Reno P51

[rocket66]

Just saw on the news a picture of the P51 in question. It shows part of the trim tab broken off and holding on by a thread at a right angle to the elevator.

It has me wondering if trim tabs would, if they detached, cause an uncontrollable aircraft? At some of the speeds the Reno birds do I wouldn't be suprised if the forces acting on the surfaces to be almost beyond a pilots strength in such an emergency.

Rocket

[Widewoodenwingswork]

Correct me if I'm wrong as I know nothing about P51's but apparently this kind of accident had happened before. The trim tab comes off and pitches the aircraft up into an extremely high G maneuver. This is obviously not expected by the pilot and he blacks out and slumps down (apparently why you can't see the pilot in the crash video).

Apparently the thing clocked around 500mph in qualifying so it would all happen pretty quickly.

In an eerie twist of fate, an Australian was apparently asked to fly the thing at Reno but then the owner decided to fly it himself.

[Jabawocky]

I do wonder about the structural state of these machines operating on the limit. Sure they are built maintained and operated very carefully, but are there constant engineering evaluations done on things like flutter.

I can only guess that is the cause of trim tab failure and at 500 knots :eek:.......Too much to contemplate an out of trim elevator.

Very sad for all involved directly and indirectly. Will this go the way of the Red Bull?

[Capt Fathom]

apparently why you can't see the pilot in the crash video

Ahh. Ever heard of photoshop! No Pilot. No main undercarriage, but the tailwheel is there.

They've just used a previous photo of the aircraft, doctored it, and pasted it with the aircraft vertical, claiming it is seconds from impact.

Maximum sensationalism! :=

[Harry Cooper]

Ahh. Ever heard of photoshop! No Pilot. No main undercarriage, but the tailwheel is there.

I hope that's a wind up, you can't be serious.

[Wizofoz]

Well, the P51 DOES have a retractable tail-wheel, so why is it extended in the picture?

[hoggsnortrupert]

A very good question indeed:

Is it my imagination in looking at one of the photos to see what appears to be a "smoke" haze about the fuselage and rear gear area?

Secondly, when doing aeros, I was taught to wind in a bit of nose up trim, just so as you had to push positive on the stick, and if you blacked out in a high G, then the A?C should recover with a decreased G load while you recover.

Now if this happened as in the photo, almost inverted: and at such speed!

Food for thought maybe?

[Lodrun]

The aircraft appeared to fly a controlled manoeuvre that culiminated in a near vertical dive into the ground. I can't think of any malfunction that could cause the relevant control inputs. Could the whole thing have been deliberate?

[Harry Cooper]

The tailwheel pops out due to the high G load. Looking at another forum on Pprune a similar incident occurred a few years ago when another P51 lost it's trim tab. The pitch up was around 10G and the pilot got jammed between the control stick and the sidewall of the cockpit. Only difference between this incident and the accident is that this aircraft continued straight up to around 10,000ft where the pilot was able to release himself from the jam he was in and land the aircraft.

The smoke is steam from the modified cooling system in the aircraft. They are speculating that due to the large amount of coolant carried onboard it may have inhibited impact fire.

[baswell]

There are plenty of other pictures now from different angles showing the trim tab departing.

At those kinds of speeds, lack of trim would see the nose pitch up quite violently, right?

High-G knocked the pilot out, aircraft kept rolling as it was already in a turn.

Q: what happens if you roll and keep pulling?
A: The same thing that happens on many a pilot's first barrel roll: the nose ends up pointing straight down.

It makes sense to me. Lets see what the smart folks at the NTSB come up with.

[Frank Arouet]

Click on the "Flutter" video on this PPRune link.

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/464014-flutter-video-posting-test.html

It may alter your idea of something as seemingly benign to be called that name.

[Homesick-Angel]

As was stated in an earlier post, it seems (unconfirmed), that these guys trim slightly nose up for safety at the low level.Can anyone confirm this?

From reading other threads on this, apparently the thing to do if there is an issue is to exit the race vertically, and quickly, but surely if you are to do this at such speed, a blackout would be nearly instant if it wasn't carefully managed??

