Ridiculous Hire Pricing

[seneca208]

Possibly a bit off topic...

But what on earth justifies ridiculously high aircraft hire rates in Australia? I just inquired at a flying school in QLD about the possibility of getting some PA28-200R time to complete my NVFR rating. Quoted $495 an hour dual.....:ugh:

As a New Zealander, I'm not sure what to think. Anybody know cheaper places, or is this about the Australian norm?

[Howard Hughes]

It's been a long time since I hired an aircraft, but have been looking around recently, that looks about $100-150 to high to me!:eek:

I'd have a good look around the net for comaritive prices, like this (http://www.nswair.com.au/aircraft-hire-rates) for example.

Cheers, HH.:ok:

[eocvictim]

WOW, prices have gotten out of control! RVAC at MB is the only one I can think of still using Arrows, they want $364/hr dual night according to their website.

[Avgas172]

TIF Trial Instructional Flights $205 Dual, $99 Solo, $140 - 40 minutes



nice a solo TIF that should be interesting to say the least :E

[Avgas172]

.... or come to lovely YGLI where you can hire a C172 for $150 hr wet :D

[seneca208]

Seems that school might have been a bit of a rip! Still, nothing compared to $255 NZD dual at my local school :D

Cheers guys

[Shinx]

Sounds like Archerfield. 1) You're paying for the location (AF being an expensive place to operate from). 2) Although I don't speak for myself (because cost is of huge importance), paying an extra (say) $100 per hour for the quality of instruction/service may in fact save you money in the long run.

At a nearby operator to the school that I think you have been to, you can buy 100 hours in a C172 and still not have your GFPT. That, to me, is more criminal than charging a premium price for a premium product.

[BrokenConrod]

But what on earth justifies ridiculously high aircraft hire rates in Australia?

Absolutely nothing!

But aircraft owners and operators are free to charge whatever they wish, just as you a free to pay what they ask - or not!

The marketplace will generally sort this out.

I once paid $400/hr for a C172RG solo - but only once! The operator didn't last long.

BC :cool:

[dude65]

$150 per hour for a 172 is a bloody good deal

One of the reasons I no longer go flying is the ludicrously high cost of hiring an aircraft. The aero club where I was flying, at Redcliffe, now charge $225 p/h private hire for a 172 (my weapon of choice). And that's one of the better deals around Brisbane.

An hour doesnt get you to far either, say a bit of a run up north to Noosa and back. Ad on charts, ERSA, ASIC (if you need one), medical and suddenly it's a $500 day.

As much as I'd love to still have my monthly fly, I can no longer justify the cost.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

That does seem a bit much...

Some places look at what "next door" is charging and start the race to the bottom. :mad:

Some places calculate their costs and add a profit margin to make it worthwhile. :)

If people ask me for a discount, I tell them if they could go to the hangar and negotiate a chaeaper labour rate just for the time they have flown, same with the refuellers, the airport mamagers, the controllers, the insurance company etc, then we can talk about it. Otherwise, they can look for "cheap" flying elsewhere.

Isn't it funny though, how many CPL wannabees want "Cheap" flying, then when they get a job grumble about the pay rates. :=

[paulsalem]

Absolutely nothing!

But aircraft owners and operators are free to charge whatever they wish, just as you a free to pay what they ask - or not!

The marketplace will generally sort this out.

I once paid $400/hr for a C172RG solo - but only once! The operator didn't last long.

The second half of that post is correct. Supply and demand justify the price.

[FokkerInYour12]

As someone who owns a 30 year old SE aircraft, fixed pitch prop and uncarraige that is used for ~ 400 hours a year freight charter, I am barely breaking even at $240/hr wet hire rate inc GST... due primarily to increasing maintenance costs/unscheduled maintenance.

$150/hr for a C172 is a bargain but I think not so sustainable in the long run - at least on in my aircraft ownership experience.

[outnabout]

So true, CFI, so true.

Ditto for the travelling public, who want to fly at a date and time of their choice on a flight just for them alone (not one of the standard scenics, oh no, they are not just ANYBODY), but then only want to pay Low Cost Carrier prices.

Champagne tastes, beer budget.....

[Avgas172]

C172 (calculated on 100 hours pa)
Fuel FPL @ 33lph = $66
Insurance @ $3500 = $35
100 Hrly @ $2500 = $25
50 Hrly @ 600 = $12
Hangar & Parking Charges = $10

Total = $148 per hour, only the insurance & hangarage cost reduces with increased hours, figures don't include depreciation, interest, wear & tear etc., Not hard to work out why it costs so much ...... :\

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

C172 (calculated on 100 hours pa)
Fuel FPL @ 33lph = $66
Insurance @ $3500 = $35
100 Hrly @ $2500 = $25
50 Hrly @ 600 = $12
Hangar & Parking Charges = $10

Total = $148 per hour, only the insurance & hangarage cost reduces with increased hours, figures don't include depreciation, interest, wear & tear etc., Not hard to work out why it costs so much ......
12th Sep 2011 16:26


And that's if the owner/operator is in the business (but not for long) of supplying an aircraft without making a red cent on it.

Around $200/hr give or take $20 depending on age/quality (N vs. R model) sounds fair.

[lilflyboy262]

Probably makes his money through instructors. Guys working for free on that 100hr supervision period and charges them out at $50 an hour.

Seen that a lot of times.

