R-Day!!! [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

OpsLoad8

1st Sep 2011, 11:07

Having just received my yellow letter, there seemed to be an awful lot of people with similar coloured and sized envelopes. There are several who are being given marching orders and a couple who, despite applying, were unsuccessful. There doesn't appear to be any rhyme or reason - no changes there then.

Happy for those who got the news that they were after. Feel for those who didn't.

Final quote from someone at ISK today which to me, summed it all up:

"I'm still in the RAF. Looked around the coffee bar this morning and saw many, many wonderful guys I've flown with. Pleased for those who got what they want, saddened for those who had hoped for a different result. Gutted that so many will disappear from my world. Best wishes to you all."

OL8

Willard Whyte

1st Sep 2011, 12:10

So, what's the best way to spend/invest £100,000+

5 Forward 6 Back

1st Sep 2011, 12:12

You could pay for my ATPL?

Willard Whyte

1st Sep 2011, 12:19

Feel free to pay my mortgage for the next 20 years.

airborne_artist

1st Sep 2011, 12:31

So, what's the best way to spend/invest £100,000+

Adopt my three daughters (18, 20 and 23) just in time to pay for their weddings? :E

5 Forward 6 Back

1st Sep 2011, 12:31

How big is your house?

Willard Whyte

1st Sep 2011, 12:32

4-bed.

I suppose I could let out the garden to gypsies and put a family of illegal immigrants in the smallest (7' x 9') bedroom.

Airborne Aircrew

1st Sep 2011, 12:47

put a family of illegal immigrants in the smallest (7' x 9') bedroom.

Come now... A bit of hot bedding and you could get six families in there...:}

dropintheoggin

1st Sep 2011, 12:47

AA

Is that you advertising your daughters on here?! ;)

minigundiplomat

1st Sep 2011, 14:36

Airborne Artist,

You have my sympathy. I have 3 elder sisters, all of whom got married in the space of 10 months, shockloading my poor fathers wallet. He did seriously consider forking out for 6 first class rail fares to Gretna Green and telling them to get on with it, before relented in the end, and parting with the equivalent of a small nations GDP.

MGD

shandyman

1st Sep 2011, 15:16

Wee little yellow envelope in hand, fortunate that I got what I wanted.
To be honest, what a fantastic twenty five years but when it's time to go it's time to go.
The camerarderie and flying will be sorely missed and my vocabulary doesn't quite stretch to define my thoughts on the situation as a whole.
Enough to say that I am proud to have done my bit, will miss the flying tremendously, will doff a cap to those that have gone before and shake the hands and offer advice to those pushing on.
Per Ardua Ad Astra my friends . . . . .

MFC_Fly

1st Sep 2011, 15:18

Well, I have heard a few names that have got compulsory that have surprised, no - totally amazed me!!!! Don't know how they decided but some bloody good guys (both personally and professionally) got the letter this morning :sad:

ghostnav

1st Sep 2011, 16:01

I was not in the bracket but I just want to wish those who are leaving voluntarily the best of luck!

For those pushed, you have my sympathies and I trust you will find a great future out of the RAF.

betty swallox

1st Sep 2011, 19:00

Having just read this thread, I'm really quite shocked by a number of the posts. I'm shocked by the naivety, flippancy and rude tone of a few posts. Comparing what happened today in crewrooms to a schoolgirls common room is, frankly, pathetic.
I know a number of the folks involved today; many were not volunteers and have taken this badly.
And if you (you know who you are) feel like posting, "if you can't take a joke etc", forget it. I've been in the mob for 20 odd years, and I'm presently consoling my non-volunteer partner.
Please have a long hard think before posting what may make a difficult situation worse.

BossEyed

1st Sep 2011, 19:06

Willard Whyte

1st Sep 2011, 19:08

'betty', I don't think there's anything out of order here.

I've done 21 years, 22 when I'll be leaving against my will a year from now. 'Black' humour, and I would opine this thread contains no more than light aircraft grey*, has been part and parcel of military life for an aeon, today is no different.

I'm gutted, but laughter can help the pain.

* © Humbrol

betty swallox

1st Sep 2011, 19:19

Willard
Thanks for that. Predictable.
If you've done 20 odd years, you'll be entitled to a full pension.
Spare a thought for those who have done half as much, and aren't approaching a pension point, and may have to wait a considerable time for a pension. And the prospect of employment outside may be somewhat daunting...in this economic climate.
I'm all up for humour, however, if you think me suggesting "have a think before you post" is wrong, that's up to you.
Regards,
BS

airpolice

1st Sep 2011, 19:20

Betty, please tell us how anything on here will make things worse?

The forced premature end of what should have been a career until age 55 is devastating for some. How on earth is some humour on a forum going to compare with what was in the envelope this morning.

I'd suggest that anyone with sufficient remaining capacity for being upset by pprune, is not entirely consumed by the redundancy issue.

What exactly is the issue with having to get a job in the real world? You may have noticed that some people are still able to do so. Quality rises to the surface, and the scum floats on the top. Sometimes it is hard to determine what you are looking at, but some people will demonstrate to their next employer, what made them of value to their previous employer. Technical skills may not transfer, but personal skills do.

betty swallox

1st Sep 2011, 19:31

Airpolice
I'm really not interested in a slagging match. I'm merely suggesting a bit of sensitivity. That's all.
You misread my post. I'm not suggesting folks aren't willing to work, or get a job. Just that a lot of plans may have been scuppered.
My lady is one of the compulsory redundancies, so we are all too aware of not being consumed by pprune!!
Please take my posts in the spirit they were intended, not as me having a go as a humourless fool!

MFC_Fly

1st Sep 2011, 19:40

Spare a thought for those who have done half as much, and aren't approaching a pension point
Or the top bloke at ISK (well, a French hair-dresser :ok:) who has been dumped on big time - he will be out, not through choice, less than a year before reaching his IPP :ugh:

Sir George Cayley

1st Sep 2011, 19:46

Heard an RAF chap on R4 today IC redundancies. He was saying that the RAF would do everything to help those made redundant transition from service life to civilian life.

Nice that. No mention of help with finding a job.

Sir George Cayley

Willard Whyte

1st Sep 2011, 20:07

Are the villages you both reside in next to each other?
You represent them well.

St Mawgan, forgive me, I'm on a bit of a mental pulse doppler sine wave right now, can't quite tell what direction you're going with that one. No matter, problems of my own to cope with right now, different boat, same rough seas ahead.

Could be the last?

1st Sep 2011, 20:13

With the potential for a further 3 tranches in the pipeline, I wonder how anything will get done over the next few years or what effect that this debacle of an SDSR will have on the future capabilities of the RAF and military as a whole?

Whilst the threat of redundancy remains, those that are coming into the bracket or have seen comrades getting compulsory redundancy today, will inevitably adjust their focus to life outside and configure their day-to-day activities accordingly. i.e. you want me to do what as a secondary duty........... sorry no can doo!!

And to add insult to injury, there is a Reserve Commitment for all those with a Blue Letter today!! WTF:mad:

QTRZulu

1st Sep 2011, 20:41

Does that mean I don't have reserve commitment as my letter was most definitely yellow in colour :ok:

iRaven

1st Sep 2011, 20:51

I posted this on the PVR thread, reminds me of Hotel California "You can check out, but you can never leave..."

258. In addition to members of the reserve air forces who are liable to call-out as described above certain officers and former airmen may be recalled for service in the Royal Air Force. The difference from call-out is that they rejoin the Royal Air Force rather than serve in the reserve air forces (sections 65 - 77 and Chapter 2 of AP3392, Vol. 7). Once recalled, they must serve until released.

259. Liability to be recalled for service. Recall applies to any person not serving in the Royal Navy, the Royal Marines, the Army or the Royal Air Force or the reserve forces who:

a. Holds a commission as an officer, or

b. Has served as an airman, is under the age of 55, has not become an officer and it is not more than 18 years since he was discharged or transferred to the reserve (section 66).

260. The provisions of the 1996 Act do not apply to any person who became an officer or enlisted in the Royal Air Force before that Act came into force. Such personnel remain liable to recall under the Reserve Forces Act 1980 unless they have elected to be subject to the new provisions or have re-enlisted, re-engaged or extended their service after that date (s.66(6)).

261. Personnel recalled may be liable to serve anywhere in the world unless when they were last members of the Royal Air Force they were liable to serve only in the United Kingdom or any part of it.

262. Power to authorise recall for national danger, great emergency or attack on the UK. Her Majesty may make a recall Order, signed by the Secretary of State, when it appears to her that national danger is imminent or that a great emergency has arisen, or in the event of an actual or apprehended attack on the United Kingdom. It does not therefore apply to warlike operations, peacekeeping or humanitarian operations.

a. The making of an order must be reported to each House of Parliament immediately. Parliament must assemble within five days if it would not otherwise met.

b. Anyone recalled is entitled to be released (officers) or discharged (airmen) when his aggregate called-out or recalled amounts to three years in the previous six years, although the three years may be extended to five by order. Anyone may agree to serve beyond the set limit.

263. The 1996 Act sets out detailed provisions concerning the recall of personnel, their acceptance into, release and discharge from, service under a recall order.
from the RAF legal Service website at this link (RAF - Page not found).

The 1996 Reserve Forces Act (Reserve Forces Act 1996)

Gives the following authority for recall:

(1) Her Majesty may make an order authorising the recall under this Part of persons to whom section 66 applies—

(a) if it appears to Her that national danger is imminent or that a great emergency has arisen; or

(b) in the event of an actual or apprehended attack on the United Kingdom.

whereas authority to call out the reserves for:

(1) Her Majesty may make an order authorising the call out under this Part of members of a reserve force—

(a) if it appears to Her that national danger is imminent or that a great emergency has arisen; or

(b) in the event of an actual or apprehended attack on the United Kingdom.

or

(1) The Secretary of State may make an order authorising the calling out of members of a reserve force if it appears to him that warlike operations are in preparation or progress.

or

(1) The Secretary of State may make an order authorising the calling out of members of a reserve force if it appears to him that it is necessary or desirable to use armed forces—

(a) on operations outside the United Kingdom for the protection of life or property

zedder

1st Sep 2011, 21:15

Were you to happen to fail the RAF Fitness Test in the last couple of months before leaving on redundancy, would they be able to recall you and make use of you?

middleground

1st Sep 2011, 21:59

Sad day for HM Forces all round. Good luck to those that got what they wanted and even more good luck to those that didn't hopefully one day you can look back and be glad it turned out the way it did.