Im amazed that people are shocked when stuff goes wrong in situations like this.Their doing ridiculous speeds at LL in highly modified aircraft.Its bound to go to sh1t every now and again.

[tinpis]

400 kts 100' altitude and you reckon you'd want to fly it out of trim?
Dunno, but me I think I'd rather concentrate on other things.

[compressor stall]

400 kts 100' altitude and you reckon you'd want to fly it out of trim?
Dunno, but me I think I'd rather concentrate on other things.

Never raced low level, but I would think that you'd trim nose up then when close to the ground so you need to push forward to fly level. Then if you accidentally gray out during a turn, the a/c will climb to safety.

[VH-XXX]

Then if you accidentally gray out during a turn, the a/c will climb to safety.

and if you don't wake up quick enough, will finish you off at the end of the subsequent loop!

[Brian Abraham]

From Avweb AVwebFlash Complete Issue (http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/2010-full.html#205390)

Crash investigators have recovered memory cards that might have come from an on-board camera on Jimmy Leeward's P-51 that crashed at the National Championship Air Races in Reno last Friday. There was also a flight systems telemetry set-up on board that transmitted information on the aircraft's health and performance to his ground crew, according to an Associated Press story. Investigators have now confirmed their probe will focus in part on the aircraft's tail structure and the possibility that a failure of the left horizontal stabilizer trim tab was a contributing factor in the crash, which killed nine people, including Leeward and eight spectators. More than 60 people on the ground were injured and about a dozen remain in the hospital, some in critical condition. The near-vertical impact of the fighter left a crater in the concrete three feet deep and eight feet across and spread debris over almost two acres. More photos and videos have surfaced since the crash and while the primary focus has been on missing tail parts, there are a couple of other anomalies in the photos.

There was an incident during the 1998 Reno Air Races in which a trim tab came off a P-51 named Voodoo Chile. In that incident, the aircraft pitched violently up, causing pilot Bob Hannah to black out under a G load estimated at 10 Gs. He regained consciousness at 9,000 feet and was able to land safely.

In various images of the final milliseconds of the flight, Leeward can't be seen in the cockpit. Also, the retractable tailwheel is fully deployed during the crash sequence and it's not clear when that occurred or what effect it might have had. Officials are also casting doubt on earlier reports that Leeward made a single Mayday call before the crash. They told reporters there is no evidence of such a call. Two of the spectators killed in the accident have been identified. They are Greg Morcom, 47, of Washington State and Michael Wogan, 22, of Scottsdale, Ariz., a muscular dystrophy sufferer who was in a wheelchair.

[Bravohotel]

I was told that some P51s had a fixed tail wheel...over to P51 experts

[mattyj]

Not that one

[Frank Arouet]

Actually to call The Galloping Ghost a P51 is a far stretch. Check the May edition of EAA Sport Aviation magazine. BTW it had a retractable tailwheel.

I can't say I've ever heard or seen a P51 with a fixed tailwheel although other than D models could have.

[Harry Cooper]

As was said on another post, the only original part on these racing aircraft now days is the data plate.

[Brian Abraham]

All Mustangs had a retractable tail wheel.

The prototype

http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/p51variants/Home/NA-73X_1.jpg

[Frank Arouet]

As the original P51 the aircraft was called Galloping Ghost. The name lived on in the re-incarnation. I doubt the Phoenix will rise again.

[Oakape]

An interesting link.

http://www.ignomini.com/reno.html (http://www.ignomini.com/reno.html)

[Frank Arouet]

The roll rate factor needs mention in that the wings were a good 10ft shorter than stock, ailerons half the stock size.

[Bravohotel]

I guess you are correct about the Data plate,I did think it strange that a racing P51 would have a fixed tail wheel.....extra drag...I was just quoting what this other person stated after seeing the photo.

[tinpis]

Ok thats the tail wheel, now where did the pilot get to? :hmm:
I seem to remember something about these race birds use gas bottle for gear up and Huey Newton for down?

[baswell]

So what you trying to get to, tinpis?

The photos are not real?

The trim tab didn't come off?

The accident didn't happen at all, it's all a big hoax?

