SOUTHAMPTON

[StGermain]

Looked at SOU Winter 11/12 schedule and disappointed not to see 'rumoured' Jet2 service...any one know what is happening with this ? SOU schedule appears quite light on flights based on previous years.

[MARKEYD]

What was the Jet2 rumour about then ?

[Newforest2]

And why isn't this question in the long running Southampton thread? ;)

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/193116-southampton.html

[canberra97]

I agree why is this not in the SOU thread!

I would also like to know about this 'rumour' regarding Jet 2 at SOU although personally I would have thought if anything Jet 2 would be flying from BOH regarding there history with the airport and it's longer runway which would be neeed for their route network as to SOU shorter runway.

Or is this just a 'plane spotters rumour'?

When I was a kid and was a plane spotter I can remember all those rumours about this and that but at the end of the day it was all the usuall wishfull thinking by plane spotters and hardly any of it became reality!

Which I should imagine this rumour turns out to be, don't get me wrong I would love it to be true but my cynical self says NON!

[adfly]

Haven't heard anything about the Jet2 rumor either? Also it seems the Thomson PMI flight will be a Flybe E195 next year and a Saturday rather than the Thursday it was this year. A shame to not see Spanair return as the flights were mostly full (A320's) and the takeoff's from SOU's little runway were spectacularly powerful, as I experienced first hand!! Can't imagine what a 757 would be like!!

[uptoncol]

You never know it may still change to spanair again for next year ,as this years thurs flight was down to be opperated by flybe and only changed to spanair in december to give more seats .

And as for the 757 opperating from sou no probs ,the 757 has a better take off and landing performance than the 320 so is good on short runways but more seats to sell .

col

[Lord Spandex Masher]

However, they were limited to, I believe, 70 odd passengers and PMI was as far as it could get.

Not that great really.

[adfly]

They could probably fill one, PMI is a popular destination and I know a number of people who live on the same road as me who often holiday there. Like I said they managed good loads with an A320 so I don't think filling a 757 would be too much trouble at least during the peak season anyway.

The 757's weren't' that restricted, they could just about make TFS with about 4 or 5 rows blocked off and the addition of winglets since then should enable the 757's to operate more profitably.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Adfly, you're probably right. I got my wires crossed and was talking about something else.

Uptoncol, you're not quite right. The 320 has better runway perf at MTOM than either the 737 or 757.

[uptoncol]

Well i have been to tfs on the 757 when it opperated from sou nov 2003 /apr2004 on a wet runway full 235 pax direct the spaniar flight which opperated the a320 mostly had to stop en route nantes to refuel .

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I'm not disputing that but I suspect that the 320 would have been take off weight limited rather than runway length (ie performance) limited.

[Whispering Giant]

Think you'll find more of the problem is the ramp/stand space required for a 757 or a A321 at SOU rather than the length of the runway as there is only 1 stand I beleive capable of taking a aircraft of this size, and then it can only do it if the other stands arnt fully occupied.

[adfly]

Indeed, I believe all of the A32X's, and 737NG's along with the 757's have to park across two stands, either 2/3 or 3/4 due to their wingspans and tail heights!I believe the largest aircraft that can fit in one stand are the E195's, 737 classics and the 717.

[RNWY03]

whatever happened to the BAA 'masterplan' to create a second terminal/apron on the eastern side of the airfield?

[canberra97]

BAA Southampton should be thinking of making new aprons space as soon as possible before ANY new terminal ideas which I think they have changed there mind on anyway.

I wonder if the space occupied by the Royal Mail building is on a negotiated lease from the land owners, if that is the case it might be an idea if BAA could try and buy the land and find a way of relocating the Royal Mail depot over to the northeast corner of the airport where BAA had proposed further airport development and linking it to Chickenhall Lane at Bishopstoke.

BAA could then take over the area for further aircraft stands which I should imagine they could have at least 5 new stands by doing that and close to the current terminal.

It would be alot easier to do that then build a new terminal, etc on the other side of the runway.

[MARKEYD]

Looking at the charter flights for next summer 2012 at the moment Thomas Cook have a Saturday Palma flight at 0700 with Flybe and Thomson have a Saturday Palma flight at 0730 also with Flybe , i was wondering if they may well merge these 2 flights as Malaga and Nice both depart at 0740 and 0710 using the EMB 195 unless there is an extra EMB 195 being based next summer ?

Palma 0700
Nice 0710
Palma 0730
Malaga 0740

[adfly]

Thomson may change their flight to their own aircraft or spanair, like last year, although this was not announced until December. It would be interesting to see what routes Flybe could add with an extra E195 based:

I could see the following working:

BCN - 5pw-daily
WAW - 3pw to cater for the large polish community in and around Southampton
MAH - 2pw
IBZ - 2pw
MPL - 2-3pw the three new French routes apparently did very well this year
FCO - 4pw
MXP - 5pw-daily
NAP - 2pw
MLA - 2pw - I believe this route used to be served by an Air Malta charter flight
INN - 1-2pw - Austrian/Inghams are cutting their BOH flight and INN is currently unnerved from SOU too

Note: these are just suggestions based on my humble knowledge and opinions and I realise that some may seem a little unrealistic, although I do believe at least some of my suggestions could do fairly well!

[canberra97]

I agree with you and BCN is long overdue from SOU.

I would like to see the return of Cork and Dubrovnik as well as Hamburg being added and maybe a Scandinavian destination but I could see BCN, IBZ, MAH, MPL, MXP, INN, WAW working.

Malta would be a good destination but it would probably work better with a charter flight rather then a scheduled flight.

Previously Air Malta operated charters from SOU on behalf of Thomson Holidays and Newmarket Holidays, they were popular although I think some were routed via Exeter!

[StGermain]

BCN would be a dream come true for SOU but it still evades them after years of trying to get an operator on to the route. FlyBe fly over BCN to destinations further south ! If they are not interested and cant see the market potential, who will be ?

As for Malta, I think Air malta operated this charter but it went via BRS.

[uptoncol]

Yes air malta did go via brs chartered by airtours 737.300 cheers col .

[adfly]

Just had a look at the current S12 schedules:

Blue Islands:

All of their JER and GCI flights are down to be operated by ATR42 500's so I assume they will be getting a couple more - also a sizeable increase in capacity compared to the Jetstreams especially since the frequency remains at ~3x daily for both routes.

Aurigny:

Much the same as this year although there do seem to be less flights especially Fri/sat/sun compared to this year.

Eastern

Aberdeen continues as 3 dailyish all on J41 bar Sunday which is a S20 via DTV. No sign of Dijon returning at the moment although I think it did perform fairly well with loads mostly in the 20's this year but don't take my word for it!

Skybus:

Same as last year 3x per week rising to 6x during peak times and at the start of the season at least it seems to be a 1-stop flight although it does not say where it stops.

Flybe:

Few changes to frequency's - BZR and PMI are up from 2x per week this year to 3x. Currently Verona is down as having no flights and Pau isn't even on the schedule although they may be released later.

Thomson:

PMI returns operated by a Flybe E195 on Saturday although the flight could still get upgraded later on as it was for this year.

Thomas Cook:

S12 is not currently bookable but it has been previously said that the flights will return as per this year - PMI on a Saturday and MAH on a Sunday both operated by Flybe E195's.

[uptoncol]

Thomas cook holidays for s12 from sou are available starting sat 2nd june to pmi and sun 3rd june mah

cheers col

[Geo73]

adfly

Looking on the Blue Islands website Guernsey/Jersey to Southampton next summer is showing as being operated by Jetstream.

[Jerbourg]

Another Atr42-500 is expected to join the fleet next year.
I wonder how Flybe will react to this increase in aircraft size & therefore possible loss of pax on their own SOU Channel Islands routes?

[Wycombe]

Adfly - I suspect the early season Skybus flights will route via NQY, as that's what the current end of season flights are doing.

[adfly]

Jerbourg: 1 being added would only be enough to cover 1 of the routes as they are both non-stop so if the schedule is correct then they need third aircraft or some rescheduling elsewhere. This can all change though!!

[canberra97]

It was an Air Malta Boeing 737-300 used on the route on behalf of Thomson Holidays and First Choice Holidays although separate companys at the time they shared the flight, it was not an Airtours chartered flight, plus Airtours never operated Boeomg 737s.

Several one off charters in conjunction with the Southern Daily Echo travel club along with Newmarket Holidays were also operated after Thomson and First Choice pulled Malta from there SOU IT schedule after only two seasons.

It has been mentioned that the flight went via BRS but I am sure some went via EXT!

[uptoncol]

The air malta was chartered by airtours holidays using a air malta 737.300 it opperated on a tues evening ,the flights which opperated via ext were thomson chartered air europa 737.400 to alc on a sat and agp on a sun .

cheers col

[canberra97]

You may be correct to the Air Malta flights being operated onbehalf of Airtours!

Thomson Holidays used Air Europa, Air Malta, Britannia (Thomson) and Sata for there IT flights and First Choice and Airtours generally used Air Malta, Iberoworld and Spanair.

During the 1998/2001 period there were IT flights to Alicante, Faro, Ibiza, Mahon, Malaga, Malta, Palma, Tenerife.

[uptoncol]

Its a shame they do not offer many charter flights from sou these days .

col

[Serenity]

All a bit regional really.

Yes I know they have flights to the continent, but the small mindedness there does nothing to help their progress!!!

[shamrock7seal]

It comes down to safety, lack of classic 737/757 available in fleets these days and also the new A320/B738 being payload restricted if they operate from the runway at SOU.

Besides that point, the charter offering from BOH is substantial.

The two airports compliment each other perfectly.

[Groundloop]

but the small mindedness there does nothing to help their progress!!!

Who is being small minded? The charter airlines for daring to think there is no strong economic case to operate from SOU?

[StGermain]

...not small minded, SOU are probably just not interested in ad hoc charters for fear of taking opportunities from their dominant (90%+) carrier, Flybe. Added to this an unattractive apron configuration for anything above an E95 or baby Airbus, its easy to see why charters dont really fit with peak traffic parking...of course if the holiday charter companies could operate attractive out of peak slots through SOU, that may be a different story.

[adfly]

After many years of waiting and anticipation it seems we may finally get a BCN route from SOU! Apparently Vueling are considering adding SOU as part of their BCN expansion and it is currently being discussed on a.net! :ok:

[Nakata77]

This service will be diverted to BOH so often that eventually it will move over to BOH - in the same way Air Berlin did.

[adfly]

I don't think it will be, BOH does not have the same demand for a BCN route as FR already serve GRO. I can't see it needing to be diverted at all as the runway can cope easily and you still have room for 2 of Flybe's based E195's even with an A320 taking up two stands!

[Cloud Surf]

Great news if its true. Lets just hope the timings are right. Sure Flybe will start serving it when they finally get their 175's!

Now how about that Scandanavian destination? Surely Flybe's tie up with Finncomm will allow for this?

Also surely a polish route, Southampton is 1/8th polish last time I checked!

[canberra97]

Well I hope this pulls off as I will be on the first flight, a long overdue destination from SOU.

As I am usually traveling alone the extra costs of airport parking, fuel, time, etc to either LGW,LHR,STN for flights to BCN is very frustrating so if this flight actually happens it will now be just a 4 mile hop from my front door to SOU!

I was only thinking when Cardiff was announced, I thought to myself would it be cool if Vueling came to SOU.

Fingers crossed and come on SOU get ya finger out and start building new apron space!

[Cloud Surf]

Good point Canberra! I mean I know we are in a recession but surely they could be building more apron space, especially with the sale proceeds of Gatwick and soon to be Edinburgh burning a whole in BAA's back pocket. More taxi ways as well would help with the delays.

[Nakata77]

I've never understood why BAA sold prime land to the Royal Mail that could have been used for apron space. Could it be that they didn't really think the airport would actually take off in the way it has?

[TCAS FAN]

Nakata 77

They never sold it, they were given the chance to buy it but considered it too expensive to purchase. How they have come (privately) to regret that decision, finally compiling a Master Plan many years after. Something about stable door and horses?

