duties and extra curricular activities took precedence over everything else in the assessment process at that time.
Yes, that decision had an impact on the morale of one of the Cpls. I also suspect that, unwittingly, that practice still goes on.

[Jayand]

Unwittingly? of course it still goes on and in many cases isn't even well hidden.
If you are not seen regularly at the Sqn beercalls/mess doos or don't stay late after your shift to talk shop you are looked down upon (have seen them all)

Srennaps I think you are wrong about your perception, you talk to more people daily in the service than you do on here, so do we, I talk every day to Servicemen and women, my colleagues! and trust me in nearly quarter of a century it has never been nearly so bad.
I remember being young and hearing all the oldies moaning in the crewroom and I used to think just leave and do us all a favour.
Now the youngsters are just as vocal as us oldies, every perk is squeezed or stopped, overseas postings gone, dets few and far between with capped, receipted actuals taking the fun from them anyway.
Threats of redundancy, lack of genuine career oportunities, signing on beyond option point? maybe! promotion? maybe in a few years!
And a decade and more of pointless involvement in two wars in the middle East that people can't see an end to (despite what the PM says) and little if any progress made. people fight wars willingly when they believe in the cause, when they don't a decade starts to grip!
It might not be all green and rosey on the outside but it's so dark over here that people are willing to give it a go if only for a change.
Lots of those that did not apply for redundancy didn't do so because they are scared of getting a new job not just because they are happy with the one they have.
I understand what your saying, listening to negative comments is tiresome and hearing positive ones would be great, but right now the majority of us don't have many positives to talk about.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

During assessment time, one of them got a Spec Rec and one of them got a High Rec. Can you guess which one got the Spec Rec and was subsequently promoted when posted from the Sqn?????

I tried to intervene but was told to wind my neck in as so called secondary duties and extra curricular activities took precedence over everything else in the assessment process at that time.
Yes, that decision had an impact on the morale of one of the Cpls. I also suspect that, unwittingly, that practice still goes on.


Nothing unwittingly about it.

I genuinely mean no disrespect here but you and I must have been in a different RAF as for the past 37 years a prominent secondary duty has always been the way to get ahead of your peers.

The Spec rec/High rec scenario you offer has the right and proper outcome, in fact the guy who simply went home to his family was probably over assessed.

I am not saying it is right as its anything but right but it was ever thus. Who of us here does not know of a complete numpty who has been promoted on the back of a royal flush of secondary duties while the professional star with none misses out.

[Yozzer]

I never before thought that the words "family man" in an OJAR was a bad thing; but now I am reassessing that theory in case P/Boards read between the lines and have a differing perception to my own. If we only promote NATO potatoes..... mmmm, the world is becoming much clearer :{

[Biggus]

SRENNAPS,

A few observations:

You start off by saying something to the effect that "just about every other thread on "Military Aircrew" is total doom and gloom", which of course is incorrect - a good start to your argument.

The front page of the Miltary Aircrew section offers me a choice of 25 threads, ranging from news (Iraq to buy F-16s), historical information (a question on U-2s), technical queries (TCAS), etc. Only a small proportion of those 25, maybe 4 or 5 at the moment, could be considered "doom and gloom". Yes, thats up to 20%, but they reflect the "doom and gloom" situation currently going on within the UK military. "Doom and gloom" is a current topic.....

We have:

Pay freeze for 2 years, with inflation at about 5% that represents about a 10% pay cut.

Redundancies, voluntary or compulsory. (I know an NCO made compulsory redundant who will leave having served 21.5 years, no immediate pension for him. Why don't you have a chat with him to see if he thinks everything is rosy?)

Getting rid of people who haven't even finished training.

Axing of entire fleets/capabilities - Harrier, MPA, etc

Changes to terms, conditions, allowances, pensions all happening or about to...

etc, etc


All of which are not great for building morale. Yes, there have been cuts in the past, but not on this scale. We are losing entire capabilities, "sacking" people who are still in training, etc...

Having said all that, many people you consider to be all doom and gloom aren't whinging on pprune - they are simply telling it like it is. If you don't like the message don't shoot the messenger!