To those at ISK bidding farewell to us left in blue, enjoy your futures what ever it may bring. It was a honour and pleasure to fly with you (some that is ;))

c130jbloke

2nd Sep 2011, 05:25

Good luck to all those who got the bad news.

To those who think the world has caved in - it has not. All you are doing is leaving a job and moving onto another phase of your lives. That's it.

It's just a job. :sad:

The Old Fat One

2nd Sep 2011, 06:28

Re the above and others...

I suggest their are 4 catergories affected

Volunteers....happy as larry

Compulsory, but with pension and payoff....mixed feelings but basically OK

Compulsory, but not long in...shattered at losing their dream, but young enough to get on and use their talents elsewhere.

Compulsory, many years, in but not yet with immediate pension (or whatever the **** you call it now)...if it was you or I in the group how ****ing angry and upset would we be? My heartfelt sympathy lies with this group, so maybe cut them some slack?

Whatever group your in, remember this...

Next time you hear some politician saying anything along the lines of...

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do blah blah etc"

Consider who the fool is. Him/her for saying it; or you for buying it.

Whenurhappy

2nd Sep 2011, 07:14

Spare a thought for the poor souls who have been made redundant at our few remaining overseas locations. If you are in Germany, for example, your transition/resettlement has to be done in-country - or you pay to fly back to the UK. Fine if you want to do a basic plumbing/plastering/brick-laying course with a bunch of young squaddies, but rubbish if you want to follow a professional career.

Then there is all the hassle of getting repatriated to the UK - posted, nominally, to a UK unit, possibly via quarters. Some units are happy for you to simply slope off and get on with your life, others insist that you attend and submit leave passes etc and are given 'projects' to complete within your remaining days in uniform.

And don't start me on with the new, global, Agility Movements contract. Major software problems with the on-line form, abusive staff and a bunch of sub-contractors with the geographical understanding of, well, a mover. Gone are the days of hiring a van and humping and dumping it yourself. Simply not possible. Have I just caused thread drift?

Red Line Entry

2nd Sep 2011, 07:35

While it's a cack situation for those being shown the door who didn't want to go, if you think the military is treating people badly, try finding another employer that would sack people but give them a year's notice and a 9 month salary tax free lump sum.

(with the very significant acknowledgement that you're unlikely to find another employer that might ask you to die for them!)

Indicating Full

2nd Sep 2011, 08:26

I applied and was succesful but still have mixed feelings.

The covering letter had a statement of entitlement which was £15,000 less than that which I'd calculated online.

I went to PSF to enquire to be met by a barricade stating "PSF is closed for staff training on Thursday afternoons" - Priceless.:ugh:

I ignored the sign but managed to restrain myself from putting my boot through it.

OpsLoad8

2nd Sep 2011, 08:47

Vim and AT Mov

Not sure about the breakdown by trade, but of the 86 in the bracket, 56 have gone, of which 17 were non-applicants.

dctyke

2nd Sep 2011, 08:56

Quote: While it's a cack situation for those being shown the door who didn't want to go, if you think the military is treating people badly, try finding another employer that would sack people but give them a year's notice and a 9 month salary tax free lump sum.

(with the very significant acknowledgement that you're unlikely to find another employer that might ask you to die for them!)

While (mainly in the lower ranks) expecting you to carry on working for a great deal of that notice period as if nothing had happened whilst preparing to throw your wife and family out of your MQ. It happened in previous tranches! I feel for one and all of them.

November4

2nd Sep 2011, 10:35

While (mainly in the lower ranks) expecting you to carry on working for a great deal of that notice period as if nothing had happened whilst preparing to throw your wife and family out of your MQ. It happened in previous tranches! I feel for one and all of them.

Apart from the throw you out of MQs, the organisation that I work for expected those that were recently made redundant to work up to their last day. That was after giving 4 - 6 weeks notice that you had been selected. We had known that redundancy had been coming since Nov last year but no knew numbers or who was going until they got the letter giving them the notice.

They did offer a couple of in house training courses on writing CVs and interview techniques but due to the numbers not everyone could get on the course.

Oh and they re-wrote the redundancy package in January so that those who were going would go on less generous terms.

It's great working for a public sector organisation....

5 Forward 6 Back

2nd Sep 2011, 11:11

Interesting comment about the statement of entitlement not matching what you had calculated online, as I'm relying on that calculation being accurate in case I feature in future tranches!

Other people selected; did your statement of entitlement tally up with what the redundancy calculator told you? Are you entitled to a resettlement grant on top of the special capital payment?

Tankertrashnav

2nd Sep 2011, 11:26

Is it really just 9 months salary (plus I'm assuming something like 3x pension as a lump sum)? When I took redundancy in 1977 the terms then were 15 months salary plus 3x pension. The figures look laughable (I got around £10k), but that enabled me to put a 50% deposit on a pretty decent house, not the case with Willard Whites example of £100k.

SRENNAPS

2nd Sep 2011, 12:17

The covering letter had a statement of entitlement which was £15,000 less than that which I'd calculated online.

I came out in 2007 on Tranche 3 of that redundancy campaign. There was an online calculator; however, before we applied we also had the ability to request a written calculation of what was on offer. That way there could be no argument and if there was a problem at least you could contest it with your “bit of paper”.

Did you have the opportunity to request the information formally?

I for one would not have been satisfied to have decided my fate with just a random on-line calculator and no written agreement of the lump sum. And I don’t mean any disrespect to you.

As it was, my final lump sum was even bigger than the calculation so I was well happy. Sorry, I am not rubbing in salt. The original figure had not taken into account pay rises etc.

Final question, does anybody remember how many people were involved in “my” 3 tranches of redundancy?

Scuttled

2nd Sep 2011, 14:31

I thought those redunded got only 6 months pay, if past the ipp?

SRENNAPS.

Whilst understanding your point about making an informed decision on whether to jump or not, I assume that like the vast majority 'Indicating Full' was selected as a none volunteer.

Therefore, as I did, he probably had a quick look online a couple of months ago to get an idea of what he would walk with. Most will be in the same situation. They didn't ask to go.

cazatou

2nd Sep 2011, 15:37

Ttn

Surely you must be mistaken - you will remember (as I do) that the 1975 Redundancy Scheme was proclaimed as "Positively the last Redundancy Scheme the RAF will ever have."

ShyTorque

2nd Sep 2011, 16:16

Heard an RAF chap on R4 today IC redundancies. He was saying that the RAF would do everything to help those made redundant transition from service life to civilian life.

I got the following help from the RAF on leaving: "Hand your kit back in and give us your ID card. The main gate is over there..."

They even took away my wife's car pass in advance and tried to stop her getting back to the MQ, which was outside the main gate. We hadn't yet moved out. :hmm:

SRENNAPS

2nd Sep 2011, 16:26

Scuttled, I think he did!

I applied and was succesful

My company of 700 has just completed a redundancy of 200 of its’ workforce. 100 took voluntary and 100 got compulsory. Everybody was able to find out how much they would get if it happened. They did not ask to go either, but they made sure they found out!

Oh and by the way, the support I got when I left the RAF (only 4 years ago) was a million times better than the support that my fellow workmates got recently.

Scuttled

2nd Sep 2011, 17:48

SRENNAPS

I'm an idiot, my apologies. In that case I agree entirely.
:oh:

SRENNAPS

2nd Sep 2011, 20:42

Scuttled

Many thanks but no need for the apology. Emotions are high and I really feel for all of those that have been given redundancy, whether it be voluntary or compulsory.

Unless you have been through it yourself, you cannot imagine how it feels.

When you open that letter, after nearly thirty years service, and you realise that you have been selected, you honestly don’t know whether to laugh, shout or cry. I did all three and I am not embarrassed to admit that I did cry… big style. It really is a life changing moment and it is a moment in your life when you need the closest friend you have (i.e my wife for me) to be next to you. Unfortunately for me I was the other side of the country for a top table. After I rang her with the news, I spent an hour, on my own, in a room in the Sgt’s Mess, trying to come to terms with what had just happened. It was hard.

I then went on to get completely hammered at the top table with the support of all my friends and colleagues. It truly was a great “Top Table”. And my Top Table a few months later…well that was even better.

I wanted my redundancy because I thought the time was right. I have no regrets and fully enjoy the life that I now live. But I don’t think I will ever stop thinking about what might have been had I stayed in.

One thing though, I cannot imagine what the feeling is for those that got compulsory and truly did not want it. I am gutted for you and to be quite frank it is so wrong.

Cheers and all my best to those involved.

Indicating Full

2nd Sep 2011, 21:25

Thank you SRENNAPS for answering Scuttled's question. Yes, I was a volunteer and would have still applied even if the lower figure had come out of the calculator.

SRENNAPPS,

It wasn't just a random calculator I found; it was the official calculator referred to in the redundancy DIN. I know it came with a health warning that the figures might not be completely accurate but an error in the region of 13 per cent is taking the mickey.

You wouldn't believe the run around I've had trying to get answer. PSF referred me to the JPAC who referred me to the RFP who referred me to PSF but the Chf Clk is on leave today so you'll have to ring back Monday.

I wasted the remaindervof the morning trying to book a CTW. The briefing pack said I can apply ASAP but when I rang she said I needed to attend a brief first. I know that my unit resettlement is managed from Lyneham but the lady in the RRC said that Lyneham is closed so you'll have to ring Brize. I ignored that and rang Lyneham. They are open but the lady in the know is on leave this week.:ugh:

I've never criticised my employer on this forum and I'm not about to start now. I'm sure someone will do it on my behalf.

SRENNAPS

2nd Sep 2011, 22:01

Indicating Full,

As I said I meant no disrespect to you. It really sounds like things have gone down hill fast since I left 4 years ago. No help from anybody and a run-around from those that are present. Not what you need at this moment in time. It really is a shame, but to be honest I saw the trend developing well before I left. The RAF (and civilian support) are full of them. Its getting worse and I am so glad I had my time when I had it!

Hope it all works out for you. All the best.

