Brighton City Airways

[Aero Mad]

An interesting idea London to Paris Flights via Brighton Shoreham Pontoise - Brighton City Airways (http://brightoncityairways.com/en/London_to_Paris_Flights)

They want to fly from Shoreham to Pontoise - rather like Skysouth used to. And, according to the picture they want to use Let 410s. Sounds interesting, but very little detail.

[Phileas Fogg]

And the guy behind that domain registration has registered it to a residential address in Haywards Heath, his contact email is a hotmail address and that domain was registered as long ago as February 2009.

Sounds a real goer :)

[Aero Mad]

Sounds like its all home-grown until you see that this chap is behind it ( Jonathan Candelon - United Kingdom | LinkedIn (http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/jonathan-candelon/16/615/760) ) and that he's actually commissioned a proper brand ( Disenio (http://www.disenio.co.uk/bca.html) ) and website ( Portfolio - ITw3 Web Solutions (http://itw3.com/en/Portfolio#Brighton_City_Airways) ).

Except for that it still looks pretty amateur. This seems related ( http://www.cityairways.co.uk/ ). Sorry for all the links. I live in hope :p and (therefore) in vain :(.

[Phileas Fogg]

Well if there's no Paris service from LGW then why not start a Paris service from LGW?

There's a service to France from Lydd ... Oops ... 'London Ashford Airport', that's a real winner, last I heard it was operated by a BN3 and some 2 or 3 services per week, if there were a call for Paris or anywhere else I'd imagine Lydd Air would have long ago caught on to it and might already be operating to/from ESH.

Timetables and Fares (http://www.lyddair.com/Timetable-fares.php)

[Aero Mad]

LyddAir sold their Trislanders and have upgraded to Cheiftans. Skysouth did run regular services out of Shoreham to various places in France but got wapped by the recession.

[jamestkirk]

Oh dear. Someone(s) will be losing money getting that turkey to fly.

[Phileas Fogg]

These modern day plonkers that sit behind a PC and type such things as "New York charters from Oxford" and, now, Shoreham to France/Paris.

Never mind developing pretty websites, just investigate the expected difficulties of operating to/from a base that doesn't have an ILS never mind piss poor public transport links erc.

And as for check-in as little as 10 minutes before STD, presumably for pax with hand baggage only, well it takes 10 minutes to walk to the aircraft, get everybody seated, start engines and taxi never mind security clearing 20 odd (10 minute before) passengers.

Great in theory but it would never work in practice.

[ConstantFlyer]

While it's easy to pick holes in any proposal, what we really need is to find a way to get people flying from airports in South East England other than LHR. Aer Arann and easyJet have made a start at Southend; we need breakthroughs now at places like Shoreham, Manston and Lydd. I don't know if this planned route will be a success or a failure, but at least it is raising the profile.

[Cyrano]

An interesting idea London to Paris Flights via Brighton Shoreham Pontoise - Brighton City Airways (http://brightoncityairways.com/en/London_to_Paris_Flights)

They want to fly from Shoreham to Pontoise - rather like Skysouth used to. And, according to the picture they want to use Let 410s. Sounds interesting, but very little detail.

Hmm, I particularly like the bit on the home page
We are currently waiting for Shoreham Brighton City Airport to provide us with service and support guarantees which are required for scheduled passenger flights. We will keep this holding page updated.
which I read as "Shoreham doesn't want to give us anything like the amount of £££ we are asking for, but we got impatient so we launched this website anyway."

While it's easy to pick holes in any proposal, what we really need is to find a way to get people flying from airports in South East England other than LHR. Aer Arann and easyJet have made a start at Southend; we need breakthroughs now at places like Shoreham, Manston and Lydd.
Fragmenting traffic between South East airports could make sense on a few dense routes which could support a meaningful frequency (e.g. taking some fraction of existing London-Dublin or London-Edinburgh traffic with a new service to/from Manston) but if you want to think about developing services from such airports, the most logical development IMHO would be to provide good connecting feed to an alternative hub such as AMS or CDG, rather than unconnecting point-to-point services which are inevitably marginalised.

