How important is university?

[Chunks]

Is it of any importance/advantage in getting a degree if you want a career as a pilot?

Thanks.

[Sagey]

I am not a pilot (yet, fingers crossed etc)

I am coming to an end of my degree and thought that maybe it would help if I said why I am doing a degree first.

I don't think a degree matters that much when applying for CEP, it certainly doesn;t when self funding. If u reach the criteria through A levels and impress answering the airline questions then I think u will get to the 1st round. A degree certainly won't do any harm though.

A degree is something to fall back upon though. You could fail to renew your medical etc and therefore IMO a degree can help you in finding other forms of employment if the unthinkable happens.

[expedite_climb]

Very.

I think it gave me the edge in the job hunting!

[johntrav69]

Depends on the job market, no good getting a degree if when you finish there are no jobs. Quite bouyant at the moment. Depending on your financial situation I would go for it if you have the money. However, Uni is great fun and some airlines like their pilots a bit older than 19-20. It also gives you a great fallback should it go wrong. (medical,poor job market, personal circumstances, the list goes on).

[Boss Raptor]

Left school at 17, got fed up with A Levels, was already learning to fly so found a first job in Operations with a small bizjet company at LHR...enabled me to learn the job and also working shifts so I had the time to continue flying...CPL at 20, Africa at 22...never looked back...

True,university may give you that edge in the sponsorship hunting stakes but once you have your licence and valid experience this fades in my experience (I employ staff on required experience plus attitude/character and not educational qualifications)...

A degree is not a pre-requisite to a flying and/or management career, there are always other routes if you are prepared to put in the work, effort and enthusiasm!

[AC-DC]

Boss Raptor
I think that you are talking about old attitudes of 15 years ago, things are not the same any more. In the States (to the best of my knowledge) one must have a degree in order to get a job in an Airline. The lack of the importance of education is very much a British phenomena, education seemed to be waste of time, the good news are that this attitude is changing.
Ten years ago the UK was third from the bottom of the education table of the EU while Germany and France were at the top, I don’t know the current situation.
I have arrived to the UK some 14 years ago. Back home, it is hard to get a job as a cashier in a Bank without a degree. In order to get a good possition you require to have Master’s degree. I know of people who studied for 3 degrees (either 2 BA and a MA or 1 BA and 2 MA) in order to improve their chances of top employment.
My wife is a very bright woman. She used to be a Operation Manager/General Manager of a small to middle size privet company, when she left she had no troubles to get work but could not find a position in larger companies that could reflects her capacity. One company told her that it is because she has no degree. Now she works as a PA to two directors and she is board to tears.
A degree is more than a piece of paper on the wall. A degree tells a potential employer that you can think and analysed in a certain way, that you can work to timetable and under pressure and that you set a target for yourself and achieve it.
To gain ATPL is very hard work and it requires lots of determination. If it was down to me I would start a Degree course that after 4 years the student will have his/her BA in Aeronautics as well as ATPL.
You are a potential employer, having the option of two candidates, one with my university degree and ATPL and one without the degree, which one of the two will you choose (say that the one w/o the degree has 200h extra)?

[Boss Raptor]

I was rather referring more to the current situation in the UK and my personal experience/attitude...

I had the misfortune to take on two 'good' UK University 'Business' degree holders on separate occasions over the last couple of years...both immature, incapable of thinking for themselves and in one case although supposed to be 'Computer Literate' one guy couldn't even use a computer, except for Internet of course...individual cases but not assisting to alter my attitude that experience,personality and enthusiasm are equally important...

My MD has just an Engineering Apprenticeship, Licensed Engineer qualification and ATPL to his name, my Technical Director an Engineers qualification...myself an ATPL, ditto my Chief Pilot...

[Sagey]

Anyway all this is very relevant.

However, if u are coming up to University age and have the opportunity to go to University do it.

There is nothing stopping you applying for sponsorships whilst at University and if you get one, then it is your decision what you do

Sagey

[Desk Driver]

I wish i had gone for degree then perhaps I would'nt be driving this bloody desk!

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You fly em we'll fill em!

[steven]

AAhh yes. The old degree not a degree question. Let me say something a degree can hold alot of weight on an application. This is because it holds some serious proof that the person you could potentially be hiring is not tottally incapable. However this does not mean that someone without a degree is incapable. Experience talks! And you've gotta get it somewhere. To fly aeroplanes you do not have to have a degree, you need an ATPL. If you are thinking about going to university or self sponsoring I would suggest university. This is because it is a solid foundation to a career and self sponsoring at a young age can leave you crippled with poverty and without a job! However if you can get yourself into a apprentice/training scheme this is just as good a way.
I personnally am at Uni at the moment, and hate it. It's not all that bad but I always feel like I'm here as a means to an end before I can really get a crack at what I wanna do. Whilst at uni I have applied to a certain Airline for sponsorship and am now in the last round of selection. If I get in I will take it and I don't consider this to be a bad career move.
It is also worth noting if you do not have a degree but have an ATPL you can go an do an MSc at City University (part-time). This course is specialised for aviation professionals looking to expand their qualifications. This leaves you without the debt of uni, still young, earning a decent wage doing the job you love, and with a ATPL and MSc behind your name.
Degrees have their worth, but so do other methods of training. Just don't get caught out by paying a fortune to a flight school and ending up without a job. You have to really want it.
All in all it is up to the individual to decide what is best for them. Thats what counts.