Seldomfitforpurpose

2nd Sep 2011, 22:16

The very notion that "Blunt Command" was closed on a day of this magnitude shows just how ****** up we are, the Chief Clerk and his folk should have had open doors all round every station we own :=

Wyler

3rd Sep 2011, 07:21

At this location it was handled about as well as it could be under the circumstances. One to one interviews to which a friend or rep could be brought. All PSF immediately available (literally doors open and everyone sat at their desks ready) along with SSAFA, Padre etc. All Flt/Sqn/Wg Cdrs on station and, again, immediately available.
Did not lessen the impact and, in a couple of cases, complete devastation, but it was as compassionate as it could be.
For the unit that had Admin shut, I would sack the CO.:mad:

Mr-Burns

3rd Sep 2011, 07:54

I know of three people who, having never deployed in their lives and who proudly sport a Jubilee medal only, applied for an OOA thus protecting them from redundancy. Their plan worked and they got 4 months in some staff tour in Afghan (so far behind the lines that they had to send their washing forward) and survived the 1st Tranch. Lets hope they get discovered tranches 2 & 3.

pamac51

3rd Sep 2011, 09:29

For those stations that had Chf Clks on leave/PSF closed on such a day as R Day - don't sack them - shoot them:\

Duncan D'Sorderlee

3rd Sep 2011, 09:40

IMHO ISK made the best of a crap deal. The Maritime community took a battering - I was going to say decimated, but that implies 1 in 10! It was humbling to see how the news was taken by some of the finest people that I have had the priviledge to work with.

All the best to Mrs Swallox and everyone else who got their marching orders. It has been an honour!

Duncs:ok:

Wrathmonk

3rd Sep 2011, 13:54

stations that had Chf Clks on leave/PSF closed on such a day as R Day

Why not name and shame them on here .......

Edited to add - the stations not the individuals :O

Biggus

3rd Sep 2011, 15:14

SRENNAPS,

Reference your earlier question at post 48, in the round of redundancies you were involved in there were 510 personnel in Tranche 1, 1200 in 2 and 819 in 3....

Tranche 3 were informed in writing on 12 Oct 06, almost 5 years ago....

RAF target strength was 41,000 by Apr 08.... :{

betty swallox

3rd Sep 2011, 16:37

Ah, Duncs. At last some sense! Cheers, and thanks for the sentiments! Agree strongly!!

SRENNAPS

3rd Sep 2011, 19:58

Biggus

Many thanks for the info. I must admit I did not realise it was that many!

Tranche 3 were informed in writing on 12 Oct 06, almost 5 years ago....

Tell me about it. I cannot believe how fast the time has gone. Miss it all, but no regrets.
Cheers

Duncan D'Sorderlee

3rd Sep 2011, 20:19

I don't think that there has been any indication of the tranche 2 fields; in fact the announcement has been delayed.

Duncs:ok:

akula67

3rd Sep 2011, 20:28

Let's face it we were stiched at ISK. How come waddo only took so few hits and why, because we were led up the garden path. Yes I am angry and bitter but when you give 25 years of your life and are then given the heave ho how are you suppose to feel. Yes I'll get a pension but a lot wont and all those briefs about the pain being shared, what a load of B*&**$%s. This country is playing with fire and it will bite us in the ass, 6 billion barrels of oil down south will only be the start and what good will your super typhoon and uav be not much without an aircraft carrier and mpa.

Enough of the rant best of luck to all and who knows maybe someone will see sence but I doubt it.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/icons/icon8.gif

Vim_Fuego

3rd Sep 2011, 20:43

The RAF now have some time to sit back and see who bolts due to not getting an offer in tranche one...Fuelled by cunningly released wooly directives on the tranche two timings and numbers many will just cut their losses whilst the job market in some areas seems to be bouyant...It could be a sizeable saving when they do and a smaller tranche 2 to suit.

fabs

3rd Sep 2011, 20:46

I think tranche 2 fields are now due to be released in the new year.

Airborne Aircrew

3rd Sep 2011, 22:12

One wonders why they use the word "tranche".

Why do I believe it is more to protect the feelings of the cutters rather than those of the cut? Why does that disgust me? Do the bosses today lack the intestinal fortitude those of only a quarter of a century or so seemed to have?

Congratulations to those that got their wish and deepest sympathies to those that didn't. Both groups deserved better than you got... :D

Kitbag

4th Sep 2011, 06:51

Willard, why the use of 'tranche'? Simple, it is fashionable and, in the RAF it is associated with modern, forward-looking and punchy, CDS when these decisions were made was Jock Stirrup.

From Wiki:
In other fields, notably aviation, the noun tranche is used to denote a block of units sharing a common standard. The Eurofighter Typhoon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon) which is used by a number of European air forces, was built to a number of successive tranches.

Vim, I'm not sure 'cunning' applies here, that would be giving the leadership far too much credit.

Duncan D'Sorderlee

4th Sep 2011, 08:56

AA,

I don't think that anyone from ISK 'got their wish'; they wanted 21 MRA4 on the line and the ability to continue to provide the best LRMPA support in the world.

However, I grant you that, post SDSR, some of them got their second wish.

Duncs:ok:

Vim_Fuego

4th Sep 2011, 09:26

Let's face it we were stiched at ISK. How come waddo only took so few hits and why

Because you could have seen this coming...Having been until recently one of the people at Waddo it struck me as being an obvious path for the RAF to take with regards to the people sat up at Kinloss awaiting their fate...we knew the training system had been run down in PR09 and the trickle of people through it was hardly keeping pace with the natural outflow of people reaching retirement or just finding other things to do...The fleet is busy (E3) doing something productive which further puts any training under strain.

Now take some of the very capable people up at ISK and start doing the math on keeping them busy but perhaps not productive until a space appears in the training pipeline, then pay to move them and take a place on the OCU. Then wait the 18 months+ for them to achieve CR and a level of unsupervised usefulness....Or you could just leave the trained, already settled and experienced people in place, hope to God not many more leave(!) and rely on the trickle feed to keep you going whilst minimising the spend.

You may have picked up on my tone and that I don't think it's a great way to do business...a great deal of skill is about to walk out the door at Kinloss that would have doubtless excelled at Waddington but I don't believe the recent decisions are being driven wholly by even medium term thinking...They are, as ever and in my opinion, being driven by people under extreme pressure to find savings of ever more expanding dimensions so the right solution is forced out by the necessary action...

A and C

4th Sep 2011, 09:30

Seldomfitforpurpose

4th Sep 2011, 10:00

I think that some of the above fail to understand how lucky they are being made redundant by HMG, you get a big pay off resettlement courses and time to think about what to do next.

I have lost my job three times with no notice,no pay off & no chance of getting the money that is owed to you.......... It was just airline captain to unemployed in a heartbeat.

I know it is disturbing to be out of a job but you guys are at least protected from the worst of it. In total my ex employers owe me IRO £100K with no chance of recovering the money.

I think all In all you are having rather an easy time of redundancy.

This is a classic reason why the Mods should be policing this forum a little more closely, what possible benefit does the above comment from a self confessed civilian have :confused:

These are MILITARY folk losing their MILITARY jobs so the bleatings of some bloody bedwetter who is plainly incapable of holding down gainful employment are of absolutely no relevance what so ever :rolleyes:

cazatou

4th Sep 2011, 10:03

A and C

Just how much of your Flying Career was spent in Sandy Places with people taking pot-shots at you?

Al R

4th Sep 2011, 10:05

For those stations that had Chf Clks on leave/PSF closed on such a day as R Day

As said, they need to be outed.

Shocking.

A and C

4th Sep 2011, 10:12

You are so rude that you are just proving that you are unable to see the advantages of getting the chop from HMG rather than a private company.

As to not being able to hold down a job, I have been in the airline business for twenty years, never failed a check ride of any type and never gone on the dole.

All three companies went bust under me, so there is no question of not being able to hold down a job.

Perhaps if you opened your narrow mind you might have half a chance of holding down a civilian job, you have got the big pay off so now we don't owe you any more and you are going to have to earn your keep in civilian life.

As to the calls for my post to be deleted by the moderators this seems pointless as deleting my post won't make the facts go away.

A and C

4th Sep 2011, 10:14

I take your point, that is why the redundancy terms are so much better than in the civilian world dispite what you read in the Daily Mail.

zedder

4th Sep 2011, 10:17

a great deal of skill is about to walk out the door at Kinloss

Apparently someone made the comment in the Transition Wing coffee bar after the letters were handed out on Thursday, that 1000+ man-years of MPA expertise would be exiting the Service.

Given that a lot of the younger generation only mainly have experience of transitting up and down the boulevard and flying circles while they did ISR, and also that getting an MPA again in the future is still only an unfunded aspiration, in the fullness of time I think it will be clear that the MOD have f***ed up in spades. To be honest in some circles I understand it is very clear that they appreciate that fact now, but we are stuck with the Political decision which was made by the man at the top after all.

In letting various mates know that I got a letter, I found an e-mail from quite a few months ago:

At the moment as I describe it, I don't want to be part of the tin-pot outfit the RAF will be once all the cuts have happened. Even though I'm PA, I don't think there is much chance of me getting to fly anything else, and at the end of the day it's always been the flying I've loved, not the desk jobs. If I stay I'd probably get some dull job down South that would mean doing the weekly commute, hence I am seriously considering applying for redundancy on the 2nd Tranche. That would be an exit date of 31st Aug 12, and would be same date if I was made compulsorily redundant on the 1st Tranche.

I'd started hearing rumours that there might not be many aircrew in Tranche 2, so I was actually starting to worry that as an experienced Tac Nav I'd got my tactics wrong (a very rare event if I say so myself!). Hence I was relieved to get my letter and it has now bought some certainty back into our life.

Looking back it's been a great ride, and as others have said, I've met and worked with some great people. My personal merry-go-round will be stopping in a years time though and I'm ready to get off.

betty-s,
Of all the names on the list I saw I have to say that your better halfs was one of only a couple to activate my WTF caption.

aw ditor

4th Sep 2011, 14:01

As an ex Kipper Fleet individual of the long ago never-to-be-repeated 1975 compulsory redundancies', I wish all the "redundees" the best-of-luck. If you did not volunteer, turn any anger and bitterness you may feel into a "I'll show the ba-----s" motivation, and get on with it! As for the lunatics who got rid of LRMPA may I suggest you never vote for them again. The MRLP awaits! If you in your new civvy' incarnation end up with a T--y MP write and tell them precisely why'.

Lima Juliet

4th Sep 2011, 16:14

It ain't all about you Kipper Mates you know. In this Tranche we've lost AAR, AD, SIGINT, AT and SH experience as well - and they have aircraft to go to (E3D, FSTA, C17/C130J, RJ and a future boat-load of CH47s - plus additional Reaper and if JSF/JCA ever gets cancelled a bunch of F18F/Gs).

