Feeling valued in the RAF / Army / Navy

[JliderPilot]

Submitted my PVR a few months ago (after 21.5 years in) and interested if anyone in the same boat was asked by their Boss or Manning why they wanted to go? My experience was that no one asked me why I am leaving or tried to talk me out of it, which is surprising I think. Would that happen in a similar sized civilian company? There is a little JPA survey after you press the button though.:ugh:

Is it true that 'the management' do not really care about us, are we are just numbers on a spread sheet that they have to juggle about and when we PVR they find it hard to fill in all the boxes.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Yes, PVR or time served irrespective of how important we think we may be none of us is irreplaceable, no one cares if we turn left or right the last time you leave the station and within a couple of days no one will notice we have gone.

This is not exclusive to the military either as people come and go in all walks of life and people simply adjust.

[Geehovah]

After nearly 37 years service I was a tad disappointed, albeit I was retiring on time. I should say, having served twice in the US where retirement is a big event, maybe my expectations were unrealistic.

The resettlement package was excellent and gave me exactly what I asked for. A big tick for all involved.

The clearing process was impersonal and the final "That's it Sir, if I could have your ID card" was quite stark.

Shame I didn't get a departure interview, so no chance to air my views. The expected call for a chat during my terminal leave just never came. It would have been nice if my Commander had bothered to attend my Dining Out Night - and that of the other long serving colleague on the same night. At least the late Commander of Air Command sent me a letter. I was expecting the new-fangled valedictory E Mail so the letter came as a nice surprise.

The box ticking elements were mostly, efficient but the personal touch was sadly missing. Overall, I'd hoped for more but I suppose I got what I expected.

[spanish no fly]

Exactly the same 28 years ago.
Can't say "they" are not consistent!

[Whenurhappy]

When I suggested in MB a couple of years ago that I was planning to leave, the reaction was 'Oh, that's nice, can we help?' Unfortuantely, no one tried to talk me out of it...but I didn't leave, as it happens.

We PPruners have probably smirked and commented sarcastically at US promotion/CoC/retirement events. As I mentioned in another post, about a 1/3 of my career has been spent working with or working for US personnel - DOD and State department - including the latter very recently. They do make their people feel valued and they do ensure that families are made the centre of attention at these sometimes cheesy ceremonies. A couple of months ago I attended the formal farewell event of a USN Cdr. He was piped 'aboard', presented a folded US flag (having been passed along a line of his troops in a choreographed movement), farewelled by his boss, Padre said prayers and then piped 'ashore'. It was very moving even if his crew did look like extras from a Village People video (cue 'In the Navy...').

A couple of years ago I attended the 'pinning up' ceremony of a USAF Lt Col based in the UK. His daughter sang both National Anthems and a UK 2* presented and affixed his silver eagles. The event was tasteful, appropriate and memorable, especially for his family.

In my 26 years in uniform I have only received one letter of congratulation on promotion (from a fellow officer who was parenting me, congratulating me along the lines of 'I thought I'd write to you, because no other bu&&er will!) and all medals (albeit round ones) have been picked up from Gen Office or received in the post. Perhaps formed units/Sqns make a big thing of this, but for a majority of the RAF (I suspect) there is no formal recognition of these suignificant events in one's career (except for wearing the rank, taking the pay, bigger ulcers...). Even Dining Ins are increasingly becoming a brief affairs and the opportunity for Officers to have a word about their careers is generally limited to the senior departing guest ('Don't want to incur overtime - the contractors have to set up for breakfast...').

Junior ranks do not even have that opportunity; at least the WOs and SNCOs still have their Top Table lunches...I hope!

[jayteeto]

It might not be right, but when it all comes down to it, you ARE just a number. You volunteered, got paid reasonably well and (if you were like me) had a great time in the mob. You are choosing to leave early, that is your right. If you think anything otherwise, then you are dreaming. As it happens, I got a nice personal letter from the AOC, a man I have never met. I used it in my CV, so thanks very much! Otherwise I got EXACTLY what I expected after 24 years, a good financial package and ....................... memories. :ok:

[kaikohe76]

You were lucky, after my RAF service I did not get a Dining Out Night nor even an interview with Squadron or Station Commander. I just slipped under the radar I suppose. However, a couple of months ago while on holiday back in the UK, I attended one of my old Squadrons (46) annual reunion, absolutely wonderful weekend & great to see so many old faces again.

[Clockwork Mouse]

When I was attending an overseas Staff College many moons ago I only found out I had been promoted to major when I picked up an old copy of the Daily Telegraph with the promotions lists in it.

[The Old Fat One]

I'm not really allowed to agree with SFFP (because I'm not welcome here)...but what he said +1

Would that happen in a similar sized civilian company?

