The Sun - RAF Fools

[Blue Bottle]

RAF fools put anti-freeze in fighters’ fuel | The Sun |News|Campaigns|Our Boys (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/3801564/RAF-fools-put-anti-freeze-in-fighters-fuel.html)

Someone is in trouble...:=

[Roadster280]

On the plus side, they could fill 125,000 jerry cans for use in kero heaters with it.

[Jazzyg]

Have it on the QT that not an Air Force instigated c**k up....look towards the Really Large Corp....:} However, should have been caught in other areas of the fuels QA system!

[The Helpful Stacker]

Have it on the QT that not an Air Force instigated c**k up....look towards the Really Large Corp.... However, should have been caught in other areas of the fuels QA system!

Indeed. Check blend then refractometer check before commencing full blending operation was the standard procedure I was trained to do and practiced when carrying such tasks.

Then again, if it was Rejects Last Chance who were performing the blending operation its quite possible the "all fuel is the same isn't it?" attitude that I saw displayed on so many occassions by the RLC may still be an issue or just the fact they haven't been trained or were cutting corners.

No doubt someone at West Moors is currently either scratching their head over how to remove the anti-freeze or is punching number to work out just how much 'clean' fuel would need to be added in order to blend the lot within Def-Stan limits, if a dilution blend is even possible for anti-freeze (I've never heard of a major anti-freeze contaimnation like this, not even sure if it can be blended out).

As for the contaimination being caught elsewhere, it depends upon the overall ratio of anti-freeze to avtur (which if the blending rig was set up correctly would have been blending 1-800, if my memory is correct) and its effect on the SG of the blended product. Refractometer tests are not a standard 'point of issue' test, rather they are performed only daily on the bulk stock and, as mentioned, during the actual blending process. Yes a daily check should have caught it (which it perhaps eventually did) but if the fuel were issued forward without being subject to the required settling embargo then retest this could be how it slipped through the net.

Having had to 'clean-up' mistakes by the RLC in the past with regards fuel contaimination (especially a very serious one that caused the quarantine of all bowsers and blended fuel stocks at the UKs only Mediterranean staging point) I wouldn't be surprised if it was them dropping the ball but then again, I've had to sort out mistakes by Suppliers before too.

[Wensleydale]

All is not lost....

I met a Falklands farmer who made fuel for his diesel generator by mixing aviation fuel with engine oil (not for his tractor though). Looks like cheap electricity for a while.:ok:

[Karma022202]

A source revealed: "It was a very simple error, but could potentially have been very serious. You can rest assured that someone's had a serious kicking over it."

A serious kicking? Surely that is against the MOD's policy on bullying. I reckon if they kicked me I would put in a service complaint about the treatment meated out to me.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Karma, that seals it, having seen your post re BN .......... you're a troll :=

[500N]

Top Bunk

" Karma, that seals it, having seen your post re BN .......... you're a troll"

I was thinking the same thing.


Karma
Have you thought he might not have been talking literally ???????

However, that said, sometimes being taken behind the shed for a thick ear and yes, "serious kicking" by the Platoon Sgt has much more effect than any verbal roasting or charges. I think you need to HTFU.

.

[Karma022202]

However, that said, sometimes being taken behind the shed for a thick ear and yes, " serious kicking" by the Platoon Sgt has much more effect than any verbal roasting or charges.

I don't agree 500n, you see bullying is insidious and corrosive and is the very antithesis of the principle of self-discipline and the concept of teamwork on which so much of the success of the armed forces is founded. I do however, accept that there is a fine line between unnecessarily overbearing behaviour and the robust approach to training and discipline that the armed forces have to take to prepare their people for the harsh environment in which they operate.
No one, and that includes you, should be in any doubt that bullying has no place in the armed forces under any circumstances.

[500N]

Karma
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I am not for bullying but many a young soldier or newly commissioned officer has probably come good because the Sect Cmd or Pl Sgt took them behind the Pl Office one day for a bollocking when they stuffed up badly. Hard but fair.