Granted, it's been rocky ride for you Moray boys and grils but there are people from LYE, WAD, LEU, etc... that have also suffered.

As someone who has "jumped" on my own terms before being "pushed" on theirs, after the couple of days shock of "Oh Christ, have I done the right thing?", I soon realised I had done the right thing and can't wait to get started in my new job. The resettlement seems to be getting in the way, but it is very comprehensive. I would be very surprised, if individuals are prepared to put themselves about and commute an hour or so, that the vast majority did not find employment. The redundancy payments and resettlement periods on full pay will pay for re-training of some sort, so see it as an opportunity to be the "rats leaving a sinking ship".

Good luck to all, keep your happy memories, I'll see you at the Cenotpah in my bowler hat next year and most of all don't waste this opportunity.

LJ :ok:

P.S. Here are some suggestions for job vacancies for people looking for people like us:

https://atsv7.wcn.co.uk/company/nghr/jobs.cgi?SID

https://apply.gchq-careers.co.uk/fe/tpl_gchq01ssl.asp?newms=srs&c14

Vacancies - Aviation Jobs with CAA Careers (http://www.caacareers.com/jobs.html)

RAF Reserves - FTRS Vacancies (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafreserves/whoweare/ftrsvacancies.cfm)

Aviation Jobs, Airline Jobs, Air Jobs, Jobs in Aviation - AviationJobSearch.com (http://www.aviationjobsearch.com/)

muttywhitedog

4th Sep 2011, 17:36

For those stations that had Chf Clks on leave/PSF closed on such a day as R Day

And what about those units whose Chf Clk was made redundant as a non-volunteer? Should he/she be expected to sit there listening to others complaining they've been sacked/not sacked?

Dont forget it wasnt just growbags who were sacked last Thursday and the unit(s) in question may well be looking for a new Chf Clk in 2012.

pamac51

4th Sep 2011, 17:43

Notwithstanding that a number of Chf Clks may very well have received their own bad news on the day, it was their DUTY to be available to support the other station personnel - I may be wrong but is TG 17 not called something like Personnel Support these days. Just a thought!

Duncan D'Sorderlee

4th Sep 2011, 17:50

Biggus/LJ,

I, for one, am not suggesting that anyone made redundant - applicant or not -got a good deal. Moreover, I know that it is not just about Kipper Mates. However, I am not stationed somewhere else - I work at ISK - and so I cannot comment on their issues. They have the option to post here themselves; I'm happy to read their views.

Duncs:ok:

MFC_Fly

4th Sep 2011, 17:54

I think that "the rash of ISK posts" is probably due to the high number of the PPRuNe members that have been made redundant against their will are based at ISK. And some bloody good, experienced and intelligent guys and girls at ISK have been given the Royal Order of the Boot - seeing some of them get their letter was a huge shock!!

As Duncs said, there is nothing stopping others from elsewhere posting their feelings and thoughts.

MFC

Wrathmonk

4th Sep 2011, 18:12

LJ

Your last link - the figures at the top of the page offer hope - 1634 jobs. Until you see the figure to the left .....293,790 job seekers.:eek:

The best of luck to all those undergoing a career change (by choice or otherwise :uhoh:)

iRaven

4th Sep 2011, 18:14

Some people on 51 that weren't on RJ courses and a bunch of F3 Navs (including about 9x JO Navs before IPP) got the "Royal Order of the Boot". Aircrew in Staff appointments at HQ Air and the AWC also got the "ROB". A bunch of guys/gals at BZN/LYE also got the "ROB".

I agree with Biggus, this is not just a KIS problem - in fact, as he so rightly points out, they may even be better placed than others.

I also agree with LJ - see it as an opportunity and make the most of all the help you can. I would also be staggered if everyone doesn't find a job - just don't be too picky (a usual downfall of jobhunters).

iRaven (starting resettlement now as I expect the "ROB" next time around!)

Lima Juliet

4th Sep 2011, 18:27

Wrathmonk - that's hardly surprising for a Global Website advertising Global Jobs...

Anyway, here are links to others looking for people (remember if it is job in the interests of UK Defence your Boss should be able to let you go early).

https://cobham.taleo.net/careersection/2/jobsearch.ftl?lang=en

MASS - Current Vacancies (http://www.mass.co.uk/mass/vacs.asp)

Vacancies | dstl | Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (http://www.dstl.gov.uk/vacancies)

Your CV is all important and make sure you tailor it to each and every application. At interview be prepared to discuss your bad points as well as your good ones - humbleness vs arrogance is the key!

LJ

Wrathmonk

4th Sep 2011, 19:32

LJ

that's hardly surprising for a Global Website advertising Global Jobs...

Everything is relative - the point I (clearly) failed to make was that you could say that there are approx 180 jobseekers looking/applying for each job. I'm guessing those figures will probably apply whether it is global or just UK. Some people will "luck in" and get the first job they apply for. Others won't.

Lima Juliet

4th Sep 2011, 19:49

Wrathmonk

Fair point - and there's always a bunch of people that apply that don't have anywhere near the Qs or experience as well!

LJ

Seldomfitforpurpose

4th Sep 2011, 19:59

There are some very well intentioned posts in here but I do wonder if any of those "don't worry I did fine so you will be ok" posters actually realise the magnitude of the cup of cold sick that has been served up to many of our people.

Mrs SFFP took voluntary redundancy earlier this year from a very well paid post with the County Council. She was happy to go as I finish next year and wearee off to travel the globe but she went to all the local Agencies for a look see and there is nothing out there that even begins to compare with what she was on. And that's here in the Southwest where there is work.

Now picture some poor soul in ISK or the like who has planned his/her whole life around the commitment they have made to the service. They may have bought their own homes, have partners that work, kids in school and they are now redundant. To get any sort of a decent job they are probably going to have to move so will get hooped in the property market. They are out of work so how the hell are they going to get a mortgage, especially with the rules that are in place at this time.

We are also in a global financial crisis with the country going through some of the toughest times I can ever remember. This has not been handled well and some people are going to end up on the streets for sure.

The B Word

4th Sep 2011, 20:30

In the Highlands there's a pretty big tourist industry, forest/land management, North Sea oil and the normal commercial enterprises - as much as the South West I would say.

On the mortgage front, if taking a new job, I would always look to rent first if relocating anyway. That way you don't end up buying the first place you see, check the "lie of the land" with respect to schools and also, if your probationary period doesn't work out then you don't have a mortgage to worry about.

The one that planned to be at Kinloss for the rest of their life whilst serving in HMforces should not be surprised at having to relocate - that is one of the reasons we get paid X-factor. Otherwise, that individual is in denial and has been taking X-factor on false pretences (and I'm not talking about the thing with Simon Cowell). When I bought houses I always expected to have to sell/rent them out after 3 years and move elsewhere.

I bet Mrs Sffp doesn't have a large tax-free lumpsum, resettlement package with funding and an immediate pension (in some cases) that most of our guys will have. Most don't start on the same salary they left on unless they're lucky, some offset this with an immediate pension and some just have to suck it up (the tax free lump sum should help).

I do not share your gloom, old boy...:ok:

The B Word

A and C

4th Sep 2011, 20:41

Welcome to my world and the world of a lot of people in civil aviation, no one gives a flying **** about you or how you planned to live your life, it's just about the money.

Do I feel for these people? yes because I have been dumped in the situation three times now. You just have to get on your feet and fend for yourself.

To say this has been badly handled is a bit rich, there is a redundancy package that is much better than anything I have ever seen in civil aviation. If you think I am not telling the truth you can ask anyone from Bcal, Dan-air, Air Europe, Debonair, XL, Silverjet, Globespan, Silverjet and few other companies that have slipped my mind at the moment, they will all tell you about the redundancy package that was worth a big fat zero £.

Seldomfitforpurpose

4th Sep 2011, 21:01

B,

I hear what you say but the reality is that there are folk here in Wilts who have spent their whole time here and no doubt ISK and other places will have similar.

If you are a Nimrod AEOp and didn't want to go any where else, once St Mawgan closed where the hell were you going to work?

If you were a Herc ALM and had no desire to move why would the poster move you?

The baldrick world has not functioned in that "3 years and move" manner for years.

I really hope your rosy outlook is right but the cynic in me thinks there will be quite a few folk who are not taking this quite as calmly as you depict.

Airborne Aircrew

4th Sep 2011, 21:10

SFFP

Now picture some poor soul in ISK or the like who has planned his/her whole life around the commitment they have made to the service. They may have bought their own homes, have partners that work, kids in school and they are now redundant. To get any sort of a decent job they are probably going to have to move so will get hooped in the property market. They are out of work so how the hell are they going to get a mortgage, especially with the rules that are in place at this time.

While I won't be as harsh as some others here, (which may or may not surprise you), I somewhat agree with the basic premise. Of all the jobs out there the military is one of the ones most affected by the whims of others, (read: politicians). Thus, in a position that is so potentially fluid I don't understand why people have put down such roots. Yes, I bought a house while I was still in, but I did it in Ash Vale, fifty yards from a railway station that is 40 minutes from London on the morning train... Not somewhere about as far as you can get from "real life". To have made such a commitment to a geographic location was illogical and an impeding disaster waiting to happen and, to be honest, smacks of complacency.

Am I speaking from 50+ years of experience about people with on 30 years or so? Maybe. But I don't think the point is entirely unfounded.

Seldomfitforpurpose

4th Sep 2011, 21:28

Welcome to my world and the world of a lot of people in civil aviation, no one gives a flying **** about you or how you planned to live your life, it's just about the money.

Sorry to disappoint but this is not about me, I am not being made redundant and am not going to be, I will serve to age 55 and then retire, as in never work again

Do I feel for these people? yes because I have been dumped in the situation three times now. You just have to get on your feet and fend for yourself.

As a civilian you will simply not get this but you will never have signed a contract with an employer that states you will fully commit your life to them to age 38/40/47/55 depending on terms of service. You have never said to your employer that you will go where ever when ever they say for as long as they say. You need to have served to understand exactly what service folk give

To say this has been badly handled is a bit rich,

It has been badly handled and badly thought through. There are plenty of folk like me who are close enough to retirement to seriously consider early retirement if offered but it's not even an option. I and others would happily move over and let others step up into our shoes but we are stuck in the pension trap, anyone with half a brain cell could have worked this out

there is a redundancy package that is much better than anything I have ever seen in civil aviation. If you think I am not telling the truth you can ask anyone from Bcal, Dan-air, Air Europe, Debonair, XL, Silverjet, Globespan, Silverjet and few other companies that have slipped my mind at the moment, they will all tell you about the redundancy package that was worth a big fat zero £.