I left a company in 2007 which has 250 000 employees and in which I was doing exceptionally well. They couldn't give a toss.

Many moons ago a young man I read an article in Penthouse (my next door neighbour was a magazine distributor, so I had an endless supply of glossy totty). It has stayed with me to this day...we are all cogs in wheels. You may be a big cog; you may be a small cog, but you can always be replaced and as long as the wheel keeps turning, the wheel won't give a damn.

Maybe an odd place to find philosophy, but everything I've witnessed in my tender 54 years would back it up.

PS people who feel the need to belong to a "thing" and have that "thing" cherish them are often a tad insecure.

[Pontius Navigator]

I must admit to keeping some letters, one congratulating me on accelerated promotion and another on my result on the ISS course. Both by very senior officers and both unexpected.

My farewell letter OTOH was largely drafted by me as my boss said he would have to draft it for the AOC. When the Air Force was far larger and with more Groups etc the AOC knew who you were.

Now, pro rata, the number of officers serving under an AOC is probably fewer but I bet the AOCs don't know half of them.

At least when we had a meeting at Strike Chris Moran made time to come and visit and meet us all. We only found out later that he had just signed off our bonus recommendations - top bloke - RIP.

[Pontius Navigator]

Unfortuantely, no one tried to talk me out of it...

Which brings to mind the following conversation I was told about:

"Boss, can I have a word? I have decided to PVR."

"****, that is the best decision you have made."

[Whenurhappy]

Yes, we all know/knew that we are/were cogs in a large and often unforgiving machine, but it is important to consider the human element. Let's call it morale, espirit des corps, the organic structure. This is one of the reasons that many of us have stayed so long in the Services or have continued to maintain long friendships and actually look forward to attending reunions. Apart from university alumnii, there are few organisations that engender such loyalty amongst its staff. Anyone fancy going to a Tesco reunion?

[thefodfather]

Along the same lines as Clockwork Mouse's post. A few years ago I was lucky enough to get a state award but owing to the fact that I had been posted in the run up to Christmas the 2 Stn Cdr's couldn't decide who's job it was to tell about it. I was woken on the day the list came out over New Year to a text from a mate congratulating me on the MBE I'd received. Somewhat stunned, I phoned my old boss whose mobile number I still had to formally confirm it and then I ran out to grab a copy of the Telegraph. Said staishes were most apologetic when I got back to work.

Although when I left the RAF fairly recently, there was alot of interest from my management as to why I was leaving. PSF however told me not to let the door hit my a*** as I left the station.

[Jig Peter]

When told that one of his staff was irreplaceable, a US Army Colonel remarked that if you stuck your finger into an open jar of syrup, what happened to the resultant hole would show you what "irreplaceable" meant.
Very succinct and to the point ... pass the toast, please.

[Dan Winterland]

The highlight of my leaving was the watch handing back ceremony at stores, overseen by a very bored looking corporal.

[Tankertrashnav]

I once taught for a total of seven weeks at a major public school (covering for staff sickness).

At the end of my time they gave me a little dinner in the staff dining room, The Master (head) made a little farewell speech thanking me for stepping in at short notice, and they gave me a couple of very nice little going away presents (one of which still hangs on my wall). All after 7 weeks!

In stark contrast to the shameful way in which many on here have been treated on leaving the service.

[Pontius Navigator]

Jig, IIRC, this was said of Sir Wallace Kyle too. He thought that anyone taking more than 7 days leave was being disloyal (for the youngesters that meant Saturday to Friday).

Quite senior officers, wg cdrs, were then heard to mention the same thing in relation to a bucket of water. At least with honey you got to keep some.

[Pontius Navigator]

I reading a book at the moment called Frigate November. Hugely entertaining and outrageous in respect to authority in the first few chapters but developing into a first rate thesis on leadership and loyalty to one's troops. Some SOs could do well to read it and ensure that loyalty is a true two-way street.

[tucumseh]

The old adage about cogs and wheels may have been true years ago, but these days it is increasingly common to hear the huge graunching sound as the wheels grind to a halt, tearing the machine apart; only for new wheels to be reinvented instead of replacing the cog. Much of MoD is now manned by professional wheel-reinventors who don't know what a cog is.

It is what caused much of the £38Bn deficit, leading to yet another tranche of redundancies announced today.

[OldnDaft]

As a serving sneck, I must say that we still try to ensure we say appropriate farewells in our Mess be it on posting or retirement. It is one of the things (On a diminishing list sadly), that makes me feel a bit different to those employed in the civilian world. I take the point about cogs and wheels, but that was always the way wasn't it? No one person is more important than the organisation and one could argue that is the way it should be, but we should try to keep up our traditions alive where at all possible. As a former drafter (Career Manager in new money) I was deeply saddened by the removal of the "Blue Letter" when promotion came around. The abundance of information and ways to access same, allied to very little monetary benefit to promotion, has meant it is just not as special as it once was, but it could be with a little effort. The willingness to expend that effort is the key issue I feel. Just my tuppenceworth of course.

