Multi-Crew Pilot Licence (MPL) conversion

[risk]

Would anyone have any information on conversion of an MPL licence issued in one ICAO contracting state to another? Since MPL(s) are given in conjunction with a partner airline, if a student wants to move to a different country (in my case Australia), how can this be achieved?

I have looked at the entire website of CASA but there is no mention about MPL conversion (only ATPL, CPL & PPL). Since I will be moving to Australia soon after my training, I won’t have time to look for a job here to get the 1500 hours to get my ATPL. In any case even if I did stay back for a few years & got a job & the minimum 1500 hours for my ATPL, the conversion of an ATPL requires the conversion of a CPL.....

DAMN IT!

So how do I convert my non-Auzzie MPL to an Australian ;) MPL?

[27/09]

So how do I convert my non-Auzzie MPL to an Australian MPL? Is there such a licence in Australia?

[anonymouspilot]

I beleive it does exist...on paper at least (there's a big wad of paper on it in the CAOs). Currently there aren't any operators in Australia employing MPLs and with the licence being employer specific, it'll be of little use. I think you'll have to gain a CPL. Your hours should count towards the required minimums but I'm not sure what theory you'll get credit for, and I imagine you'll have to pass the flight test as per normal CASA requirements.

[PLovett]

I thought MPLs' were airline specific so I don't think it could be done. However, I stand to be corrected.

I have heard of one Euro operator taking on MPL pilots from another bust operator but that was within the same country so presumably the transfer was with the approval of the regulatory authority.

[risk]

Thank you for your replies...

As I have unfortunately found out... even CASA doesn't know much. They are quire confused about it. My query was directed to Maintenance Personnel Licencing (MPL) department & after many email exchanges later they stopped replying because I presume they thought I was playing with them...

Even though I spelled it for them 'Multi-crew Pilot's Licence' (MPL), they still sent it to the Maintenance Licencing department :)

I reckon it will be VERY difficult to change countries after you get an MPL. I belive the best option would be to get MPL, get hours (1500), get ATPL... the only catch is... to convert an ATPL, you need to convert your CPL.... which I wouldn't have...

Anyway, thank you for your replies & if anyone figures a way out of this maze, please let me know...PM me please.

[Keg]

Looks like you'd need to do CPL subjects as well as a CPL flight test in order to get the CPL.

[risk]

Yeah, but generally one would find it easier to compare the syllabuses of the CPL & the MPL & 'eliminate' all the subjects that appear in both & then sit for a differences exam (if any subjects remain)...

The problem is it is not that easy to talk this way to the authorities...

I guess I will just have to find the time (and cash) to go through the CPL subjects & exams along the path to my ATPL via the MPL route...

[risk]

Simple answer: I don't know....

To get an ATPL (for others who are reading this) one requires 250 PIC & a CPL(A), both of which you WON'T get with an MPL...

I guess, one has to spend extra cash & sit for CPL exams on the side & get on a PIC hour building program...

Some regulating bodies allow 100 PIC & the rest as PICUS, which could be used (if you beg the guy in the other seat & your employer)...

[romeocharlie]

So get a cpl like everyone else in this country had to. :ugh:

[LeadSled]

Romeocharlie,
No everybody doesn't, several AU operators have( or are in the process) moved their cadets to the MPL system, a sensible move for an airline.

To be clear, an MPL is tied to a sponsoring airline, and is integrated with that airline's SOPs from the start of training. To swap employees within an NAA territory would be entirely a matter of negotiation with the local authority. Going over national boundaries would, I rather suspect, be as near as impossible as I can imagine. That goes double if CASA is involved. Just look at the roadblocks various NAAs erect to the conversion of other license types, if they are more than a PPL.

If you hold an MPL from an issuing NAA, once you get the ATPL/ALTP hours, that (NAA's) license can be issued, there are no further course/exam requirements.

Once you have the ATPL/ALTP, you are no longer tied to the sponsoring airline.

Tootle pip!!

[mcgrath50]

I don't know any Aussie airlines using the MPL system yet, some overseas airlines who train in Australia are though.

To me it sounds like an easier way to get an ATPL with much less real experience :ouch:

[risk]

I have 'heard' that even CTC (NZ) is planning to create an MPL course by this years end... that should tell us something... that airlines are indeed 'thinking' about it.

@romeocharlie: In the situation I am (age + finances + current career + life, etc.), I have to take a leap of faith & I want to explore even the remotest chance of being close to an airline, which in this case is the MPL route... due to the sponsoring airline clause...

@LeadSled: I agree, but one will surely face roadblocks even after obtaining an ATPL as conversion of an ATPL explicitly (in case of CASA) stipulates the conversion of CPL too, which an MPL graduate won't have...

@mcgrath50: It does not involve 'less' experience, yes 'easier' maybe, but 'less experience' no! Fact is, to obtain an ATPL you require 1500 hours (250 PIC), & you have to get that regardless if you have an MPL or a CPL. So, either way you get the same experience, theoretically. In reality, MPL being an easier route, it might be that you would end up getting those hours faster because 'MAYBE' the sponsoring airline would hire you as soon as you graduate... ONE PROBLEM, you won’t easily get the PIC that way as the sponsoring airline won’t just let you take over now would they? They would try to keep you hostage so you won’t run away...