Like I said you're a civvy so will never quite grasp what most of those being made redundant have given up over the years in the service of their country.

Seldomfitforpurpose

4th Sep 2011, 21:37

SFFP

To have made such a commitment to a geographic location was illogical and an impeding disaster waiting to happen and, to be honest, smacks of complacency.

AA,

Just a polite notion and nothing sinister intended but if you had stayed in and had been happy to remain a Chinook crewman do you honestly believe you would have been posted away from Odiham for the fun of it?

If you keep in touch with folk then I would be very surprised to hear that there are none left from your days at Odiham.

There are Herc pilots and ALM's here in Wilts that have been here since I got here 14 years ago and had been here almost as long prior to my arrival.

The kipper fleet will have plenty of similar folk so I am not sure why that is so difficult to understand.

Foghorn Leghorn

4th Sep 2011, 21:48

Seldom, I think that those people that have been in the same location for an extended period of years have been extremely fortunate. I have spoken to many a fast jet guy and they normally get moved to completely different parts of the country after each tour, approximately every 3 years.

Airborne Aircrew

4th Sep 2011, 21:54

SFFP:

Last I heard the three I went through AAITC, Shawbury and 240 OCU with:-

Dave A. was in Oman on Pumas?

John W. was at High Wycombe in Staff position.

Niel E. was at Brize on big, fat things...:).

Do I know how they arrived there? No. Am I silly enough to think that I could still be living happily at Odiham or Benson? No.

The only reason we bought the house was because the market was booming and, because of it's location, even in a bad market, we could sell it in minutes. As it was, and the way things went, we made more selling it after less than 18 months than the RAF paid me annually so it worked out well. Am I a genius? No, my ex-wife was pretty close to it though. ;) Even then, we rented a house on the same street for the previous year to get a feel for everything.

My point? In the military, you can't trust your "leaders" not to screw you over.

Seldomfitforpurpose

4th Sep 2011, 21:59

Foghorn,

I spent my first 14 years as a technician and as such I could work on any aircraft if I did the right training. In that time I worked 1st, 2nd and 3rd line and I worked on FJ, AT and Rotary. We never stayed anywhere longer than 3 years and I served on 5 units including an over seas tour.

Then I went Aircrew. I did 3 tours on Rotary and if I had not asked to move I would still be there. I did move and have spent 14 years on type.

I appreciate others have a different experience but mine is not unique :ok:

Seldomfitforpurpose

4th Sep 2011, 22:10

SFFP:
My point? In the military, you can't trust your "leaders" not to screw you over.

I would never argue with that sentiment however that was your Airforce from all those years ago. Not saying folk no longer get screwed but if you are happy to stay in one place they will only move you as a last resort and that is not a new thing :ok:

Airborne Aircrew

4th Sep 2011, 22:16

SFFP:

Fair enough... It certainly wasn't the policy back then.

Even so, bearing in mind that politicians hold Damocles Sword at all times, trusting them not to drop it is a little naive... I don't think that's a hard concept to grasp.

ArmourerGR1

4th Sep 2011, 22:44

It really depends on what you call new.
I left in 2006 after 22 years and I did move every 3 years and that includes 12 years overseas.

In recent years (last 20 years) the transport fleet and indeed the rotary fleet have tended to be situated in one or two certain locations only.
Where as the FJ fleet have been based over numerous locations and therefore PMA have more options as to where you may be needed.

I agree that as of late the FJ options are narrowing also but I stayed on type for my whole career and still moved continually.

Seldomfitforpurpose

4th Sep 2011, 23:24

Armourer,

You stayed on 1 type for 22 years, if that aircraft had been in 1 location for all that time would you have ever moved?

If you had been VC10 or Herc or Nimrod Aircrew for those 22 years, and happy to remain thus where do you think you would have been posted?

I lived your time and moved like a moving thing but sometimes your training mean your employment options are really limited :ok:

ArmourerGR1

5th Sep 2011, 00:14

If my type was only in one location, no of course I would not have moved and that is exactly my point transport and rotary have been in the same location for years and therefore you have had stability.
Those on FJ get moved around more as they are stationed in a larger number of bases.

As you can guess from the nic I was a groundcrew Armourer and my trade is one of the most diverse in the airforce.
I could have been 1st line, 2nd line, 3rd line Bomb disposal etc, etc.

My point is that the fast jet community as a whole (groundcrew, aircrew and support) have been more transient and therefore have had less of a chance to set down roots.

Seldomfitforpurpose

5th Sep 2011, 00:21

Armourer,

Take a look at post 103, as I said I have lived your life and do not dispute what you say :ok:

A and C

5th Sep 2011, 07:16

You are far to close to all of this to see the big picture, the deal that people are being given to go is far better than you would ever get in civilian life. The deal takes account of the T & C's that the forces work under.

A fine example of this is a mate of mine, a SNCO aircrew who has just got out, his pension deal is good enough for him to retire at age 54. He is planning to never return to working.( I am hoping that I can talk him into working 3 days a week for us.)

There is no deal outside the military that would support someone from 54. So I think that you should take a long hard look at the world outside, it might give you a more balanced view of the deal offered to those being made redundant

airborne_artist

5th Sep 2011, 07:47

There is no deal outside the military that would support someone from 54.

Police officers can retire at thirty years service.

2Planks

5th Sep 2011, 09:24

One year's bankers bonus and I could retire at 30 and live to 150 :E

Biggus

5th Sep 2011, 12:26

SFFP,

Your earlier comment, "...It has been badly handled and badly thought through. There are plenty of folk like me who are close enough to retirement to seriously consider early retirement if offered but it's not even an option....", simply shows that you don't appreciate/understand what is going on.

You are already effectively a part of the redundancy scheme, even though you aren't being paid to go early.

The aim of the SDSR draw down (right or wrong) is to reach a certain target number of people (30,000+ ish - whatever it is) in the RAF by Apr 2015. To reach this figure it is looking at both "natural wastage" and redundancies. Natural wastage represents those who will leave anyway, or not be signed on for further service, by 2015. They will simply not be replaced in terms of recruitment.

You are part of the natural wastage. Therefore you have already been taken into account in the number crunching exercise. If you got some form of early retirement, i.e. redundancy, it wouldn't save anyone else from having to go!!!

Seldomfitforpurpose

5th Sep 2011, 15:26

SFFP,

If you got some form of early retirement, i.e. redundancy, it wouldn't save anyone else from having to go!!!

I fully appreciate that but but what it might have saved is someone else having to go now, which was the point I was trying and failing dismally to make :ok:

hunterboy

5th Sep 2011, 17:41

A and C
What would you class as a decent pension at the age of 54?
Unless it's a serious 5 figure sum, I reckon most people would need to earn something on the side.

A and C

5th Sep 2011, 17:57

That is hard to say and will depend on the individuals past investment in the property market.

I have to say I was very surprised that the Ex SNCO in question turned down my offer of part time employment stating that he did not require the income.

May be after a few months of retirement he will get bored because I would hate to see his talents go unused.

FODPlod

5th Sep 2011, 18:27

What would you class as a decent pension at the age of 54?
Unless it's a serious 5 figure sum, I reckon most people would need to earn something on the side.

A note of caution. People sometimes forget that any personal income over £35,001 and less than £150k attracts 40% tax (2011/12 figures (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm)). So, if for example your pension is £25,001, you will only see 60% of anything earned above £10k (on which you will be paying standard rate (20%) anyway). Then you have NI employee contributions at 12% (2011/12 figures (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/nic.htm)) to factor in.

What first appears to be a reasonably well-paying job may well end up with you working a 46-week year for not much more than the minimum wage.

cazatou

5th Sep 2011, 18:49

One should also remember that, if you retire and live overseas, HMG reserve the right to tax "Government Pensions" in the UK irrespective of where you live in the World. My Wife and I both pay UK Tax on our "Occupational" and "State" Pensions.

middleground

5th Sep 2011, 19:41

Willard Whyte

5th Sep 2011, 21:54

A note of caution. People sometimes forget that any personal income over £35,001 and less than £150k attracts 40% tax (2011/12 figures (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm)). So, if for example your pension is £25,001, you will only see 60% of anything earned above £10k (on which you will be paying standard rate (20%) anyway). Then you have NI employee contributions at 12% (2011/12 figures (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/nic.htm)) to factor in.

What first appears to be a reasonably well-paying job may well end up with you working a 46-week year for not much more than the minimum wage. One needs to add one's personal allowance, currently £7475 for under 65s, on to the £35,000 20% band. 40% is payable when one's income exceeds £42,475 per year. The upper tax threshold will reduce to £34,370 from next April, along with a rise in the personal allowance to £8105 - so the 40% tax bracket will remain £42,475.

So, your wage will have to be £17,475 or more to attract 40% tax given a pension of £25,001.

As I understand it NIC will only be payable on the wage not the pension, £1,229.64 on £17,475 for example.

kevnurse

5th Sep 2011, 21:56

While I won't be as harsh as some others here, (which may or may not surprise you), I somewhat agree with the basic premise. Of all the jobs out there the military is one of the ones most affected by the whims of others, (read: politicians). Thus, in a position that is so potentially fluid I don't understand why people have put down such roots. Yes, I bought a house while I was still in, but I did it in Ash Vale, fifty yards from a railway station that is 40 minutes from London on the morning train... Not somewhere about as far as you can get from "real life". To have made such a commitment to a geographic location was illogical and an impeding disaster waiting to happen and, to be honest, smacks of complacency.

Am I speaking from 50+ years of experience about people with on 30 years or so? Maybe. But I don't think the point is entirely unfounded.

This trash talk can't go without comment. Firstly, I doubt that the general public here in Moray share your view about "real life". Secondly, married service personnel tend to have families and they do not recklessly put down roots in the manner you suggest. At some time in their young lives their children have to go to school and develop a social life. The spouse might have to go to work and meet new people, etc. Putting down roots in an area that the RAF posts you to for at least 2 tours, probably longer as NCA, is inevitable. Its not a choice, you fool. When St Mawgan had a Nimrod force, you might have a had a point. In the early 90's when Kinloss was the sole base for LRMPA, the unit had 2 line squadrons, 3 flying sqns and the OCU. There was a total of at least 500 service personel specially trained to fly and maintain one type of aircraft from one base. You tell me how the RAF could possibly keep them all moving through every 3 years or so. At its max capacity in the mid 90's the OCU, in its big new building, trained approx X new crews every year. With the equivalent of 5X crews required to fly on the FL and instruct on the OCU and sim, its blindlingly obvious that 90% of the graduates from the OCU were nailed to Kinloss for at least 2 tours.