[diginagain]

Two abiding memories of leaving the Army; de-kitting at a non-aviation location while in possession of all of my clothing records, (hence suddenly acquiring a large amount of buckshee flying kit), and visting Middle Wallop to hand over my MOD90. The instructor who'd seen me through both grading and Basic Fixed Wing said good bye, and the clerk who took my card said I could have dropped it in the post.

[PlasticCabDriver]

In my final tour I drafted (for drafted read 'wrote so it could be cut and pasted') 4 valedictory letters for guys who were leaving. As such they were very personal, service details, couple of anecdotes, career highs that sort of thing. When mine came I was a bit disappointed, very generic, it rather smacked of a PA opening the valedictory letters folder, printing off the required number of letters and giving them to the 2* with his elevenses, "just the 4 letters today, Sir, shouldn't take long etc". Perhaps I expected too much. Having said that the Sqn Cdr couldn't wait to see the back of me so he was probably "too busy" that day.

[NutLoose]

Three abiding memories of leaving the RAF

Getting put on a VC10 VIP as my last act :ugh: managing to get it dragged out around the side of base on Sunday morning for a groundrun to re-establish the oils...... ( Only time you can do a run during the God Slot on Sunday was for operational reasons, Staishes orders, so as not to interupt Church ) cleared for brief low power run only... Having the thing up at 100% with the radio turned down so I could hardly here the frantic calls from Ops :E Lift to see OC Ops on Sunday and a promises of great poo.... telling him I am a Civilian Monday and smiling.... :p

Handing in some of my uniform as on reserve.. fellow off the section handing his in at the same time, but having no civvies with him, they left him with a shirt, trousers and the shoes he was wearing, walking up the road to where we had parked and him getting accosted by some officer for not wearing a beret, state of his uniform etc, him turning round and telling him to p**s off or similar..

Signing my own clearance chit with 4 or 5 different coloured pens.... :=

Ohh an redressing the AOC, but that's been mentioned already

[Wyler]

My leaving present was a very nice gratuity, a very nice pension, some great memories and some even greater mates.
When I put my PVR in I was treated as an adult i.e I had thought it through as a professional and knew what I was doing.

Did not feel the need for a cuddle, a chat or anyone to try and talk me out of it.

As to being valued when I was in:

Subsidised housing
Regular paycheck
Generous contract (16 yrs minimum)
Disturbance allowance
Fee medical/dental treatment
Admin support
Paid holidays
Paid sick leave
Free duty travel
Pension
Gratuity
Top quality social life
Travel
Great Training
Great jobs (some sucked but hey ho)

:ok:

[The Old Fat One]

Wyler

Top post.:ok:

[VinRouge]

You forgot, an extra large box of minge wipes and a community with a sense of humour!

[SOSL]

There were times when I felt valued and times when I didn't.

For the first:

Based at Leuchars, married local lass in Cupar. Guard of honour (included Wildpig (guys of my age will remember him) and several others). emerged from Guard of Honour, Leuchars pipe and drum band struck up - we hadn't a clue they would be there. We both felt valued.

Local Lass from Cupar died 2 weeks later. Took me 2 weeks to arrange funeral and sort my self out.

Back to work - in tray included two envelopes; one small and brown, one a bit bigger and blue.

Big one contained a handwritten note from ACM Sir David Evans (then C-in-C Strike) "So sorry to hear .. etc. If I or my staff can help you in any way please do not hesitate to let me know". STC in those days was about twice the size of the RAF as it is to day and I was only a Flt Lt (engineer) and not a pilot. I felt valued.

Small brown one contained a MOD F4a (Small memo) and my cheque to NONPAS for the hire of the wedding swords. Memo from HQSTC, NONPAS clk (Corpopral) read "There's nothing I can say Sir, but I don't think we need the enclosed cheque" I felt valued.

I still have all three bits of paper and I don't see any difference in importance between the ACM and the Cpl.

For the second:

I received a "Blue Letter" from C-in-C HQSTC, some time later, congratulating me on my promotion. I hadn't been promoted, it was a cock-up. I didn't feel valued.

I was promoted later.