I know I am out of touch with modern day SNAG's and society in general but the odd clip around the ear at school and "tough love" from an Ex Vietnam era RSM who was now a Capt and the Pl Sgt didn't do me any harm at all, in fact they probably put me on the right road.

A few of the Rioters screaming "what about my rights" could do with a bit of a thick ear to make them think twice about doing it again or are you one of those that lays the blame at everyone else but the individual ??????
.

.

[Karma022202]

took them behind the Pl Office one day for a bollocking when they stuffed up badly.

Nothing wrong with a bollocking. But why do it behind the office? Why not just call them into the office and bollock them there?

As for the rioters, they are receiving the prison sentences that they deserve and so some of them will think again.

[500N]

Karma
Do you take everything literally.

"took them behind the Pl Office" is a figure of speech. I just meant out of sight of everyone.

I am sure some of the posters on here received similar bollockings from RSM's, CSM's, SWO's etc or given them in the past.

Have you ever served in the any military ?

[Karma022202]

Have you ever served in the any military ?

Does the SAS count?

[Top Bunk Tester]

Biggest regiment in the world :ugh:

[ZH875]

Am I the only one who hasn't served in the SAS.?



Been to the SAS hotel in Bodo, does that count?........

[Scallywag]

Karma, you've clearly made many friends here since you joined 10 days ago, or perhaps this is a new persona. Our professional colleagues in the special forces are very reticent and wouldn't post in the way you have.

As you're clearly a total fraud, why don't you crawl back to the Special Aholes Section where you belong.

Regards, Scally

[Tankertrashnav]

Does the SAS count?

We must have met then Karma. No I wasn't in the SAS but I ran a shop selling medals and militaria for 12 years and I had a different one of your mates in just about every day. Of course it was always a tap on the side of the nose, a wink, or "I'm not supposed to talk about it" but I was always in no doubt what they were.........





........W****RS!

[Mariner9]

To meet Defstan 91/91, the fuel must consist solely of hydrocarbons and approved additives. Industrial antifreeze will be glycol based, and is therefore neither an approved additive nor a hydrocarbon. No amount of blending could restore it to spec.

Generally, contaminated kero can be used as a viscosity cutter for fuel oil or a cold property improver gas oil blend stock. Severely contaminated kero can in some instances be re-refined. However, the remote location and relatively small quantity involved means it would be uneconomic to ship out, so I suspect it will end up being used locally as a heating oil.

M9 :8

[Always a Sapper]

Difference between 7 days rop's and handing over 200 beer tokens vs a wee 'chat' with the badge or troop S/Sgt and a couple of bruises....

Most lads back in the 80's army would take the chat, which 99% of the times pretty much settled the whole issue, and didn’t waste the beer tokens.


There as also the 'dice' (a pair of large fluffy dice) which the AO used to have along with a book of excuses, if your excuse/lie wasn’t in the book (it soon went in though) you got away with the crime, if it was then you got to roll the dice. Throw a double 6 and you were home free, any other combo left the first number being multiplied by the second number to make up the number of extra duties coming your way.

The rumours that the dice were weighted to favour the number 5 were never proved...

[The Helpful Stacker]

Thanks for that Mariner9. I didn't think it could be blended out but I was running purely off memory so couldn't be sure.

Been awhile since I last tangled with the beast that was the PPTK and with my head currently being filled with clinical practice knowledge my previously comprehensive knowledge of the 'exciting' world of fuels is being forced out.:}

[Roadster280]

Who's talking about bullying?

If you're on the range and turn round with a loaded weapon during a shoot, expect to get punched immediately by the range supervisor. Not bullying, just immediate discipline.

If you've just ruined over 2 million litres of fuel, caused the Falklands aircraft to go U/S, some requiring engine changes, compromising the defence of the Falklands in the process, made the military look incompetent in the media, it's reasonable to assume you'll incur Seabeafy's displeasure. To be visited upon you by an angry man, no doubt.

[MightyGem]

Oh dear. :uhoh:

who made fuel for his diesel generator by mixing aviation fuel with engine oil
Yeah, we used to do that for our gliding winches in Cyprus back in the 80s.

