Aircraft Carrier Question

[Jane-DoH]

In the United States, Aircraft Carrier CO's and XO's are both either Naval Aviators or Naval Flight Officers. In the Royal Navy, is this the same case?

[diginagain]

Not at this time, no.

[cazatou]

Nor in the foreseeable future!!

[Obi Wan Russell]

Although not a requirement, quite a lot of RN carrier COs have been naval aviators. Those that weren't were surrounded by enough naval aviators in their command staff to bridge any gaps in their own experience. To suggest that a carrier CO without direct experience as an aviator will somehow by unable to command a carrier to it's full capability in combat (which I assume is the underlying point of the question) is incorrect. Also their are still RN naval aviators in the promotion pipeline today who will be in line for command of HMS Illustrious (up to 2014), HMS Ocean (up to 2016-18) and HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales (2016 and beyond). Not exclusively by any means, but sufficient.

[orca]

I disagree. You can surround yourself with whomsoever you fancy, but if you have no experience of what you are actually setting out to do then you are simply not the real deal. It's why 16 Air Assault Brigade is commanded by a para, not a submariner with a staff of paratroopers.

You wouldn't find a skimmer commanding a submarine without having done perisher would you, so why on earth would an officer who has never 'struck' command a 'strike' platform?

[Trim Stab]

their are still RN naval aviators in the promotion pipeline today who will be in line for command of HMS Illustrious


FAA Officers? Or Warfare Officers who have done a couple of tours with the FAA?

[airborne_artist]

Orca - you sound a bit like Canute, the fact is that quite a few carrier Captains have not been aviators. There haven't been any FJ lookers for a very long time, so should they be ruled out for carrier command too?

[airborne_artist]

Crafty delete there FodPlod - Peter Hill-Norton was a gunnery officer :ok:

[Trim Stab]

It's why 16 Air Assault Brigade is commanded by a para,


Not always - it was recently commanded by an AAC bod. In that sense, no different from a Warfare officer commanding a carrier.

I heard though that in recent years it has become much harder for FAA officers to get enough sea-time to qualify for command.

[Pontius Navigator]

Was Captain Guy D'Oyly-Hughes D.S.O. and bar, D.S.C., RN a naval aviator?

[airborne_artist]

Wiki suggests that though he was a submariner he had learned to fly, "and continually rejected the advice of the ship's professional aviators".

Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_D%27Oyly-Hughes)

[Pontius Navigator]

And so would qualify as a non-specialist which rather proves the point.

[Trim Stab]

And so would qualify as a non-specialist which rather proves the point.


I've only done occasional overnighters on RN warships, but even in those brief visits I heard apocryphal stories about WAFU officers crashing frigates. Does that prove that no aviator should ever be allowed to drive a ship?

[Tourist]

Wafu officers and Pilots in all other airforces regularly crash planes too. Perhaps we should exclude pilots from aircraft?

[4Greens]

There was an argument, currrent in my day, that fishheads were best for carrier command.
The theory being that ex aviators were still driving their old aircraft and tried to interfere in flight ops that they didn't understand. The aircraft side of things was best left to Commander Air. Also the fishheads were well qualified in the carrier driving stuff.

I tend to still agree.

[Wrathmonk]

Similar argument but different uniform - should the station commander of a Royal Air Force flying station be aircrew or not? Should he/she be experienced on type or is being aircrew good enough?

The theory being that ex aviators were still driving their old aircraft and tried to interfere in flight ops that they didn't understand

I've seen a few RAF station commanders, even those "experienced" on type (but perhaps a bit 'out of date'), do just this!

[Schiller]

Carrier command used often to be given to those destined for high office who were not aviators to give them a deeper understanding of naval air. Admiral Le Fanu, a gunnery specialist and later 1SL, was given a years command of Eagle for this reason, for example. He became an enthusiastic supporter of naval air, frequently occupying the back seat of a Bucc when he reached senior flag rank.

[Union Jack]

Diginagain has given a correct albeit brief answer to Jane's question but, amidst the predictable inter (and intra!) Service badinage that follows there are certain observations worth adding.

Inasmuch as it is extremely rare for the XO of a carrier to be a Fleet Air Arm officer, the answer is indeed "No", and there is no specific requirement for either the CO or XO to be an aviator, given that I seem to recall that a recent XO of ILLUSTRIOUS was an aviator.

That said, I regret that Orca's comment that "You wouldn't find a skimmer commanding a submarine without having done perisher would you ...?" is a less than perfect analogy since this is really no different from to saying quite correctly that "You wouldn't find a non aviator commanding a Naval Air Squadron without having Passed Command Exam (Air) would you ...?".

This is because, much as Schiller says, both former submarine and squadron COs with the right potential can go go on to command one or more surface ships of any kind and very successfully so. I can think of several examples amongst submariners, not least the present First Sea Lord who commanded ILLUSTRIOUS, the present CINCFLEET and a recent Second Sea Lord and CINCNAVHOME both of whom commanded INVINCIBLE, and, rather longer ago, the late and great Admiral John Fieldhouse commanded HERMES for a short while whilst still in the rank of Commander.

As highlighted above, the key words for appointment to higher command in the Royal Navy are "the right potential" and I would be both surprised and sad if this ever changed.

Trust that you are happy now Jane!:ok:

Jack

[FODPlod]

FAA aviators have frequently commanded DD, FF and MM Squadrons (only MM Squadrons remain these days) but for some odd reason, reciprocal rights have yet to be offered with respect to Naval Air Squadrons. :)

[PeterGee]

So I am just a dumb ex fishehead that probably shouldn't be here, but how bizarre. I have never seen an aircraft carrier fly and don't expect that to change. If that does happen though, I agree, the skipper woudl have to be a qualified time served pilot.

However, as this is today, I think a carrier is actually a ship, where aircraft happen to be its primary weapon system. Maybe that, to me obvious, point is the core to the light blue dark blue issue. To drive a submarine you need to be a submariner, because your driving a submarine! But to drive a ship you must have proven yourself as a ship driver not a plane driver. Seems obvious to me??

Any Captain of a carrier would I believe have already proven themselves as a skipper on a FF or DD. Proven is as others have said, demonstrated a readiness for higher command. A skipper of a DD or FF could be general service, a submariner or a wafu. I certainly have had skippers from all sources.

To drive a carrier you are responsible for a complete weapon system. Engine, aircraft, weapons, sensors, communications ...... You have a commander air who owns flying things, who is responsible for everything that flies, even though he could ex Harrier and there are only RW assets left. In turn of course there are squadron leaders. Each layer is trusted appropriately to do their job. As such the skipper will know and be measured on his ability to use air power, but doesn't need to have flown.