Another classic from the World Class Airport group, followed by the short term car park saga and more.

[teabag1]

Can anybody shine some light please? Been contacted (via agent) for new owner of SOU based company that operates B200 + Baron +??? not on AOC but looking to head that way. Needing Ground Ops Mgr to take them forward - finding it a bit difficult to get info as to who's involved. Any local views appreciated!!

[Serenity]

Try Signature. they handle all the private/corporate aircraft..

[Yak97]

Teabag, Got the same enquiry. Company has 3 M- reg aircraft (Kingair 350, Baron and a Bonanza - so obviously Beechcraft fans!) so all private operation. Some talk of commercial operations but not straight away - the M- reg would not allow that anyway. Have an existing Ground Ops person but they are moving on. Could be a nice little number - or could be a nightmare - dependng on the owners.

[Phalconphixer]

@adfly said...
I could see the following working:

BCN - 5pw-daily
WAW - 3pw to cater for the large polish community in and around Southampton
MAH - 2pw
IBZ - 2pw
MPL - 2-3pw the three new French routes apparently did very well this year
FCO - 4pw
MXP - 5pw-daily
NAP - 2pw
MLA - 2pw - I believe this route used to be served by an Air Malta charter flight
INN - 1-2pw - Austrian/Inghams are cutting their BOH flight and INN is currently unnerved from SOU too

SOU-GRX would be nice, maybe once or twice a week, especially now that Ryanair has pulled out of Granada completely. The Monarch GRX-LGW service was always popular with good load factors until Ryan bullied their way in and stole all the subsidies. Because Granada told Ryan 'no way' at contract renewal time they have gone (no great loss) and consequently GRX has no direct flights to the UK.
Yes we have Malaga but even with the new terminal it's still a cattlemarket, parking is a nightmare and the drive from Jaen takes as long as the flight from Southampton!
I am sure that if Flybe did a customer survey on its Malaga flights they would find that at least 50% of the pax were headed inland. They could also try GRX as a Ski holiday resort for the period when SOU-AGP operate during January. Just a thought...

[canberra97]

Yes I totally agree with Granada as well, I think it could be a good route on days when AGP is not operating.

I have at least four friends I know who travel to AGP but actually live in the Leon area so I am sure as you say there would be a demand esp as there are now no direct UK flight.

BTW Granada is a beuatifill city and well worth the visit for those of you that that have not been!

[Cloud Surf]

Well the stands on the east side should have been built by now and new taxi ways are needed so planes don't have to back track down the runway every time they land. Planes always seem to land on time yet leave late, this must be the cause?

Any more news on the Barcelona route anouncement?

[BOHEuropean]

They'll have to time the Vueling just right if they do start SOU services, seeing as Flybe have 3x Embraer 195s based during the winter weekends and during the summer.

[Cloud Surf]

Now in the route map on Southampton's website. Going to be on Friday (8:30-9:15) and Sunday and Thursday (11:30-11:55).

Hope this route does well! I'm certainly going to make use of it :ok:.

[adfly]

I noticed it in the Hampshire society freebe mag as there is a small section where the airport include part of their 'breeze' magazine. I assume it will be on an A320 as I believe Vueling's only A319 is based in Toulouse at the moment.

The new route is great news for the airport and I hope it will be a success! Vueling also have a seasonal base in IBZ in the summer so if BCN works for them I think around 2x per week to IBZ could work too but I shan't get too ahead of myself!!

EDIT: The route seems to drop to 2 weekly at the end of June until August which seems unusual as I would have though that those months would be the peak period for the route. Of course it could just be a small mistake on the timetable. Does anyone know when we can expect a press release regarding the route as I would have though that after all this time the people at SOU would want to promote it as much as they can!

[MARKEYD]

Has anyone actually confirmed that Vuelling is to operate the Barcelona route as still nothing showing on the Vuelling web site confirming days and times and certainly nothing on the Southampton Airport web site page , not even on there route map yet as previously stated ?

[adfly]

It will happen its just not been announced yet. SOU site has it on the timetable and routemap and if you google 'vueling southampton' you will see they have already made a destination page for it just not linked it to the rest of the site, hence why its not on the routemap and drop-down menus. That page says 'the route is not yet on sale, come back in a few days' and has done for the past couple of days.

Also, in the Flybe thread it was mentioned that they will add Tours (TUF) to their never-ending list of french destinations next summer!:ok:

[Aero Mad]

Here's the page on the Vueling website

Flights to Southampton (http://www.vueling.com/EN/cities/flights-to-southampton-SOU.html)

[uptoncol]

Hi ,looking on the thomson website no flight avaiable now from sou nxt summer to pmi it was showing before as a flybe aircraft being chartered by thomson ,perhaps they have just taking the flight /holidays off sale until they find another aircraft.

cheers colin

[adfly]

Could be a for W pattern from another base to be added, or a phone call to span(squezze them all in)air!!

[uptoncol]

Yes perhaps they are waiting for that one as the loads were very good this year with the a320 ,would be really surprised if they took the flight off completly.

cheers colin

[adfly]

How long has TOM's PMI flight been operating? I know it used to be a TOM 733 before Flybe operated it for a year on their E195 followed by the Spanair A320. What about in previous years?

[uptoncol]

Well it started back in may 1998 using air europa 737.300 /400 a few years later it also opp using as it was then brittania airways 757 on a w pattern from luton then tom 737.300 on w pattern from boh then last year flybe 195 and this year spanair a 320 so just a few over the years .

cheers col

[MARKEYD]

Has been confirmed by Thomson holidays that they have pulled there 1 Palma service on a Saturday with Flybe

They are concentrating on airports with a larger programme of flights next summer hence the likes of HUM , INV , SOU and possibly MME have seen there flights stopped . November is the time when holiday companies start to finalize there programme for the following year and either add or cancel routes . Bournemouth is being offered as an alternative

[uptoncol]

Bit stupid if you ask me if they are doing well on the flight from the airport why stop the flight it is so much easier to get to sou than boh .

I wonder if thomas cook will also pull out ?


cheers colin

[Buster the Bear]

Yields. Maybe incentives from the BAA have also expired.

Better filling a 787 to Palma from Gatwick, than a costly -300 from Eastleigh?

Making a 787 work financially inter european is another story!

[canberra97]

Are Vueling actually going to operate from SOU to BCN next year as it has gone very quiet regarding this new route and with no press release from either Vueling or BAA Southampton.

Although it has a city guide to Southampton on the Vueling website Southampton does not show on their drop down menu?

I do hope this flight actually does start as it is WELL LONG OVERDUE from Southampton.

[StGermain]

Agreed Canberra, a long overdue addition to the destination list from SOU but....the Barcelona link has disappeared from the SOU Airport web destination map...and the city information about Southampton has also disappeared from the vuelling web site. Not a good sign !!:(

[adfly]

Looks to be a quiet year in 2012 so far, Vueling looking unlikely, SI are using Jetstreams rather than the ATR's they had on the timetable's Thomson gone and nothing new from Flybe other than the odd frequency gained/lost here and there and even then the losses seem to outweigh the gains! Still they could be making space for new routes which have yet to be announced -keep your glasses half full everyone!! :ok:

[Aero Mad]

I think you're all jumping the gun a bit here... the Vueling city guide remains online (http://www.vueling.com/EN/cities/flights-to-southampton-SOU.html) and there has been no official announcement either way.

[adfly]

Good to see that TCX/BE should have all of the balearic isles served from SOU now!! Capacity-wise I suppose it makes up for the loss of the TOM flight as that was down as being a BE E195 for next year although I wouldn't be surprised if PMI at the least was eventually upgraded to a TCX A320 and possibly even a A321/752 at some point but I shan't get too ahead of myself.

EDIT: This is the most recent post in the thread posted at 20:34 on the 24/11/11 uk time but the timing problem just shows otherwise!!

[Chitty]

i dont know if any one knows this but Thomas cook for are doing charter flights to ibiza for summer 2012 using an flybe 195 but there is nothing on the airports website but you can book it thought thomas cooks website

[adfly]

A quick search reveals the following:

TCX Summer '12

Palma - Sat 7:00
Ibiza - Sat 14:00
Mahon - Sun 7:40

All flown on Flybe E195's.

[Bournemouth Air]

Any ideas on the Vueling flights yet

[zantopst]

Hi,

I have emailed Vueling and here is the response:

'
Thank you for contacting Vueling. In response to your e-mail, we would like to indicate that, currently, it is not planned to add Southampton as a Vueling destination anytime soon.

As of now, the only England destination available for booking, from several spanish cities, is London. However, a new route, Barcelona - Cardiff, is planned to start operating next spring, and is already available for booking to fly on dates between march and may 2012.

We can only recommend you to keep an eye on our website, www.vueling.com (http://www.vueling.com/), and to subscribe to our newsletter to receive the latest news about routes and offers as soon as they appear.'

I guess that means, No, Vueling are not going to start flying to Sou.

Cheers

Steve

[adfly]

Looks to be a fairly quiet Summer then, can't see too many changes happening at this stage! So we have the following:

Aurigny: Pretty much the same as last year.

Blue Islands: As above, all flights now showing as a J32 rather than the ATR 42 which was originally on the schedules.

Eastern: Aberdeen continues at ~3 daily, Stavanger and Leeds (why!) are available via ABZ but Durham, Liverpool, Dijon and the direct Leeds flights are all gone.

Flybe: Similar to last year with a few small changes. Pau seems to have been dropped, with the slack taken by adding extra weely fights to BZR and PMI (Both up to 3 weekly). Overall the frequeny's on some of the domestic flghts seem a little lower than this summer but nothing significant. Worth noting that none of the 'leisure' routes are not showing beyond W11/12 on the SOU website timetable so we may see some more revisions prehaps with an E175 or two thrown into the mix now they are finally being delivered! :ok:

Skybus: Similar to last year, ops via NQY outside peak season.

Thomas Cook: PMI and MAH continue on the same days (Sat and Sun morning) and IBZ has been added on a Sat afternoon. All operated by Flybe E195's.

Thomson: Dropped PMI route as part of their bigger focus on their more major airports/bases so will not operate anything from SOU next year after many years of flights!!

[Charlie Roy]

I guess that means, No, Vueling are not going to start flying to Sou.

For what it's worth Barcelona - Southampton was in Click Air's original 5 year plan (before they merged with Vueling). Not that a 5 year plan is worth much in aviation anyway :cool:

[Aero Mad]

Didn't Chairman Mao have Five Year Plans? :rolleyes:

[Rivet Joint]

Anyone else think this is all very strange? I mean surely if an airline gets to the stage of creating a location guide on its website the route is pretty much going ahead. Yet it has all disappered and now they pretty much state there was no such route proposed? I suspect a certain airline at Southampton threw their toys out of the pram and the airport ended up having to rethink the offer it made to attract Vueling. Obviously this is just my opinion and things often change in this industry but Flybe if you don't want Vueling serving Bcn then serve it yourself!

[GCILover]

I used to have the unfortunate task of working for Flybe. When they 1st opened the SOU base, NCE and BCN were 2 of the 1st few routes they said they were going to operate.....NCE came eventually and still no BCN.

More false promises

[canberra97]

BCN is LONG LONG overdue from SOU escpecially considering how many UK airports are connected to BCN and not SOU.

The popularity for Barcelona as a city is huge for visitors, conventions, sporting events as well as the growing cruise trade which makes the port the busiest in Europe.

It is my favourite European city as well as my companys HQ so come on Vueling or even Flybe at that matter and consider opening BCN.