[jamesdevice]

you could actually treat the fuel by converting the glycol into something akin to biodiesel.
You'd have to blend in a matching amount of a long-chain fatty acid (oleic acid or similar), throw in some sodium, heat it and then acid wash it with water to strip out the remaining sodium. You'd then have to dry it with molecular sieves.
The kit to do it can be bought off-the-shelf for making your own biodiesel, but the need to use sodium metal (rather than sodium methoxide) would make the process dodgy unless you were used to handling the stuff. (Sodium is nOT nice) You still probably couldn't use it in an aircraft, but it would at least work as diesel fuel.

[jamesdevice]

Quote:" who made fuel for his diesel generator by mixing aviation fuel with engine oil"

presumably a 2-stroke diesel? It might foul a 4-stroke's injectors

[Mariner9]

James, there are several portable molecular filtration units available that could remove all bar ppm level glycol from kero at relatively low cost (probably abt $100/ton treated on site) However ppm level contamination still precludes the use as aircraft fuel for the reasons I stated above.

M9 (my job involves the investigation and remediation of contaminated oils)

[4mastacker]

Reading the Sun's article, it appears to me that it may have been a Konsin-type anti-freeze that was put in the fuel, rather than engine anti-freeze - it's still a monumental cock-up on an epic scale. I wouldn't have thought that the contaminated fuel would be useful for any ground use, let alone being offered to the bennies. It's a long time since I was at MPA, but ISTR that Konsin was kept in a totally different area to where the FSII was stored, it certainly was no where near any aviation fuel installations. Perhaps THS's knowledge is more up-to-date than mine.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Who's talking about bullying?

If you're on the range and turn round with a loaded weapon during a shoot, expect to get punched immediately by the range supervisor. Not bullying, just immediate discipline.


Discipline my arse it's assault or what ever the current legal definition makes it. It's an assault carried out by a poor trainer and an even poorer supervisor who clearly has no place on a live range :=

[Melchett01]

Does the SAS count?

Was that 24 SAS preceded by 49 Para?

[Mmmmnice]

Just remind me again..........this is an aviation site?..........thought so; it's just difficult to tell at times

[500N]

"Does the SAS count?"

OK Karma, if you claim to be Ex SAS, 2 Questions - PM me the answers:-

1. what was the Lt Col in charge of the SAS in 1978 ?

Reason I ask is our house in Bodenham Road, Hereford (I think it was No 45, a 3 story house) was purchased by him in 1978 just prior to my father being sent to Australia.

If you don't know but are "in the know", then you can find out very quickly.

2. Regarding the Iranian Embassy, who was the SAS CT Team soldier was quite short but built like a Brick outhouse (ie very strong and wide) who participated in the Siege Breaking ???? (I have never seen his name published in any media that I have read whereas some of the participants names have been so don't go looking up Wiki).

And NO, I did not serve in the SAS but was present at a closed door briefing on the Iranian Embassy Rescue by him.


My apologise to Mmmmnice and other posters. I will refrain from deviating from Aviation in future.
.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Karma casts, the float bobs, he strikes and Karma hooks, outstanding bait and outstanding fishing :p:p::p

[Roadster280]

SFFP: I can only comment on my experiences. It never happened to me, but I've seen it. Perhaps that's the difference in Services. The RAF has annual GDT for all staff, and that's surely training. I would agree that a training deficiency would be more prevalent in folk who only go on the range once a year.

In the Army, it's a much more common thing to be on a rifle range, and only a few times in your career would it be under instruction (ie basic training, career courses). Turning round with a loaded weapon during a shoot is stupid and very dangerous. In my experience, such behaviour met with a swift corrective boot or fist. Nobody involved, either the range supervisor, or the firer, or anyone else on the range thought it at all unusual or wrong, nor did it ever go any further.

I don't suppose pushing out "knees to chest" in the Sgt Major's office while explaining why you had transgressed is in the relevant discipline publication either, but it makes short work of a disciplinary chat.

All been replaced with AGAI action now in the Army, so granted, things have moved on. I don't imagine the Pet Op involved will get away with an AGAI in this case though.