As for your comment about true leadership showing "positiveness rather than doom and gloom", that obviously shows how naive and out of touch you are - WE DON'T HAVE LEADERS ANY MORE, WE HAVE MANAGERS!!! We are becoming/adopting business approaches/yuckspeak/health and safety/regulations, etc

Yes, these sort of things (cutbacks and redundancies) are happening in outside industry, we aren't special in that respect. However, if they have relevant websites for their firms I'm sure these issues are being discussed on them in the same way they are being discussed here.

The fact that morale is low appears to be being recognized by our own chain of command:

Morale in armed forces plunges to new low - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8754601/Morale-in-armed-forces-plunges-to-new-low.html)

so why don't you accept that it might actually be how some/many in the military feel?


Considering all that is going on in the military (go and have a chat to the people at Kinloss - if you can find any in the ghost town), I think many of the comments on pprune remain remarkedly upbeat!


Finally, the classic response, if you don't like what you are reading, don't read it!


Edited to add a final comment:

You also seem to state/imply at one point that high post count = sad git. Well, I may not have been living in a shoe box in the middle of the road but, no doubt like many pprune contributors, I used to spend a lot of time in sandy places. If I wasn't flying there were only really 3 things to do:

Eat
Go to the gym
Use the internet

The majority of my posts were clocked up in sandy places, does that make me a sad git?

[The Old Fat One]

Moral....my bad sp!!:ugh::ugh:

I'm guessing you really enjoyed your time 'in'. So, purely out of curiosity, why did you leave at 46 (assuming your profile age is correct) to seek a career outside

For my part, I did 27 years and left at 47. Loved it...absolutely loved it!!. I don't miss it (I miss the people though, big time!).

Why did I leave? Simples...life is too short to only do one job. Tiny push factor...too many REMFs allowed to treat frontline operational aircrew like schoolkids.

Other than that...it was awesome :ok::D:)

[goudie]

Reading this thread makes me thankful that I did my 20 years when I did and sad for the apparent state of affairs today and for the guys and girls serving.

Three tours, jollys, detachments, comradeship etc. outweighed all the crappy bits............ and there were quite a few!
Why 20 years? In '74, too many chiefs....... I took the money and went quietly. Had a whole new career for another 20 odd years.

[Wwyvern]

SRENNAPS

Why do people like you think that RAF redundencies are recent? I remember people like me serving on loan service in the Royal Malaysian Air Force in the period 1965 -68 considering the then-recent redundency offer.

Get yer knees brown, son.

[foldingwings]

SRENNAPS,

My opinion is that a lot of the posts on this website do not reflect the true opinion of the majority serving in the RAF

That is surely a very true statement!

If we were able to analyse the contributors on PPPRuNe Military, I think we would find that the majority of the people who post on here are either: retired; wannabes; stirrers; civvies; journos; or current but not active (if they were active they would not have the time or facilities to constantly contribute).

Therefore, I suspect that the inactive find themselves sidelined in their Service and, consequently, do nothing but winge!

I fall into the first category having retired 4 years ago and in my 40-year RAF career have seen countless of the inactive wingers from all branches and trades moaning their way through their dormant RAF careers! Nothing changes!

Foldie;)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

SRENNAPS,



(if they were active they would not have the time or facilities to constantly contribute).



A couple of years since I was last there but Internet was available pretty much 24/7 in many locations in the very busy sandy places so maybe this is another example of a statement from someone old and bold who is not as in touch as they would like to think they are :ok:

[Jayand]

SFFP you are correct, the dusty place has never been so well connected!

[SOSL]

Well done srennaps. 48 replies. But there is quite a lot of more important stuff going on isn't there? :bored:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

SFFP you are correct, the dusty place has never been so well connected!

That's the problem, folk who have been out for a while are simply not up to date and therefore prone to incorrect assumptions.

[Airborne Aircrew]

folk who have been out for a while simply are not up to date and therefore prone to incorrect assumptions. One could respond that those who are still in are so insulated from the rest of the world that they think they are the only ones who know what is going on. I talk to people all the time in Afghanistan or their parents, brothers, sisters etc. I'm well aware of how connected they are. But I've only been out 23 years... I have no clue what they can or can't do in terms of communications do I?

Before you start asking aircrew related questions to prove my statements above - I talk to Rocks and their families. They're no less connected but often are less judgmental of those who served before.:p

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Before you start asking aircrew related questions to prove my statements above

One could respond that those who are still serving are bound to have an all round better picture of the current service situation. The incorrect assumptions as displayed on here and your reluctance to take questions merely confirm that.