[Rivet Joint]

I remember that too Gcilover. Nice and Barcelona are two of the best places I have visited and the latter seems to be offered at most other uk airports. Think Barcelona is the sort of destination that would do well in this part of the Uk where people have more income and would go for a city break. I certainly planned to be one of the first to use it! :hmm:

[StGermain]

A good point Rivet Joint but I doubt that the airport would have pushed Vueling away because of pressure from a dominant airline. If an airport meets the terms of its' operating licence, it wouldnt be able to favour one particular airline over another. The reality is that Vueling have more to lose at other UK airports by going up against FlyBe at SOU. I suspect that this was a commercial decision from Vueling and am certain that SOU will be very disappointed at the loss of a potentially strong airline partnership.:(

[MARKEYD]

Also wonder if the the BCN route was announced by Vuelling it could well be Ryanair at BOH would suddenly switch from Gerona to BCN , they seem to have Gerona pretty well rapped up at Bournemouth with 5 flights a week in the summer with good loads but much of there work is slowly moving to BCN

[Rivet Joint]

Still reckon it would be worth a try from Southamton. Its the kind of city destination that would be better suited to Southampton then Bournemouth. It surely needs to be the first new destination when more 175's come into service. Surely a destination to Poland would be a no brainer too.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

RJ, trouble is the 175 performance from SOU is sadly lacking, to be kind about it. It's going to struggle to get as far as the Dash with a similar load! We're talking Nice at a push apparently. Personally I don't think you'll see that many 175's in Southampton.

It would work on the 195 though but they're tied up in the longer and fatter routes.

[adfly]

I guessing thats due to Flybe being tight-arses when it comes to engines so their E175's are/will all be de-rated. I say this because BA Cityflyer's E170's don't seem to have any problem reaching Madrid, Palma, Ibiza, Zurich, Stockholm among others from 200m less tarmac!!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Yep, the smallest engines available. Pfffffffffffff.

It was such a good deal and it works well enough at every other base (maybe not GCI;)) well enough that Flybe are just lumping it with the SOU performance, or lack of.

Out of interest adfly do you know what sort of loads Chippy Fryer are carrying from the docks?

[adfly]

Well I believe the Chippy Fryer E170's seat 78 and I doubt they have much trouble filling the seats on the Sun/Ski routes plus have never heard of them having to block off rows but I wouldn't take my word for it!! But then the BA ones have engines rather than hairdyers :E

[Cloud1]

So the E175 can operate in and out of SOU:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUbRVPXfZbc

Do we know what restrictions this flight operated with, if any? I am talking fuel or pax numbers

[adfly]

I think for shorter flights (sub 90min) there is little problem but not with the Dash's longer routes such as Verona, Salzburg, Avignon, Perpignan and occasonaly Nice where at first the E175 seems like a perfect replacement/upgrade which I would guess require significant payload restrictions (not sure of the numbers) to stop them ploughing onto the M27!! I would assume these restrictions make using the E175 on longer routes from SOU unviable which is ironic since Flybe originally were on about Copenhagen (possibly within range), Stuttgart (should be in range), Stockholm (Unlikely), Milan (Unlikely) and Helsinki (No).

As for BCN it was not mentioned by Flybe when they were on about what they were planning on doing with their shiny new E175's but I'd guess it would fall in between the 'possible' and 'unlikely' ranges.

I think the best we can hope for is that SOU is able to gain a 4th based E195 as others are moved from smaller bases such as ABZ and INV in favour of the E175's. As for routes I can see BCN working well(as can everyone!) 3-5 weekly along with a route or two to Poland 2-4 weekly each. I also would expect to see a few more new regional France routes (MPL, GNB & BIQ spring to mind) and possibly even Spanish routes (MJV, VLC, BIO). Italy is another option but I shan't get too carried away!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Ignoring the QNH today because I don't know what it was the RTOM at 10C is a gnats cock under 34 tonnes.

Flybe MTOM is 34,999kg. APS is 22,500kg give or take. Max total pax is 88.

88x90 (for cash) = 7920
+ 22,500 = 30,420kg giving you a smudge over 3.5 tonnes of fuel. Enough for Nice? No. That'll probably do you for a Bergerac (maybe) and getting close to an EDI from SOU.

Wait until it gets hotter!

[jabird]

Yes, SOU > ABZ > LBA would be quite a bizarre routing, but is there a chance DIJ hasn't been release yet?

An odd route, not available from anywhere else, but SOU does well out of France, I presume there is a good volume of pax coming out of London / elsewhere in SE, and SOU makes much more sense for a smaller unit than LGW?

[adfly]

Does anyone know how far Flybe's E195's can operate from SOU before restrictions make it unviable? I know their total range is around 1800mi and the longest route they currently fly from SOU is just over 1000mi (SOU-FAO) and they seat up to 118.

Also does anyone have a rough idea of how many miles some of the larger aircraft can fly from SOU such as the:

A320
A321
733
738
752 - I think its around 1800mi which is SOU-TFS range

[Lord Spandex Masher]

A lot of variables in it. With a full load of passengers FAO and DBV (which is a smidge further) are about it.

If the temperature is 0 or thereabouts you could take off at 49 tonnes (Flybe max) and you could get about 8 tonnes of fuel on but any hotter than that then you obviously lose some lifting ability.

IIRC FAO needed 6 tonnes ish and during the summer we would often be scratching around for an extra couple of hundred kilos and quite often left with minimum fuel.

[Rivet Joint]

So we seem to have got to the bottom of the 175 issue. Basically the engines are too small!? From what I could gather from all the spiel coming out of Exeter the 175's were partly coming in to open up thinner routes to further destinations i.e. routes in Scandinavia, Italy, Spain etc.

Do the 195's have any restrictions? If not why do the 175's?

Although everyone moans about the dash you can't deny that it is one of the main reasons Flybe has grown so large and quickly in this country as apposed to all the other regionals who operated jets. At the moment I can't see any merits for the introduction of the 175's.

[adfly]

The E175's are a great option for Flybe but unfortunately they chose to cut costs and have de-rated engines on them (The main reason their performance is so poor from SOU) whereas the E195's do not, meaning they have a higher thrust-weight ratio + also a larger wing area which means they are far less restricted from SOU (Lord Spandex Masher's post details the limits of the E195 from SOU very well).

Its a real shame as if the E175's were de-rated I could have easily seen quite a few of the promised routes and others also being added and working well and also making Flybe's 'mini hub' at SOU a more attractive option to those who use LHR/LGW for their short haul travels.

[JobsaGoodun]

Lets not forget that Flybe have potentially ordered up to 140 of these machines. It is quite possible that future deliveries could have the specification altered if required, indeed, they have the option to convert any options and purchase rights to any of the E-Jet family as required.

The main priority for these aircraft so far appears to match route capacity to demand, as with ABZ/INV to LGW and to also offer a more competitive product on some of the longer European business city routes MAN/BHX to DUS & CDG etc. where often LH/SN/AF are also using jet equipment.

The de-rated engines with their lower burn are allowing the E75 to compete so effectively against the Q400 economics and I am sure they will present a better product and impression to passengers. However, perhaps the most significant advantage is the impressive E-Jet reliability meaning an end to to rather childish and tiresome Fly(may)be as used by some on this forum. :rolleyes:

[SWBKCB]

The E175's are a great option for Flybe but unfortunately they chose to cut costs and have de-rated engines on them (The main reason their performance is so poor from SOU)

Or alternatively

The E175's are a great option for Flybe but unfortunately they've had to chose the more expensive option rather than cut costs by having de-rated engines on them (which would have been suitable for the rest of the network)

[adfly]

Although you single out SOU as if it is 'holding back' the rest of the network don't forget that a number of flybe's other key bases with shorter runways:

BHD - 1829m
JER - 1716m
GCI - 1463m
IOM - 1837m
SOU - 1723m

Although the mentioned bases are a minority in the bigger scheme of things you have to remember SOU is their largest base and I belive BHD is their second largest. JER is one of the larger bases and both GCI and IOM have a fair amount of Flybe's operations. These bases could all benefit greatly from the E175's being added, remember all the hoo-hah about the new aircraft being introduced on LGW-GCI? The best we can hope for is either a future order or the conversion of some of the existing order so Flybe's will get the most out of their shiny new aircraft while still benefitting to some extent their fuel costs thanks to the hairdryers!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I should just clarify that the figures I used for SOU were the alternate performance from 20 which is in fact half a tonne worse than the standard perf.

So at 10 degrees you can lift 34.5 tonnes. Minus the zero fuel weight of 30.4 tonnes for a full load of pax and you get 4 tonnes of fuel. 02 is a couple of hundred kilos better still.

Now for JER 27, as its the closest in length to SOU, using the same numbers gives you a MTOM of 38.3 tonnes so nearly 4 tonnes better than SOU and over 3 tonnes better than the Flybe limited MTOM. Structural limit is 37.5 tonnes!

For interest GCI 09 is 33.2 and 27 is 35.3. That's enough for a LGW with a full pax load.

I can get the figures for the other airfields you mention but it'll take a day or 2.

[adfly]

Out of interest how would the extra half tonne or so of fuel benefit the E175's range from SOU?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Not a huge amount. Its about 15-20 minutes of holding fuel and maybe 150nm extra range.

[Rivet Joint]

Thanks for your posts Adfly and Jobsagoodun.

Can understand going for the more fuel efficient engine but they only seem to full into that bracket because they are underpowered. The analogy I can see is that its like buying a brand new quiet BMW albeit with a 1 litre engine to replace a largely competent Skoda diesel. Smarts of the old fashioned pure snobbery that jets are better then props! I'm a regular commuter from Sou and although I like getting the 195 over the dash I and most other people don't give a crap as long as we get to our destination. Flybe surely need to keep their niche rather then disown it for the sake of pure snobbery?
:rolleyes:

[osbo]

LSM,

I'm afraid your information regarding 175 performance is still incorrect. Given calm conditions on 20 at SOU with a pressure of 1013 the aircraft does not become limited until 28C. Furthermore, RTOM is only restricted by about 150kg at 30C. Obviously, a breath of wind or some high pressure will improve matters. Landing performance is never an issue.

Maybe you didn't use the optimum parameters when doing your calcs. ie T/o 1, ECS OFF, MACTOW >16% ? Or maybe you were using the paper tables?

Given that Flybe limit the MTOM presumably to reduce nav charges, it's not really such a ground-gripper, is it? Obviously, it's also never going to be a long range bucket and spade jet from any airport given the reduced MTOM. Of course, Flybe could choose to increase the MTOM on some of the fleet should they wish to operate some longer routes from longer runways in the future.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Given that Flybe limit the MTOM presumably to reduce nav charges, it's not really such a ground-gripper, is it?

Never said it was.

No I don't have access to your nice new iPad but I find it hard to believe that it gives you an extra tonne of performance.

How much does ECS OFF give you?

With a full load of punters how far does 3.5 tonnes get you? Would have been nice if it could get as far as the Dash no?

[osbo]

LSM,

“Quote:
Given that Flybe limit the MTOM presumably to reduce nav charges, it's not really such a ground-gripper, is it?

Never said it was.”

I guess I must have misinterpreted your earlier post:

“RJ, trouble is the 175 performance from SOU is sadly lacking, to be kind about it. It's going to struggle to get as far as the Dash with a similar load!”


To do the numbers…..

From your post #88:

“Ignoring the QNH today because I don't know what it was the RTOM at 10C is a gnats cock under 34 tonnes.
Flybe MTOM is 34,999kg. APS is 22,500kg give or take. Max total pax is 88.
88x90 (for cash) = 7920
+ 22,500 = 30,420kg giving you a smudge over 3.5 tonnes of fuel. Enough for Nice? No. That'll probably do you for a Bergerac (maybe) and getting close to an EDI from SOU.
Wait until it gets hotter!”


Let’s just re-work that for RTOM 34,999kg at 28C still air 1013HPa.
34999 – 30420 = 4579 call it 4.5 tonnes for cash.

So, 4.5 Tonnes at 28C, not 3.5T at 10C.

To compare to the D8:

Typical APS 18200 Max pax 78 – x 90kg = 7020 gives a ZFW of 25220kg
Now, at 10C in calm conditions with QNH of 1013 on rwy 20 at SOU the D8 has RTOM of 28727kg, giving a max fuel load of…..3507kg

Bump the temperature up to 28C and you have RTOM of 27850kg, giving a max fuel load of….2630kg

The E175 max fuel load would be 4500kg in either case…..sure, the fuel burn is higher, but not THAT much higher!