[barnstormer1968]

Mmmmnice

After reading this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadster280 http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/463135-sun-raf-fools-2.html#post6688507)
Who's talking about bullying?

If you're on the range and turn round with a loaded weapon during a shoot, expect to get punched immediately by the range supervisor. Not bullying, just immediate discipline.

Discipline my arse it's assault or what ever the current legal definition makes it. It's an assault carried out by a poor trainer and an even poorer supervisor who clearly has no place on a live range :=
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=6688639) http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=6688639&noquote=1)How could you fail to notice the RAF (and aviation in general) slant to this thread (even forgetting the mention of aviation fuel, MPA, the special AIR service and the paras).

From my green background, it was the 'any bad stuff is assault' that really showed what elite front line war fighters the RAF were:}

the rocks, paras, SF (ours and other countries) must be filled with poor trainers going by the above post..........:E


EDITED TO ADD: 500, there are several different SAS units that our fellow poster could belong to/belonged to, so he could have been 21, 22, 23, R or sigs etc (I know I'm using the out of date names here, and 21 and 23 are now reserves or something instead of V, or artists etc), BUT the mention of 49 para always brings a smile to my face, and brings up a mental image of Jim Shortt:)

[jamesdevice]

Mariner9


looks like Konsin is Triethylene glycol + rust inhibitor (and I'd guess at antifuingal / antibacterials as well)

Do you reckon you could get that out?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Mmmmnice

the rocks, paras, SF (ours and other countries) must be filled with poor trainers going by the above post..........:E

Are you really advocating punching as a teaching method :eek:

[Karma022202]

OK Karma, if you claim to be Ex SAS, 2 Questions - PM me the answers:-

Nice try 500N but if I did give you those answers, I would be tried in this country under the official secrets act.

[barnstormer1968]

Seldom

Not for the wider RAF no, but for actual combat fighters, yes.

You may find this hard to understand, but the folks who hit me during my military career, only ever did it after I had made repeated or really stupid errors. If I needed to be taught something they would teach me, and spend as long as it took to make me understand what I needed to know. If I did something really silly, then a kick or punch could come my way. It is very worth noting that I could be stood/laid next to the person who had hit me while under fire, and they not only wanted themselves to come out the other side unscathed, but wanted this for me too. Some of these people depended on me to be spot on in a crisis, and me on them in return. I don't ever remember being hit by someone in anger, or of feeling bullied by anyone.

I'm not sure how some RAF SGT hitting an airman for signing out the wrong sized bolt or screw would help, but a swift punch for failing to point out a trip wire or mine is a bit more relevant (even on exercise).

One example that stands out was during chemical warfare training. Whenever I used to open a new plastic packet of gloves, noddy suit or facelet mask etc I always used to rip open the packets with my teeth (only realising I was doing it as I bit the packet open). Clearly this is not big or clever in a chemical rich environment, but I just kept doing it.
One such time I did this, I was rewarded with a swift tap to the nose with a fist, and perhaps oddly to you I never bit open packets again. Maybe its important to differentiate between the above non personal, open to everyone and guidance based system, as opposed to one person singling out one other individual for repeated harassment.

[Scuttled]

Karma,

I really want to hear more from you, but are you sure that answering these questions would breach the Official Secrets Act? Or are you concerned that you may be paid a visit by some large men in suits?

[Mariner9]

Yes James, it could be removed, but only down to ppm levels. Not good enough for Defstan therefore not for aircraft use. Likely will be cheaper to blend it for use as regular kero or into gas oil/fuel oil.

Probably would cause logistical problems in the Falklands storing it long enough to blend away, so suspect it will be shipped out and sold to a trader.

M9 (definitely not SAS ;))

[Karma022202]

Or are you concerned that you may be paid a visit by some large men in suits?

They come at their own risk.

[glad rag]

Been to the SAS hotel in Bodo, does that count?........

Never mind the top of the tree, did you make it to the "nightclub"? :}

[Grabbers]

"They come at their own risk"? This is pure gold. Keep 'em coming. :ok:

[fergineer]

Karma.....Having just buried an NZ SAS mate you are not the sort that could or would be accepted into the Regt. They are people who keep their occupation to themselves and do not try to high life themselves. So on that you sir are bringing my mate and the Regt into disrespect. They may come from different countries but the comradeship is the same. Please desist your lies and respect the SAS for what they are.