No insult intended just making my point, folk who are out as not always as informed as they would like to think they are :ok:

[NutLoose]

goudie (http://www.pprune.org/members/146481-goudie)

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South of Old Warden
Age: 74
Posts: 595


Reading this thread makes me thankful that I did my 20 years when I did and sad for the apparent state of affairs today and for the guys and girls serving.

Three tours, jollys, detachments, comradeship etc. outweighed all the crappy bits............ and there were quite a few!
Why 20 years? In '74, too many chiefs....... I took the money and went quietly. Had a whole new career for another 20 odd years.


It reminded me of a seal cull at the time, those fit and strong got away, those weak and useless stayed....... :E

[Airborne Aircrew]

No insult intended just making my point, folk who are out as not always as informed as they would like to think they are :ok:

None taken, just trying to point out that the sword can cut both ways... :ok:

[ralphmalph]

Whenurhappy,

I met a young, twice injured Capt of the Parachute Regt on a commercial flight a couple of months ago (and has jsut recevied a gallantry award). Top bloke, increadily positive, increadibly inspirational, and I don't imagine he's hanging around the Bn Ops Room whinging on about CEA, LOA etc etc - because he is having the time of his life - at the prime of his life, albeit with a pronounced limp.

Meanwhile, when I was back in MB a couple of weeks ago escorting a foreign delegation, I was struck how miserable everyone was. The expression that several staff officers who I know used was 'There's no good news'.

And both parties are right. If you joined for fighting, charging stark naked at the enemy (read: Marines) and delivering a world of hurt on to bad guys, well, this is the hour. However, for many of us, the cruel realities of blunted aspirations, plateaued careers, an asinine promotion system, a shrinking pay packet (in real terms) and strategic decisions that seem to defy logic, well, no wonder so many of us are pissed off. We also see the financial services industry (which I plan to join) causing massive economic upheaval - and having a direct impact on our operational capability - but still offering 6-figure salaries for new - and often quite mediocre - staff.

Your post is smack on. I love my flying and the opportunities it offers. When I am away I am operating exactly the way I would wish to (I would have died if I were around in the cold war days!) People are doing the do.

At the same time, when I am home there is so much erosion of anything that is not essential to Ops that it is only a matter of time before any man gets fed up!

Ralph

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Whenurhappy,

Your post is smack on. I love my flying and the opportunities it offers. When I am away I am operating exactly the way I would wish to (I would have died if I were around in the cold war days!) People are doing the do.

At the same time, when I am home there is so much erosion of anything that is not essential to Ops that it is only a matter of time before any man gets fed up!

Ralph

Absolutely spot on and almost to a man/women this attitude applies to everyone I work with. Trouble is to understand that you have to be living it :ok:

[Whenurhappy]

Ralph,

You, too, have hit the nail on the head. About 3 years ago the Air Staff conducted a study into operational effectiveness across a number of differing force elements (subsequently cited in the Haddon-Cave Report). I remember seeing some of the findings - in essence, morale (howsoever defined) was highest on the most operational units, in other words, guys and girls had few problems with operational deployments as it meant that went to do the job for real that was adequately resourced, without home base trivia. Those FE that weren’t on current high-end ops (at the time that included Kipper Fleet and the Sentry) morale was rock-bottom and came across, frankly, as a bunch of whingers (actually, in the case of the Nimrod Fleet, with just cause).

I understand that over 300 pers were interviewed and virtually no one, apparently, raised issues about pay, housing, medical care, leave…but were more concerned about the erosion of depth of professional knowledge, ie, the ‘can do’ attitude was causing problems because our pers lacked the depth and range of experience to know where corners could be cut – and where they shouldn’t (often because those corners had long been rounded off!).

Additionally, the study identified that there was no synchronisation or holism amongst the plethora of change programmes – in other words, each change programme (Eng practises, JPA, housing, WFM, TLCM etc etc) each carried risk – but this risk was additive across all programmes at point of delivery – whether than was on the hangar floor, in the cockpit or at someone’s work space. Clearly there were significant concerns raised about operational effectiveness, H&S (real stuff, not the risks posed by a bottle of correcting fluid) , Flight Safety etc and to its credit, AIR did take the findings seriously and commenced a programme to address this accumulated risk.