[tinpis]

Reno air show crash kills nine people - Framework - Photos and Video - Visual Storytelling from the Los Angeles Times (http://framework.latimes.com/2011/09/17/reno-air-races-crash/#/0)

Baswell ,read some the comments

If the photo of the plane pointed down just before impact is real I will be very surprised. If you look at other photos of this plane in flight (on the pilots web site, for example) in EVERY photo you can see the pilot's helmet. Even if he had a heart attack and died he would be leaning up against the glass. There is nowhere for him to be. Plus to get this angle the photographer would have to have been far away from the stands with a very powerful telephoto lens. It is perfectly from the side with no blur whatsoever. He probably could not have gotten the other photo of the plane upside down from the same location. I also searched for "Times Valley Union" and did not find any news organization with Tim O'Brien as a photographer.

[Fris B. Fairing]

Although the photo has all the appearances of having been altered, (initially I thought it was) it has been discussed widely on other forums and it is generally accepted as genuine. In other views looking down into the cockpit the pilot's white helmet can be seen. Recent reports are indicating that the pitch-up was in excess of 20G (!). Even if that is grossly exaggerated, it may account for the apparent absence of a pilot in the photo in question. As for the photographer, not everyone with a camera works for a newspaper.

Rgds

[SPL-101]

Are you guys talking about this incident?

Reno Nevada P-51 plane crashes into crowd on camera - YouTube

[Harry Cooper]

Maybe if they did a search with the newspapers correct name they would get more hits. It's Grass Valley Union not Times Valley Union. And there must be at least dozen posts and blogs out there describing the 1998 "Voodoo" P51 incident where the pilot, Bob Hannah, blacked out after a trim tab failure. As he put it when he came to his head was pinned to floor and it took a lot of effort to get back upright. I'm sure it's probably an exaggeration but in the context of the photo it makes sense.

[Lodrun]

I would guess that for efficiency they race with an aft C of G, so that the net lift on the tailplane is upwards. That would mean that if trimmed for S&L, loss of a trim tab would result in a sudden and severe nose up trim change. But I am still puzzled why it then rolled on its back before pulling through.

[Chimbu chuckles]

The clipped wing Mustangs raced with almost full nose down elevator trim.

[tinpis]

Nicely explained by Professor Chuckles at that other pilot reporting site :ok:

[mattyj]

Probably rolled because of torque..or tiny "clipped" ailerons..or someone resting against the column....etc

[aussie027]

The Memorial service was a day or 2 ago in Reno, Death toll 11 inc pilot and 70 injured many seriously with missing arms and legs etc. Some still in hospital.
A damn horrible tragedy. :{

[gassed budgie]

Probably rolled because of torque


Have seen this said a few times on different forums. It rolled the wrong way. More than likely, the incapacitated pilot unknowingly interfered with the controls.

[Wally Mk2]

11 deceased.....that's just awful, we humans risk it all at times without fully understanding the risks, such is aviation.
It wouldn't take much of a control stick deflection to roll the machine at those speeds.I'd say it's a fair bet that the pilot was in some way incapacitated as one would need to be 100% alert & in control of such a high performance beast during the whole of the event.
Possible outcome: Trim tab failure, sudden movement by way of excessive G's created by that failure that caught the experienced pilot unawares inhibiting his abilities momentarily resulting in a few seconds of uncontrolled flight.

I now wonder what extra safety measures will be put in place for future shows?
Can't bring those deceased back but perhaps we can learn from this tragic event so their lives are not entirely wasted.

Wmk2

[blackhand]

I now wonder what extra safety measures will be put in place for future shows?
Can't bring those deceased back but perhaps we can learn from this tragic event so their lives are not entirely wasted.MMmmmmm
A 74 year old man flying a 61 year old highly modified aircraft at extremely high speed at very low level.
There should be something to learn in all that??

Cheers
BH

[Lodrun]

There is no evidence that the age of either pilot or aircraft had any bearing on this event.

[yowieII]

* *Telemetry downloaded from Galloping Ghost revealed an 11g pullup, fuel flow
interrupted on the way up, and then the engine restarted when fuel flow resumed
at the top of the arc. *The aircraft was making 105 inches of MP (Manifold
Pressure) on the way down.