[500N]

"Turning round with a loaded weapon during a shoot is stupid and very dangerous. In my experience, such behaviour met with a swift corrective boot or fist."

I was always taught to get control of the weapon - or at least the end of or close to the end of the barrel first so you could at least control where it was pointed - and then sort the soldier out.

I know of one instance a bloke turned around with an F1 and fired it, stitching a whole mag alongside the Sgt's leg. He got belted.

And wasn't General Patraeus shot in the chest in an incident on a range where someone turned around with a weapon and fired ?


I know swift justice via a Size 10 boot isn't the done thing now but sometimes it is the best method to save lives.


barnstormer1968

Thanks for the run down of units, I am reasonably up with UK SF units
but good info. (I must go and do some research on 49 Para:O)

The SAS / SF people I know wouldn't, AND don't feel the need to say it out loud and when they do, it is generally not "SAS" but something a bit more subtle - like in Aust, the common one is "from the West" (the SAS being in Perth, Western Australia).
.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I know swift justice via a Size 10 boot isn't the done thing now but sometimes it is the best method to save lives.


Sorry but the best method of saving lives is by better training.

If you employ someone who will only learn if the information is punched into them you have got the wrong person for that job.

If you employ someone to instruct, apart from a boxing instructor, who can only get their point across by punching the information home you have got the wrong person for that job.

Some on here might argue that a good kicking might do me some good but can't think of a single time in my 30 something years to date where a learning experience would have been improved by a belt in the chops.

[500N]

SFFP

I don't disagree re "better training" but recruits and junior soldiers still F#%k up occasionally, regardless of good training. I know where you are coming from.

Not much difference between a belt in the chops and running round a parade ground in full kit. Still has the same effect.
.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

SFFP

I don't disagree re "better training" but recruits and junior soldiers still F#%k up occasionally, regardless of good training. I know where you are coming from.

Not much difference between a belt in the chops and running round a parade ground in full kit. Still has the same effect.
.

Being where you are in the world you won't have seen our tv news today, suffice to say not too sure the belt in the chops method, which would appear to have been Army SOP for many years is currently being considered as that acceptable.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

re the range problem,
I've seen it happen, with a Rock range instructor using one hand to grasp near the muzzle (for maximum leverage), and the other hand, with the five digits grouped in a tight bunch, used to persuade the miscreant to immediately release the weapon.
100% effective and the safest way to solve the problem, which is the point.
The art of range instructing is not letting it get to this point, but in this case the Instructor had to take people he did not know.

500N, 49 para details here, courtesy of the Pongoes, but you didn't hear it from me, right ;)

49 Para - ARRSEpedia (http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/49_Para)

24 SAS details at same source

[500N]

Fox3
That is exactly how to do it. Primary focus on where the muzzle is pointing, secondary focus on, calmly if possible getting hold of the rest of the weapon and if not, as you said. never had to do it but have had to grab the barrel in the past.

I did know what 49 Para is, I was joking about looking it up. I have seen that
ARRSEpedia thread before, it is quite good.

[oldpinger]

Whilst I'm interested in the ways you can screw up a fuel supply, the B*llocks posted by Karma is much more fun. Interesting to read two threads on the same one, well three if you count the bullying parts.:confused:

On the fuel thread, I did hear of a Lynx in GWI that refuelled at a petrol station, the only mistake he made was use Petrol rather than Diesel, which would only have blocked a few things rather than crisp the burner cans in the engines.Having flown a helo that would burn just about anything made form Hydrocarbons, be interesting to find out.

Urban myth? anyone got any info?

[Roadster280]

Well I seem to have stirred up a bit of a hornet's nest there. I was simply trying to give an example.

However, it seems some see the range as an instruction thing, where others see it as practice.

If I could draw an RAF parallel, if you're in ATC, when you've qualified and on watch in the tower, it's not training, it's doing the job. You're expected to produce the goods. Same with a trained soldier on the range.