I would add the comment (at risk of another flurry of indignation) that the rate and extent of change across the Services is virtually unprecedented in the post-war era. I visited an RAF station recently and I hardly recognised the place. Not only has everything been renamed and services remartialed, purplised, or simply done away with, the atmosphere was completely different. CCS/GDT or whatever it has been called now, is a hard-hitting, warts and all briefing. Gone are the days of (faintly rediculous) first aid scenarios of finding someone who has fallen off a ladder or electrocuted themselves in an office. Now it's - are you under fire? Yes - fight and win the fire fight. Any pulse? No - leave them - fight the fight etc. Now its also advice for personnel to consider sperm-banking in case of/anticipation of IED-induced groin injuries. Add to that the threat of widesread further redundancies and massive capability reductions and you have Service that has ceased to be stoic, but uses the means available - social media etc - to express very real and justiified concerns. This is not RAF Gutersloh in the 1980s, or RAF Little Barking on the Wold in 1973. It is not even an RAF station in 2000.

WP

[SRENNAPS]

Wwyvern

Why do people like you think that RAF redundencies are recent? I remember people like me serving on loan service in the Royal Malaysian Air Force in the period 1965 -68 considering the then-recent redundency offer.

Get yer knees brown, son.


Not certain why you come to that conclusion. Maybe you misread my post at number 38.

There is nothing new in cuts and I have lost count of how many times over the years that the statements “we can’t cope”, “this round of cuts will break the camels back”, “morale has never been so low” have been made. Dam they were saying it in the seventies when we pulled out of the Far East (my old man also did nearly 30 years).

In fact my old man came out in the 70s redundancy and his morale (like many others at the time) was rock bottom which was in stark contrast to my morale when I came out. My old man also severed in Aden in the sixties. He was injured in a grenade attack in which two others were killed. It was not reported on the news and my mother only got to hear about it several days after the event.

Biggus

(I know an NCO made compulsory redundant who will leave having served 21.5 years, no immediate pension for him. Why don't you have a chat with him to see if he thinks everything is rosy?)

If that is true then it is despicable. I would have thought that he would have got an IP of 21.5/22s. Or did that rule change in the small print of the new pension scheme.

All,

As for the rest of the comments I still really have nothing further to add other than I find I find some of them truly sad and quite disturbing. I only hope that you vent your frustrations and feelings openly to your seniors and not just round the back of the crewroom or behind the safety of your monitor and keyboard.

I sincerely apologise if I have offended anybody with this thread, that was never the intent.

Maybe I have underestimated the state of morale in the RAF as reflected here and maybe many people I talk (both friends from past experience or workers contacted through my line of work) are just fibbing to me and they are actually totally hacked off themselves and all about to PVR if they don’t get redundancy. Funny though, they really do not give me that impression and I genuinely believe that.

Sadly this weekend I was informed that a very good friend of mine (we served together in Germany for many years) was recently killed in a road traffic accident. He was a very popular fellow on the Sqn and I already know that many, still serving and ex serving members will be attending his funeral. I have no doubts that the wake will be one massive pi$$ up to celebrate his wonderful but sadly shortened life and I have no doubt that we will talk about the old times and modern times of the RAF. In a sad way I look forward to it.

[foldingwings]

That's the problem, folk who have been out for a while are simply not up to date and therefore prone to incorrect assumptions.

OK, I accept that so will amend my statement to:

(if they were active they should not have the time or facilities to constantly contribute).

Foldie:ok:

PS. By the way, 4 years isn't 'a while' and I have done my share with equal and available internet connections.

PPS. Idle hands are the devil's tools!

[Widger]

SRENNAP,

Both you and others on here raise some good points and it is pleasing to see it has stimulated such debate. I left only this year after 26 years and I thought that the way I felt was the way everyone felt at that stage of their career. However, speaking to others who served in the Ivory Tower in previous years, they all said, that when they were in the seat, they spent their time bringing capabilities into service, whilst having to flex a bit of money here and there. In my relatively short time, I witnessed cut after cut, of not just large capability items like MRA4, Type 22 etc but also a whole host of enabling capabilities, with one aim and one aim only, to save money and try and reduce the tens of billions of pounds in the black hole.