So, if you know that there is 90% probability you are going to be based at the same place for a minimum of 6 years and the housing market is buoyant and you are able to buy a house, you are not going to rent a married quarter or even a private rental, for that matter. "Illogical"...hogwash. "smacks of complacency"...well, its very easy to use those words from an anonymous keyboard. Come up here to the not "real world", introduce yourself and and say it to real people in a real awful situation that has been imposed on them. You, sir, should be ashamed of what you have written.

Kevin Nurse

Party Animal

5th Sep 2011, 22:02

WW,

Thank you for that clarification and as regards the NI contribution, is it the case then that those about to pick up a pension in 12 months time will only have a tax deduction (PAYE?) from their payslip if they have no other job/income?

Cheers,

PA

Willard Whyte

5th Sep 2011, 22:58

Well, I've seen my late father's teacher's pension payslips. The only deduction was income tax - no sign of NIC. The only caveat would be that they were dated at a time when he was over 80, so well above any mandatory retirement age.

I think it's safe to assume the same for military pensions, unless some of our more venerable members know otherwise..?

parabellum

5th Sep 2011, 23:03

All he said was that he bought a house in Ash Vale, didn't say he lived in it.

Very easy to let a house in the Ash Vale area and still live in MQs in Scotland or where ever.

Lima Juliet

5th Sep 2011, 23:20

Not venerable, but able to add a view on the NI debate. You only pay NI on "earnings" and as a pension is not "earnings" then you don't for your pension - simples! Tax is as Willard has explained very nicely.

The Police Pension (similar to ours) Calculator website is also helpful by stating "Pension income is taxed as earned income but there are no national insurance or company pension scheme deductions" - see here Police Benefits | Police Pension Calculators | Income When You Retire (http://www.policebenefits.co.uk/pension_scheme/pension/)

:ok:

davejb

5th Sep 2011, 23:22

In 23 years of service I spent 21 of them at Kinloss - as NCO aircrew (AEOp) on the Nimrod MPA there was almost no chance of being posted anywhere other than Kinloss unless you actively worked to get onto another platform - several escapees to 51 and the SAR world each year, but a mere drop in the ocean compared to the huge number of siggies who moved between the squadrons, OCU and Ops, with double tours on the flying squadrons quite normal.

Even when St Mawgan was flying MPA it was far from easy to get a posting to 42, I'd be amazed to hear that anyone was posted from Kinloss to St Mawgan who hadn't fought long and hard to arrange it themselves.

For a kipper fleet siggie to buy a house up here was far from a silly move - and why the **** would somebody facing an entire career on one airbase buy a house anywhere else? Buy at the other end of the country, rent it out, and live in a quarter? Quite the most stupid idea I've heard yet...buy in Moray, rent it out if you get posted away, meanwhile settle into your own home where you'll likely still be 20 years later makes rather more sense. At least that way there's some likelihood you'll get to live in the place yourself.

The comment about 'Not somewhere about as far as you can get from "real life".' is just crass frankly.

Kev's right.

Seldomfitforpurpose

5th Sep 2011, 23:27

All he said was that he bought a house in Ash Vale, didn't say he lived in it.

Very easy to let a house in the Ash Vale area and still live in MQs in Scotland or where ever.

He bought a house in Ash Vale whilst stationed at Odiham, do the street map thing :rolleyes:

Now imagine the guy stationed at ISK who also bought a house locally and now try to imagine with all that is going on in that part of the world just how ****in easy it is to rent/sell that property and go live in the south where there is work, **** me readers but stupid is as stupid does really is appropriate here :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Lima Juliet

5th Sep 2011, 23:38

But what are the chances of the house you buy as a 20 year old "Plastic Sgt" being anywhere big enough for 2+2 young children as a 26-30 years old? Come on, do you really believe that you'll be in the same house for 20 years? In any case, with a 25 year mortgage it would be all but paid off...

More likely to be in the same house in your 40s which you bought it in your 30s - and in your 40s you're past the 22 point and now in receipt of an immediate pension. Under AFPS75 a tax-free lump sum, Special Capital Payment for redundancy and a life long (index linked) pension; unless of course, you're one of those that took the gamble for OTT to AFPS05! :eek:

So I don't see why for Kinloss-ites it is any different to anyone else...

LJ :hmm:

Seldomfitforpurpose

6th Sep 2011, 00:19

The more I read in here the more I realise some folk have simply lost the bloody plot when it comes to spotting the blindingly obvious

But what are the chances of the house you buy as a 20 year old "Plastic Sgt" being anywhere big enough for 2+2 young children as a 26-30 years old? Come on, do you really believe that you'll be in the same house for 20 years? In any case, with a 25 year mortgage it would be all but paid off...

Said 20 year old is now 45 and redundant in a part of the world where there is no work. He/she is probably a FS on around 45k a year. What pension rate do you reckon they are on :confused:

More likely to be in the same house in your 40s which you bought it in your 30s - and in your 40s you're past the 22 point and now in receipt of an immediate pension. Under AFPS75 a tax-free lump sum, Special Capital Payment for redundancy and a life long (index linked) pension; unless of course, you're one of those that took the gamble for OTT to AFPS05! :eek:
Same question applies

So I don't see why for Kinloss-ites it is any different to anyone else...
Hence you are daft

LJ :hmm:

The ISK folk are not alone in being stuck in some remote part of the country where there is minimal employment, where the current global economic situation means they are going to get stuffed in the property market when moving to find work and to get any where close to to their previous wage levels they are really going to have to luck in on the job front.

FODPlod

6th Sep 2011, 01:05

WW - Thanks from me too. Something was nagging me after I made my post and you identified it. However, given a pension of £25,000, additional gross earnings of £17,475 are still only £13,695 net of 20% tax (£2,550) and NIC (£1,230) before you enter the 40% tax bracket at £42,475.

If my reckoning below is correct, a salary of £40k on top of a pension of £25,000 will only gain you an additional £23.5k after paying tax and NIC.Gross pension = £25,000
Tax on pension = £3,505
Net pension = £21,495
Gross salary = £40,000
Gross income = £65,000
Tax on gross income = £16,010
NIC on gross salary = £3,933
Total tax and NIC = £19,943
Total net income = £45,057
Total net income above net pension = £23,562 (i.e. take home pay)
I did the same sums for a salary of £50k to see if the results were consistent:Gross pension = £25,000
Tax on pension = £3,505
Net pension = £21,495
Gross salary = £50,000
Gross income = £75,000
Tax on gross income = £20,010
NIC on gross salary = £4,381
Total tax and NIC = £24,391
Total net income = £50,609
Total net income above net pension = £29,114 (i.e. take home pay)
I'm no expert so please feel free to check my sums. Income tax calculator here (http://www.incometaxcalculator.org.uk/). NIC calculator here (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/calcs/nice.htm).

If I'm right, even a salary of £50k will only be worth £29k in your pocket before taking into account all the usual expenses associated with working. It might allow you to maintain your lifestyle but it could be a severe comedown in terms of take-home pay for a full-time job, probably with less paid leave than you've been used to. This is why you shouldn't yield to employers who try to palm you off with less because "you're already on a pension".

Lima Juliet

6th Sep 2011, 01:31

Sffp

Your FS would get £34k tax free SCP, with a tax free gratuity of £36k - making £70k tax free lump sum PLUS a £12k per year pension (£965 per month take home).

Now according to Zoopla the average property price in IV36 is £160k, which after a 10% deposit is £144k -a mortgage for that at 5% is about £840 per month over 25 years.

So the FS could pay off £70k of the mortgage and then reduce the sum to about £430 a month leaving £435 a month to pay everything else. Or pay the mortgage and get £125 change out of the pension and then draw a further £2k per month spending money (tax free) for the next 3 years whilst trying to find a job. Oh, and they could probably use their ELCAS to pay £2,000 per year of tuition fees to retrain over the 3 years.

Come off it pal, that's a ferkin' good deal by anyone's standards who's worked in civvy street.

Daft moi? You must be mistaken...

LJ :cool:

Lima Juliet

6th Sep 2011, 01:44

cazatou

6th Sep 2011, 09:20

Willard Whyte

The current situation with NI contributions for the State Pension is that Men born on or after 6 April 1945 require 30 Qualifying years of contributions for the State Old Age Pension .

Women born on or after 6 April 1950 require 30 Qualifying years.

These statements assume that the information provided by HMG is correct!!

deltahotel

6th Sep 2011, 09:49

And you only pay 40% on the portion above the high rate tax threshold

Seldomfitforpurpose

6th Sep 2011, 11:20

LJ,

So your plan is to buy a cheap property, there is a very good reason why the property is cheap in that part of the world but I guess you know that.

So buy a cheap property and then spend 3 years spending your nest egg whilst looking for a job in an area where the market is awash with unemployed folk all in a similar position due to closures and redundancies :confused:

FODPlod

6th Sep 2011, 11:33

FODPlod

Looking at your numbers for retirement pension then I'm guessing that's for an OF-4. So £25k is about the 23 year point and an OF-4 would be on about £70k at that point. So if one got a £50k job after redundancy, then it would still be better than staying in - £75k before tax but with reduced NI of about £100 per month. Plus you'd have £75k tax free in the bank. But the wise man commutes and that would be £110k tax free and about £70k per year. Plus an OF-4's 9 months pay would take the lump sum to a whopping £160k tax free on redundancy.

Again, I don't see your point either - or am I really that daft as Sffp would have me believe?

My point is that a salary of £50k might well 'gross up' your total income to £75k but if you are still paying Class 'A' NI contributions (£365.09 pcm = £4,381 pa) towards the 30 years of contributions required for a full state pension, you will only benefit £29k on top of your net pension after tax and NIC. If you didn't have a pension, your £50k salary would net you a more respectable £35.5k after tax and NIC. The critical factor is that your pension is already putting you that much closer to the 40% tax threshold before you start earning a penny.