[waren9]

Sounds like just another way to indenture some more slave labour. You get a qualification that is not portable and you have to take whatever money/terms they offer you.

[risk]

Waren9, Is that not the case with everything in life?... look out for the big guy & the little guys will just manage themselves?

I must say, that the MPL sounds promising. Looking at Boeing's current market outlook (2011-2030), there will be a requirement of 460,000 pilots by 2030. These pilots will require a quicker way to get into an airline or rather a different approach to studying to be prepared for an airline type job. As far as I know, this 'different approach' is what MPL addresses.

Link is given below for the current market outlook.

Boeings Market Outlook 2011-2030 (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cmo/pdf/Boeing_Current_Market_Outlook_2011_to_2030.pdf)

[waren9]

Disagree with your first sentence mate, not sure what you mean by the 2nd.

Anyway, if its what you're after good luck with it. Sounds like you're now aware that achieving an ATPL in some jurisdictions may not be all that straight forward.

[Capn Bloggs]

several AU operators have( or are in the process) moved their cadets to the MPL system
Which operators?

[LeadSled]

------ an ATPL explicitly (in case of CASA) stipulates the conversion of CPL too, which an MPL graduate won't have...

Risk,
Re-read the rules in their entirety, after all, most of the detail for the MPL was developed here in AU ---- you can go (and that is what is intended) from an MPL to an ATPL.

As far as I know, little or nothing has been done by CASA to look at what extra would be needed to get a CPL issued (or a PPL, for that matter) to an MPL holder ---- let alone any decision.

Bloggs,
Have a guess, first clue, they are not small operators. If you choose to assume that my failing to accede to you request/demand mean it ain't true, assume what you like.

I wouldn't mind taking a small bet that, within say 5 years, all airline cadet courses in Australia that start with ab nitio training will be MPL courses --- because this is what the MPL was designed for.

At this stage, the lack of understanding of the MPL is widespread amongst "traditionally trained/mistrained" management pilots as it is Australian pilots in general.

Remember, the world didn't end when the SCPL was erased, despite protests about it's absolute necessity in the general scheme of things.

Tootle pip!!

[Capn Bloggs]

Bloggs,
Have a guess, first clue, they are not small operators. If you choose to assume that my failing to accede to you request/demand mean it ain't true, assume what you like.

I wouldn't mind taking a small bet that, within say 5 years, all airline cadet courses in Australia that start with ab nitio training will be MPL courses --- because this is what the MPL was designed for.

At this stage, the lack of understanding of the MPL is widespread amongst "traditionally trained/mistrained" management pilots as it is Australian pilots in general.

Remember, the world didn't end when the SCPL was erased, despite protests about it's absolute necessity in the general scheme of things.
Typical LS mind-games. Do you enjoy annoying people? How about you stop trying to be all-high-and-mighty-like and answer what is a simple question. What's the problem; is it a trade secret?

I wouldn't mind taking a small bet that, within say 5 years, all airline cadet courses in Australia that start with ab nitio training will be MPL courses --- because this is what the MPL was designed for.
The MPL will coincidentally "fix" the pilot shortage as well. Pity about the lack of real experience. AF 447 here we come.

[risk]

I reckon we are deviating from the topic at hand. I have indeed read the regulations in its entirety, but have not found an answer to my original question, which is, conversion of MPL across international borders. This question was then deviated to an argument about MPL (as always).

I was ‘banking’ on the HOPE that once I attain my ATPL via the MPL, I shall be able to convert the ATPL. The issue was however that an ATPL conversion requires a conversion of a CPL, & CASA are explicit about it. They explicitly state CPL… so that is where the ‘screw-up’ is…

Anyhow, I do FULLY support you in believing that MPL is the future & will eventually be the mainstream method of training.

Some of the major airlines are already considering MPL for their cadet programmes & are already in the process of preparing the ground-work (examples cant be provided at this time due to breach of information laws, but a small search through this website will give provide an answer ;) ). A few LCC(s) are already training their cadets via the MPL syllabus (many examples of those... or Google it)

[LeadSled]

Risk,
In short, there is no answer. Essentially, the MPL is not a portable license, and was never intended to be.
Conversion of an ALTP is a different matter entirely. Despite your interpretation of the regulations, I don't believe you will be in any different position to any other holder of an ALTP or equivalent, in converting to an AU ATPL.
What you are seeing in our regulations is one of many, many legislative inconsistencies, as a result if a very fracture "regulatory reform" program, and far from perfect consequential amendments.
CASA, for all it faults, usually handles such administrative matters in a pragmatic way.
What you are reading in the regulations is not a considered intent to frustrate an ALTP/ATR holder who came through the MPL scheme.