Perhaps a better way to look at the 175 would be to say that with an 80% load (70 pax) it can carry about 6000kg of fuel off 20 at SOU in calm conditions on a 30C day.

That takes you a long way into Europe if you put it on a higher yielding route.

The EFB performance app is excellent. It also allows the use of flex in icing conditions. I think the payback time for the ipads will be quite short.

[Rivet Joint]

“RJ, trouble is the 175 performance from SOU is sadly lacking, to be kind about it. It's going to struggle to get as far as the Dash with a similar load!”

Pretty much what Lord Spandex was getting at.
I think we can all do the sums until we are blue in the face the facts seem to be that the 175 offers nothing over the dash and As Adfly mentioned, a lot of flybe's bases (and importantly the ones they have little or no competition at) have short runways. So the question remains, why have they bought the damb things with those engines?

How much greener is the dash over the 175 on a typical route?

[osbo]

RJ,

The quote in your post was a comment made originally to you by LSM!

If you were to read and comprehend "the numbers" in my post you would understand that his understanding of 175 performance was flawed as he doesn't have access to accurate data.

The 175 has no significant performance issues out of SOU. From a practical point of view it out-performs the D8 in terms of range and payload.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Sorry Osbo, my understanding is not flawed! Maybe my figures are a bit out of date following the advent of the iPad perf, granted. Still only available to those who have completed the LMS training;) and I admit it sounds a bit better.

Yes you did misinterpret my post. My point was not one of gettingairborneability rather one of practicality and efficiency when compared to the Dash, which it is replacing.

Even with a Dash load it'll only carry 5.5 tonnes of fuel, same as the Dash and even if you can lift that from SOU you're not getting as far as the Dash full stop. Increasing the RTOM will increase, even further, the operating costs of a 175 as opposed to the Dash.

However, I agree that limiting its passenger load will help. Why not get a 170 in that case...?! AND it's got better runway performance!

[osbo]

LSM

“Sorry Osbo, my understanding is not flawed! Maybe my figures are a bit out of date following the advent of the iPad perf, granted. Still only available to those who have completed the LMS training and I admit it sounds a bit better.”

Sorry, your understanding of 175 performance is flawed because it’s based on data that is totally out of date and doesn’t maximise the aircraft’s capabilities using all of the available means. The new performance data is more than “a bit better” – it’s a lot better. For a start, in the example for 20 at SOU we can now make use of the improved performance offered by restricting the MACTOW to more than 16% - that gives an improvement of more than 500kg in itself. From your previous post I gather you didn’t take account of ECS OFF in your calc – that accounts for another 500kg. Also, each T/O calculation benefits from being a precise calculation rather than using worst case data produced to cover a huge range of variables on one sheet of paper.

“Even with a Dash load it'll only carry 5.5 tonnes of fuel, same as the Dash and even if you can lift that from SOU you're not getting as far as the Dash full stop. Increasing the RTOM will increase, even further, the operating costs of a 175 as opposed to the Dash.”

Just a minute! Using your planning data of 90kg/pax, even without performance restriction the max fuel the fully-loaded Dash can carry is:

MTOM 28998kg – TYPICAL ZFM 25220kg = 3778kg!!, considerably less than the 5.5 tonnes you quote!

As demonstrated in the previous post, using the same average pax weights, the 175 can lift a full load of 88 pax with 4500kg of fuel right up to 28C. The Dash starts to suffer from performance reduction when the temperature rises above 5C (15C on rwy 02), so that by the time the temperature reaches 28C it can only carry 2630kg of fuel (3100kg on rwy 02).

Let’s say that those two maximum fuel loads equate to roughly the fuel required (FOB) for the same sector on each aircraft, though the difference in fuel burn will be smaller.

Then to summarise,

1. with a full pax load where neither aircraft is performance limited, they have broadly similar range, but the 175 is carrying 10 more pax.

2. at SOU, where performance is an issue for the Dash, the 175 maintains its payload/range capability whilst the range of the Dash with max payload reduces significantly as the temperature rises. An EFB performance app for the Dash may improve this in the future, but point 1. above will still apply.

3. At airfields with longer runways the Dash and 175 offer similar range but with the 175 able to carry 10 more pax.

4. There is potential to increase the fuel load of the 175 by up to 2500kg (>2hrs flight time) by an increase to MTOM should it be required in future but that would incur higher nav charges for any aircraft so upgraded. This would considerably extend its range capability from longer runways, but it is not relevant to the discussion here.

As for operating costs, suffice to say that Flybe got a VERY good deal on the 175 and we are told that operating costs of the 175 vs Dash are really not a significant issue. Factor in the expected reliability benefits and much-improved customer experience and I think it will prove to be a big success as a Dash replacement on all but the shorter domestic routes.

It certainly does not suffer from performance problems at SOU, which is where all of this began with the incorrect statement that “trouble is the 175 performance from SOU is sadly lacking, to be kind about it. It's going to struggle to get as far as the Dash with a similar load!”

It's simply not so!

[CaptAirProx]

Hang on osbo, if we are clutching at straws which is what we would be to gain the performance we require the Dash example if not correct.

Taking the Flap 10 Bleeds off Alternate 20 emerg turn @10c wind calm 1013, the RTOM is 29241 . . . . in excess of our company MTOW of 28998.

So therefore on could carry 4021kg of fuel in your theoretically aircraft APS weight.

To make this a balanced argument I thought I should point this one out. Sadly this chart much like your ipad thingy is not always readily available but is published on AIMS!!

Rgds,

[osbo]

CaptAirProx

I don't understand the "clutching at straws" reference. I can't find the chart to which you refer on he Intranet, The 20alt chart gives the numbers I have used. But given that it is correct it would make little difference as it's only giving a couple of hundred kilos and the performance will already be dropping off given the 29241 figure.

I really can't be bothered with arguing the toss over this any further. All I wanted to do was correct the false impression of the 175 given by some of the posts on his thread. Anyone who cares to read and digest the numbers will see that it is a credible replacement for the Dash even at SOU.

Happy New Year!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Osbo,

1. As someone who, until last year, taught aircraft performance I can assure you that my understanding of aircraft performance is not flawed. As I admitted, I am using older figures than the iPad performance.

2. In the interest of a balanced argument why don't you compare the two types using the same performance? Old paper stuff or iPad stuff. Or will you continue to ignore the fact that the Dash performance is going to improve and restore the balance!? I am, of course, assuming that the improvement for the Dash will be largely in line with the 175. A point not provable either way.

3. In which case all of the figures are accurate. IE at 10C the Dash will lift 4.0 tonnes (according to Capt AP) and the 175 4.5 tonnes according to you.

Who's going further?

For the sake of argument and only as a demonstration:

Dash at LRC will use about 800kg/h. TAS of 300kts.
175 at LRC will use about 1400kg/h (generous). TAS of 420kts (generous).

Giving the Dash an extra 150nm at least. Less fuel and less nav charges! So, reliability aside (I agree with you on that point) which is the more economical?

Even if you limit the 175 to 78 pax and carry 5.5 tonnes of fuel and using more sensible FF and TAS of 1500kg/h and 400kts the range is about the same. Still using more fuel and higher nav charges though!

I'm happy for you to show me the figures for the iPad performance for both types because until then your point is moot.

[Rivet Joint]

Apologies Osbo. Guys, I think you can all do as many calculations as you like the fact of the matter is your working very hard to find small details especially you Osbo. I'm sure your figures are very accurate but surely you can agree that when spending half a billion on new equipment the advantages should be as clear as day! Even after all your hard work thats far from the truth so the question remains why? The only answer I seem to arrive at is snobbery.

Plus all this rubbish about reliability, the fact is these props are used pretty rigorously on all sorts of routes, often on short sectors and after a few years they are going to need a bit of tlc. Sure the 175's will to although I don't think they are going to be such a success.

[CaptAirProx]

Osbo - don't worry the 'clutching at straws' reference was not intended to be personal.

If you go onto the Q400 Perf section, ignore the destination charts and go for the link ALL OTHER AIRFIELDS you will find all the non optimum charts for many airfields we operate. It has proved handy to keep a copy of these charts in the back pocket (another metaphor?) so the Dash can get it up - so to speak.

Btw my sole intention with my post was to correct the false impression of the Dash, in that it is overtly limited. It appears not at SOU using the figures I have available to me.

[Desk-pilot]

Good to hear that the 175 is not performance limited out of SOU because as our most successful base it would have been foolish to buy an aircraft that you couldn't use from there.

In terms of why the 175 is better it's a far superior aircraft to travel on - quieter, smoother, less vibration, more room, better seats, faster. Frankly it staggers me that so many people are prepared to entertain the Dash - especially on the longer routes out of SOU (say anything over 1.5 hrs - and that's a lot of routes). Every time I fly as a pax I'm astounded how noisy it is in the cabin with all that resonance from the overhead bins etc.

And that's before you touch on the thorny subject of reliability...

DP

[osbo]

CAP

Thanks for the pointer – strange that such a useful chart isn’t more easily accessible. It gives 02-like perf on 20.

LSM

I don’t for one second doubt your credentials as a performance guru and I’m sure your flight planning is up there with the best too. My reference to your lack of knowledge was solely with regard to 175 performance as used in Flybe today. I intended no offence. I didn’t come here looking for a fight with anyone and I’ve certainly got nothing against the Dash, which has done great things for the company.

I only came out of PPRUNE hibernation to correct the false notion that the 175 is a dog in terms of performance out of SOU. You (unintentionally) gave inaccurate figures in your posts that painted a very poor picture of what the jet could do. You wrongly said that in summer things would be even worse.

Implied in your last post is that you now accept that while the 175 may not be able to travel quite as far out of SOU as the Dash in the winter it will go rather further in the summertime, which is when it matters. Yes, that may change to some degree with the introduction of an EFB in the future, but that’s really not the point – we are talking about the situation today. Reference to operating costs etc are just muddying the waters and a separate topic.

I'll leave it there and slip back into hibernation, I’m sure you’ll want the last word.

Cheers,
O

[Rivet Joint]

Osbo, not a case of having the last word, merely defending ones argument just like you have done in your previous post. This debate does seem to have run its course though, going on your well worked figures I guess we will see in the summer if any new routes open as a result of the 175's addition. If not then the question remains why invest half a billion, why not just get more dash's like porter etc.

[Wycombe]

News release from Flybe today regarding a new Summer Saturday service to NWI. Firmly aimed at the cruise pax market by the looks:

Flybe | Corporate | Media | News archives (http://www.flybe.com/corporate/media/news/1201/12.htm)

I think this will be operated by the Dornier being based in NWI to do the MAN and EXT flights during the week. So, a former Suckling Dornier may be returning to SOU?

[Bournemouth Air]

After deinyng the flights from Southampton they are now online from 23rd June

Flights to Southampton (http://www.vueling.com/EN/cities/flights-to-southampton-SOU.html)

Regards

[adfly]

A quick search reveals NWI will be flown by a Q400. Also, fantastic to hear about Vueling finally adding BCN!!:ok:

So, as it stands...

New Routes S12:

Flybe:

NWI - 1 weekly Q400 (Sat) Summer Seasonal

Thomas Cook:

IBZ - 1 weekly BE E195 (Sat) Summer Seasonal

Vueling:

BCN - 3 weekly A320 (Tue, Thu, Sat) Unknown if Summer only or year round as yet.

[commit aviation]

Adfly:
Not one to doubt your sources but the press release for the NWI route states Loganair plus the timings suggest it will operate NWI-SOU-NWI. As I believe there will only be a Scotairways Do328 aircraft based there for the summer I find it unlikely that it will be a Dash 8. The route is surely a filler at best. Happy to be proved wrong but I can't see the demand for 78 seats with the additional expense of a couple of positioning sectors to be fair!

[Cloud1]

The new route will be operated by the Dornier, not a Q400. I think you have gone just by the ecolable but carry on to the seat assignment and you will see the seatmap.