[Boss Raptor]

Well summed up Steven...I can empathise with your position and it has certainly been my experience that having a degree does not guarantee or even indicate 'quality' in a person's ability or character!

[Speedbird 2946]

What Sagey says is interesting... and in my opinion good advice. By all means start uni as it is a great laugh, you make many new friends, and you can play as many pranks as you like... but if in your heart of hearts flying is what you want to do then apply to ALL the sponsorship schemes whilst there and hope that someone realises your dedication and gives you the thumbs up. This is what I did and I have never loked back. My uni time was fun, but flying has been my goal my whole life and now I've got a sponsorship I've taken it and am going at it full steam. There's no stopping me now... wooppppeeeeeeee :)

Do drop me aline if you fancya chat offline about my experience with this!

SB

:) :) :) :)

[SpeedBird22]

This old chestnut has been one I've spent many a pint pondering over. I'm currently doing a law degree but, as seems to be the trend, I hate it really and wish I was flying.

So, about two terms into the first year I began to get really itchy feet and found myself ambling into airports and finding out how I could go about being a pilot...this culminated in me begging, pleading and stealing just enough cash to do the PPL (the sole effect of this was fuelling my love of flying and dislike of occupiers negligence and similar stuff that was forced down my throat...)

Anyway, about three months and 50 pints later, having consulted everyone short of the Dalai Lama, I decided a plan of action.

I'd started the degree so I was damn well going to finish. I accepted that chances were it wouldn't make a VAST difference in future prospects, as I think that comes from natural aptitude and drive. However, about thirty or fourty years down the line it may well be worth it and is important as a backup.

What about the flying though?? Wellllllllll...that was something I couldn't sacrifice. If I did end up glued to terra firma I'd be so grumpy I was sure I wouldn't even bother to open my eyes in the morning, and was guaranteed to be reduced to a blithering mess everytime a cherokee or seneca passed overhead on a clear summers day. So, the plan as it stands at the mo is to work veryveryvery hard in my spare time and holidays and save money to carry on flying. Careful time budgeting should mean I'll not neglect the studies (tempting as it is) and still be able to earn money.

Hopefully, by the time I pop out of the other end of the higher education system, I'll have ratings (vaguely) comparable to those of a pilot without a degree of the same age. At the moment, aged 19 I'm nearly done with the PPL and have just about enough saved for the IMC. In two years time, who knows, maybe PPL/IMC/NIGHT and saving ready to do CPL/IR and ATPL as soon as I graduate. End result : aged 21 with a degree and a big headstart.

Another point worth noting is that in fourty or so years time, a degree will be a lot more important than it is now, or was fourty years ago. Its fast becoming the standard so call it an investment :-)

Anyway, the moral of the story is that I think if you've got the determination, get a degree. Three years really ISN'T THAT long. You'll still be able to fly and will have the edge over similar aged people who dont't have the degree. Remember, licences and ratings are something which will take up a lot of your flying career. Trying to fit a degree in there later in life may be pushing it...so grab it at the first opportunity.

Happy Flying,

BirdSeed22

[ickle black box]

Whatever you do, if you don't get sponsorship, you need to earn enough to be able to pay for the training yourself. Even if you get a degree, you then need to work hard to get a decent job afterwards. A mate of mine has a degree, but earns 9k. Not enough to pay for an ATPL. I'm in IT, which is a good place to be for a fast career and rapidly increasing salary, despite no official qualifications. I recon I can pay for and finish the APTL within 2.5 years now (88hrs currently). Although when I've completed it, I'll then be wishing I'd completed the full degree, when I start job hunting.

ickle

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'd be as keen to employ somebody with *only* an engineering degree as an Engineer, as I suspect most airlines would be to employ somebody with *only* a frozen ATPL in the right hand seat.

However, an engineering graduate with flying experience, or conversely a frozen ATPL with a relevant degree (forget History, IT, Ladies Basket weaving or other comparable subjects - Engineering, maths, science, or possibly languages under certain circumstances) will stand out in a very tough job market.

G

[hamster]

I am from New Zealand, after leaving school still had a passion for flying but like most, University or Not???
However, I found a degree called a Batchelor of Aviation which I have completed in the past 3 yrs, i have successfully completed with the attached dlying components of a CPL, MEIR, Frozen ATPL, C-Cat instructors rating with 300 odd hrs. At the end of this degree i managed to do well enough and kiss the right buts to the point where the University has now hired me as a flight instructor teaching the program.
Over here the degree seems to becoming more valuable with the likes of Qantas acknowledging its importance. My question is dosn't anything like this exist elsewhere??? and if so then it is an obvious choice to come out after 3yrs with the flying and academic qualifications for the similar cost of private training.

[This message has been edited by hamster (edited 09 March 2001).]

[AC-DC]

Well spoken Genghis!
I know two great guys, one has a degree in Civil Engineering and the other in Aerodynamics. The first one got a right seat (on a jet) with about 600h, two years later he is on the left. The second one was told to be in touch for an interview once he completes the I.R

Hamster
Nothing like that in the UK, I don't know about the rest of Europe. In the US I know of one university but you might find more.

Boss Raptor
A degree does not make anyone better it just improves and enhances the potential (if there is any). You and I belong to the days that a degree was not needed to get well paid jobs. These days are gone.
I have done mine as a five years evening course (two evenings a week). During the day I was in a full time low paid employment, working overtime on weekends and two evenings a week. It was very hard, it did not make me any better than before but it gave me another tool, another key to the door.