It was frustrating on a daily basis to see decisions made, that took away equipment, services, benefits etc that would make the lives of those serving on the frontline and behind it, a whole lot better. That is why any trip round that building will be met with glum faces, because, despite the acrimony many of the Staff Officers receive, of being 'shiny a*** paper shufflers' most of them have extensive military experience, often having returned back from places like the Stan wanting to do the best for the Sailor, Soldier or Airman on the frontline and cannot, despite their best efforts, add value.

What must be remembered of course, is that the Military is NOT like any other business and so it is inappropriate to make comments such as 'lots of businesses are going through redundancy' etc. The Military is the nations insurance policy and when you start cutting back on your premiums to save the household budget, don't start complaining when you cannot repair the fire or flood damage.

I left on good terms, had a great 26 years and am comfortable in my new job. I feel incredibly sad for those who are not pensionable and will not even get a gratuity after such long service and loyalty. I still have MANY friends left in all 3 services and, with a few exceptions (mostly young whippersnappers), most are looking to get out or cannot because of factors like the kids being at boarding school. I jumped before I was pushed, wanting to be master of my own destiny.

[goudie]

In the mid '60's the Services were probably at their postwar height, in terms of manpower and equipment and yet the UK, under a Labour Government (Wilson) was practically broke i.e the pound was devalued by 15%. What puzzles me is, how was it all paid for then?

[Bladdered]

Well we are all going to die in a month when Comet Elinen impacts the earth - Video: Comet Elinen Asteroid Alert August 2011 (http://theendingworld.com/2011/06/30/video-comet-elinen-asteroid-alert-august-2011/)

Tongue in cheek, I personally have never been happier - but then I left 5 years ago yesterday :}

And this blog is even chirpier

Elenin (http://elenin.org/)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

OK, I accept that so will amend my statement to:

(if they were active they should not have the time or facilities to constantly contribute).

Foldie:ok:

PS. By the way, 4 years isn't 'a while' and I have done my share with equal and available internet connections.

PPS. Idle hands are the devil's tools!

Foldie,

No insult intended, it was just that on my last time there despite a very very busy flying prog I was still able to regularly bait the hook for a very angry antipodean who was dreading the inevitable Lewis Hamilton F1 drivers title win :ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Tongue in cheek, I personally have never been happier - but then I left 5 years ago yesterday :}



Tongue also in cheek, but if you are that happy with life outside the military what are you doing in here :ok:

[The Old Fat One]

Winding you up??

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

TOFO,

See that smiley thing, big clue Mr Sensitive :p:p:p

[Wrathmonk]

What puzzles me is, how was it all paid for then

Who says we've paid for it yet? We only paid off our WW2 debts to our allies in 2006 (see here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6215847.stm));)

[foldingwings]

We only paid off our WW2 debts to our allies in 2006

Having already paid part of the bill to regenerate Germany & Japan after WW2!

No wonder we're broke!

Foldie:ugh:

PS. But it WAS Gordon Brown's fault really!

[threeputt]

Quiet afternoon in the courts today Mr wings that fold?

3P:ok:

[[email protected]]

Whenurhappy has it right - it is the unprecedented rate of change that hacks people off - TOFO said Tiny push factor...too many REMFs allowed to treat frontline operational aircrew like schoolkids. that is what is happening more and more.

What our 'leadership' has significantly failed to do is ensure that such changes happen in a cohesive manner such that they enhance operational effectiveness rather than encumber those on the front-line trying to do their job.

When major changes to orders are sanctioned (Fly 000 series for example) wouldn't it be great if they were proof-read first and given to Gps ahead of release so that Gp orders and all those subservient to them could be adjusted - then we might not have Gps playing catch-up, confusing conflictions between sets of orders and information that used to be all in one place (Low Flying Handbook for example) spread across different tomes. Please tell me how this process has enhanced Flight Safety or operational effectiveness!

I am monstrously p8ssed off at what is happening in the RAF and I have one of the best jobs in it as a SAR boy - what those who are less fortunate must be feeling is probably a good indicator of why there were so many volunteers for redundancy.

I am sure the RAF is supposed to be about flying and I am even more sure that my PA status stands for professional aviator not professional administrator:ugh:

[foldingwings]

Herr Drei Putt!

What with my extensive tour of Eastern Europe and a golfing adventure in the Norff East, I haven't dished out justice for about 6 weeks and won't for another 2! So one has to pass one's time some how!

Has your team's golf picked up recently!

Foldie:D