[adfly]

Cloud1 is right, I didnt think I needed to look beyond the Eco-label!! Oh well, good to see the Dornier back @ SOU, rather than yet another Q400!!

[Rivet Joint]

Great to see some new routes and especially finally the appearance of Barcelona! Will be booking a visit as soon as possible :ok:.

The Norwich one could be interesting, certainly one hell of a drive. Has this route been served before does anyone know?

[canberra97]

Regarding the Norwich route, I work for Royal Caribbean and Celebrity Cruises in the Port of Southampton and we do have a substantial amount of guests that come from the East Anglia area.

Flybe work very closely with Royal Caribbean and Celebrity Cruises with guests entitled to discounted domestic flights and a shuttle coach service directly from outside the airport terminal to the ship.

East Anglia is not covered by our large coach network direct rom the Port of Southampton so this Saturday flight could be a sucess as it is a long journey by car around the M25 or by train where you have to change in London which is not good if you have several large bags to carry.

And at long last the BCN flight has been confirmed by Vueling, I will for sure be flying them this summer!

Lets hope both routes are a succes as they are very welcome additions to the route portfolio at SOU.

[Wycombe]

Indeed Canberra, as I illuded in my original post, BE are very much aiming the NWI flights at cruise pax. I am booked on a P&O cruise myself in April, and although not relevant for me as I am approx. 40 miles from SOU, there were a lot of offers available on flights into SOU from regional airports with BE.

Incidentally, this flight could easily be identified from the outset as a franchised operation (ie, Loganair or Suckling) - the flight number format (BE6xxx) is the giveaway.

[adfly]

The articles regarding the route seem to suggest the SOU-BCN route will be flown by a second A319 which Vueling are due to receive.

[adfly]

Rumors on the Flybe thread of a 2x weekly flight to Tours (TUF) in France from May with a press release due tomorrow! :ok:

[Cloud1]

That would make sense because IIRC Tours inadvertantly featured on their route map a while ago. IT mistake maybe, either way another Frenchie for SOU.

[Rivet Joint]

Obviously any new route is welcome but surely another domestic French route such as Tours will only merely dilute the other existing routes? I guess if it runs on alternative days to Limoges etc then its worth it?

[canberra97]

Flybe need to expand a bit further afield from SOU rather then saturate there French portfolio, maybe try a Lyon or Marseille route but I am surprised they have not ventured into Italy with the likes of Milan, Bergamo, Turin, Venice, Pisa, Florence also further into Germany with Berlin, Hamburg, Munich and also Copenhagen, Madrid, Vienna and Zurich.

I am not saying they should fly to all of these destiantions but they are in reach of SOU and important business and leisure destainations.

Maybe Lufthansa flying to Frankfurt twice daily with a morning and early evening flight and with a mid day Munich flight they seem to be expanding in the UK regions, also an Air Nostrum (Iberia) flight to Madrid perhaps 3 times a week would work.

I work in the cruise industry in the Port of Southampton and a large amount of German guests come to the port to join their ships especially from the Hamburg area, sometimes upto 500 at a time and many fly via LHR or even coach over so I honestly think a Hamburg service would be viable even if it was a summer only route.

Same with Madrid and and the amount of language students that come from Spain and in particulary Madrid to the Southampton/Bournemouth areas, I know they would not exactly make the route viable but with inward and outward tourism as well as business travellers I could see this route work well with flights 2 or 3 times a week.

Same again with Zurich, with Zurish Insurance having their UK HQ being based in Portsmouth, I know this route was previously flown by BA but SOU is a different place now and this is another route I think would work.

Perhaps Easyjet might move there winter only flight from BOH to GVA to SOU they may even expand to further routes if they did and make it a year around operation, I can't see there being any operational performance problems with their A319s from SOU and if not why the case for them to be flying from BOH when surely SOU would be more of an advantage to them as it has a larger cathcment area along with better transport options.

BAA should be looking at expanding apron space and extending the taxiways at SOU.

[JSCL]

Would you really want to sit on a Dash 8 from SOU to Italy? It's a nice idea, but that's not what the Dash8's are really intended to be used for.

[Groundloop]

I can't see there being any operational performance problems with their A319s from SOU

An A319 can lift about 6 tons more payload/fuel out of BOH than SOU (about 8 tons more off 08). As Easy configure their A319s with far more seats that most other operators this additional 20 odd pax + heavy winter baggage could be something to do with it.

[Wycombe]

JSCL said:

Would you really want to sit on a Dash 8 from SOU to Italy?

Well, plenty of people have, as BE some years back operated a Bergamo route on the Dash, and last year I believe Verona was on the Dash aswell.

I find the Dash quite acceptable in terms of space and comfort for a few hours flying, which is what these sectors are. The view is often also more interesting from FL250 than it is from FL370 :ok:

[Rivet Joint]

JSCL - I don't think the majority really care. I personally don't like sitting on a 747 for 12 hours but I do. Its a plane and it gets you there.

Groundloop - Yes but what yeilds do they get at Bournemouth? The point is a plane with 20 less pax probably makes as much money or if not more then a full plane at Bournemouth. Just the facts, don't shoot the messenger.

[darren1]

FRA would surely work on a 50 seater twice a day. Have yet to see a response from BE regarding VY's BCN route.

[Cloud1]

BE already do SOU-HAJ, FRA, DUS albeit not great times or overly business friendly

[canberra97]

I am aware of Flybe flying from SOU to Dusseldorf, Frankfurt and Hannover but with Lufthansa expanding their UK presence I would not be surprised if they would operate from SOU to FRA, with more conveniant timings then Flybe and use their FRA hub for worldwide connections something lacking at SOU since Flybe moved the Paris flight from CDG to ORY although Flybe do fly from SOU to AMS another hub offering worldwide connections from SOU can't be a bad thing especially.

[Groundloop]

Groundloop - Yes but what yeilds do they get at Bournemouth?

For the only easy service from the area I very much doubt the yield would be much different between BOH and SOU. Do people who fly from SOU have more money and are willing to pay more?

Anyway, concentrating on "yield" is not the best way for an airline to make money - the total "revenue" from the flight is more important. Yield management and revenue management are not the same thing.

Plus with 20 more pax you have 20 more people to spend on board.

[Rivet Joint]

'Do people who fly from SOU have more money and are willing to pay more?'

Yes, they are predominately business customers rather then families looking for a cheap getaway.

'Anyway, concentrating on "yield" is not the best way for an airline to make money'

Ok then, with this in mind, why is Bournemouth (the so called proverbial apple waiting to be picked) not being touched with a barge pole by any airline looking to create a base? Maybe this is pure speculation but I reckon it has something to do with that word "yield". Ok having a 90% load factor but if they have all paid £10? :=

[adfly]

BAA seem to be in no hurry to update the website with the new routes! Norwich is on the timetable but there's no sign of Tours and Barcelona or press releases for any of them. Also no sign of the TCX Ibiza on the charter timetable and the TOM flight has yet to be removed. In addition to this Dijon was never added to the timetable and Alghero and Varna are still on it along with the route map, and neither of these has operated for years!!

C'mon BAA, it can't be that hard to put a press release together and update the timetables! :rolleyes:

[adfly]

I noticed on SOU's wiki page a seasonal Lyon has been added by Air France operated by its regional subsidy starting from the 30th June.

I am well aware of how inaccurate wikipedia can be at times but could there be any substance behind this?

After all Lyon seems to a logical and fairly significant French destination to add especially when you consider some of the desinations Flybe fly to in France from SOU!!

[Rivet Joint]

Exactly Adfly. They have a so called media manager or however you want to label it as well! Do these people just sharpen pencils all day? I'm hoping that when they sell the other airports in their portfolio that they start spending some time and money on Southampton :ugh:

[StGermain]

A little disappointed in your last comment Rivet Joint. Perhaps if you had an appreciation of other business priorities, you might not have been quite so harsh or opinionated about the people who work at Southampton. Truth is, BAA will not publish a press release until the airline(s) concerned have formalised their arrival and departure slots with ACL. There might also be other behind the scenes work going on with regard to the financial arrangements for a new start route. So it may be worth thinking a little next time before you write something quite so inappropriate about the marketing people at SOU. :=

[Rivet Joint]

Apologies Stgermain. I don't work for BAA so perhaps jumped the gun a bit in my assumptions. The routes in question are however for sale on the respective airlines sites though. Plus the Varna route has not been operated for 2 years at least :hmm:.

[adfly]

Just searched on the Air France website and SOU-LYS is showing as 1 weekly operated by Regional from 30th June. Details are as follows:

AF5320 LYS-SOU Sat 6:40-7:10 Regional Embraer 190

AF5321 SOU-LYS Sat 7:50-10:15 Regional Embraer 190

[adfly]

In addition to the above mentioned Lyon flights Air France will also start a weekly flight to Nantes:

AF5458 NTE-SOU Saturday 19:40-19:35 Regional Embraer 170

AF5459 SOU-NTE Saturday 20:15-22:15 Regional Embraer 170

[canberra97]

Very welcome news that Air France will once again be operatong from Southampton but I am surprised really as I would have thought these added flights would have been flown by Flybe with at least a more frequent schedule then is planned by Air France, maybe a future Marseille and a return of a Toulouse route from SOU?

[Rivet Joint]

So Southampton is going to have the full range of Embraer jets operating this summer from the 170 upt to the 195 :ok:

Incidently, is there any UK domestic airport with more routes to France then Southampton?

[zantopst]

Hi All,

I checked the prices for this for a flight out during July and returngin back the week later and it was over £700. cannot see anyone using this unless it is in place for some sort of Olympics flights!

[Wycombe]

Rivet Joint asked:

Incidently, is there any UK domestic airport with more routes to France than Southampton?

I would say probably no, maybe Stansted with all their RYR operated routes?

I reckon it's 16 including these latest announcements, made up of 14 from Flybe (if you include CMF which stops after the ski season). Haven't included DIJ as not sure if this is being operated by Eastern this year? I also excluded PUF with Flybe which seems to have not returned after 1 season.

[adfly]

zantopst - I'm guessing the high fares are down to the fact that the class says Premium Economy on the booking engine when you select economy so I'd guess that small error in the booking engine is the main reason for the exceptionally high prices. When I searched Nantes in July this error was not present and the prices were reasonable.

Also, I would expect flights around that time into SOU to be a little more expensive around the Olympics due to SOU's reasonable proximity and good rail links to centeral London.

[jabird]

As a tourist on that thread, congrats to SOU for the LYS route - just as it gets axed from BHX. Not sure of the logic here - obviously agree that SOU has a great portfolio for French routes, and must get a fair few people coming out from Waterloo & the M25 corridors. OK, it's just weekly, in which case why pull the plug completely on us at BHX? Or is this also serving the cruise market?

[darren1]

A good few weeks for SOU with Barcelona, Tours, Nantes and Lyon announced. It's a pity BAA can't be bothered to update their website, but hey it's not Heathrow.
Now we need VCE, FCO and MUC.

[Rivet Joint]

Thanks Wycombe. Can certainly say Southampton has conquered France!

[Aero Mad]

A completely misguided and uninformed view of BAA.

You're very unfair, destinationsky. I think he is trying to point out that because the airport isn't as busy or as big as Heathrow by a long long way, it will have a smaller staff who are responsible for such things. Before you accuse, you could perhaps think of what else a poster might mean.

[zantopst]

Its all a bit academic now as the Vueling and Regional flights (Lyon and Nantes) are on the BAA Southampton website.. To be fair to them they were very quick to put the Regional airlines flight on so maybe they were waiting to make one change for all rather than 2 sets of changes to the site.

[adfly]

After all the new routes it seems a shame to lose a fairly long running one from SOU! But the Daily IOM-SOU-BRU-SOU-IOM ends on the 28th of this month however from SOU only the IOM leg will be dropped so I assume space has been found in the schedule for a SOU based Q400 to operate BRU.

I am quite surprised to not see the route be reduced to around 4 weekly first or even it being returned to a seasonal route. It seems like a big jump between 6/7 weekly Q400 flights to 0!!