Bloggs,
<http://www.aviationbusiness.com.au/news/ctc-aviation-training-targeting-aussie-cadets>
MPL message here somewhere?? You should really get out more.

For those of you who have a knee jerk negative reaction to the MPL, I guess you are entitled to your opinion.

For what it is worth , I have no doubt that, with a properly constructed MPL course (a work in progress) a "potential" airline pilot will be far better prepared for his/ her or its first job, than a "traditionally" trained 200h or so pilot with CPL/IR/very bare multi and frozen ATPL subjects.

As has been said many times, all the MPL does is codifies what has been the dominant method of airline pilot training in Europe and many other counties since the mid-1960s, when a steady supply of ex-military pilots dried up.

Tootle pip!!

[Capn Bloggs]

Bloggs,
<http://www.aviationbusiness.com.au/news/ctc-aviation-training-targeting-aussie-cadets>
MPL message here somewhere??
Not that I can see. Cadets, yes MPL, No.

several AU operators have( or are in the process) moved their cadets to the MPL system
I ask again: which operators?

I have no doubt that, with a properly constructed MPL course (a work in progress) a "potential" airline pilot will be far better prepared for his/ her or its first job, than a "traditionally" trained 200h or so pilot with CPL/IR/very bare multi and frozen ATPL subjects.

You don't say?! :cool: But compare your MPL with a ATPL 1500hr-turbine experienced ex-FO (or probably ex-captain). I know which one I want in my RHS. When future AF447s are full of cheap, manipulated MPLs, the pax will stand even less of a chance than they did in 2009.

[LeadSled]

Bloggs,
As I already suggested, you really should get out more, you might notice the straws in the wind.

The link was to one of a series of press releases from interested parties. Do you really want them all served up on a plate??

I know which one I want in my RHS.

But, my dear chap, the wanting and the getting are very different.

And, I dare say, the getting will not be your choice. The tides of change are against you, as they have always been, but you haven't ever been successful in holding back the tide, have you!!

Tootle pip!!

[Capn Bloggs]

Unbelievable, sled. You come on here and state:

several AU operators have( or are in the process) moved their cadets to the MPL system

and when asked you give us a link and say work out out yourself. :cool:

As for:
The tides of change are against you, as they have always been, but you haven't ever been successful in holding back the tide, have you!!
I and my colleagues successfully held off you and your Free In Gee mates for over ten years. And we got (I should say kept) mandatory radio in CTAFs to help protect the travelling public.

[Artificial Horizon]

I converted a JAA ATPL to the aussie ATPL. I don't know where you are getting the idea that you need a CPL as well. To convert to an aussie ATPL you do have to complete the aussie CPL law ground exam, just to give you a good grounding in the subject before you complete the ATPL law exam.

You might want to check you facts. If you have a JAA ATPL you will be treated in Oz the same as everyone else with an ATPL regardless of what route you took to get this licence.

[LeadSled]

---- but have not found an answer to my original question,Risk,
With respect, you have been answered, there is no ICAO mechanism for transferring an MPL across borders, and no intended mechanism to transfer an MPL between airlines.

The intent of the MPL is, I would have thought, abundantly clear, it is tied to a particular carrier.

The MPL does step up to an ALTP/ATPL once you have all the hours requirements ---- all of which are gained either during the initial course or during time as a co-pilot-F/O.

Otherwise, you will need to negotiate with whatever NAA you are dealing with, as to what credits you will get against the requirements for a CPL, and what additional training and/or examinations that may be required.

Tootle pip!!

PS: That a variation to this was negotiated by one of the Scandinavian NAAs was a somewhat special case, but an example of how an NAA can be sensible and pragmatic. I wouldn't expect that as a general precedent.

[risk]

Thank you LeadSled...

[justanotherflyer]

Capn Bloggs:

...compare your MPL with a ATPL 1500hr-turbine experienced ex-FO (or probably ex-captain). I know which one I want in my RHS. When future AF447s are full of cheap, manipulated MPLs, the pax will stand even less of a chance than they did in 2009.

What do you see as the typical route by which, in turn, your RHS pilot gets to that 1500 hour turbine point?

I have no ax to grind in this debate one way or the other, haven't made my mind up yet.

[Oktas8]

Risk,

I too would suggest you check your facts carefully. As far as I know there is no requirement to convert an overseas CPL before attempting to convert an overseas ATPL. Sit some CPL ground exams, yes, and pass an IR initial issue flight test, yes.

CASA link (http://agencysearch.australia.gov.au/search/click.cgi?rank=1&collection=agencies&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.casa.gov.au%2Fscripts%2Fnc.dll%3FWCMS%3 ASTANDARD%3A%3Apc%3DPC_90085&index_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.casa.gov.au%2Fscripts%2Fnc.dll%3F WCMS%3ASTANDARD%3A%3Apc%3DPC_90085&auth=llGPnZhAGntVGGlUVir%2F3w&search_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fcasa.gov.au%2F&query=atpl%20conversion&profile=casa&identifier=1333349047.90508)

Best of luck,
O8