* *Subject: : Galloping Ghost crash



* *Ok... here's the skinny on the accident.... *A P-51 normally has two trim
tabs.. one on each elevator... this one had one and other one was fixed in
place.. He was warned about the forces being put on that one tab. *It failed..
He had at least a 10G load when the plane pitched up from the loss of the trim
tab and he went "nighty night" and probably never woke up.





* *Here's the “theory” of the crash from experienced racers.

* *In 1989 this type of thing happened to another pilot but he lived to tell
the story. When flying a P-51 at 450+mph you need to have full nose down trim to
keepthe plane level. The elevator trim tab broke off and the aircraft imediately
went in to a 10G climb, confirmed by the G-meter. The pilot came to, from the
sudden blackout and realized he had slipped through the shoulder harness and was
looking at the floor of the airplane. He was able to reach the throttle and pull
it back to slow down and was able to recover and land.



* *Photo oneis the airplane taxiing, note the pilots head in the canopy.

* *Fast forward to 2011

* *Photo twois typical oil canning as a result of the tremendous torque these
engines put out at high power.

* *Photo three is a photo of GG upside down with a missing elevator trim tab.
Note all you see is the back of the pilots head indicating he is being forced
down in the cockpit.

* *Photo four is a view of the left side nose down with the tail wheel extended
and no view of the pilot. The tail wheel is held up by hydraulics only with no
mechanical uplock, thus indicating a high G-force causing it to extend.

* *Photos five and six are from the left side prior to impact, note no view of
the pilot and the tail wheel extended.

* *Photo sevenis the debris just after the crash. To the right of center above
the crowd it appears to be the wing with the

*

[yowieII]

If anyone can tell me how to get the photos that should have been with that post up??

[skwinty]

Hi yowieII,

You need to upload the pics to photobucket and then post the links.

[SASless]

Saw an email where information gained from the Video from the aircraft shows the trim failed AFTER the pull up. Rumors suggest the aircraft had undergone major modifications immediately prior to the Race, had not had a full set of airtests done prior to the race, and that having a very aft CG combined with turbulence caused the upset during which the trim tab failed.

[TBM-Legend]

This may clarify the issue somewhat.

Good News for the future of air racing.

Sea Fury "Team Furias"

Our new crew member, Matt Jackson, is not only a race pilot, aircraft
business owner and aircraft owner (he also takes care of Tom Cruises P-51)
but he is also the VP of the Unlimited Racing Class and head of the Safety
Committee.
We had a long talk about the Reno crash on the way to Mojave today.
Matt believes the cause of the crash was due to The Galloping Ghost having a
CG too close to the aft limit which resulted in pitch instability. There are
instructions on the P-51 regarding no combat missions with the aft fuel tank
full resulting in an aft CG problem. Instructions specify to empty the aft
fuel tank first in flight.
During qualifying Matt watched Galloping Ghost from inside the cockpit of
Furias and could not believe how much trouble Leeward was having in keeping
the Ghost in a stable pattern around the course.
Since Leeward lives in Florida and the Galloping Ghost was modified for
racing in Calif., when Leeward picked up the Ghost for the Reno races at the
last minute, a complete flight test program had not been done based on
available information.
There is a video of the entire last lap of the Ghost before the crash which
Matt showed me. As Leeward was coming around pylon #8 at about 480 mph after
passing Rare Bear, he hit turbulence which pitched his left wing down,
Leeward corrected with hard right rudder and aileron. Just as the aircraft
was straightening out, he hit a second mountain of turbulence which caused
the tail to 'dig in' resulting in a 10+ G climb rendering Leeward
unconscious instantly and resulted in the tail wheel falling out. (broken
tail wheel support structure was found on the course). As the Ghost shot
upward the LH aileron trim tab broke loose. This can be heard on the tape,
so the trim tab did not cause the accident.
Since the Ghost was racing at 480 mph with full right rudder and the stick
full right, this is where everything stayed when Leeward blacked out.
Cockpit camera film that was salvaged from the wreck shows Leeward slumped
over to the right in the cockpit. As a result, the Ghost climbed up and to
the right, rolled over on her back and then headed for the box seats. Most
in the box seats never saw it coming because it came in from behind them.
Matt has had long conversations with the NTSB who call the accident a
'fluke'.They are not going to recommend canceling future races. He has also
talked to the insurance companies covering the races for Reno and they also
say they are not going to cancel their coverage of future races. Now we wait
for the FAA to make a decision.
Ironically, Matt had bought box seats tickets for his good friends who stayed
with him for a few days before the races. They were the husband and wife who
were killed.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Or not. There are some very strange people out there:hmm:


What Didn't Cause the Reno Air Race Crash

Lately there’s been an email circulating that purports to be from someone on the Wildfire Air Racing team who had a long talk with race pilot Matt Jackson about Jimmy Leeward’s crash last month at the Reno Air Races. The email says that Jackson was racing at the time in his own Unlimited-category plane and witnessed firsthand the trouble that Jimmy Leeward was having as he rounded the course. According to the email,

There is a video of the entire last lap of the Ghost before the crash which Matt showed me. As Leeward was coming around pylon #8 at about 480 mph after passing Rare Bear, he hit turbulence which pitched his left wing down, Leeward corrected with hard right rudder and aileron. Just as the aircraft was straightening out, he hit a second mountain of turbulence which caused the tail to ‘dig in’ resulting in a 10+ G climb rendering Leeward unconscious instantly and resulted in the tail wheel falling out. (broken tail wheel support structure was found on the course). As the Ghost shot upward the LH aileron trim tab broke loose. This can be heard on the tape, so the trim tab did not cause the accident.

This is conclusion is diametrically opposed to the conclusion that I (and many others) reached, based on the information available—namely, that the failure of the trim tab caused the steep climb, not vice versa. As the email was forwarded to me by a trusted and experienced member of the aircraft community, I was surprised and concerned by its assertions.

I was also a bit skeptical. There are many things in the email which don’t make much sense; turbulence doesn’t come in “mountains,” and I’ve never before heard of any such phenomenon as a tail “digging in.”

I was even more dubious about this:

Matt has had long conversations with the NTSB who call the accident a ‘fluke’. They are not going to recommend canceling future races. He has also talked to the insurance companies covering the races for Reno and they also say they are not going to cancel their coverage of future races. Now we wait for the FAA to make a decision.

The NTSB is highly secretive about their ongoing investigations, which are very serious matters with life-and-death consequences. They are a long way off from reaching a conclusion, and will not issue their report until next year. Only then will the FAA be in a position to change its rules.

Something smelled fishy. So I put a call in to Matt Jackson. Sure enough, Jackson knew exactly what I was talking about and immediately wanted to make clear that he did not write the email. “It’s all BS,” he said. “There’s a lot of misinformation about what actually happened. It’s not a correct synopsis of what went on.”

For one thing, though he was indeed enrolled in the Unlimited air race along with Jimmy Leeward, he sat out that particular heat due to mechanical difficulties, so he could not have witnessed Leeward’s difficulties from the air.

Jackson says that he tried to track down who wrote the email, so far without success.

“I’d love to know who it is,” he says. “I’m sure that was written either by someone either that has met me or has spoken to me at some point in time, because I meet thousands of people, going to the air race every year, being in the position I’m in. I have to deal with a lot of people that I meet once and might not ever talk to again in my lifetime, and I’ve been doing this a long time. It’s an unfortunate thing. People want to feel important. The power of the internet is that you can make a statement of fact and post it but not have any ramifications because you’re not identified.”

The point he emphasized repeatedly during our conversation was that, above and beyond the specific inaccuracies in the email, it describes him blabbing about an ongoing investigation. “For me to even comment or even voice my opinion about what went on would not be appropriate,” he says. “I don’t endorse or support any comments that have been posted about what I’ve said or haven’t said.”

[TBM-Legend]

come and listen to Matt Jackson speak about Reno at the Australian Warbirds safety meeting and dinner to be held in Brisbane on Sat 12th Nov. Non-members are welcome go to Australian Warbirds Association - AWAL (http://www.australianwarbirds.com.au) for details.