Hopefully Manx2 may see this as an opportunity to launch either SOU or BOH-IOM on smaller aircraft (D228/J31) at either the same or higher frequency - Double-daily is still only 38 daily seats vs 78 for a Q400 and having a choice of flights should appeal to business passengers too.

[BOHEuropean]

Believe SOU-BRU will be axed, too. It's not currently bookable on Flybe's website for the summer season. May as well send the free aircraft... elsewhere...

[Wellington Bomber]

Southampton - Brussels was succesfully operated by Eastern 3 daily for a number of years before the bully of Flybe decided to trample all over it, lower the service and now dump it.

Well done Flybe, you set of t******

[Wycombe]

....and before that it was a BaCon route, so has been around a while (I remember taking that route on the 145 about 12 years ago).

[Groundloop]

I've flown BRU-SOU in a Loganair Jetstream many years ago!

However most of the recent posts about this route refer to the good old days before Eurostar services to Brussels came down to only 1hr 50m - right to the centre of Brussels, not to Zaventam out on the outskirts.

Maybe many ex-pax from the catchment area north of SOU now find it quicker and easier to go by train.

In recent years Eurostar has absolutely hammered Paris and Brussels air traffic.

[Wycombe]

You make a good point Groundloop - I tend not to think about trains too much, and especially the speed of Eurostar.

Also relevant here might be the rumour over on the Flybe thread that they are about to enter into a deal with Brussels Airlines for wet-lease of some Q400's this Summer?

[adfly]

It would be nice to see Brussles Airlines take up the BRU route 2-3 daily and they and their *A partners off good connection possibilities, certainly better than AF/Skyteam via Paris Orly which is the only euro 'Hub' SOU is directly linked to with codeshares etc. I could see SN using another BMI E145 for the route if they could, as per the EMA, BRS and NCL routes that currently operate. Although if the timings are good I can see a twice daily flight on an RJ85/Leased Q400 working well.

As for IOM I think Manx2 would fit the route very well as they can offer more flexibility but with fewer overall seats if not maybe Flybe will re-instate it as a seasonal route, most likely at a lower frequency.

[Flitefone]

I travel from Bournemouth to Brussels at least once/month. My options are usually Flybe, BA from LHR and Eurostar.

I flew Flybe last Monday, there were fewer than twenty pax and it was expensive (Flybe is usually pricey for any day/time/route that suits business). The Brussels flight times from SOU are generally not very convenient, dont get you into down town Bru before about 14:30 local, by which time most of the business day is gone, and you have to pay a crazy price to get the business lounge thrown in at SOU - it doesnt come as standard with the flybe frequent flyer which is a mistake when compared to the competition.

Eurostar tickets are usually outrageously priced often more than 300 euro one way. But its comfortable and fast, and almost always full and the seats are big enough for working.

More often than not I fly from LHR, on BA. Its usually less than half Eurostar price, has a good dep time for business in BRU, is always full. And BA has a decent lounge in T5, where the breakfast is good, the papers and magazines are free, and the delays are no worse than the Flybe record.

[Cloud1]

Well done Flybe, you set of t******


Well thanks for the compliment there, you should hear what they say about you ;)

Again, we go back to the fact that if Eastern had operated such a good product why did all there passengers go to BE when they moved in with the route. Simple, cost nothing to do with service levels. People moan about BE fares but I never remember Eastern being all that cheap.

In addition to Groundloops comments, timings I feel are an issue with the SOUBRU but realistically there are only so many departures you can get airborne first thing in the morning. Those that do serve SOU several times a day and quite often include an early morning and evening rotation are worth it and bring in the money so it makes sense to prioritise these. There are no free stands, to my knowledge, so the only other way to get a reasonably timed BRU would be to operate it from BRU (as they do with the DUSBHX am)

BE do not have a huge presence at BRU (yet) with only the MAN and SOU routes. Hopefully as time goes on and the airline expands the route may return - thats if Eastern dont pick it up again 3 times a day of course.

[Aero Mad]

People moan about BE fares but I never remember Eastern being all that cheap.

I think the point made was that Eastern provides exceptional service at extortionate prices, whereas Flybe provides questionable service at prices which are occassionally cheap but more often than not rather expensive for what they offer (and without luggage etc.)

[11K-AVML]

In recent years Eurostar has absolutely hammered Paris and Brussels air traffic. Possibly combined with BE's long-winded climb to cruise.
As a colleague told me, by the time they turn the seat belt sign off and allow electronic devices to be used they have about 10 minutes before having to turn them off again.

Another now decides that whilst the train may take longer at least they can use their laptop for the whole journey meaning very little down-time.

Will be interesting to see what happens to AMS once Eurostar is extended up that way and when DeutschBahn comes to the UK.

[Wycombe]

Possibly combined with BE's long-winded climb to cruise.


Not sure that's fair - in my experience (purely as pax), the Dash (ATC permitting) can nip up to FL250 pretty quickly - for an aeroplane with propellors ;-)

[11K-AVML]

That's true, but how long before they let you use electronic equipment?

[Wellington Bomber]

Wycombe

I think he means that with the London TMA there are a lot of step climbs and not just blasting up to 25000ft.

[Wellington Bomber]

Aero mad

Thankyou, for your interpreted rant of mine


Cloud 1

If Eastern did try it again, how long before Flybe came back on just so that nobody else could profit, not very long would it

[Andrew R]

I don't get why it's more expensive to fly to Southampton than to most of the London airports. Is it because FlyBe have a monopoly on basically all the routes and can charge what they like? For example last Monday, I paid £45 to fly from Gatwick to Belfast city single on Flybe, the same route from Southampton was over £150 single. I don't get this. Surely Gatwick is far better connected than Southampton is and thus flights from Gatwick should be a premium.

Really hopping Bournemouth can give Southampton a run for it's money and attract a few Locos like Easyjet and now Aer Lingus.

[StGermain]

Andrew R...it's simply down to the fact that Southampton is not 'regulated', unlike the majority of London airports. Given also that Southampton sits in a relatively affluent catchment area, has comparitively high operating costs per landing and per departing passenger and FlyBe have relatively little in the way of competition on the majority of their routes, FlyBe charge what the market will bear. You would only need one other competitive loco to start MAN or EDI from Southampton or BOH and suddenly the FlyBe fare structure would be reviewed, certainly on UK domestic services at the very least. FlyBe have been a real success story for SOU since they started in 2003 and have made an awful lot of hay while the sun has shone (so to speak) but SOU must be nervous of 90%+ passengers with one, albeit successful, airline.

[Andrew R]

Thank you very much for the explanation StGermain :-)

[Groundloop]

it's simply down to the fact that Southampton is not 'regulated', unlike the majority of London airports.

Please explain what you mean by "regulated" in this context? As you rightly say it is simply a question of competition (or lack of) that allow Flybe to charge what they do. But what has "regulation" go to do with it?

[Rivet Joint]

Arn't the airport fees quite high at Southampton too though?

[StGermain]

Groundloop...Regulated = a maximum permitted income from aeronautical charges. By that I mean that some, not all, London airports have their aeronautical incomes capped. It is therefore much cheaper to land at, for example, Gatwick than it is to land at Southampton at their current, published tariff. Southampton is not much different to many other regional Airports, just more expensive than some of the London catchment.

[adfly]

Air France:

New Routes:

Nantes (NTE) (1x weekly E170)
Lyon (LYS) (1x weekly E190)

Both routes are operated by 'Regional' and start on Sat 30th June operating until the beginning of September.

Aurigny:

Alderny - Much the same as last year with the usual explosion of end of week flights at peak times!

Blue Islands:

Guernsey - Pretty much as it was last year - around 3x daily all on J31/32's.
Jersey - The first two flights are as last year (J31/32's) but the evening flight has been upgraded to an ATR 42 500 and operates daily ex. Saturday.

Eastern:

Aberdeen - Operates around twice daily for the Summer, a reduction compared to previous years with the weekday flights all down as J41's and the Sunday flight via DTV as a S2000.
Dijon - Not currently bookable or on the SOU sites schedules but this routes was put on sale quite late last year and it remains on the route map so we will have to wait and see! If it returns I would expect it would be as last year - 3x per week on a J41.

Flybe:

Some of the domestic and longer running regional French routes seem to have some reletively small reductions in frequency although there are no really significant changes.

New Routes:

Tours (TUF) (2x weekly Q400) Starts 16th May
Norwich (NWI) (1x weekly Loganair/Suckling Airways D328) Starts 19th May

Dropped Routes:

Pau (2x weekly E95) The slack seems to have been taken up by extra flights to Beziers and Palma (Both up to 3x weekly)
Brussles (6x weekly Q400) Ends 28th February
Isle of Man (6x weekly Q400) Ends 29th February (Aircraft flew IOM-SOU-BRU-SOU-IOM) hence why both routes are being dropped.
Salzburg (1x weekly Q400) Has operated for the last couple of Summers but no sign of it this year, will almost certainly return in time for the Ski season!!

Skybus:

Much the same as last year 3x weekly rising to 6 in the peak season with most off-peak flights operating via NQY.

Thomas Cook:

New route - Ibiza (IBZ) (1x weekly BE E195)

PMI and MAH both return as well meaning all 3 or the balearic isles are now served from SOU!!

Thomson:

Have dropped their weekly SOU-PMI flight, was down to the operated by Flybe but they have decided to focus on their more major airports.

Vueling:

New route - Barcelona (BCN) (3x weekly A319) Starts 23rd June currently bookable until mid-September.

Well we've all been waiting a while for this one!! :ok:

[adfly]

It looks like Flybe are planning on using a GLA based E175 to operate ~3 of the weekdaily flights this summer which is a notable increase in capacity and good news for those who prefer jets (not saying there is anything wrong with a Q400, it just seems some people see the advanced 6 blade propellors and think they are about to get on a streched DC-3 with the wing in the wrong place!!)

There will also be a few on the MAN flights flown by a MAN based E175, currently I belive there is only 1 on a Sunday which also operates a Ski Charter to somewhere in France.

I suppose this brings up this issue again: BAA have new stands east of the apron planned in the Master Plan, of which some were meant to be completed in 2010, so with the E175's being added to some of the larger domestics and it being fairly likely that Flybe will be looking to base a few at SOU, either to replace some Q400's or possibly 1 or 2 for growth. How will they fit?! Stands 1-5 will have the three based E195 + visiting E175's/195's along with Vueling taking up two stands and Air France E170/190's this year to cope with!

Hopefully BAA will finally see sense and what with Flybe introducing the E175 in greater numbers to SOU they will hopefully realise that they should probably be starting work on these planned stands pretty soon! And while they are at it a northen Runway exit/taxiway to cut the backtacking issues would be lovely.

[OltonPete]

Per GDS

4 x 175's a day on Mo & Fr from GLA with 3 the other weekdays.

Depart GLA 06.50, 10.50, 14.50 & 18.40

Starts 1st July per GDS

Pete

[adfly]

I believe that leaves only the early morning SOU departure as a Q400 and also one of the evening flights is an E195 presumably based in SOU.

[Rivet Joint]

Hit the nail on the head Adfly. No doubt they have planned the operations such that they only have 3/4 in at the same time though the cheapskates!

I know we are in a recession and passenger numbers are down but BAA just sold Gatwick, about to sell Edinburgh and will eventially be selling Stanstead so surely there is enough in the bank for long overdue improvements to Sou airside? The backtracking of the runway is an absolute joke!!!!!! :ugh:

[compton3bravo]

You must be joking rivet joint - Ferrovial the Spanish owners of BAA owe billions yes billions to banks so doubtful if any money available for Southampton considering what they are spending at Heathrow.

[RNWY03]

This is all good news for SOU - no official mention has been made of any possible Olympic related charters/visitors as yet?

[Rivet Joint]

as do most companies, they still set aside a budget for improvements. Surely logic dictates that the share set aside for the sold of airports can be redirected to the remaining ones? Sou airside is as bad as it gets in this country.