The 'penalty' associated with having a pension is even more apparent with lower salaries. If you lack transferable skills or are in an area with few job opportunities, you may have to settle for a salary of, say, £25k for a 46-week year but you will see little more than £16k benefit on top of your net pension after tax and NIC. If you didn't have a pension, your £25k salary would net you a more respectable £19.5k after tax and NIC. As with any job, you will probably have to pay out for commuting, extra vehicle wear and tear, unsubsidised meals, two-line whip social events, collections, suitable clothing, etc.

All I am saying is beware of settling for less because "you are on a pension." You won't see as much of your salary as you might imagine and no one likes working for peanuts unless it's a labour of love.

Seldomfitforpurpose

6th Sep 2011, 11:46

Fod,

And that presupposes in an area of recent closure and redundancies there are any 25k jobs going :(

cazatou

6th Sep 2011, 12:32

I suppose that there was never any realistic possibility of SFFP going quietly.

Seldomfitforpurpose

6th Sep 2011, 12:49

I suppose that there was never any realistic possibility of SFFP going quietly.

Dear oh dear Caz, you really do have it bad eh:p

As long as I am still in I qualify to post here, you on the other hand as a civvy..................:confused:

PS. Any comment on the Mull outcome :ok:

A and C

6th Sep 2011, 14:53

I find your attitude to others on this forum rather interesting, you opinions have received comment from people who are both in and out of the forces.

You seem to want to find a way of getting rid of anyone who has an opinion that is not in line with yours, I got both barrels of a particularly rude, offensive and untrue rant. Now you return to the line that if you are not in the military you should not post on this forum.

I would think that the most valuable posts on this thread would have been from civilians who had recently left the military, they are the people who know the pitfalls leaving the military.

Your attitude of censorship (if you had your way) would deprive the readership of this forum from useful advice and opinion from those who have gone before and encourage a blinkered view of victimization in those who are about to be made redundant.

There is no doubt that people are moving into civilian life at a tough time but this with skills will find work, after all they leave the forces with a good redundancy deal, it is only those who fail to adapt and adopt a narrow view who will fail to make a living.

MFC_Fly

6th Sep 2011, 15:07

SFFP,

I started this thread in order to commiserate with those that didn't get what they wanted, to congratulate those that did, to express surprise at some of the decisions made and for good advice to be passed by well-wishers.

I did NOT start this thread so that people like you could turn it into a personal attack against other PPRuNe members.

Some of the points you raise are valid, but your personal comments about others that disagree with you are unwarranted - please desist!

MFC

gijoe

6th Sep 2011, 15:26

A serious question to those that volunteered and have received their notification packs:

Q. Is it stated anywhere that you are not entitled to take advantage of Resettlement Commutation if you volunteered and were selected?

If not, I smell a mistake...

G:ok:

Seldomfitforpurpose

6th Sep 2011, 15:54

Now you return to the line that if you are not in the military you should not post on this forum.
Like one or two others on here you miss the elephant in the room. I am not the site owner and I am not a mod but the point I grasp fully is that the site owners and the mods are clearly happy with the status quo as am I, there is a civvy who posts in here who is well over the ten thousand so any notion that civvys are not welcome in here is palinly daft.

If you were a regular in here you would know this thorny little subject comes up every now and again and I thoroughly enjoy poking the wasps nest, so to speak as I know that several posters in here hate the fact that the forum entry rules make no mention of EX anywhere and hate even more the fact that I mention it hence the rudeness, snipes and stalking :ok:

If you think bluntness is rude then it's probably as well you never joined any of the services as calling it as you see it is a daily way of life for those in uniform and it's never done me a days harm in well over 30 years :ok:

Duncan D'Sorderlee

6th Sep 2011, 16:00

gijoe,

All those that received 'letters' on Thursday are being made compulsory redundant; albeit some (just under half) were applicants. I may be wrong, but I think that the timescale to depart is the 'only' thing different.

Duncs:ok:

gijoe

6th Sep 2011, 16:06

Duncs,

Thanks for that - I think this is a typo. Volunteer or no volunteer I can't see how that affects ones entitlement to commute?

The SPVA, bless 'em, are saying that this is a single service issue and all queries about pensions must be directed to the single service.......

G:ok:

BEagle

6th Sep 2011, 16:48

A few other points worth NB'ing:

If you set yourself up as a self-employed consultant, don't forget to put some money into a savings account to pay your tax bill! When you do your first self declaration after leaving the mob, HMRC will bill you for your untaxed income and will also require money in advance for the following year's assessed income. Fine and dandy if you've planned ahead for that, but it can really bite your arse if you haven't!

If your consultancy work doesn't provide a regular income, you could have a good year followed by a bad year - but you will have been pre-assessed for the bad year in advance. Yes, it will all sort itself out in the end, but you could find your pension being taxed at 40%, investment income (if only...) being taxed at the high rate - and yet little income from work. So whatever you do, do NOT commit all your dosh. Keep a prudent combat reserve!

Earn too much and you might find yourself hitting the VAT trigger. While you might wish to register for VAT at a lower income figure, it is mandatory if you hit the trigger value. You WILL need an accountant if that happens.....

Having had some good, some excellent and some lean years, I can assure you that a 'high' income is not always a good thing if you want an easy life. Also, never, never try to be clever with HMRC. They are basically good chaps who will help wherever they can - but lie to them and flag up an attention-getter on their system and you could be the subject of close scrutiny thereafter. There are loads of things which are genuinely allowable against tax, but don't push your luck!

Another tip is to join BUPA while still in the mob. That way you join on a lower rate which continues after you leave. Why join BUPA? Well, your work might depend on your availability and having to wait on an NHS waiting list could seriously damage your work opportunities.

Don't forget dental cover either. Attempting to get on an NHS fang-farrier's list can be almost impossible, so go for Denplan or similar. Private gnasher-bashers have all the latest toys, so for a few quid a month you can have a truly painless service.

Apologies if I've wittered on for longer than that superannuated S1 box-chucker might wish, but when you're no longer on PAYE you really need to be prepared.

A and C

6th Sep 2011, 17:52

Blunt I have no trouble with, what I don't hold with is rude & abusive.

Your comments in my direction have you with both feet the wrong side of the line and just undermine the point that you are trying to make.

I am sure that if you were in the next hanger down the line and there was a chance that some time in the future I could be doing a check ride on you would act in this way. However as you seem to be a crewman with no ambition to move to the front of the aircraft it is unlikely that we will cross paths.

Seldomfitforpurpose

6th Sep 2011, 18:00

A C,

Not clever enough for a front seat, worked that out and fully accepted that years ago :ok:

Thanks Beags my day is now complete :p

camelspyyder

6th Sep 2011, 18:08

Having observed this rubbish for several days, I think you have thrown as many stones as any other here, and frankly a little more sensitivity to fellow aviators who have been made redundant wouldn't go amiss.

Isn't there a playground in JetBlast where you, Caz and SFFP can go and beat each other up?

"Disgusted of Lincoln"

A and C

6th Sep 2011, 19:00

I have been I may have been a little blunt with some on this forum who think that they are getting a raw deal, redundancy is never good but when the big picture is viewed the deal that has been offered to those leaving the forces is far better that anything I have ever seen in civil aviation.

As for the sensitivity bit , I take the more practical view and have waved my fees for flying with those who have been made redundant and are trying to get civilian licences.

Lima Juliet

6th Sep 2011, 19:01

FODPlod

I now get what you're saying - thanks. But at the end of the day if you earn £75k up front or £50k plus £25k pension you'll still be paying similar amounts of tax (save for NI).

LJ

Whenurhappy

6th Sep 2011, 19:26

Beagle,

an excellent, no-nonsense post. I have been in the Services most of my working life and having supervised different contracts over the years, I remain astounded how naive service personnel are about businees in general and 'simple' tax matters in particular. I was fortunate (although it didn't seem so at the time) to be involved in my parents engineering firm in my teens (albeit at Varsity) until I eventually took the Queen's Shilling. This gave me a basic understanding of business practices and basic tax rules (eg usual ability to claim for expenses necessary to go about one's business). As I have posted before, HMRC can be particularly helpful and pragmatic; however if one tries to be too clever, they'll take one to the clearners, and go back to in one's records to the days of £sd, should they wish to.

Your salient points on self-employment and self-assessment are pertinent to several people I know who have left in recent years and set themselves up as consultants, spending up large without considering the enormous bite that HMRC can - and rightly do - deliver. One chap (PA Flt Lt), whom I suspect you crossed paths with over the years, has fled to France in an effort to avoid the tax man.

Luckily, I don't need to worry about declaring income form investments...like most people here!

gijoe

6th Sep 2011, 20:10

...redundancy is never good but when the big picture is viewed the deal that has been offered to those leaving the forces is far better that anything I have ever seen in civil aviation.

AandC,

I don't think anyone who has received the letter this week will argue with you. It is, in the round, generous.

G:ok:

PFMG

7th Sep 2011, 08:33

Rather than comparing the financial package to someone in civilian life which is really rather irrelevant why not dwell a while on the gross unfairness of the selection process.

Aircrew mates who have been decidedly average over the years luck in by being combat ready on a type currently supporting ops whilst some good guys in T&E, training or awaiting their replacement type to come on line are heartlessly binned as providing no useful service to the future of the RAF.

This may be despite 20-30 years service, giving their best to the RAF and doing everything that was asked whilst making key choices like; whether to join AFPS 05, buy a house in the local area, compromise a spouses career etc etc due not unrealistically to an expectation of service until 55 years of age.

Canadian Break

7th Sep 2011, 12:46

BEAGS WURH et al. Last week I spent some time with an accountant discussing the best way of setting oneself up in business - as a defence conultant. His best advice was as a Limited Company; 100 "shares", divided up amongst the great and good i.e family - so in my case 25 each for me, 2 sons and mem sahib. Don't draw a salary but leave money (clearly after expenses) in the company but pay a dividend at regular intervals (i.e 12 months) (I have since come across someone who pays his "shareholders" a monthly dividend with no adverse repercussions from HM C and R). Apparently the tax burden on such dividens is 20% - clearly you need to take into account tax thresholds incurred by pensions etc and distribute the filthy lucre accordingly. This is the giste of it and obviously take professional advice wrt your own circumstances but it could be the way forward for those interested. CB

QTRZulu

7th Sep 2011, 12:46

PFMG,

Couldn't agree more with your post. The way the selection was handled is confusing to say the least especially when you look at some of those who are staying and some of those who are going?? Don't get me wrong, there are good guys/gals on both sides, but when you have a system that rewards mediocrity just for being in the right place at the right time then its time to go. Kinloss took an absolute pasting compared to some stations I could mention and as has already been said elsewhere in these forums, the RAF/MoD will not realise what they've lost until its too late!

