BO 105CBS-4

[Sedg]

I am considering purchasing/leasing a BO 105CBS-4 to create a niche market for golf resorts (northeast US). Any advice/experience, possibly with other aircraft, for transporting full sets of clubs plus pax without the pax having to sit on their clubs? (and not have to use a cabin class helicopter in order to keep the cost down)

[inputshaft]

This is a purely subjective view. If you're selling that kind of service to the type of people who can afford it, you're going to want to present some level of "perceived luxury". I'm a huge fan of the Bo105 as a pilot, but I can't think of any light helicopter that would come across worse to the average Joe Public. Most are pretty battered; all are vibratory and slow.

I suspect others will be along quickly to comment on running costs compared to a Longranger and the like. Possibly you're attracted by the large cargo area, but there must be other options (cargo pods) to allow you to do the job cheaper and more comfortably with a 206 or 350.

[Sedg]

Thanks, Inputshaft...I appreciate your opinion as I don't have any experience as yet in the 105...I DO have plenty in the Bell & Eurocopter but have not found a good solution to carrying 4 bags & 4 pax at the same time without someone having to sit on top of bags or stuffed underfoot (I'm sure the FAA would love to see THAT, eh?) Having to strap ANY bags in the passenger area is a risk as far as I'm concerned...but you see it time & time again.

Is the BO 105 that slow & does it really vibrate that much to make a 45 minute flight uncomfortable?

[griffothefog]

She cruises around 110 kts and the vibration everyone tags her with is during the transition to the hover through TL. It is pretty bad and would probably be enough to scare a few people :eek:

Regardless of the enormous amount of room in the boot (probably all of 12 sets of clubs) there is sod all room in the back and even with a VIP fit, the 3 pax would be a bit squished, but no doubt the pax in the front would be mesmerised by all those switches and circuit breakers!

The best pilots ship I have flown for tight manouvers and built like a tank, but probably not what you are looking for in your application :ok:

[Sedg]

I don't understand, tho...why were they used so extensively (and still do) for EMS if the vibration is enough to scare pax?...and I've seen the VIP config and with only 3 seats in the back they appear to have plenty of room. If not the 105...what would you recommend?

[krypton_john]

Loads of room for pax and golf bags in a 350 with cheeks, cheaper to run, faster, roomier, sexier than a Bo105. It's a no-brainer.

[Sedg]

Thanks, John!

Yes, the 350 WOULD be sexier...although the cost of a 105 these days is pretty affordable (about the same as an entry level JetRanger) and the DOC is lower than TwinStar.

So you're telling me that you can fit 4 full sets of golf bags (I'm assuming 2 on each side)? Any links for finding 'cheeks'? One doesn't often see them here in the U.S.

[krypton_john]

Hi,

Yeah, you can pick up a Bo105 for a song, it runs RR250's, it's military grade hardware, and more or less aerobatic!

As for the AS350 baggage extenders: here's one supplier:

Spacepod (http://www.darthelicopterservices.com/shop/default/helicopter-accessories/oem-sections/eurocopter/as350-as355/cargo-expansion/spacepodtm-fwd-opening-lh-as-350.html)

[MLHeliwrench]

Spacepod (http://www.darthelicopterservices.com/shop/default/helicopter-accessories/oem-sections/eurocopter/as350-as355/cargo-expansion/spacepodtm-upward-opening-rh-as-350-as-355.html)

http://www.darthelicopterservices.com/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/D/3/D350-600-142_01.jpg

[Aussierob]

Another option might be a utility basket. We use them for skis and back packs, but the larger sizes would get a few sets of clubs in easily.

Quick Release Heli-Utility-Basket (http://www.darthelicopterservices.com/shop/default/helicopter-accessories/oem-sections/eurocopter/as350-as355/cargo-expansion/quick-release-heli-utility-baskettm-squirrel-cheek-compatible-fits-lh-or-rh.html)

[griffothefog]

sedg,

The vibration with the donkey bollocks fitted is not too bad and besides, sick pax don't really mind do they? :ok:

[Pandalet]

The Bo105 is lovely to fly, and you'll have no trouble fitting 4 sets of clubs in, but you may need to put some effort into sprucing one up. They tend to have been used for utility or HEMS, and thus the ones on the market, particularly at the cheaper end, tend to be pretty battered. Having said that, there are a few around which are rather nicely tricked out.

In my limited experience (on a male aircraft), the vibration really wasn't a problem. They are slower than more modern options, but if you're not going to be sitting in it for hours and hours on end, they're not too uncomfortable.

[Sedg]

Thanks, guys, for the suggestions, references, pics and links. There is a lot to think about and consider here.

Griffothefog, I get the hint that you're not a fan of the BO 105. Sorry to hear that. As sexy as the 350 may be and despite the vibration (the amount which is still being disputed), I still can't help but feel that when it comes to being able to take 4 pax plus overnight bags plus clubs/skis/whatever...the 105 is the better machine.

As long as the interior is fitted accordingly, the price difference between getting a 350 with cheeks (which means for the most part, getting a 350 and paying additional to get it retrofitted with cheeks and repainted again) or getting a 105 with a new paint scheme and a fresh annual for $350k may be a better choice.

I will need more convincing to go with the AS350 until I can hit the lottery.

[krypton_john]

Well, your $500k saving on the 105 vs 350 purchase should pay for your maintenance bill for a few years, and you get twin time.

[FH1100 Pilot]

That a Bolkow vibrates coming back through ETL is undisputed. Depending on how long you spend in that regime, the vibration can be very pronounced and is disconcerting to the pax. Experienced 105 pilots have ways of minimizing that transition zone, but some LZ's just guarantee that you're going to spend a lot of time in it.

The real problem (as I see it) with the 105 is the cabin attitude in cruise flight. Every one I flew (and I flew a bunch of them) cruised at about 10 degrees(!) nose-down at 120 knots. You can lessen that by reducing speed; the cabin is nice and level at 100-110 knots, but who really wants to fly that slow? For passengers, a 45-minute ride in the back seat of a Bolkow at 120 knots is an uncomfortable experience. Add a little turbulence (Bolkows are bad in turbulence) and you'll be cleaning up puke.

There are things that the Bolkow does well. Being a plush limo is not one of them. It sure can carry a load though!

[Sedg]

FH110Pilot...you give a good argument against the 105...since I have no time in them to go by I have to go by those with the experience...and the last thing i want to do it be cleaning up after pax. I'm assuming that even with a load in the back the attitude is nose down...or does that level it out a bit?

Anyone have a good source for leasing an AS350 with cheeks?

[FH1100 Pilot]

Due to the design of the 105's hingeless (sometimes called "rigid") rotor, pax/cargo loading has little/no effect on nose attitude in flight.

If you want to know how crappy a 105 flies, just take a look at the BK-117. A little bit bigger but basically the same rotor system as the 105. Specifically, look at the size of the endplates on the horizontal stabilizer on the 117- they're huge! They dwarf the diminutive, girly endplates that the 105 has. And on the 117 they're not that size simply because the designers thought they looked good.

I love the 105, have a lot of time in it. But it would not be my first choice for what you're trying to do.

[Sedg]

We'll, I asked for it. Thank you for your input. I value what you all have to say and so my next move is to locate a good source to lease an AS 350 with cheeks to start with ( or lease to purchase)...any recommendations?