[davidjohnson6]

The budget for the normal running and upkeep of each airport presumably comes largely from its own revenues - i.e. money spent on keeping Southampton going should come from the fees paid by airlines flying to/from Southampton, who in turn collect it from pssengers buying ticket to/from Southampton.

If BAA are going to invest in significant infrastructure at an airport, it will need to be compared against potential projects at all other airports owned by BAA

If an airport consistently cannot pay for itself, and the CAA refuse to change the fees that an airport is allowed to charge its customers, then the airport has to cut its costs so that it becomes profitable.

BAA used to spend money on the upkeep of Gatwick, funded from fees paid by airlines at Gatwick. Those airport usage fees are no longer paid to BAA.

[adfly]

I believe Eastern have put SOU-DIJ on sale for this summer, as per last year so 3x per week on a J41.

[BAladdy]

Nothing showing as yet on easternairways.com

[adfly]

It is loaded on their french website though seemingly not bookable, how strange!?

[jabird]

I don't get why it's more expensive to fly to Southampton than to most of the London airports.

Is the runway also not a limiting factor? I note VY are bringing in a 319, but would there not be weight restrictions to some destinations, and even more so with a 738?

This must make SOU very unattractive as a base for the main loco players, whilst BE's fleet size is also suited to thinner routes + higher frequencies on the more popular ones, which suits the relatively small catchment area. There might be a lower cost base at BOH, but SOH is much closer to the centres of both Southampton and Portsmouth.

As for the comments re: Eurostar - I would have thought anyone who would previously have used Waterloo would find the new time savings are offset by the need to cross over to St Pancras. Ashford may work as a park and ride, but if we're comparing dead time for plane v train, driving is the deadest time!

I would have certainly expected a market for SOU-BRU to be viable, but BE obviously have done the maths.

[adfly]

I think there is a fair market for both SOU-BRU and SOU-IOM its just Flybe have the wrong sized aircraft and a lack of onward connections and flexibility at the IOM and BRU ends. Flybe have taken over both routes, flooded them with cheap seats but it has not worked out for them.

Loganair could probably make a daily SOU-IOM work on either a S340 or Suckling D328 or even Manx2 with a couple of D228/J31 flights each day meaning there is more flexibility but less overall capacity.

Its a similar story with BRU, I could see Eastern covering the Business market well with 2-3 daily J41 flights and the ability to have an early morning flight and offer day returns should make the higher frequency viable. Another alternative would be Brussles Airlines flying around 2 daily flights on an RJ85, quite an increase in seats from the Flybe flight but the extra flexibility and availability of a decent range of SN/Star connections via BRU would both help especially considering the fact that currently SOU is not linked to any of the more major European hubs with codeshares etc!

[jabird]

currently SOU is not linked to any of the more major European hubs with codeshares etc!

Well I'm sure it has been asked before, but why not? Is the preference for ORY over CDG aimed at competing with €*'s city centre destination? Given the BE-AF tie up, would they not gain a more balanced mix of feeder and ptp by reverting back to CDG?

What about AMS? KL serve some pretty small UK regionals, why not SOU?

[Wellington Bomber]

adfly

watch this space about Eastern and Brussels

[adfly]

Interesting! Although not really surprising as I belive it did fairly well for them before Flybe 'robbed' the route by adding too much capacity. I just hope they realise that and don't try and do the same again. On a seperate note would that mean an aircraft needs to be based in SOU again as they don't fly to BRU from anywhere else and a 'W' pattern from the current ABZ flights would mess up the schedules for ABZ?

[adfly]

As predicted by Wellington Bomber Eastern will takeover the Southampton to Brussles route from the 16th April daily ex. Saturday.

Press Release: Southampton Airport: Brussels route to continue as Eastern Airways steps in (http://www.southamptonairport.com/about-us/media-centre/press-releases/brussels-route-to-continue-as-eastern-airways-steps-in)

It has also been rumored on the Flybe thread and elsewhere that the weekly summer Flybe/Loganair/Suckling NWI-SOU route may have been canned before it has even started!

[Serenity]

Have heard that Flybe have cancelled their Sou/Bru route from may!

[BAladdy]

T3's schedule for BRU now available

T34475 SOU 10:55 - 13:10 BRU J41 45
T34475 SOU 11:10 - 13:25 BRU J41 12
T34475 SOU 13:00 - 15:15 BRU J41 3
T34475 SOU 15:55 - 18:00 BRU S20 7

T34476 BRU 13:40 - 13:55 SOU J41 45
T34476 BRU 13:55 - 14:10 SOU J41 12
T34476 BRU 15:45 - 16:00 SOU J41 3
T34476 BRU 18:30 - 18:35 SOU S20 7

[jabird]

It has also been rumored on the Flybe thread and elsewhere that the weekly summer Flybe/Loganair/Suckling NWI-SOU route may have been canned before it has even started!

It was a rather bizarre route in the first place imho.

[adfly]

BAA reports an increase in passenger of 4.5% compared to last year, which suggests that there is still an increase with the extra day taken into account. Let's hope this continues into the summer!!

BAA press release: BAA Airports: February 2012 traffic figures - BAA's airports (http://www.baa.com/media-centre/press-releases/february-2012-traffic-figures-_-baa%27s-airports)

[options770]

I have flown the SOU to BRU route for the past 3 years and watched the passenger numbers dwindle as the schedule became less attractive.
In the days of the early morning and evening flights we used to have 60 pax, this has reduced to around 20 now the flight is inconvenient around midday.
With the closure of the route at fairly short notice at the end of Feb, the alternatives via LHR or Eurostar are a pain, so far for me BA has failed 2 out of 2 on timing with delays in both directions coupled with a nightmare journey from Gosport via ferry, train and bus to get to the airport. Eurostar from St Pancras is a disaster why did they move from Waterloo?

I welcome the return of Eastern to the route which should fit their smaller aircraft. Only time will tell.

[adfly]

NWI-SOU no longer bookable or even in the system so I think we can assume it won't be operating this summer! Not exactly a huge loss, and it was an unusual route aimed at a very small niche market and the frequency and timings made it inconvinient for any other travel.

[leisurelad]

I know this has probably been discussed before but i wonder what the performance range is of the following aircraft in max pax capacity and say 20kg bag each.

737-300/400/700
A319
A320

Maybe even an MD80

Thanks

[leisurelad]

Is anyone able to give me an answer to the below as been searching about on the net and getting some odd answers !!

Thanks

[adfly]

The Loganair Norwich flight has definatly been dropped, there is no longer any advertising and it cannot be booked.

It also looks like Dijon is unlikely to make a return this Summer, despite what Eastern said last year as it is not bookable or on the Summer Timetable, which can be seen here: http://www.southamptonairport.com/static/Southampton/Downloads/PDF/FlightTimetable_SOU.pdf

No changes to IBZ, TUF or BCN although the flight times for Lyon and Nantes have been changed (although the PDF timetable does not currently show this); Lyon is now late morning/midday and Nantes is mid afternoon which is more attractive for leisure travellers and also the few who may use them to connect to/from!

Also Southampton remains on the Thomson website and drop-down menu although it is not bookable or operating but it makes me think they may try and re-instate PMI next summer if they can find an aircraft free to operate it.

Finally, its probably just a sign of the times and Flybe's dominance but I couldn't help but notice that there are only three routes with two airlines operating (JER, GCI and PMI, if you count the 'TCX' flight)!

[Malthouse]

Reports of a possible fire at Sou, anyone got any hard info?

[adfly]

Apparently it was something going wrong in the control tower, however it was sorted out fairly quickly so any disruption was minimal.

Passengers down 1.7% in March at ~127,900 although so far this year passengers are up by 0.5% and rolling 12 months show an increase of 2.8% to ~1,764,100 passengers. SOU seems to be holding up fairly well considering the way the economy is and I expect to see more notable increases in the peak Summer period with the Olympics and new routes from Air France, Flybe, Thomas Cook and Vueling.

http://www.baa.com/static/BAA_Airports/Downloads/PDF/BAA_Traffic_Summary-March2012.pdf

[JSCL]

Was just reading about the Jetstream issue at SOU the other day - Incident: Eastern JS41 near Southampton on Apr 20th 2012, anti icing problem (http://avherald.com/h?article=44e55f5c&opt=4097) - putting the issue itself aside, astonished to see only 10pax? Are eastern going to regret saving this route for you SOU guys?

[planenut321]

T3 really don't need a high LF to get a good yield. I was told a few years ago they need a mere 6 PAX per JS41 (LF = 20%) flight to break even.

[JSCL]

6 Pax to BE on a JS41? I think someone got some math wrong somewhere. On a route like SOU-BRU, I'd suggest you'd need a little more than 6 pax to BE. But heyho, I don't know how T3 operates, 6 pax could well be their BE point.

[planenut321]

Well yeah that was a few years ago... with fuel prices, APD now it will be a little higher but you will be surprised. Have you seen their one way fares? :ooh:

[JSCL]

Oh yes I have, ~£150+ everytime I've checked.

[Andrew R]

Nearly as high as BE fares then...

[adfly]

I've heard BE themselves can break even with around 25-30 pax on a Q400 which was one of the reasons why they didn't keep any Q300's or E145's. Although APD and the economy has probably bought up that figure a little recently!

[options770]

I think the low number of passengers on the Brussels flight will improve. Many regulars like me who book well in advance have flights with other airlines and will revert to T3 when they are exhausted.

Most of the others I have spoken to were not aware that the route had reopened, but they are now. Today will be my first flight on the renewed route and I am booked until the end of June for my weekly commute.

[Rivet Joint]

Makes it all the more amzing that they are getting rid of many of them Adfly. What do we know :rolleyes:

[adfly]

Flybe's winter schedule released today, no new routes so far however EDI is apparently getting a based E175 to operate some of the EDI-SOU flights. Good to see the major domestic routes being upgraded although as always it again raises the question about what BAA are going to do about stands!!

[StGermain]

ADFLY: the problem isn't about BAA delaying on building or modifying stands, it's the age old problem of the dominant airline (in this case Flybe) not wanting the airport capacity opened up to competing airlines.

[adfly]

St Germain - I do see your point about Flybe and their monoplay but you must remember that it is Flybe need extra stands more than anyone else as they are replacing most of the Q400's with E175's, which can only use stands 1-5 at the moment, and the 3 based E195' can only use 2-5.

When you add in Air France needing to use 1-5 for its Nantes flight (E170) and Vueling's A319 taking up either 2/3 or 3/4 3 times a week in the Summer then it is not hard to see that there is little space for flights on larger/taller aircraft to be added.

Its also worth noting that the CRJ700/900/1000 provide broadly similar capacities to the E-Jets (E195 excluded) while being able to use the Northern stands due to their low tails. Brit Air, Air Nostrum and Lufthansa Cityline all have large CRJ fleets which could work well from SOU from an operational point of view.

Finally the Air France Lyon service, following it time change has been changed to an E145, quite a big difference in capacity vs the E190! Nantes is unchanged aircraft wise with the first flight being an E145 and the rest on E170's.

[Rivet Joint]

Anyone know any more about the lighting being updated on the stands?

Perhaps this will lead to them finally being enlarged?

[destinationsky]

Stand lights are being upgraded to LED lights. LED's massively improve the spread of light across the stand and will also improve the stand marking visibility in wet conditions.

[Rivet Joint]

Thanks Destinationsky. Guess its one step in the right direction :ok:

[Serenity]

Lots of flights through to the continent with Flybe and many passengers connecting through from domestic flights, yet the poor passengers have to go all the way through the terminal and back through security queues again!!

No transfer gate!!! Why??

Good old Southampton, regional limited thinking and planning as always!! :ugh:

[Wellington Bomber]

Try this one

Operated as flight deck BRU -SOU had to get off a/c go through customs with passengers, go through security again and board the same aircraft I had left 20 mins earlier

[adfly]

It won't come anytime soon but I think what Southampton really needs is a new, larger terminal or failing that, a full second floor plus extension for the existing one, although that would probably be quite difficult going by the shape of the current terminal. That way a proper connections route can be set up, arrivals can be expanded with more space and desks to save people waiting outside. More checking desks could be added, possibly with some upstairs and there could be an additional security lane upstairs along with a couple more shops and more cafe space and general seats!