SOS

[The Blue Parrot]

I cannot believe that I am in the minority. When promoted for the first time (on my own merits and not time based), I received no less than 4 letters. One from PMA congratulating me and informing me that my promotion would be promulgated, in due course, in the London Gazette, one from the Chief Engineer, One from my Stn Cdr and the last from my PTL. The second occasion, PMA again, COS Spt, my 2*, my 1* and my OF5, all with congratulations. As far as my 2 campaign medals (HERRICK and TELIC) are concerned, I was given the choice of "walk away with it now" or a presentation parade by Harry Staish with my family present. Now't wrong with that! :)

[Jumping_Jack]

Wow, you did well there BP. I found out the date of my last promotion by checking what date my pay increased on my Pay Statement! :hmm:

[Lima Juliet]

As an Air Defender it might surprise you that I should have had 5 gong presentation parades - I only had one (NATO FRY), the Afghan OSM, Iraqi GSM, UNPROFOR and QGJM all turned up in my Pigeon Hole with an ealstic band around them. Feel valued? - nope.

PVR'd recently. The one star did not drop to one knee and beg me to stay - nor would I have wanted him to. He did tell me that "I had made the right decision", though! One of the biggest reasons why I PVR'd was because I felt undervalued by the Service and Govt - not any particular person, just the subsequent "death by a thousand cuts" to pension, allowances, pay freezes, changes to CEA, JPA and not having the ability to help my own people (who also feel undervalued).

So I sorted myself out some employment on my own terms that I would enjoy, would fit with the family and I wouldn't give a stuff if I felt valued or not.

LJ:ok:

[D-IFF_ident]

The military is not a lifestyle, or even a career anymore. It's a job - just like any other job. Treat it that way and you won't be as disappointed.

[SOSL]

Served 10 months in Salalah, during the war (1974). Awarded 1964 pattern GSM with Dhofar Clasp. It arrived in the post, of course, because it was a "campaign medal" - not a meritorious award - anyone who was there would have got it.

[Monty77]

Wyler

Totally agreed with all you say, 'when we were in'.

Generous contract (16 years min) can be struck off the list.

Canning the pre-wings studes was a shocking loyalty reversal. Even back in the '90s during the 'Hold Generation' when kids could take 5 or 6 years to get to a squadron, there was never a hint that young men and women who had spent years working towards a goal would be laid off.

Don't care if you're an LAC or a Plt Off, the ground has been laid for legal contracts to be set in place.

I've already advised Monty Junior to avoid BritMil. As they used to say in NI, 'You play ball with us, and we'll shove the bat up your arse.'.

Sad all round. :sad:

[Canadian Break]

Wyler

Unless I have guessed wrong, you have omitted the fact that you spent a number of your years in eco-friendly working conditions, before underground housing became all the rage!

[Wyler]

Canook.

Absolutely nothing about my personal living conditions could ever be called eco friendly :E

Monty.

I agree and I see students being cast out within sight of the finish line every week. No re-selection, straight to civvy street. It is most definitely not fair. However, those who do make it across the line still, IMHO, get a pretty good deal.

[Canadian Break]

Wyler

I'm pretty sure the fish in the pool where XONK was the Boss would agree with you there!:D

CB

[Tabby Badger]

I'm surprised no-one mentioned the sentiment common through my career, especially in comparison with the whole American VA style of thing:

"They kick your arse and give you bus-fare"

If somebody did already mention it and I missed it, I plead KOKOS.

Anyway, after living here in the colonies for over 12 years now, knowing many US vets, I am still struck by the fact that in the US, you may leave the Service, but the Service doesn't leave you.

But the pension keeps me in beer and fags.

*gallic shrug*

[Charlie Time]

Wise words D-IFF Ident.

[jamesman]

Having been in for a sprightly 21 yrs and spent the first 3.5 yrs in old RAFG, where a full on 30 minute speech was granted for folks leaving the unit (with no comfort breaks I might add!) at Dinner Nights, it saddens me that next week I am giving a piece on an Army colleague with 37 yrs service and having been told 2 days ago to sort it out, I cannot give him the sort of thing I would have wished for.

I absolutely agree with previous sentiments that it is 9 -5 and off you go. Oh and expect a bill if you dont have all of your kit sorted. If you have the misfortune of leaving when posted in somewhere like shabbywood (fortunately not!) you would be lucky to have a coffee bought for you in Ash Neighbourhood at 1000hrs after how ever many years you have served.

I believe it is incumbent on those from the dark ages (like me already!) who are still around to try and ensure that guys who have done the time get at least an effort from others to ensure they leave the show with some decorum. Or am I a dinosaur??

[sidewayspeak]

Canning the pre-wings studes was a shocking loyalty reversal.

Hits the nail firmly on the head. :D

I would never recommend a military career to anybody now. Enticing the best of Britain's youth into the Service, then callously casting them aside is simply wrong. They should have been kept, and the waste taken from the top end. Indeed many, like me, would have been happy to go. It is a young man's game after all.