I know plenty at ISK that got their marching orders who would have thrived in any post in places like Waddo, Northwood etc. That said, the fact that they are 'clever' people, many could see the writing on the wall and in the main are happy to be going - perhaps not in the circumstances or manner in which they are going, but still happy to be going nonetheless.

As for what's left when the dust settles - as I said some good, some bad, some average but all the very best to them - they are going to need it!

Personally, I'm happy to be getting out now. Is the grass greener, that I don't know yet but I'm pretty sure I won't regret the decisions I've made.

Windrush21

7th Sep 2011, 13:02

From an occasional observer I echo the original thrust of the tread and wish good luck to all those involved (this time around) whether or not from choice. Serious commiserations for the apparent injustice and lack of logic involving some of the non-volunteers. Been out 5 years now and tried to reinvent myself outside aviation after 10 years on Kipper fleet and 25 years on AT/AAR in various guises, it’s not easy but potentially more sustainable in the long run. In these times, employers want a full day’s work (and more) for what would seem a small return. You may be surprised to learn how good you really are in the job market and how much your background and training gives you greater value to potential employers. Don’t sell yourself short but be prepared to start low and move up on your own merits. I feel you deserve better but it’s not like that so best of luck to you all whether you are on your way now or later.

cazatou

7th Sep 2011, 14:15

camelspyyder

May I Inquire exactly when you became a Moderator?

camelspyyder

7th Sep 2011, 14:57

Not a Mod (prefer rock and proper bikes to be honest) - In fact I'm just another occasionally pompous windbag on pprune:ok:

I am though a member of the aircrew trade that got the biggest kicking in tranche 1 and I have waited since October last year and the MRA4 cancellation under threat of the chop myself.

I may just a little too sensitive about this issue.

CS

Could be the last?

19th Oct 2011, 17:44

I've heard that Tranche 2 numbers & trades etc will be released in Jan 12, anyone heard anything?

As I will move into the frame for the big R, can anyone confirm exactly how you get an official forecast on the payout? ( A forecast that allows you to plan, and is accountable)

I have contacted SPVA #7 - 'you need to speak with your HR Redundancy Focal Point'. Focal Point not really interested and refers to the online calculator and the Armed Forces Pension Society. However, the calculator states that it is not the definitive! So who is responsible for giving me an accurate payout figure, if I am made redundant? I'm afraid I can't leave it to chance as the Black and Yellow is calling..........

downsizer

19th Oct 2011, 17:56

AMP briefing team dishing out the Jan 12 line also....

zedder

19th Oct 2011, 18:14

That is a very good question as to how you can get an accurate forecast of what you might get should you be made redundant. I have already been made redundant and am struggling get a forecast that gives me a figure that I can calculate myself.

This because the forecast is based on Final Relevent Earnings:

Inflation adjustments in determining final relevant earnings

7.—(1) For the purpose of determining a person’s final relevant earnings under article 6, the amount of relevant earnings, as determined in accordance with article 6, for that part of the period of 365 days that falls 365 days or more before the last day of service is adjusted for inflation.

(2) If the member’s final relevant earnings are determined in accordance with paragraph (1) to be an amount for any period in relation to which any adjustment for inflation has been made under this article, then, except as provided in article 11(2) and (3), the member’s final relevant earnings are to be taken for all purposes to be the amount so determined after that adjustment.

(3) The reference in paragraph (1) to adjusting for inflation the amount of relevant earnings for part of a period is a reference to increasing it by the same amount as that by which an annual pension of an amount equal to those earnings would have been increased under the Pensions (Increase) Act 1971(a) on the day following the last day of relevant service if the pension—
(a) were eligible to be so increased, and
(b) had come into payment on the day following the last day of that period.

My figure I received in my redundancy notification appears to be based on the pay I received from 1 Apr 10 to 31 Mar 11 increased by CPI of 3.1%. Given that CPI has just been announced as 5.2% (the figure that will be used for pension purposes in FY12/13), my exit date is 31 Aug 12 and that I received a PA Increment on 25 Mar 11, I believe the way SPVA has calculated my FRE is incorrect. I suspect I will end up going via the Forces Pension Society to check my figures and if need be do battle with SPVA.

Willard Whyte

19th Oct 2011, 22:02

Word is that the online redundancy calculator is pretty damn accurate, more so than than the written statement that came with the sacking letter. T'was what I was told anyway.

MoD Redundancy Calculator (http://www.mod-rc.co.uk/)

zedder

20th Oct 2011, 08:56

Except in the Help Station on the right-hand side it states:

Final Pensionable Salary

Your final pensionable earnings are the greatest amount of pensionable earnings that has been earned in 365 consecutive days falling within the last three years. This calculator does not take this into account and assumes your final pensionable pay is the pay level you have input. See JSP 764, Part 1, para 0305 for more detail.

5 Forward 6 Back

20th Oct 2011, 09:11

Zedder,

Hardly a show-stopper; just put the increment you were last year as opposed to the increment you are this year!

SAMXXV

20th Oct 2011, 09:18

Here's a little snippet hidden away in today's Daily Mail:
Pension pots being 'silently stolen' as inflation leaps to 5.2% | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2051185/Pension-pots-silently-stolen-inflation-leaps-5-2.html)

Read the article carefully. Note that come April 5th 2012 your Index Linked Pension (55 or over) should get the automatically capped 5% increase (before tax). Yet this Government is now frightened by the cost to the Exchequer & may now be craftily plotting to reduce that 5% cap on Public Pension Increases.

They are playing with dynamite here & a good indicator of how this will go down will be the Commons debate on Monday 24th with regard to an EU Referendum........:D

zedder

6th Feb 2012, 19:22

I have had some enlightening correspondence with both SPVA and the Forces Pension Society (FPS). Even after the Sep 11 CPI figure (due to be used in FY12/13) was announced in Oct 11, SPVA confirmed to me that it would not be worth getting another Pension Forecast until Apr 12. The reason for this is explained in the following info from the FPS:

I suspect the reason why the 5.2% has not been used in your forecast is that it is not effective until 9th April 2012 and SPVA will not use 'potential' rates, only rates in place on the date the forecast was made.

FPS also confirmed the information reference Final Relevant Earnings (FRE) in my previous post. Note that FRE only applies to those on AFPS05.

For those thinking of volunteering for Tranche 2, given the recent pay freeze the 'Dynamising' effect of FRE will be of a similar benefit to you as it is to those of us who were Tranche 1 Compulsory redundees. As the FPS explained it for my circumstances:

Both CPI figures will feature in your pension award calculations. For days of salary paid between 31st August 2009 and 30th August 2010 the increase will be both the 3.1% and 5.2% compound (i.e. 8.4612%). For days of salary paid between 31st August 2010 and 30th August 2011 the increase will be by 5.2%.

So if you are Tranche 2 volunteer, who will presumably exit on 12 Dec 12, if your pay has been static for the last couple of years, your salary will be increased in a similar manner to the example in quotes above. The FRE that is calculated, which drives both your Compensation Lump Sum and your pension, should hopefully give you a pleasant surprise!

Anyone on AFPS05 who is thinking of PVRing could also benefit from the same 'Dynamising' effect on your pension.

Could be the last?

6th Feb 2012, 21:13

Heard a rumour.......

Can you still apply for redundancy if your branch does not figure within the DiN?

Willard Whyte

6th Feb 2012, 21:29

Note that FRE only applies to those on AFPS05.Hence the difference twixt what thee and me were informed.

I'm AFPS10, the 365 consecutive doesn't apply, according to the financial brief I went to t'other week anyhoo.

The chap did say that there were significant problems with the '05 calculator.

zedder

7th Feb 2012, 07:11

Willard,
I assume you mean you are covered by AFRS 10 being a member of AFPS75?

There are 2 redundancy schemes for personnel leaving the Service under this redundancy programme as follows:

a. The Armed Forces Redundancy Scheme 2006 (AFRS 06) for AFPS 05 members.
b. The Armed Forces Redundancy Scheme 10 (AFRS 10) for AFPS 75 members.

Willard Whyte

7th Feb 2012, 09:23

Quite possibly; @ 22:29 I would have been some way down the second bottle of Cab Sauv.

Sarah H

11th Feb 2012, 12:05

Hello,

I'm a member of Labour Friends of the Forces, an organisation campaigning on behalf of the Forces community. We are currently running a consultation on the resettlement process and how it could be improved and will publish a report with recommended changes which we hope the Government will take into consideration. You can read more about it here:Resettlement consultation | Labour Friends of the Forces (http://labourfriendsoftheforces.org.uk/resettlement-consultation/). Please let me know what you think.

It would be a big help if as many service men and women who have gone through the resettlement process took part or even just left a comment about their experiences.

Thanks,

Sarah B

BEagle

11th Feb 2012, 17:35

Sarah H (or Sarah B ?)

The best thing Labour, or rather the utterly despicable nuLabor, could do to prove that it might actually be a 'Friend of the Forces' would be to insist that the lying little toad Bliar faced up to his responsiblities for involving our Armed Forces in illegal wars at the behest of Gee Dubya Bush.

Then explain why you blew the entire defence budget without ensuring sustainability.

The present government has been driven to take unprecedented action to recover from the profligate spending of Bliar and Incapability Brown - why anyone would ever trust anything Labour promised in opposition would be a mystery to me.

nuLabor ruined this country - suggest you take that message back to the Millibenders.

Sorry to 'shoot the messenger', but More Labour = More Lies.

November4

11th Feb 2012, 18:45

BEagle

:D:D

Always a Sapper

11th Feb 2012, 18:51

BEagle, I couldn't agree with you more. IMHO from past history Labour are only interested in the matter because they see it as a potential club with which to beat the Govt.

Sadly, I don't think we can ever deny that Labour make a much better opposition than the Conservatives ever did as Labour spend their whole time sniping at absolutely everything that the Government do whereas the Conservatives seemed to ignore daily opportunities to put the Labour Governments of Blair and Brown firmly into the cesspit that they so rightly belonged.

Still, enough of this labour luvfest 'thing' and back to the important subject of the thread and our soon to be/recently parted colleagues, all of whom I wish for only the best and hope that they have good luck in whatever they choose to do on leaving HM's security firm.