[Phileas Fogg]

And from http://cityairways.co.uk/

1st March 2009
More news about Brighton City Airways coming soon!

1st March 2009
More news about Brighton City Airways coming soon!


They didn't post it just once, they posted it twice and two and a half years ago :)

[learjet50]

It must be the silly season again

Have never seen so much rubbish about has been airlines that wont even get off the ground who dreams up these acts of fantasy and believes them ???

makes Varisity Express looks like it may have worked ???


we await for the next episode of Comedy Capers

[GROUNDHOG]

In the very early days of Air Wales I researched operating Shoreham to Cardiff, the Do228 did a demo flight and we had a well attended open day. Many laughed at the idea but we had a guaranteed usage of seats from Legal and General and from Ford Motor Company that would have given close to a break even on each flight. We also had the Let410 into Pembrey for a demonstration. I was only the MD, unfortunately the owner didn't share my enthusiasm as was his right.
This was more than 10 years ago when the economy was better, it wasn't easy starting an airline then but it is even harder now so these guys will have a mountain to climb if they are serious about it.

I certainly wouldn't write it off but I would hope they have done a LOT of research into what market is available and sought some guarantees if possible.

Over many years I have been presented with a lot of start up business plans and it is nearly always the ones that start with a glossy brochure flying x aircraft between Y&Z with details of the crew's socks and the CC's hat that fail to get going.

The ones that start with 'We have identified the need for....' and then fit the equipment to the need stand the most chance of making it.

Good luck to them but please guys do the boring bits and the bean counting first.

[TwinAisle]

Your last three paragraphs, Groundhog, should be written in letters a foot high and hung outside Kingsway. As well as put as a sticky at the top of this forum.

Couldn't agree more. The number of people who don't understand the principle of 'it's the market, stupid', but instead prefer pontificating on BvA, this airline should fly that route, or as you say, CC hats, never fails to amaze/amuse/horrify me.

TA

[Cyrano]

Your last three paragraphs, Groundhog, should be written in letters a foot high and hung outside Kingsway. As well as put as a sticky at the top of this forum.

Can I second that? :D

Maybe it would make sense to produce ten commandments for startup airlines as a sticky - Groundhog's three, plus things like "the initial business plan and the operational evaluation should come BEFORE the website."

[xtypeman]

Firstly Cyrano, TA and Groundhog totally agree with you all. :D

This is built on a classic mistake(sorry GH no offence intended). They have looked at what routes are not operated at LGW and said we will start that from Shoreham. The problem is they have not gone on to ask the key question of why is there not a route from LGW.

There is a lack of knowledge especially in respect of Eurostar what about Ebbsfleet close to the M25 and Ashford connected by train to Brighton.

However having these plans bought to the attention of this forum could be a way of testing the proposal out. It saves a lot on consultants fees(sorry TA).:=

XT

[GROUNDHOG]

None taken XT, ah the Classic mistake, jack it all in just as you reach a full order book, achieve break even and are owing pennies compared to the amount you are about to receive! Then when someone offers to buy you out refuse to sell it.....

Back in Shoreham, had a quick look and the cheapest Eurostar seat is £69 one way and SOU/PAR with AF on a couple of random dates was well over £160 one way so why £59 - on the face of it that looks way too cheap.

Three rotations a day is surely too much, why not look at doing something else in the middle of the day, there must be other options. I hope they have thought about back up too.

My advice if they are serious get some decent help, at the moment it looks like it is needed.

[GROUNDHOG]

Re my last post just noticed that Disenio also did the corporate identity of Black Pearl Investments, Kiss and Viking Airlines..........