I say this because quite often the existing terminal gets very full especially when lots of flights are going out quite close to each other, i.e. early mornings and weekends when all of the holiday-based flights operate. Also, an upstairs departure lounge would enable a few more gates to be made possibly even with airbridges for stands 2,3 and 4. Obviously such an upgrade would only be worth doing if the additional taxiways further up the runway were added, along with more stands for larger/taller aircraft.

Finally, on a more realistic note, BAA could use the old station carpark as an additional short-stay option and this may even allow them to reposition and lengthen northwards the multi-story, bringing more spaces and leaving me room for larger/longer stands in the northen area resolving the height issues for aircraft such as the E-jets.

But, like I said at the start of the post, I can't see any of this happening too soon!

[Rivet Joint]

Basically BAA need to pull their finger out on the airside aspect of Southampton!

The fact that arriving and departing aircraft have to do half their taxing up and down the runway whilst all other traffic waits is surely unheard of anywhere outside of a 3rd world country? :ugh:.

Their master plan shows taxiways but doubt they will be built until they finally admit they are going to have to build a 2nd terminal on the north side. :hmm:

[destinationsky]

Take a look on google maps and have a look at the geography of the airport. An extended taxi way is not as simple as laying down an extra 900m of asphalt. You would need to move the existing fuel farm for starters to get an extension to the North. This would involve moving pipes and tanks and all sorts of other infrastructure. You would also need to move the existing ILS equipment to the opposite side of the runway. Whilst all of this is happening you would need to provide contingency for loss of these services again costing money. All of a sudden a few million turns into tens of millions. Who would pay for that? Pax certainly won't due to the government already piling on good ol APD and all the other taxes.

The alternative is to build an extended taxiway on the other side... You then introduce a risk of an extra runway crossing which means more risk of runway incursions with more risk of accidents...

Cambridge and London CIty require a backtrack along with a few other airports in this country.

Ideas of new terminals and extended runways etc are great ideas but you need high pax numbers to justify the massive cost involved. BAA is a large company and profitable but everyone seems to forget that the investment money ultimately comes from the customer... If pax numbers are low you either make the best of what you have or you raise the cost to the consumer and face losing them... Regardless of whether or not BAA have sold Edinburgh and about to inherit millions from its sale, each airport is in control of its own budget and raising its own profits so it's not as simple as sharing the sale money.

[Groundloop]

The fact that arriving and departing aircraft have to do half their taxing up and down the runway whilst all other traffic waits is surely unheard of anywhere outside of a 3rd world country?

Quite a bit of taxying on the runway goes on at Luton!

[adfly]

destinationsky - a fair point regarding a full length taxiways although I was thinking more along the lines of the one detailed in the master plan, which was positioned around halfway between the existing one and the end of the runway, presumably to avoid the stated issues and costs. It would also only require ~100m of tarmac so should not cost too much and would greatly reduced the problems with backtracking and holding at busier times.

[Rivet Joint]

As Adfly has pointed out the masterplan on Southampton's site seems to suggest that a full length taxi way could be built without the movement of any other infrustructure. At the moment there is only one way on and off the runway :eek:. 100m of tarmac at the end of the stands would save countlless time over the course of a day.

You are right with your assumption on LCY but then reclaiming land from the sea is just about the most expensive thing you can do. Plus cambrige is hardly getting the few hundred rotations a day that Sou is getting in all due respect.

The fact that Sou's main source of business by a country mile is investing in aircraft that can only be accomoated on 4 of Sou's stands tells me that the issue needs to be adressed.

You're certainly right that a 2nd terminal is pie in the sky though!

[Serenity]

Regular deals being held on stand while the aircraft on several mile final comes in to land, and then taxis in to stand.
Seems also regular for only one, maybe a max of two aircraft allowed to push or taxi at any time.
Me thinks SOU has reached capacity and air traffic being ultra cautious and the new push back points only slows it all down more!!

[adfly]

A quick look at the departures today shows basically every flight leaving late (as with most days (especally with Flybe!)), I know its been mentioned over and over but the extra taxiway/runway entrance/exit would also sort this out, as there is comfortably room for 4 or 5 aircraft to wait to depart from Runway 20 or after arriving on 02 to wait for a stand without blocking any of the stands. This should not be a problem up the other end as there is already room for around 4 aircraft to wait without getting in the way.

[Heathrow Harry]

since when did BAA ever invest in making flights easier???

they are a company who rents out shop space, restaurants & car parking areas

[adfly]

Phase 2 of BAA's masterplan as detailed in your post hasn't been swung into action yet - currently theres only 3 shops, 2 of which are Whsmiths and the other which is Duty Free!! However knowing BAA they will probably build about 20 more shops over stands 1-5 soon!!! :E:ugh:

[RNWY03]

showing today on the BAA SOU arrivals is T37401 from Dijon departing as the T37402 back to Dijon....but Dijon is still not showing on the Eastern sites as bookable?

[CaptAirProx]

It is all very well building new taxiways etc but the ATC system in place needs to know how best to make the most of such assets. Personally I feel that this is not the case with the current system.

If ATC are too risk adverse to place a departing aircraft infront on an aircraft on a 7mile final or allow a late landing clearance, what hope does the airport have.

[adfly]

Dijon has been coming up on the live flight info ever since most of the peak summer routes started, at the same times as last year but it is always shown as cancelled, which probably means thats its been loaded onto the schedule as operating but Eastern must've decided to cancel it at the last minute presumably just before it could be loaded into their booking engine. Or somebody has just forgotten about it!

It does seem unusual for Eastern to not be operating it this year though as it apparently did well last year with loads mostly in the 20's (On a J41), plus it was extended and Eastern also said that the route would return for this year in April!

[adfly]

Looks like the chances of KLM operating there own flights from SOU has gone down the drain, but a partnership with Flybe is quite a logical option and will hopefully boost the AMS route from SOU, I already notice for the winter the early morning flight is now an E195!

Link: Southampton Airport: Southampton Airport goes long haul (http://www.southamptonairport.com/about-us/media-centre/press-releases/southampton-airport-goes-long-haul)

[BOHEuropean]

It's quite regular for the E195 to go to AMS in the winter on the AM flight.

[TCAS FAN]

Destinationsky/Adfly

Local and corporate BAA management have a history of missed opportunities. Firstly when the original airport site was being sold off it was done so in three packages, the current airport site, the area including the Post Office Building/Premier Inn etc and the northeast corner where the VOR is sited. They dismissed the Post Office building area as too expensive-where better to extend the current Terminal and apron, not build a remotely sited new one. Second time around they bought the northeast corner-compare the cost of a new Terminal there (especially duplication of services) and the logistics of transferring passengers between terminals. It will need either be a costly tunnel around the north runway end-caution for the water table and the natural gas main, or a road with traffic lights due to proximity of the runway.

During the time that the runway was being re-surfaced, with the asphalt plant on site a figure of £40K was mentioned to add the missing taxiway link at the north end of TWY "A" to intersect the runway about 400 metres south of 20 threshold. Not ideal but would have minimised the backtrack on 20, permitted most landing traffic on 02 to vacate without backtracking, remove the log-jam around TWY "B" permitting pushbacks from Stands 7-9 with traffic at the 20 hold, and permitting arrivals to get onto Stands 7-12. The good folks in ATC (run at the time by BAA) pleaded and pleaded to go ahead, money spent on other cosmetic projects in the terminal building.

The cost of a new link now? Probably in the millions? May be Flybe can sponsor it after they do their sums on what the delays cost them?

[Serenity]

Waiting on stand for 10-15 minutes is not uncommon, especially as several flights are scheduled to depart at the same times.
Also regularly wait on stand for the aircraft at 7 miles to land and taxi past. Seems a maximum of two aircraft only to taxi after the pushback incident.

Also the amount of fuel wasted holding to depart and wasted by Solents extended vectoring and the limited airspace available, must run a hefty bill for Flybe.

Compared to larger airports like Lgw and man, the movement of air traffic seems very slow, inefficient and cautious.

[Rivet Joint]

Great news on the code share with klm, can fly to lax from sou for less than LHR!

Definitely signs of improvement lately, I guess we will see the standard duty free/departure lounge make over at the expense of the long standing stands/taxi way issue :ok:

[adfly]

Vueling has extended Barcelona and it now operates until the end of October (last bookable day on their website is Saturday the 20th) :ok:

[adfly]

Looks as if Air France/Regional have pulled its Saturday flights to Lyon and Nantes which were meant to start this Saturday (30th June) as they are no longer on any of the schedules or bookable.

On a brighter note Vueling launched Barcelona last Saturday (23rd June), does anyone know what the forward bookings are like numbers wise? I would expect them to be fairly good seen as the route has been extended to October and it has also been well advertised in the area.

[hampshireandy]

My flight from SOU-FRA in Oct has been cancelled due to Flybe pulling off the route from early Sept for 'commercial reasons' . I know the flight times were not ideal but anyone know the real reason?
Brussels earlier this year, now Frankfurt. Seems Flybe deems flights to regional French airports more important, and presumably a better 'earner' than flights to major european cities.
Amsterdam next maybe?

[JC25]

What do you mean, the real reason?

I'd have thought commercial reasons would be the real reason... Athough it covers a whole host of possibilities you're unlikey to find out the exact soecifuc thinking behind the change. They have a limited number if aircraft and if the aircraft that operates the SOU-FRA route can make more money deployed elsewhere then of course that is the right thing for BE to do.

With regard to AMS I doubt that will get the chop anytime soon as they've just started a code share agreement with KLM and the route is 3x daily.

It's also worth noting that Flybe have pulled out of FRA altogether now after dropping the long running MAN and BHX connections last year. Clearly Flybe don't see much success at FRA these days so are moving the aircraft to better money making routes.

[hampshireandy]

Ok then, the 'specific' reasons. You have probably covered them in your post. Room at SOU for a daily Lufthansa Frankfurt service maybe?

[adfly]

You'd most likely at least need a morning and evening flight which would then allow day returns and a good choice for onward connecting flights. 12 weekly (2 weekday 1 weekend) on a CRJ700 would probably work pretty well if the times were right and it was well advertised. Could also see 6/12 flights a week to Munich working well, it a major city currently unserved and again LH could offer a good choice of connections through their hub.

[davidjohnson6]

I believe that in 2009, Lufthansa closed their route to Bristol.
Anyone want to make a case for LH starting service from Southampton to Frankfurt, when Bristol, Leeds, Newcastle and Glasgow do not currently have a direct flight to FRA ?

[adfly]

Well first we have LH's huge hub @ FRA and the only other 'hub' operation from SOU is a KLM codeshare on the Flybe AMS flights, whereas the other airports you mention all have links to at least 2 major hubs by other airlines (BA, KL, AF, SN etc). I also think people are generally more likely to book a connecting flight if it is all on the same airline rather than just a codeshare.

Secondly there is obviously a fair amount of O&D between the two cities as the route has lasted quite long and I believe it was said on the Flybe thread by hampshireandy that it always had good loads. And this was despite the fact that there was only 1 flight per day (0 on Sat) and it was poorly timed for business traveller's who would ideally need an early morning and evening flight to allow for a working day.

Two flights per day also help to improve connectivity.

They are the main reasons why I feel a LH route from SOU would work if it were the right frequency's at the right times.

Also not relevant to this post but for anyone interested the BA Firefly A319 is due in at 17:45 tomorrow to take the Olympic flame to the channel islands.

[StGermain]

ADFLY et al, it might be worth looking at the CRJ700 performance criteria at SOU before getting too excited by a possible link to FRA. The runway length vs required payload to reach FRA with a diversion is not really viable. Here's hoping someone else will pick it up though.

[hampshireandy]

So if a cr7 doesnt fit the bill, Lufthansa Regional have plenty of 190/195's