[mostlytossas]

Or of course you can buy into a syndicate and enjoy much cheaper flying and experiance the benefit of part ownership which usually means better looked after aircraft as flying training by students doesn't knock the hell out of it.
Do your homework though not all syndicates are well run.

[Avgas172]

Probably makes his money through instructors. Guys working for free on that 100hr supervision period and charges them out at $50 an hour.

Seen that a lot of times.
Nope, only pvt hire to aero club members, if the a/c was training the insurance would be a lot more than $3500. We do it for the love of flying .... just the love, no presents, no car, no holidays, just love. Oh and it's a H model, not one of them new fangled N models, hell we can't afford one of them.

[Move On]

I'ts best to shop around. There are so many flying schools around/aero clubs.

From my experience, country aero clubs tend to be better priced due to the fact that they are not at airfields which charge a fortune for landing fee's ect.

The airfields that tend to be close to major cities (prime real estate potential) will always be expensive. It's not the operators fault.

Also NEVER pay up front!!!!!!

Move On...:ok:

[FokkerInYour12]

FYI insurance of $85K aircraft for non-ab-initio training plus freight charter is $4100 @ 1% excess.

Parking at Jandakot on hard stand is $2050 per annum.

It's the unscheduled maintenance that hurts.... $7K 100 hourlies aren't fun. Labour now $110 inc GST for maintenance....

[lethalw]

Add onto the C172 cost equation the overhaul prices for engines and props....only a deadhead operator would hire out an aircraft without putting some of the hourly figure away for the inevitable overhauls.....

C172 Engine at 40K give or take, 2200 hr TBO = $20 per hour...
Prop adds another few $, particularly if it's outta limits and needs replacing...

Then as FIY12 said, put some away for un-scheduled stuff....instruments, radios, 500hr inspecs etc etc.....

Prices start to move upwards relatively quickly.....

[TBM-Legend]

plus landing charges and tower charges....
plus cost of an office plus accounting/gst returns/ASIC fees/ASIC cards/
plus a margin and depreciation..
oh I forgot who runs the show/no self check-ins there either.

[smiling monkey]

Gosh, can't believe the cost of hire these days .. I remember when a C152 dual was under $100 per hour dual in the late 80's. A C172 was about $125 dual back then too. So glad I don't have to hire an aircraft to fly these days ...

[Sunfish]

Add a return on the capital cost of the aircraft as well.

[Avgas172]

Gosh, can't believe the cost of hire these days .. I remember when a C152 dual was under $100 per hour dual in the late 80's. A C172 was about $125 dual back then too. So glad I don't have to hire an aircraft to fly these days ...

........and fuel was 20 cents a litre & a new Falcon was $4250, and my house cost $25,000 to build on a $6000 block of land in Cairns .... go figure huh!

[PA39]

Aircraft financing must also be a consideration plus unscheduled maintenance.

[Kopy]

All those items would cost 10 times that now, except the aircraft hire, which is 2-3 times more.

[gassed budgie]

At the moment I've got a new engine (factory overhauled H2AD) sitting on the shop floor, waiting to be fitted to the 172. The cost of the engine was just on $27k AUD, so perhaps not quite as expensive as some have suggested.
Along with the engine, there's also a new muffler/exhaust system, new oil cooler, new engine mounts, a new complete set of hoses, new baffling and all the hardware required to fit those items, will also be new. A brand new prop was fitted a few months ago at a cost of $3,800.
So basically everything ahead of the firewall will be brand new. The total cost of all of those bits and pieces, including the prop, is just on $34,000. Allowing say, another $5,000 to have the engine fitted and I've blown nearly $40,000 on the 172!!!
Now this particular 172N is a low time, bright and shiny, exceptionally clean original airplane with a modern stack of serviceable radios. It's hired out at $180+GST an hour, wet. So how do I recoup $40,000 from $180 an hour? Well um....
I must be the deadhead that someone mentioned above. At the end of the day, it would in fact be cheaper for me to leave it in the hangar.
There aren't to many aircraft available for hire locally, so I suppose it gives some of the local guys the opportunity to hire an aircraft at a reasonably cheap rate. Cheap for whom, I'm not to sure about.
As for the 210, it's just not worth hiring it out. You go twice as fast with four times the drag, well in the 210 if you hit something, you're probably going about twice as quick as you would in the 172 and I betcha it would cost as much as four times to fix. Anyway at $500+GST/hr, there aren't many takers.
Yep, best left in the hangar.

[BrokenConrod]

Was talking to a mate the other day who chartered an A36 Bonanza (plane and pilot) in Brazil - US$700/hr !!!!!!

I figure it costs US$300-350/hr to operate a Bonanza in Oz, so $400/hr is not a bad markup for pilot + profit !!!

BC :cool:

[baswell]

This is why the aviation gods invented RA-Aus. Plenty of sustainable commercial operations that will give you an aircraft for $150 wet and clubs that have them for much less.

No, you can't keep your MECIR current, but for those who just want to fly for fun on a sunday afternoon, it's the best way to get up there! :ok:

[Avgas172]

what gassed budgie said
Except that the 172 in question has done 400 hours in the last 12 years, so the donk has another 1400 hours to run on condition, by my estimates that makes another 42 years of hangaring around.
Incidently went to the Coffs Harbour aero club today to get a new chart & they have a PA28 180 for hire for $150 wet, up until January, so jump into one of those cheap flights or fire up your old trusty datsota & do your flying from there for a while, it's not mandatory to fly out of only the Capital cities yano... :E