[Phileas Fogg]

I'm going start an airline out of Chichester City Airport ... a.k.a. Goodwood, I'm going call it 'City of Chichester Air' with a logo of 'COC Air' and then I'm going to try for a courier freight contract with UPS so I may need to amend the logo accordingly. :)


GH ... I just had a quick look on Cheap Flights, Airline Tickets & Discount Airfares - Fly.com (http://www.fly.com) , AF in/out of SOU is a.k.a. FlyBE and FlyBE return fares are around £83.00 SOU/ORY/SOU.

[jabird]

There is a lack of knowledge especially in respect of Eurostar what about Ebbsfleet close to the M25 and Ashford connected by train to Brighton.

Slightly misleading - the local services to Ashford take the best part of two hours, quicker to drive, but that's dead time.

Back in Shoreham, had a quick look and the cheapest Eurostar seat is £69 one way and SOU/PAR with AF on a couple of random dates was well over £160 one way so why £59 - on the face of it that looks way too cheap.

Well most people want to come back, and ES are competing across the whole of SE England, so £59 is reasonable compared to Easyjet, but certainly not all-seat-filling by any means.

I'm not sure that lack or presence of a route from LGW is a fair indicator - for anything from BSH to work, and have 'local' appeal, the market must surely be restricted to a fairly short stretch of south coast - but the 'Brighton-Littlehampton-Worthing' connurbation still numbers some 460,000.

Which routes would have a natural market at both ends? Surely if any, we're looking at hops within the UK - JER and EDI must have demand at both ends, but it is still a brave businessperson that steps forward in this market to fill that demand.

[GROUNDHOG]

There is absolutely no reason for a local airline serving a very local market with limited capacity to ever try to compete on price alone, their strength is convenience and as long as the price isn't extortianate people will pay it.

[petemeadows]

Well, despite any negative comments here the airline launched today as promised

New airline to link Brighton and Paris - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/9709030/New-airline-to-link-Brighton-and-Paris.html)

[TwinAisle]

If you are going to book with these guys, use a credit card. Not a debit card.

19 seats and a wet lease. So no ATOL. So no consumer protection.

Gulp.

TA.

[tibbs87]

A nice detailed report on the first passenger flight :)

Brighton City Airways Inaugural To Paris, Let 410. — Trip Reports Forum | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/trip_reports/read.main/234998/1/)

Seems like it was a success, apart from a few glitches (as you would expect from any new airline, but nothing too serious).

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Totally agree with GH.
There are many large businesses within 30 mins drives away.

If these businesses have a need to send staff between other offices in the fringes of Paris, then there is the basis for a good airline type business.

If the proposed airline has been is talks with these companies, (IBM is a possible), plus they need to send staff on a regular basis then there is the core business.

Who would have thought that Suckling would work. Ford Motor Company had a private airline fron Southend. The Channel Tunnel Project created a few years of regular flights, (OK, these were mostly private charter not scheduled services).
There is a need between certain City Pairs.

In another life I was looking at Business Class only service between UK, (Luton/Stansted/Biggin), to the Brits EU holiday destinations.

Please do not just write off any plans, as sometimes dreamers are needed...but I would agree a good business plan should come before hot web sites..... BUT chicken and egg situation... often a good PR and marketing plan is needed equally to the business plan....attract high profile clients and bankers with the money needs ONE hot hit allowed...

glf....x.... lgw

[GROUNDHOG]

Well if I didn't live half my life at the other end of the Country and the rest the other side of the Atlantic I would be down at Shoreham volunteering to help. I just love the idea of this flying and have learned a lot in Canada about how tiny niche airlines can make profit, it can be done. If BCA are reading this when you start flights to NQY give me a call!

[Fairdealfrank]

There are no longer any LGW-PAR (all airports) flights, so the options are: LHR-CDG, LHR-ORY, accross to Ashford/up to London for the Eurostar, or use the ferries.

That is why there may be a potential niche market for ESH-POX.

Time will tell. Good luck!